People who want to take guns away from citizens often argue that it’s dangerous for citizens to have guns. They will say, “innocent people will get shot in the crossfire” in the event an armed civilian uses a gun to stop an armed criminal.
I wonder what they’ll say about what just happened in NYC?
According to reports, a laid-off women’s clothing designer named Jeffrey Johnson, 58, decided to shoot his ex-boss. He pulled out a .45 pistol and did so – and was himself almost immediately gunned down by a gaggle of city cops. Problem is, the cops ending up shooting more people than the gunman. Eight people were shot – by the cops. 
(news story here.)
Will the people who demand citizens be disarmed because “innocent people might get caught in the crossfire” now demand that cops be disarmed, for the same reason?
If not – why?
Will the “reckless” cops – who clearly can’t shoot straight – be held civilly and criminally responsible for shooting innocent bystanders – as a citizen surely would be?
If not, why?
Don’t forget that cops – as a matter of law – are under no obligation to protect any individual from harm. They are law enforcers – not protectors.
Protection – of our individual persons – is ultimately up to us.
Provided, of course, we are permitted to do so. And provided, of course, that we aren’t caught in a cop crossfire.
Brent,
I understand what you are saying, but you still don’t understand what takes place in a situation such as what happened. I’m not defending the actions of this particular incident. I’m saying it’s a really tough job and it would be great if everyone could take a few hours to analyze these situations before acting, but that is never going to happen. Police have to make decisions in a heartbeat. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, and then they have to put up with crap like what is written above. There is no good answer for what will prevent this. Again, people that do that job can be excellent at it, or bad at it. These police apparantly are bad at it. This is one incident that day of the hundreds of incidents that took place throughout the nation on that same day. This one turned out poorly. The majority turned out good. Panic happens to all of us and our actions during the time of duress cannot be planned exactly as we like it. Hope no one is watching tv and thinking that is real life where they all are excellent shots, smarter than the entire world, and everything always falls into place. It just don’t happen that way.
Hi Ray,
It seems you’re not getting the point.
It’s not about giving cops the benefit of the doubt. It’s that we – not-cops – are held to a higher standard of accountability. Which is bizarre, if you think about it – in addition to being really unfair. After all, cops are “professionals” who choose to place themselves in harm’s way. They are – allegedly – trained to exercise more careful judgment, especially as regards the use of force. Yet when they use force excessively or irresponsibly, what typically happens?
They are given the benefit of every doubt. They are not typically arrested/charged criminally.
We mundanes are.
This grates.
Had I, as a lawful CC permit holder, shot the guy in NY and not shot/hit anyone else, I’d have been charged with multiple felonies – notwithstanding that I’d harmed not one innocent person. And possibly “saved lives.”
I’d lose probably everything I had trying to defend myself in court against ruinous charges. Even if I beat the charges, I’d still lose a fortune – perhaps my entire life’s savings – defending myself.
Contrast this with the NYC event. Those cops were given special dispensation to carry guns and use deadly force. When they used it in such a way as to cause injury to numerous innocent bystanders, what happened? Were any arrested? Charged? Will any of them even lose a few days’ pay?
You know the answer as well as I.
A cop can abuse, assault – even murder a Mundane with a much lower chance of being held accountable in the same way a Mundane would be for having done exactly the same things.
This is infuriating. If anything, a cop should be held much more severely accountable for any abuse of his authority; for any reckless or abusive action. Yet they are manifestly not held more accountable. Rather, the opposite.
Do you see?
Ray,
If I screw up, just once, will the cops, will the media, will the man on the street be as understanding and forgiving as you are for these cops?
Let’s say I screw up at my job, to keep this work related. I make a bad design. It doesn’t meet present safety standards and someone severely injures himself. There’s a lawsuit. He proves his case. Do I get to keep my job because of the other thousands of times I didn’t screw up or the millions of times other engineers didn’t screw up?
Let’s talk criminal. If a group of individuals who were not cops drew their weapons on this same perp with the same results would there be this great understanding of the situation? Would the uncountable number of times responsible gun owners thwarted crime or caught the bad guy successfully and to the book be accepted that this was just an outlier, a mere screw up, the one time out of thousands things went bad?
This forgiveness and understanding you articulate doesn’t exist for non-cops. It doesn’t exist for those of us in the private sector. We lose our jobs. We go to prison. Just one screw up is all it takes to erase decades of good work.
Furthermore, do you think a cop is going to look the other way because one of us mundanes made a split second bad decision on something of even half the magnitude of this incident? Sure maybe for 10 over a speed limit set 20mph too low to begin with… but something getting to be more like this incident?
You probably shouldn’t bet your life that cops would.
Yeah those NY cops pull the trigger early & often. AND they have their own special Glock with a “NY” trigger. It’s like 9lbs instead of 5 for a regular Glock so they don’t go off without deliberation, but the heavy pull means they are also less accurate.
