Support The Troops?

Tor, great stuff. You make me laugh and think all at the same time. I’m sure that’s a federal felony by now. “We” the sheeple became Newt Gangrenewich Rush Limburghean surplus(s) cheddar heads thanks to publik skule, popular media and “basic training” to lightly scratch at the surface of the problem. Then there was mom & dad, apple pie, Chevrolet and the USMC all telling us to stand at attention, salute the rag, swear allegiance to the transnational thieves and march off to have our legs blown off by people who don’t want us in their backyards to begin with. And the vast majority, made up of the archetypical Boobus Americanus (with an emphasis on the ‘anus’ part), with their Prussian school lobotomies fully incised, believe the lie, march off into the meat grinder or a least wave the rag and cheer the others on that do. But it’s okay because they’re doing it “for the children”, so they have the approval of their own collective conscience. It kind of makes the thinking man feel warm all over…like Willy Peter and Napalm would.

Tor you have an amazing mind!

You still haven’t told me how you know Afrikaans by the way; I don’t remember if you told me you were also South African. I know Ned Ludd is.

How do you write like that? Does it take a lot of conscious effort or do you just go glassy-eyed and channel a tripped-out muse?

I don’t care. It’s great to read and it’s a gift; glad you share it with us.

Methyl, I’m thinking Tor must have a Natural gift. If it were chemically induced he would have O.D.’d by now. 😉

Tor, The bulk of the people who are old now grew up government schooled and FDR brain washed. The generation you’re looking for would be over a 100 years old now.

But ever consider that you are them? It is getting far afield but I wonder if familiarity with things from long before one was born indicate a past life on this rock.

As to some of the names you mentioned, they brought about the present condition. Ford rejected much of the company town, keep ’em down notions but much of the rest… well we have them to thank for this. This is the government they (and others) created.

@gray man:

Wait–now you adopt a conciliatory tone? After rampaging through an (established community) forum and calling people “asshole” and “dumass”, their posts “nonsense” and “bullshit”–

and you offer advice on how to persuade and convince people??

Many of us have been posting here for at least a year. We offer argument and ideas based on deep readings of current affairs, history, science, sociology, politics, and economics. There’s a lot to learn.

We persuade with facts and ideas.

Eric has thrown you multiple olive branches, and the best you can do is:
“To convince me and others like me, you have to do it THIS way”?

Man you’ve got nerve.

Gray man,

In the case of the wife being raped:

I would consider this to be a case of defensive violence if the wife fought back. The wife defending herself against a rapist.

“but passive people lose in the long run”

You foolishly assume that everyone will be passive. I wouldn’t waste any more time with you (as in old dog, new tricks)

Gray man, a woman defending herself against rape is defensive, not aggressive, albeit violent, as it should be. But let’s say some crude and rather crass guy looks at her out in public and says “Hey baby, I think you’re hot. Want to get it on?” Rude? Yes. Violent? No. But she decides to start clubbing him, pepper spraying him or even pulls out a revolver and shoots him, without him ever even attempting to touch her. That would be aggressive violence. You seem to be a bit challenged on the use of the
English language. Do you think maybe those opiates the VA gives you “for free” for your disability are affecting your ability to reason?

Once again gray man, you claim to be a Christian in at least one of your posts. If so why don’t you believe that “The meek shall inherit the earth”? Granted, meek does not necessarily mean passive. But meek does mean that one does not live by the sword. And at present, our all volunteer mercenary standing army is doing just that.

Do you honestly believe that somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 trillion dollars worth of lithium alone in “them thar hills” had no bearing on the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan? Or perhaps the U.S. military’s sudden involvement in “The Graveyard of Empires” was merely coincidental right after the Chinese bribed the Afghany minister of mines about $30 million for control of the Aynak copper deposits. Not to mention the iron, rare earths and gold (estimated at 20 – 24 metric tons!) waiting to be harvested.

After all, these are a primitive people, with no infrastucture and a corrupt government, so all these natural resources are no good to them. It’s only logical that the U.S. government should send in the military to make it safe for the big international corporations to “develop” (i.e. steal) them from these “mountain tribesmen.” Oops…I’m sorry…that’s right…it’s the Taliban. I forgot. Give me a freakin’ break.

You are either woefully misinformed or trying to incite trouble. I hope it’s the former.

Here are some examples and ideas:

stand in front of the courtroom and hand out jury nullification pamphlets.

go to road blocks, film cops whenever breaking the laws of the constitution.

Join JPFO.org, Gunowners.org, NRA

Hang banners on overpasses spreading your ideas

film dirty cops and sue the city for what they are doing.

How ’bout this one for a kicker – everyone that voted for ron paul refuse to pay taxes next year and the year after etc.

What will the government be able to do when however many millions refuse to play the game?

I’ve spent nights in jail, arguing against cops when they were wrong. Have you?

On the odd chance this just isn’t more fiction, If you ended up in jail you’re doing it wrong. I’ve argued against cops many times and won most of the time and never ended up in jail. I even pushed one to the point where when he had hopelessly lost on reason called me an “asshole” and got back in the car and left me alone at that point.

Your argument style here is much like that of many cops. It’s only going to result in the cop escalating the situation until you’re sitting in the jail cell. Meanwhile even when up against a roadraging PTSD suffering roid ranging officer 82nd airborne I still won the debate, didn’t get jailed, tazed, or anything but a lame ‘written warning’ that he wrote to cover his ass internally to the department. After that I bought a video camera.

Gray,

Every other post of yours is laced with profanity and petty insults. I’ve responded to several of your posts with factual counterpoints – which you’ve evaded, or ignored (e.g., the facts about Lincoln and the war). It’s tiresome. This board has among the most intelligent, thoughtful, well-read people you’ll find online. We don’t have much use – or time – for “asshhole,” “dumass” and “fuck you.”

So I’m a keyboard warrior, gray man, who’s done nothing to fight for the principles I uphold? How exactly do you know that?

Besides sharpening my philosophy with like-minded people on these boards, I act. But this battle will not be won on a field, it will be won in minds–just as the Revolutionary War was won in the decade before 1776, “setting brushfires in the minds of men”.

Your list above? Here goes:

* jury nullification pamphleting–done

* film cops–done

* NRA–never, that bunch of traitorous sellouts. I do support JPFO and GOA

* refuse to pay taxes–well thanks to parasitic fucktards like you, if I do that men with guns will kidnap me and put me in a cage. Because not only do the parasites demand their money, but other parasites enforce their “laws” at gunpoint.

And yes–you are a parasite no matter how you dress up your “service” as a “contract”. I never signed the contract; I didn’t ask for your “protection”, my freedoms are more threatened since your “service”, not less.

You never asked if I wanted to hire you; I didn’t, and yet I’ll still pay for it.

And by the way–today’s military is NOT Constitutional–From Article I Section 8, “To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;”

BrentP on November 15, 2012 at 7:27 pm
I’ve spent nights in jail, arguing against cops when they were wrong. Have you?

On the odd chance this just isn’t more fiction, If you ended up in jail you’re doing it wrong. I’ve argued against cops many times and won most of the time and never ended up in jail. I even pushed one to the point where when he had hopelessly lost on reason called me an “asshole” and got back in the car and left me alone at that point.

It’s not fiction Brent, however I did have to go through a learning curve. Contrary to your opinion though, sometimes cops need to be walked over, sometimes that is the only thing they understand. Much like facing a pit bull, you have to show them you are top dog. But, you win some you lose some. In the military I also faced down one Lieutenant Colonel, one Major, a Sergeant Major, the OIC of an MP station (used a JAG officer on that one – must use you resources), and several 1st Sergeants.
I’ve faced down three civilian cops, lost to one. When you are right you have power over them and they know it. Have I received tickets etc ? Of course, when you are wrong you are wrong.

Your argument style here is much like that of many cops. Like I said sometimes that is all they recognize.

Meanwhile even when up against a roadraging PTSD suffering roid ranging officer 82nd airborne I still won the debate, didn’t get jailed, tazed, or anything but a lame ‘written warning’ that he wrote to cover his ass internally to the department. After that I bought a video camera.

the camera is a good idea, one I’ve used myself.

I think my argument stands as is. If you failed to the extent you ended up in jail that isn’t a badge of honor nor does it give you another basis for argument of authority.

Your contract with whom, Gray?

Not me.

Taxes may be “constitutional” – that does make them morally right. Theft is theft.

You’re just euphemising your theft – your use of coercion against others.

My income doesn’t depend on threatening other people with violence; yours does. You tell yourself you “served.” What you did was work as a mercenary for a period of years. “Service” implies something desired; something needful that people want. I am not interested in enforcing the hegemony of the U.S. government. I am therefore not interested in paying you to enforce it. Yet you are interested in forcing me – and others – to pay for it. In fact, you demand it. You would have me killed for declining to pay for it.