You people are just people. Doctors are just people. Farmers are just people. In all professions you will find that a certain percent are just not able to perform. Most of you in the same situation would pee down your legs and soil your underwear. You have no idea what they put up with on a daily basis. Yes, what happened was not supposed to. Just think, if one of you were in charge, it could have even been worse. Hindsight, Monday morning quarterbacking is a blessing for those of you who sit in your chair and chastise everyone else for doing the wrong thing. It is a tragedy that so many people were injured. Hopefully this will change things and make things better. The police are well aware of the problems in that type of confrontation, but it’s impossible to tell what anyone will do until they are confronted with that problem. I guarantee you that those involved feel horrible about what their actions caused. You self rightous jerks need a wakeup call and start living in the real world.
Ray, would you have such compassion if a mere mundane, a regular person, pulled out a hand gun and started shooting at the perp and missed the target? Would not there be all sorts of Monday-morning QB action? Would the non-cop not be facing charges?
But where would such things be? On obscure websites or as part of the news cycle on the major networks and in the major papers? Wouldn’t the NYTimes and others have articles on how CC would have to be curtailed or guns banned in the light of ‘vigilante’ action?
That’s the point here. The double standard. The so-called professionals that are to be the only ones trusted with firearms because of their employment status with government screwed up in exactly the way every gun scaremonger says ordinary people would screw up. But there is no consequences to them for their screw up. In fact what we get is ‘understanding’ for them when there would be calls for ‘justice’ if a private individual had taken action with even remotely similar results. And by remotely I mean a missed shot causing nothing more than property damage.
It’s a huge double standard. So when someone who is not a cop is confronted with the same situation in the real world he won’t have the luxury of his mistake being justified or understanding of his feelings or anything of the sort. His life will be ruined, for taking the same actions with the same intent. Why? Because he doesn’t have state license and nothing more.
What I find remarkable is that not a single poster here evidently picked up on the fact that these supposed professional LEOs had never, in 15 years of duty, discharged their weapon while on duty.
While that is commendable, it would also reduce their ability to respond to a situation like this.
At a minimum, police officers should have to go through live fire drills on a monthly basis in addition to simple target shooting.
A friend of mine from Canada had a layover in my city while traveling and since he was in Texas and had never fired a weapon we went to a local firing range. Range owner let us use a 9mm to shoot a box of shells. Between the friend, who had never fired a pistol or even held one in his hand, and myself, who hadn’t fired a pistol in 10 years, the score for fifty rounds totaled by the range owner was better than more than half of the officers who regularly used the range for practice.
That’s just sad.
I see this all the time at the indoor range I go when the weather’s foul. You can pick out the cops’ targets almost every time–big broad groups low and left, a hefty dose of anticipation-flinch in every shot.
My 5’2” wife with little bird wrists scores better than that with a big H&K .45…and she’s deadly with her Glock .40
In a collapse, the cops will do just what they did during Katrina–abandon post to loot, or stay on-post…and loot. At this point, most of them are more criminal-minded than the sheeple they lord it over.
Amen Meth,
While I am a fan of the 1911 colt commander, I can understand the reasoning of a lady using a 40 cal. I hope you and your better half are able to spend more enjoyable days doing the bad guys down range. Sure hope it doesn’t escalate to doing the bad guys on the home range.
Hi Draxx,
Right you are. Ironic, is it not, that professional cops are entrusted with life or death implements and authority – yet held to a much lower standard than we are?
PS: I inadvertently deleted your membership because your “[email protected]” seemed like a spam ID. We get a sea of these spammers every day and sometimes, a real “new member” gets flushed with all the fake ones. Please sign up again!
Don’t feel bad, I get nailed by spam blockers of legit businesses that I communicate with. lol I tried to make the emails for the company into something legitimate looking but the boss said no.
Thanks for your understanding, Draxx – you’re in now!
Hello All,
I’ve read all of your comments and feel I need to say something. I’m reserving some of my comments until all of the facts are in. What I have read is that some bystanders were actually struck by police bullets while others were hit by fragmenting police bullets that hit hard objects. Once all of the forensics are in we’ll know.
I’m a retired police officer with several gunfights under my belt. I can only give you my point of view so the value of that is for you to decide. I’ve read several ill informed comments such as the police would have been justified in simply shooting him and this would have saved unecessary rounds being fired. Police cannot simply shoot a felon. There must be an imminent threat that is presented to the officers or an innocent person. A murderer walking away with his gun holstered is not a threat at that moment, notice I said “moment” in a gunfight things change in microseconds. The officers had to call out to him and demand he stop and surrender. This man chose not to and stopped, drew his gun and the officers reacted. The officers fired multiple rounds while moving and some hit innocent people. That is horrible and a terrible trauma for a person that moments before was just minding their own business.