What does this make you, Gray?

eric on November 15, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Your contract with whom, Gray?

Not me.
Wrong it is with you and every other citizen.

Taxes may be “constitutional” – that does make them morally right. Theft is theft.

Then change the constitution.

You’re just euphemising your theft – your use of coercion against others.

I haven’t coerced anyone in this country. As far as coercion
against other countries, that is what militaries do, you know the military our constitution supports.

My income doesn’t depend on threatening other people with violence; yours does. You tell yourself you “served.” What you did was work as a mercenary for a period of years.

“IF” i was a mercenary is was the most honest profession in this country.

“Service” implies something desired; something needful that people want. I am not interested in enforcing the hegemony of the U.S. government.

What you as an individual are interested in is actually quite irrelevant in the big picture – the country as a whole is interested in a strong military or else there would not be one.

I am therefore not interested in paying you to enforce it.

Then change the tax codes.

Yet you are interested in forcing me – and others – to pay for it. In fact, you demand it. You would have me killed for declining to pay for it.

another bullshit comment. I’m not forcing you to pay anything.
Your lack of courage to change it forces you to pay it – don’t blame me for that.

What does this make you, Gray?

What does that make you?

If you respected property rights, then you would not partake of other peoples’ property – nor defend those who do. For whatever reason. Wearing a uniform does not give you leave to steal. Not in terms of moral sanction.

You are a paroxysm of contradictions. A “collectivist conservative.”

………..and the Old Testament and Koran defend killing “non believers”. You are now the equivalent of those you long to fight.

Any excuse to kill and maim I guess. What a shame. The fallacious argument from Authority. It gets tiresome.

………..and the Old Testament and Koran defend killing “non believers”. You are now the equivalent of those you long to fight.

Any excuse to kill and maim I guess. What a shame. The fallacious argument from Authority. It gets tiresome.

nonsense: I’m a Christian, those directives in the old testament have been replaced by new directives – don’t argue the bible unless you know what you are talking about. Also their are no verses in the bible advocating killing unbelievers across the board. Each killing required in the bible was for a specific crimes.

If you respected property rights, then you would not partake of other peoples’ property – nor defend those who do. For whatever reason.

And if you respected property rights, you would stop paying the taxes that pay for people like me.
When you get the courage to do that, then point your finger at me. Until then you are just a hypocrite. Yeah, living up to your rhetoric is hard.

cashes clay, martin luther king jr, wesley snipes, rosa parks, mother teresa, and others have stood up for what they believed and payed the price. when are you going to, or is it all talk?

all talk and pasting clovers.

Gray,

A problem with the Bible is that it is literally meaningless. Or rather, that it is subject to open-ended interpretation. No one can say definitively what it means. The language is inscrutable, vague – often unintelligible. It (New Testament) is a 17th century translation of multiple previous translations of certain arbitrarily selected allegorical texts dating back more than 1,000 years. It is subject, therefore, to endless, tedious parsing as to what it “really” means. This is precisely why there is so much squabbling among the faithful. My “reading” of the “word” is no more or less valid than yours – or anyone else’s.

With all do respect your understanding of the bible is not accurate at all. The bible is the most studied, verified, and validated book in the world.
Scrolls have been found throughout the middle east, written thousands of years ago, that contain scripture passages verbatim. Are there different ways to interpret some portions? Of course, But overall the Bible is not hard to understand, it is just hard to comply with.

I prefer a simpler code:

Leave other people alone, so long as they leave you alone.

I would prefer that code as well, show me in the history of human civilization where it worked.

Mr. Cheney and the Bushes STILL don’t, so that will fall on deaf ears that have been using military folks as pawns for years.

You must make peanuts–I hadn’t even noticed the tax.

Reminds me of another Monty Python–

Arthur: [grabs Dennis] Shut up! Will you shut up?!
Dennis: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: [shakes Dennis] Shut up!
Dennis: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I’m being repressed!

Humor aside, it’s telling of your character that you take glee in plundering what others rightfully earn.

Perhaps your bitterness is guilt?

Interesting that you purport to be against this government…yet you’ll take its handouts.

Sam Adams– Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!

Such is the way of the parasite and thug. Like Obama you apparently never earned an honest dollar in the voluntary market.

But you know something, the government gang bosses consumed you and your body to make themselves richer. You lost your health to serve massa and massa gives you peanuts. You are now dependent on him. Eventually he will just cut you off, then what?

methylamine
You must make peanuts–I hadn’t even noticed the tax.

didn’t notice it, then stop complaining about taxes.

it’s telling of your character that you take glee in plundering what others rightfully earn.