From what I can read here the officers marksmanship and the likelyhood of them being held accountable is the main topic. I can only say that having been there, anyone who hasn’t, has no credibility criticizing the officers marksmanship skills. Going to the range or attending tactical shooting courses can’t compare to real combat with a handgun which in my opinion is even different than combat with a long gun. Having done both I think I speak with some knowledge. Unless you’ve done it you can’t imagine the fear, involuntary physical reactions, and how it all unfolds. Some have commented on the number of rounds fired and that so many were unecessary. When you are shooting to save your life or someone elses you fire until the threat stops. If that takes 2 shots or 20 that is what you do. That is law enforcement doctrine. Maybe some forum members don’t like the doctrine but it is what it is. Think how quickly you can discharge 12 or 14 rounds? In literal seconds. Are you counting and thinking O.K. that’s five that should do it? Others have commented on the officers shooting while moving. It is only sensible to move when a threat has you targeted. It’s called getting off the X. If someone was shooting at you would you feel more comfortable standing still and being a stable, stationary target for them or moving and making their job more difficult?
Please consider these facts before you comment. I you haven’t been there you don’t know. I’d like to hear from actual combat veterans in the military and police to comment. I’m open to their comments and discussion and forum members opinion. I’m willing to consider what you say and that I may be wrong. I’m sincerely sorry for the innocent people injured and I’m happy the injuries appear to be minor.
Thanks,
Carl
Restraint.
They behaved like hysterical teenagers.
Your justifications that it’s a “combat” situation fall on deaf ears; it is their job, and supposedly one they train for. I’d forgive a non-cop much more readily for such an overreaction.
These over-beaten phrases “officer safety” and “life-and-death” allow cops to exaggerate the danger they’re in. Moreover, it’s danger they’ve chosen to be in.
If they’re going to lose bowel and trigger control in a dangerous situation…they’ve chosen the wrong job.
“…you fire until the threat stops”–that’s an invitation to this kind of hysteria.
“… the doctrine but it is what it is”–no, it’s not. It’s a self-serving mantra that’s self-reinforced in a tight, vicious circle resulting in today’s over-hyped, trigger-happy and aggressive policing.
No more “peace officers”; now they’re “LEO’s”.
I believe a lot of cops possess the “hall monitor” trait. This gives them the ability to escalate a situation from 0 to 60 as quick as lightning.
Carl,
Are you here for a goonberment thug pity party?
I noticed that grandpa in Ocala, fl stopped a robbery in an internet cafe had no problem stopping it. Oh WOW and no one else in the cafe got shot but the thugs.
What about the 65 year old Grandma in California that ran 5 goons out of her jewelry shop? All i heard from that was people have to be careful about who is downrange. yet she shot only the thugs.
Carl, you and your ilk sicken me. don’t try to play the stress card either. as far as dangerous jobs go, a thug in the pay of the powers that be are way down on the list. I pray to god that changes. But i know it will not and why? because most people fear the killers of the state.
Of course, it is a legitimate fear. look at what the killers of Germany’s, Russia’s and China’s states did. I bet you are about to spew but but but it can’t happen here. Guess what? It is right now.
As far as I can see more thugs labeled cops die from trying to hide their corruption, i.e. stress from the state.
BTW Carl,
I’m viet nam ex mil, i bet i have more firefights under my belt than you. yet i’d never ever shoot where civies were involved. I never have and never will accept collateral damage as an excuse for reckless assault or murder.
Hi Carl,
I’ve not been in combat (or even a shooting) but perhaps I can shed some light on the outrage.
It’s not the shooting, per se. It’s the glaring double standard that gives cops free reign to use physical force – including lethal force – then be held to a much lower standard of accountability, if they are held accountable at all.
As others have pointed out, had a civilian – legally armed, with a CC permit – caused injuries to multiple bystanders in an identical scenario, it is a certainty that individual would not only face ruinous personal injury lawsuits, he would be pursued criminally. The NYC cops, meanwhile, will be shielded. If they are sued, they will be represented by lawyers not paid for by themselves. The city will provide them. And any damages will not come out of their bank accounts, but rather, be paid by the city (that is, by taxpayers). The cops are in no danger of losing everything they have – or even their jobs. They certainly will not face reckless endangerment/brandishing charges – as a civilian would. And yet, the cops are alleged to be professionals – trained (supposedly) to be capable of exercising judgment and judicious use of force. If anything, cops should be held to a higher standard than civilians, yet the fact is they’re held to a lower one, in terms of consequences for their actions.
This really irritates us mundanes.
PS: Check this out –
http://www.copblock.org/20057/75-year-old-grandmother-held-down-at-gunpoint-on-bathroom-floor-by-wayne-county-ny-sheriffs-deputies-and-macedon-ny-police-as-they-shoot-and-kill-her-dog/
Also a single CC permit holder acting with bad judgment would be used to say nobody should be able to carry. The only reason CC has spread so far is because the record of private parties carrying firearms under such laws is practically spotless. Applying the same standards to cops would result in all cops being disarmed.
The cops responding to this shooting incident are probably similar to the cops in most jurisdictions, TOO FAT TO SQUAT ON ONE KNEE SO THEY COULD AT LEAST HAVE A CHANCE TO SHOOT STRAIGHT
How can a culture so steeped in violence throughout its history
not have these incidents occur? In fact, according to Robert
Prechter’s Socionomics theory unconscious mass thinking and
mood is the cause of these cycles of violence, economic malaise, and wars. His point is well taken and quite well supported by any careful research into historical cycles not just here in this country but worldwide as well! It appears that the primitive brain and the herd instinct still hold sway over rational thought in this ‘modern’ society.
EDT
Chicago, Illinois
Google Glock and New York City Police trigger pull. You will find that NYPD requires twice the effort to pull the trigger, making it more difficult to stay on target. Add that to their lack of concern and poor training.
WTF is wrong with these people?
I like the idea of light pull weight – and I’ve only DRY-fired. (Still working out the license details to test and shoot, and buy).
I felt that myself – and when I grab people, I leave marks. What about someone who HASN’T been training for decades with heavy weights? What about a 140-pound woman, trying to keep a steady arm extension?
If I were a cop, I think I’d have two guns – one, for “testing”, and one I could actually shoot with, that DOESN’T wiggle all over when trying to shoot. (Testing means, in this case, that someone will probably want PROOF the office used a cop-proper gun. As long as he can hand them one that looks right… And still SHOOT straight with the other? Hey, THAT is a tradeoff I think MOST people would accept. Of course, NOT hitting the innocent backstop-peons is probably a firing offense in and of itself! How do you rule by fear, if the cops can actually hit the target instead of the bystandards*? *: Not a typo.)
Eric, your article brought back this memorable incident, as a DEA agent lectures a class full of kids on gun safety. The circus starts at around 0:49 in this clip–
Like the agent said, he is the only one trained to handle dangerous guns, just by virtue of a special uniform!
Unreal! Holy smokes! Got me looking at other videos and this one happened close to home.
Holy cow! That woman was murdered and I’d tell the “witness” to be extra careful. I wonder what the dash cam for the cop says. Probably a technical glitch or some such rot gut excuse will surface. What really got my goat was what the reporter said near the end… that the cops and county sheriff dept assisting state police in the “investigation”. Yeah, I bet they’re assisting to find a way to spin their way out of it.
When I consider how trigger-happy cops are I’m always reminded of an “incident” in my former home town where the local goon squad had cornered some perp at a car lot and then they opened up with automatic rifles and proceeded to fill numerous automobiles full of holes. I’m not certain if they ever hit the guy they were aiming at but they did “kill” several cars. All to the taxpayers chagrin.
All they have to do is claim the civilians were “collateral damage”, and the whole thing will blow over in a heart beat. Afghanistan comes home.
The story will be spun about how the cops’ had a difficult home life and were “under stress”. They’ll probably counter sue, with the ever eager help of their union, and demand compensation for “mental anguish”
News today _BBC_ All collateral damage due to police weapons.
Its amazing to see that cops had to shoot 16 times to kill this guy! I’ve only fired a gun a few times and it wasn’t really all that easy, but I would expect most cops to be pretty efficient shooting their guns as they are SUPPOSED to know how to shoot!
Don’t be surprised. They’re incredibly incompetent–keep in mind,, these are State employees, so expect the same level of diligence and ability as from the Postal Service.
Statistically, cops miss 80% of shots.
Maybe they do need several hundred thousand rounds for target practice after all.
@BrentP, they would tell you that they need unmanned drones. Seems to do the job in Pakistan– especially when that job requires the killing of non-combatants! Wedding parties, unauthorized demonstrations and talkative whistleblowers can all be removed with ONE APPLICATION! Better than the Shamwow…
Law Enforcement personel assigned to a speciality tactical unit qualify against a paper target whenever their Department requires it. In a real life situation they will be about half as good as their worst day at the range. A lot of firearm owners practice more often and against a variety of targets and situations. How you train in peace is how you will respond in “war”.
The above should read Law Enforcement personel NOT assigned to a specialty tactical unit…..
Here’s a video of a cop that crossed my path the other day. We were in a line of cars with a clover leading the way going slower than shit. First chance, the lady behind the clover went to pass (in a passing zone) and sure as shit as soon as she did… a fucking cop! I had no choice but to pull over and tell the cop what I thought about it.
Basically I told him I see this shit every fucking day! You guys NEVER pull or ticket the asshole causing the obstruction. You ALWAYS get the assertive people. It’s obnoxious and I sick of it. CLOWNS…
Oh, by the way John. Do you remember that day we got pulled over in my El Camino doing 140mph and we had to pull over and wait a minute for the cop to catch up? LMAO GOOD TIMES BRO!
I’ll use someone else’s words to make my point:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
Aye Men Brother
Check out the Declarations of Resolve circa 1774. The previous year to the DoI the people got together and made a detailed list of their complaints. If you reat it you can see the details that the DoI glosses over.
There is an abbreviated set. The complete version runs from March 1774 to October 1774. Also check out Elliot’s Debates. Madison was the secretary during the Convention, his notes are worth reading. Because they are written in brief form it does not have all the 18th Century verbage usually included in the written form.
The Federalist papers are really great in PDF form. You can do word seaches and it makes it easier to find relative points about current issues. These were the essays written to the People of New York explaining the Constitution. Check out arms, militia and other relevant words, really a great learning tool. The Papers have been quoted ove 1500 times by the Supreme Court, not much of late until the Heller decision.