I had a contract, I did my job and fulfilled my contract, that money is owed me.

Perhaps your bitterness is guilt?

guilt? I did nothing wrong.

Interesting that you purport to be against this government…yet you’ll take its handouts.

unless you give back all the advantages you get from the Government then you are phony yourself.

I payed taxes and fulfilled a contract to serve and protect, that money is mine, I earned it.

Sam Adams– Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!

I’m not doing any crouching and unless you are actively fighting the government then you are a coward, who ironically, will be saved from tyranny quite possibly by the ex military man you despise. I doubt you’ll do anything yourself, you have the stink of a coward.

BrentP
Such is the way of the parasite and thug. Like Obama you apparently never earned an honest dollar in the voluntary market.

Sorry not dependent, hate to burst your bubble, made 150,000 last year in the voluntary market.

Sorry not a parasite and thug, the constitution calls for a military, I’ve done more to help this country then you could ever dream of.

And, I’m not dependent on anybody, I get the pay and benefits due me, no more, no less.

Keep paying your taxes though, I’ll take every cent the government owes me.

Ayn Rand explained it quite well.

Thanks for the money coward, just keep on paying – talking shit the whole time but not actually doing anything.

Gray,

You’ve just revealed your true colors. You delight in the fact that the state takes other people’s rightful property and gives it to you. How is this different from the looter types cheering Obama – like sail fawn lady? Oh, you “served.” Well, I didn’t ask you to – and the fact that others may have doesn’t make your taking my money morally right. You are a tax feeder. You live off others at gunpoint. You are part of the problem – if you believe that collectivism is a problem.

I like how your trolling stories keep changing. How’s life in your mother’s basement? Or maybe the CIA’s basement. Doesn’t matter. It’s now clear you are here to disrupt.

No gray man, we’re not “paying” you military retirement and disability, you are receiving stolen goods taken from us under threat of violence by your thuggish peers that are still on the empire’s payroll. And I’ll bet you are just as “disabled” as a lot of the other double dipping, dead beat parasites I’ve had the displeasure of cleaning up behind on the job site.

I don’t buy the “everyone else is doing it” / “if I don’t take it, someone else will” arguments. If you really are a Christian as you claim, then your basic tenets should be: We are to love one another. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And, you reap what you sow. Yeshua (Jesus to the Biblically semi-literate) would never have approved of the U.S. military going on military adventures to line the pockets of the imperial banksters; he through the money changers out of the temple and flogged them.

You claim to have spent 20 years killing for the empire, or at least condoning it, at our expense and chagrin. You might want to consider repentance and humility vs. pride and arrogance now.

It’s your freewill though. If you seek your own wisdom and go after your own desires without regard for those around you, even those that are “different” or that you don’t agree with, don’t be surprised when it comes back on you. It always has come back on me. None of us are immune to moral cause and effect, but it is even more important for those of that are believers, because we know (or should) the difference between right and wrong, so we have no excuse.

Probably meant sura 9:5

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Its called satire Gray Man.

BTW, do you have a flannel suit?

No problem. I understand.

” I chose to believe the simplest and most common sense explanation.”

Can you explain how the fires got into the sub levels when the impacts and jet fuel were 80 odd stories above? I mean, wouldn’t there be 80 odd stories of rubble between the source of the fire (magical jet fuel that burns much hotter than advertised) and the molten pools of steel?

For bonus points, what is the open air burning temperature of jet fuel and what is the liquid melting point of steel?

The insulation and duration of melting isn’t the issue–it’s how did the steel become molten in the first place?

Because there was no process in the official “explanation” whereby steel would reach the minimum 2500 degrees F to melt.

Gray man, the simplest and common sense approach is that jet fuel (kerosene) even atomized doesn’t get hot enough to produce molten steel. Second of all, “the ground” is a thermal mass, it is not insulation (study the construction of underground houses for more insight) even if the heat had been sufficient to start with. And six weeks later is a long time for temperatures to stay that high, without some other factor involve such as thermite that hadn’t reacted until exposed.

Ask yourself these red pill questions gray man: why was all the forensic evidence at the Alfred P. Murrah building disposed of post haste? Why was the same thing done at the world trade center? What really happened to building number 7? Those are three simple questions you should be able to answer very easily if you really are a 20 year veteran. Our government lied to us gray, just like our superiors often did in the military. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that deceit, theft and violence are the stock and trade of rulers down through history. But believe what you will; just because something isn’t true is no good reason not to believe it, huh?

The speed at which government cleaned up the debris is astonishing when compared to its operations cleaning up other disasters.

It’s like someone or some group in the government was motivated for a change. I think we all understand what motivates people in government.

Gray,

The Official Story tells us the WTC towers fell because they were fatally weakened by the impact of commercial jetliners (and subsequent fire). A key element of the Official Story is that the physical impact of the jets blew away the insulation on the buildings’ structural steel (let’s leave aside for now that both Towers were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707) and this, in turn, led to the steel being fatally weakened by the jet fuel fire – leading, ultimately, to the collapse. I have not stated anything other than the “facts” given in the Official Story.

Let’s accept the Story as true – for the sake of discussion. Now let’s discuss WT7.

WT7 was not hit by airplanes. There was no jet fuel fire. Only a (relatively) low-temp standard “paper and wood” fire, fed by office supplies and so on. Such a fire is not capable of weakening structural steel. Fact. Insulation on said steel was also intact. Fact.

How, then, do we explain the catastrophic failure of the entire building at virtually the same moment? All of WTC7’s structural elements failed at the same time – and the building neatly collapsed at freefall speed onto its own footprint.

You once mentioned the simplest explanation is very often the correct one. Well, Gray, what is the simplest explanation for the collapse of WTC7? That it was imploded by demolition charges? Or that something unprecedented in the history of tall buildings occurred: A skyscraper collapsed symmetrically into its own footprint as the result of a paper/wood fire?

Think, man!

Gray,

Another item:

Is it not odd that there is (apparently) no video of the airplane that struck the Pentagon? I grew up in the DC area. Thousands of tourists with cameras – including video cameras – would have been in a position to film a commercial jet flying erratically (low, doing a corkscrew/banking maneuver). The plane would have been audible – intensely loud – on approach, well before it actually struck the building. All those thousands of people on the ground would have looked up to see what the hell is that… ? And scores of them would have snapped pictures/videos. It is improbable to the point of impossibility that no one took pictures or video of the airplane coming in. This is extraordinary. And utterly unbelievable.

When I was a kid, I often went to Dulles to watch the Concorde come in. You could see/hear it long before it landed. A 757 doesn’t just appear – and poof, disappear into the side of a building – before anyone has time to react. Where we live now – rural SW Va. – it’s fairly routine for F/A 18s to fly overhead on training missions. You can hear them coming well before you can see them. And they are moving a helluva lot faster than a commercial jet. Etc.

Again, think!

Final thing:

I have a friend who flew combat in Vietnam (F4s). I consider him qualified to make the observation he made to me. He told me he’d have difficulty executing the maneuvers that the supposed pilot of Flight 77 – Hani Hanjour – executed. This person (Hanjour) was just barely able to pilot a single engine Cessna trainer in straight and level flight – and yet somehow managed to perform a series of high-performance maneuvers in a multi-engine heavy commercial jet that my friend (a combat pilot with hundreds of hours in a supersonic fighter) says he couldn’t have performed. Or at least, which he’d only have been able to successfully perform with great difficulty, absent a lot of seat time in a 757.

Do you think 757s are that easy to fly? In a straight line, perhaps. Maintain course and heading. But executing violent, high-performance maneuvers (including extreme banking, severe changes in altitude, etc.) in an aircraft that was never designed to execute such extreme maneuvers to begin with – and with an inexperienced, marginally competent trainee pilot at the controls?

You buy this?

My carrier-qualified pilot friend doesn’t.

Eric,

There WERE videos of the “plane” crashing into the Pentagon.

The FBI, within hours, had confiscated every single security video from surrounding buildings that had a view of the “plane”.

Those remain classified to this day, despite hundreds of FOIA demands.

But the maddening and infuriating part is:

Did no-one notice there was no airplane debris?

Where did the tailfin go? The wings? The frikkin’s seats, the baggage, the passengers?

It’s a critically important psychological trick known to magicians–shock and misdirection. People at the time were so shocked and easily misdirected, they didn’t exercise thought–and ask questions.

Oh by the way–the engine (single, not plural) was a small turbofan of the size commonly used on cruise missiles.

Where were the two giant, 7,000 pound Pratt & Whitney PW2000 engines? Perhaps the small engine found was the APU–but it was the wrong size for that.