If you really want to sudy down check out Blackstone’s Commentaries. You will see a reference to them in Federalist Paper #84. The COmmentaries were heralded as the difinitive work on the Common Law. St George Tucker did an Annotated version keyed to the US Constitution. Wonderful informatiion and St George’s edition were the textbook of most all law schools until the very late 1800s.
Although horrible to contemplate…
What if a situation like this happened, cops shooting non-involved civilians in a crossfire, and the civilian was legally carrying and returned fire for his/her own protection? I would enjoy attempting to watch authorities (both politicians and courts) try to unpack that one.
In that case, they’d be prosecuted for murder, or attempted murder. We’re not allowed to defend ourselves against cops. Courts have even stated this explicitly.
Once again, they’d never survive to be charged. They would be filled so full of 9MM porcine lead right there on the spot that their corpse would probably be rendered unrecognizable.
well then, i guess the only role of citizens in government is the victim.
US v. Bad Elk… read it. The only reason these political degerneates are able to get away with this stuff is because we don’t keep ourselves informed and demand that the degens do the right thing.
Look at that crap in Florida Zimmerman… The Black folks raised holy hell and threatened a riot and the authorities arrested Zimmerman after they had let him go. All political hype, the people went hostile and the authorities gave in. Zimmerman was not even using stand your ground laws. He was on his back and having his face beat in, no way to even retreat… pure and simple self defense. The kid chose to circle back around and put Zimmerman on the ground, plain and simple. He assumed the risk not knowing if this man was armed or not. His sensibilities were offended, he attacked a individual for it and would not relent-Zimmerman had enough time to yell for help and the kid had to have heard him-and he died for his mistake. But the mob got their way and now you don’t hear a thing. If it had been a cop not a thing would have been done in the first place.
Exactly – and you know, this brings up something interesting… .
If we could organize/act as effectively as the perpetually aggrieved black underclass and its mouthpieces, then perhaps something similar – but positive – could be done.
That is, real cases of abuse – the Tazerings of people who pose no threat to “officer safety” and all the rest of it – could be beaten back.
Our problem is that we – as a group – take it. So, we accept it. Our individualism may prove to be our undoing, much as I wish it were not so.
Right now the agenda of the underclass ultimately serves the state. Which is why it bends so easily for them. In the long run the state gains power. With Zimmerman it now gets a whole new set of powers to charge people based on public opinion instead of facts. Easily manipulated public opinion. Previously it gained an end run around double jeopardy by taking those acquitted of a crime and then charging them with some sort of civil rights violation for the same act. It feels good to the clover-americans but it is wrong and ultimately a long term disaster for everyone but the ruling class.
Another example. Look at the internet bills. This is where most folks are actually liberty minded and vocal. What happens. The state just keeps trying to achieve the same ends in different ways hoping people don’t notice. It doesn’t back down or give in. Now there is a ‘treaty’ that does everything SOPA did and more. Over and over again. The vocal resistance has to be there, unlike the racial aggravations which set precedents that then remain.
The current system means the liberty minded have to stay active and vocal on many different fronts at the same time perpetually. Once the non-liberty minded achieve a victory somewhere it’s done and over with. Never to be undone.
Really replying to BrentP:
If “they” refuse to listen – how do we proceed? Asking for options, seriously. We don’t hav the “authority” to throw out the treaties signed; we cannot individually just not-comply and get traction (we’ll be a bug on the windshield.)
Sooo…. How to proceed in a RATIONAL manner? (The end-all rational manner is still not rational in our current frame – but when the lunatics run the asylum, it is the only option: the only sane response to an insane situation, is insanity. You reject my frame, generally – that the lunatics are running the asylum and we don’t have options – which is fair enough. How do we proceed, though? I’m INSIDE my frame and need an external viewpoint, hoping you can come up with something I’ve missed.)
The trust of the point I made over a year ago above is that in the present system anti-liberty achieves permanent victories while pro-liberty has a huge on-going fight to simply not lose ground.
I don’t know if there are any solutions. So long as the public is so easily manipulated socially holding on to liberty over the long term is so difficult as to be unlikely. Something has to break the conditioning, let people see the manipulations so they reject the proposals of anti-liberty forces outright.
Pity, Brent – I was hoping! 🙂
And had one of the cops stray bullets hit and killed someone would they have then blamed the shooter? Stranger things have happened and been covered up.
Probably! Though in this case, it would have been a tough sell – because the cops use 9 mm pistols and the gunman used a .45
I’m being facetious but “mystery bullets” have appeared elsewhere out of thin air. They even take the most bizarre paths through bodies.
It is always the fault of the perp. They don’t have to reconstruct or lie about evidence.
We will hear about how all the wounded by standers are the perp’s fault. It’s the Nazi conditioning system of the cops to ‘look what you made me do’.
The system already has examples. Cop is off to catch some perp and does 120mph on a residential street and crashes, killing someone besides himself or even himself and it’s the perp’s fault. They have been so charged.