Here are some of the comically revealing pictures of the “crash”:
minutes after, firefighters working
Nicely done set-piece!
The only publicly available video footage–grainy, blurry, low-frame-rate shot of the cruise missile/airplane

Perhaps the most telling shot–Hey! where did the wings and engines hit, I didn’t know a 757 was only thirty feet wide!

All in all, a tale told by a fool: full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Eric as I have probably stated before the government story is that the fire weakened the thin floor trusses which then failed and pulled down the buildings.

The floor trusses with their relatively weak connections to the main structure. All that failing floor trusses do is create a void inside the building.

Please share your pseudo Occam’s razor explanation of how WTC Building 7 symetrically collapsed at free-fall speed. Watch the video of its collapse and tell me what your eyes really see?

I can direct you to the list of 1,700+ architects and engineers that question the official story. Can you please direct me to the “thousands of equally qualified scientists who debunk [my] nonsense”?

Your patently false statement evinces your lack of sincerity.

What DID “everyone” see with their own eyes? Were you there?

Thought not.

So we rely on video; and what I see is THREE buildings (WTC I, II, and 7) falling at very nearly free-fall speed.

I see voluminous clouds of pulverized concrete dust billowing from I & II as they fall.

I see molten metal streaming out of the corner of I or II just before the collapse begins.

And I see three steel-and-concrete buildings collapse into their own footprints at free-fall speed without bending, buckling, or toppling….

…explained by fire which never in the history of steel-and-concrete buildings has ever happened before.

A simple, basic understanding of physics includes knowing conservation of energy. Absent any external energy input, those buildings’ fall relied on the gravitational potential energy of their mass and height.

If they were using energy to pulverize the concrete, their rate of fall must be slower–conservation of energy.

Try living your life as you wish to – and you’ll find out right quick how “free” you are.

Hell, Gray – in most states, you’re not even free to decide whether to wear a seat belt! Let alone build an addition on “your” house.

You’re not free to make more than the most trivial decisions for yourself: Burger King – or McDonalds? Bavarian Creme? Or Jelly filled…

eric, you don’t seem to get me, I agree whole heartedly that our freedoms are being eroded. But it ain’t the military doing it – write some more article on the real guilty scumbags and I’ll back you up all day.

But it ain’t the military doing it

Well, it ain’t the military helping, either, is it gray man?

Where are they, with their oaths to the constitution?

How could the generals sit behind Leon Panetta in front of the Senate, as Panetta announced to the Senate that the military would be deployed on UN orders?

They just SAT there. A couple of Senators were (finally) so incensed they were hyperventilating.

And there we go–are you going to shift into provocateur mode now?

Encouraging some ‘real action’, are we?

They really need to hire better people at whatever department you work for.

Methyl, he is marginally better than gil or Clover, you have to admit. But then again so are some fungi…

We are all slaves, Gray. Very real ones. Only you don’t realize it.

If you’d like to realize it, see what happens if you decline to hand over whatever portion of your income others – your owners – tell you to. See what happens when you decline to obey the command of your owner’s enforcers – as, for example, the command to “buckle up for safety.” Can you do business freely with anyone you wish? No, you can’t. “Your” house is only “yours” so long as you continue to pay its real owners – the government – rent. You are allowed to occupy it, for a time. That is all.

I could literally go on for pages… but hopefully, you begin to see the point. You are only “free” to do as you are told. To operate within the limits set for you – like a good house nigger. That you get to wear nicer clothes and live in a nicer house in no way changes the fundamental fact. You are owned – because you are controlled.

As are all of us.

Like any statist you cannot see the Rockefeller principle that control is everything about ownership that is worth anything. The federal government, and thus those who shape and manipulate that political body to their bidding, own us all. They claim the fruits of our labor. They claim to tell us what we may eat, drink, or otherwise ingest. They demand tribute for the land which we supposedly ‘own’. They claim to the right to kill us if we sufficiently resist any of their claims on us. And in recent years they claim the right to kill us just because they declare us to be an enemy of their gang.

So are we slaves with the traditional ownership? No. But we are very much slaves in the same way that Rockefellers protect their wealth for generations from the same taxation that destroys our upward mobility. We are controlled and what we create is harvested from us. Just like the stocks and other assets the Rockefellers don’t ‘own’ but control.

I know… but we have to try…

Ah yes, the old “break a few eggs for an omelette” argument.

Except all I see are broken eggs.

The “greater good”, gray man? How many tyrants have used THAT old saw?