The established system is that the entire chain of events set in motion by a crime is the perp’s fault. This has got to be one of the reasons cops are so reckless now.
Actually in the commission of a felony, any action resulting in an innocent person being hurt or killed is construed to be the action of the perpetrator.
The cops, however, are probable guilty of endangerment. Of course NYC is ultimately responsible under the doctrine of responant superior. They are negligent in failing to properly train and supervise their employees. A Tort for Negligence woould stand in a civil matter. The Reckless Endangerment would be a criminal act and no prosecutor in the world is going to file the charge against their body guards.
I’ve had it with the double standards of the political class. They will rail about the mere possibility of commoners doing something, therefore it must be controlled by the Manny state. When their paid assassins and thugs do the things they for us commoners might do, they are never held accountable for their criminal actions. Are laws that are enacted by these scum even enforceable anymore? If the lawmakers and law enforcers are not required to follow their rules, why the fuck should we the people? I think the whole damn country should immediately go out and buy a gun and holster, then start wearing it. Lets make november 1st national exercise your rights day. You want to see the law enforcers and political class absolutely lose it? This would do it. If the commander in chief can regularly break the law and assassinate innocents, then why can’t I and my fellow citizens exercise our constitutional rights? We would be doing nothing against the real law of the land.
Amen, Tomas –
The hypocrisy is startling.
Another poster mentioned – and I agree – that had any of those innocent bystanders shot back and wounded one of those “hero” cops, the bystander would surely be charged with attempted murder, for having defended himself against a uniformed thug spraying bullets.
“The hypocrisy is startling.”
This statement is further evidence by the situation in Tampa with the RNC.
People who live in downtown Tampa on Harbor Islands have actually had to leave their buildings and find hotels elsewhere outside the city because the Goon Squads (imported from elsewhere) have locked down the downtown and some of the highways for the protection of the political Royality.
These folks cannot even park in their own parking lots and enter their homes (hi-rise buildings) with out going thru security (because one of them might be a sniper).
Thousands of commuters transiting the bridges around the bay area are being funneled into just a couple major roads taking them 20-80 miles out of their way.
Protesters are confined to remote sites 6-8 blocks away where they will never be seen or heard by anyone of note.
The arrogance and hypocrisy of the RNC “Royality” is unbeleivable (or maybe not) and I am sure the DNC Convention will be much the same.
It is FUCKING DISGUSTING!
Oh…and that was just this weekend and the conference has not even started. Today was cancelled because of a little rain from “Isaac”…what a waste.
Isaac is a non-event to those of us who live here full time.
If you think Tampa is bad, come to Charlotte, NC, for the big Demoncrat party. They are shutting down streets nowhere near where the convention will be held. The public be damned.
Actually, that bystander would have been gunned down on the spot, shot full of more holes than were Bonnie and Clyde. Cops today don’t allow people who shoot cops to survive to see a trial. They are, in such cases, judge, jury, and summary executioners.
Well the officers in my neck of the woods are pretty good about things like this. We are required to notify an officer if we happening to be carrying concealed, most just tell us to keep it in the holster. One officer said I won’t pull mine if you don’t pull yours, I said deal.
This is all possible when the politicians are not tyrannical totalitarians. Guys like Bloomberg are just slavering wolves. He might make about 2 seconds here. Actually it is up to the people to straighten up this mess. They allowed it to happen. Its simple math. Over 300 Million people and a small percentage are politicians. The people wouldn’t even break a sweat. Funny how the illusion of power sways all the weak minded. Hell there is not even enough cops in NYC to keep Bloomberg safe if the people got out the pitch forks and torches.
What. A. Bunch. Of. Clowns.
I mean, honestly. How incredibly stupid, paranoid, and ill-trained do you have to be to fire in such an undisciplined manner?
Even if you’ve never had tactical training, but only shot at the range, you have some inhibitions.
Are these guys so terrorized by the thought of “office safety” that they abandon all reason?
In some manner you almost feel sorry for the cops. They’re being brainwashed that we, the unwashed masses and especially those of us who hold dear real American values, are the enemy…and we’re so deadly, so frightening, that you (the cop) must behave like an hysterical basket-case at the first sign of danger.
Simplest explanation: these cops had a genuine hissy-fit. I’ve seen teenagers with better self-control.
I hope it convinces millions of people that cops are the LAST people you want on a dangerous scene. There is no scene so dangerous they can’t make it much, much worse.
I assuridly agree… I can do better with my weak hand, and they were carrying .45s??? Well if it comes down to it we all should feel a lot safer, they can’t shoot worth a darned, just don’t go to NYC. They will eventually eat each other the way I see it.
Good Riddance!!!!
@methylamine – That is really what is happening here. 20 somethings pumped up by Homeland Security and the Pentagon daily (playing their subsidized Grand Theft Auto and Call of Duty type games since leaving the nipple ), and not being forced to grow-up mentally. It is all about the Usāmah ibn Lādin worldwide takeover gang and evil armed / drugged people out to get them. It is a self fulfilling prophesy .