The same justification of tyranny trotted out by every would-be and actual tyrant since the time of Caesar.

We must accept the loss of “our freedoms” in order to preserve them. And people fall for this every time.

it’s not justification, it’s just reality.
I see a lot of talking on this post – but that is just it -talk.
Start leading if you’re so hot about. Not just writing in the safety of your living room.
I’ve gone to other countries to help – and no, not just when I was in the military, but as a civilian as well.
So I don’t need to justify anything to the clowns here.

No, it is simply that hind sight is 20/20 – so far all I’ve heard are comments of what should have been done in the past, it doesn’t take a genius to point that out.

Another non-rebuttal.
Hmmm, I don’t think non-rebuttal means what you think it means.

Hindsight being 20/20 gray man, means that one can clearly see where one has been; but only if they choose to look. If one knows where he has been, then he can better understand where he is now. If you really understood what the so-called “Civil War” was really about, then you would understand that it was a war of federal aggression against the still relatively independent several states. When the smoke cleared our Constitutional Republic was dead and a National government was in place. By 1898 that National government was doing precisely what it was designed to do: expanding the empire.

The cancerous growth that we loosely refer to as the Federal government started its metastasis during the Lincoln administration. In order to know where we’re headed gray man, you must first know where we’ve really been; not what our handlers tell us. You’re still spewing public grade school pabulum. Take the red pill and join those of us that have disconnected from the matrix and see it for what it really is.

This shows either how utterly brainless he is, or how utterly devoid of either self-respect or a personality of his own he is. Maybe both. Either way, it’s a sickening, sad shame.

Sacrifice for others? If you mean, defend their rights as human beings – great. But neither the military nor the police of this country do anything of the sort. What are cops – and the military – actually doing?

You keep confusing the military with the police – they are not the same thing, nor do they have the same job.

“You keep confusing the military with the police – they are not the same thing, nor do they have the same job.”

And yet they have clearly become one and the same and are both willingly destroying the rights of American citizens.

We tend to forget that ALL of the states lost the war of federal aggression and the national gun-vernment calls the shots now. A key principle of the law of war is this: When a sovereign occupies a territory with its military, that territory is subject to the will of the sovereign. It’s simple logic; if I have more men with guns on your land than you do, I get to tell you what to do. With that in mind name for me, if you can, any one of the several states or federal territories that does not have a U.S. military presence (i.e. fort, dock yard, naval base, air station, camp, etc.). You can’t do it. Every state is occupied, like it or not. The several states are subject to the will of the occupiers and have been since 1865.

The United States (Ess on the end not necessarily plural, proper noun for a corporate entity) typically attempts to occupy belligerent territories as transparently as possible. This is done in the tradition of Rome and Great Britain for convenience. It’s simply easier for the occupying sovereign to leave established social and civic institutions intact so far as they are not repugnant to the occupier’s purposes; in this case it is the so-called Federal Government or United States. If you have not done so, study Maj. Birkhimer’s treatise, Military Government and Martial Law and particularly Sections 61 through 66 on this subject. You can download it for free (MilitaryGovernmentAndMartialLaws.pdf). If you really dig in on this subject you will begin to understand that the United States has ruled the several states by force since 1865 and we are considered belligerents subject to paying tribute to the victors.

At the local and state level the constabulary, the “civilian” police, are the occupying presence. If things get out of control to the point of rebellion or insurrection, then the military will move in. But as long as “we” are relatively well behaved the PTB can continue the façade of self government and free elections. But consider this; the “civilian” police have been using military insignia of grade and rank (i.e. Sgt., Lt., Cpt., Major, Col.) for a long time. This is not a coincidence. They are and have been the de facto “peace time” occupying force in the United States. The fact that they are becoming blatantly militaristic in appearance (BDU’s, combat boots, “Fritz” helmets, M4 carbines and now even “hand me down” U.S. military hardware like APCs) merely confirms what was already going on under the radar.

If gang of thieves writ large are going to impose onerous taxes, imposts, duties and civil seizure on the “belligerents” in a territory they occupy, their use of force must necessarily escalate proportional to the level of confiscation. When that happens, the regime has no choice but to openly show its teeth. When a state actor can taze you for not putting a strap across your chest or even shoot you to death with impunity merely for having a seizure, it should be apparent to anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature that the present system is indeed a “beast.”

And what exactly do they produce? I mean other than obvious violations of their fellow human beings rights.