Apparently (again for NYPD! )
(1 ) their personal safety is more important then being aware of “humans downrange”,
(2) poor “target acquisition” skills, and
(3) inability TO NOT “panic shoot” until the magazine is empty.
All points that every “city cop” used to be aware of and train for.
The bystanders will sue the NYPD. They will win a settlement. The cops who shot recklessly will face no civil or criminal penalties. Just “doing their job” don’t you know.
The victims themselves (if they are residents of NYC), will actually pay a part of their own settlement in the form of higher property taxes.
This is apparently justice.
When somebody sues any “public department,” they are actually suing all of their neighbors. Cops should be responsible for where every bullet ends up, just like a private tax victim would if they shot and wounded a bystander.
However, cops are a protected class. I’m sure William Grigg will have something profound to say about this.
you are more optimistic than I am, I don’t even think the shot bystanders will win a settlement, the precedent has already been set in other shootings where judges ahve thrown it out as long as the cops “follow protocol.” the rules are for us, not them, they are simply above the law.
I agree that Grigg will likely have a nice piece on this in a few days, his new stuff usually comes out on wednesday or thurs.
Actually US v. Bad Elk stated that the person in question was justified in shooting cops to defend himself due to a bad arrest and the fact that they percipitated the violence and were using excessive force. Pity the judicial officers don’t read the law anymore they just make it up as they go along.
Under the Common Law an individual could file a private criminal complaint. A Tresspass for Violence on the Person would be upheld here as well as a Breach of the Peace. Unfortunatly the lawyers and the judges (which are most legislators as well) have chosen to do away with the Common Law so they can have a monopoly and make sure that you can’t get into the court unless you hire one of their ilk. Check out what Jesus had to say about the attorneys in his time. Nothing has changed in 2000 years… go figure. Yeah change the COnstitution and do away with the Common Law cause times have changed…. Human nature is stil the same though.
If you have seen the security camera video of the police approaching the shooter, one thing seems clear. The police handled it completely incompetently.
The approached from behind and could easily have had guns drawn and aimed. They didn’t. Instead it appears that at about 15 feet they called out (note this is assumption) and he turns, then the police raise guns and loose 14-16 shots in the general direction of the target while scurrying for cover. Since nine shots hit bystanders this is the most atrociously irresponsible shooting I have seen is a very long while.
If they had have approached with guns aimed one or two shots would have sufficed. The cops should be fired and charged with reckless endangerment. Instead they will almost certainly be lauded as heroes for shooting a man who likely would have not injured anyone else as this was clearly a grudge against a specific individual. Instead we end up with nine unnecessary victims. FTP.
I have not seen the video but anyone police or not should not point a gun at someone unless they felt they had the need to take someone out for good. If police had done differently then you would have complained about that also.
Well, Clover, the fact is your beloved law enforcers – supposedly trained, supposedly of sound judgment – blasted away at the guy, as though they were at the OK Corral, hitting numerous innocent bystanders. But they won’t be held accountable – because they’re a protected class, the modern Praetorians.
They would have been perfectly justified shooting the perp in the back with no warning or challange. He was armed and had already demonstrated lethal intent.
K-
So that justifies their reckless and careless shooting of innocent bystanders?
I agree.
The problem is they shot wildly – and missed – repeatedly.
It was reckless as hell. Everything (as Brent pointed out) that shitheaded gun-grabbers such as Bloomberg claim armed hoi polloi (that’s us) is likely to do – these cops did.
But for the cops who shot eight innocent people, there will be no repercussions.
There is a term for that, kman: Murder.
I doubt very much-based on the video of the event-that anyone could have taken a responsible shot. Bullets, even if they hit the target, are quite capable of penetrating a human and continuing on with lethal force.
By the way-does the NYPD not have tasers for (supposedly) EXACTLY this situation? Or are those just for use after arrest?
kman – “They would have been perfectly justified shooting the perp in the back with no warning or challange”
I disagree. They could have had the wrong guy and either way that would be an execution without trial. The police were not in harms way until they escalated the situation.
Mike Stahl – “I doubt very much-based on the video of the event-that anyone could have taken a responsible shot.”
As I pointed out above, they could have had guns aimed and take far more responsible shots. Instead they panicked and went ‘spray-and pray’ with total disregard for the innocents downrange.
Mike Stahl – “Bullets, even if they hit the target, are quite capable of penetrating a human and continuing on with lethal force.”
Yes but as above, only one or two shots would have been required if this was handled professionally instead of poorly by irresponsible cowards who put their safety above those they are paid to protect.
Well Kman, what if the individual had been a licensed gun owner who thought he saw a crime in progress and just pulled out his gun to protect himself and the Innocent people around him or an off-duty cop?
Clover, here’s the thing. The killer had one target. He intended to shoot nobody else. It was personal. That means if he didn’t use a gun he would have found other means. The killer owned his gun without incident for 20 years. No gun ban was going to stop him from killing his target.
Now if a typical american gun owner had fired upon this killer, after the killer walked away (and probably hitting nobody else but the killer) we would hear about how people need to have guns taken away and the person who shot the killer would be facing criminal charges for doing so.
Those who are employed by police departments are not supposed to be above the law in a free society. Thus they should face the same charges an ordinary person would for not only killing the killer but wounding by standers.
The cops here did everything that the gun-grabbers say the typical american gun owner would do. Yet, story after self defense story shows the american gun owner does not do this. The instances where it happens seem to be cops. It’s always the cops who just unload entire clips of bullets into targets. Typical american gun owners practice gun control. They control their gun. Cops don’t. Why? Probably because cops don’t face any consequences for not doing so.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31BQv0OPFhL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
I thought gun control was holding on to your gun with both hands.
‘And hitting what you aim at’
Don’t pull the trigger till you have the shot and have applied a modicum of common sense.
I did not say say it justified recklesness. A well placed shot after postitive target identification is what I meant. Why would you assume otherwise?
huh? I didn’t reply to you.
This is not an issue that meets the criterior for a complaint… This is an issue with some demanding requisites,them being competency and accountability…These people are charged with the authority to take my freedom,why should I not be able to demand accountability for their actions … It is becoming very apparent that we the people should examine just who we entrust with this authority…The most demanding requisite should be that they are morally straight…Statistically we find an inordinate amount of cops that are divorced,alchohol abusers with various other disfunctional attributes… If the job is the reason then by all means find another job …We the people would not want to be responsible for ruining their lives…BTW at end of their term of service we get to pay them for the rest of their lives…I do not begrudge those who faithfully and competently did their duty …. it is the Bozos who putting a dent in the payroll that should go and the union should stop protecting them…
Just like Waco…. The authorities could have picked up Koresh any time with no effort or loss of life. They chose to make a big splash and wound up killing a lot of innocent people.
All they had to do was follow this guy home and the danger could have been contained. I like Bloombergh’s comment on gun control that all the cops should just go on strike until more gun laws are passed. Well if theyhad only one person would have been shot in this FUBAR……
I’d go one step farther back in re Waco:
The authorities should never have been involved, period. Koresh was a religious kook – ok. But as far as I know, no one ever claimed those in his group were being held against their will or victmized in a criminal sense (i.e., it’s not a crime, properly speaking, to peddle bullshit to people who willingly accept it).
But Koresh made for an ideal fall guy. He looked odd, he espoused “weird” religious ideas. So easy to target the “religious cult” in their “compound.” And so, he was targeted.
The thugs state always starts with the unappealing victim – then moves on to us.
Waco should have been a wake-up call. Instead, we went back to sleep.
And now, the alarm clock’s going off – but it’s too late. We’ve already overslept.
I actually saw a police officer once arrest a fleeing armed suspect with a flying tackle; the police officer was able to to catch up to the man and knock him to the ground where other police could disarm him. The video appears to show two cops side by side (wrong– you’re offering him an easier target) calling out to him to drop his weapon (wrong– that’s only in the movies, or where it’s obvious to the perp he is outgunned and has time to consider whether he wishes to live or die) while they are still far enough away that their slugs can go astray if they need to fire. I must ask the question which is an elephant in the room– could they have run up on him and overpowered him? It does appear that the police had a small window of opportunity to do so, and if they were trained properly and performed drills often enough, they could have handled it as simply as even saying something like “Routine’45’,” or some similar heads-up type phrase to co-ordinate what they were going to do, and several people need not have been injured by the cpos’ actions.
there will be a reckoning.
The cops will probably get sued, the city will settle, nothing will change then and we’ll all move on to the latest episode TV show that praises the praetorians.
I guess we all need body armor to protect ourselves from the the man.
Yes. That means, of course, that body armor will be illegal.
I’ve heard that’s on the table….
I can’t wait to see how the Chief Clover himself – Mayor Bloomberg – spins this one….
He’ll say nothing – nothing, that is, that’s critical of the cops. The “heroes” did their job. All attention will be focused on the “easy availability” of guns (even though they’re not easily available in NYC). Implicit in everything said will be the usual double standard: It’s ok for cops to shoot people – including innocent people. Just “collateral damage” and incidental to their job.
He’ll say nothing – nothing, that is, that’s critical of the cops.
Of course not. Like all politicians, he depends on these thugs for protection from the hordes of unwashed citizens that he abuses each and every day. Without Officer Oinky and his fellow hoodlums for bodyguards, Bloomberg would have wound up at the bottom of the East River, weighed down by concrete socks, a long time ago.
Thank God we don’t live in a Police State!
” Yet “
You forgot to apply your irony filter…*BEG*
DID I HEAR YOU RIGHT??????????????????????????????
My poor, uneducated, with no commonsense friend.
That is exactly where this country wants to be–A POLICE STATE. This is being done by our ignorant leaders who never read the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution. They can’t tell a democracy from a Republic and they don’t give a shit.
Any thug on the streets can get a gun for crime. But we can’t arm orselves. Do you know that if you are 18 and get arrested for a crime that has a max sentence of a year or more, even if you don’t do one day in jail, you can never have a firearm a
gain.?