I ask, again, please show your work…

“Stopping communism” within the bounds of the U.S. Constitution required troops to go no further than our own shores or territorial waters. Not that it mattered: Communism did itself in anyway, as anyone who understood its inherent untenability (i.e., anyone would could read and had an IQ north of zero) already knew.

Too bad that 100,000 Americans had to needless die in two police actions (i.e., undeclared “wars”) fighting an “enemy” that was no threat, operating under an ideology that committed suicide of its own accord.

You can call it whatever you like. The fact remains: Johnson staged a false flag event to enrage U.S. public opinion, in order to grease the skids for war.

And how many Vietnamese did we kill in order to save?

The USA is more communist than many countries. Just read the ten planks and see how they have been implemented in the USA to one extent or another.

libberanter,
“fighting an “enemy” that was no threat”

Question: If communism is no threat, why are you upset about the way our country is moving politically? Apparently (according to you) there is no threat.

You do know that communists infiltrated into the US. Flooded our universities in the sixties with spies. The fall of the Berlin wall gave access to the Vanona papers that explains the plans to infiltrate american universities and corrupt our youth in the 60’s. They were successful. Ex-KGB Officer Yuri Bezmenov explains this on youtube.

@gray man:

You do know that communists infiltrated into the US. Flooded our universities in the sixties with spies.

YES–now you’re talking.

We were never truly threatened militarily. The “Cold War” was used domestically to reap massive profits, while building a large shadow government in the military-industrial complex.

It also served nicely to keep the sheeple frightened of their own shadows–just like the “War on Terror” does today.

Meanwhile, it was largely a diversion–because while we were “fighting Communism” over there, they established it right here.

And now look who’s president–an ally of the Weathermen. And we’ve instituted 8 or 9 of the 10 planks of the Marxist Manifesto!

But it goes beyond the importation of Soviet spies–far beyond. Because our own OSS nee CIA in Operation Paperclip imported thousands of high-level SS officers.

In WWII we defeated Germany–but we didn’t defeat National Socialism.

And in the grand scope, what ideology to the biggest Elite powers, the globalist banksters, always push on their serfs?

That’s right–collectivism, in the form of fascism, socialism, or communism…but they’re all really the same–authoritarian, totalitarian, collectivist…

…and grant those same Elites absolute power in the long run.

Communists infiltrated in the 1960s? HAHAHAAHAA! They’ve been here all along.

Who do think financed communism?

Right. The U.S. puppet government. Just as in Iraq – just as in Afghanistan.

No, Gary – fact.

“Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace” – one of the war crimes of which the Reichsmarschall was convicted for participating in (among the notables) the attack on Poland in 1939. The US government did no less as regards Vietnam.

You really aren’t very smart, are you? What the hell does warfare based on lies have to do with home defense?

Don’t bother straining your pea brain trying to answer that – it’s a rhetorical question. Morons always vomit out non sequitors when they can’t defend their nonsensical “arguments” with facts.

Gray,

Did it ever occur to you that Vietnam was not “our” house? The premise of your argument is the neo-con/Wilsonian/Lincolnian idea that it is the duty – the moral right – of the U.S. to impose its conception of “democracy” the world over. At bayonet-point.

If my neighbor’s house is on fire, I would volunteer to help put it out. I would not show up with my rifle and threaten to kill him if he didn’t handle the situation as I “decided” it ought to be handled.

Violence is only justified in self-defense. North Vietnam did not attack the US.The US – that psychopath Lyndon Johnson – deliberately manufactured a lie (Tonkin Incident) to enrage U.S. public opinion, in order to launch an aggressive war against it. Fact.

This pattern is recurrent.

You might ask yourself the detective’s first question: Who benefits?

So I see you have no rational counterpoint and thus attempt an emotional personal tangent of irrelevancy.

Explain to me how people in Vietnam living under communist rule would have any effect on the average american. I calculate the effect to be approximately zero. Now attempting to make it so they did not live under communism had a huge adverse effect that is still being felt.

Should have just let them be commie.

libberanter,
Morons always vomit out non sequitors when they can’t defend their nonsensical “arguments” with facts.

Before you use the word non sequiter in a sentence, please make sure you know what it means.

Well, well gray man, you apparently need a little education on the definition of a non sequitur yourself or you you wouldn’t have used the “your house” argument in an effort to muddy the waters of debate. That line of “reasoning” does not logically follow as an analogy to invading a country that had not attacked us and in fact had no capacity to do so. So your statement was indeed a non sequitur.

I suppose it was disheartening to some of the French (mainly the elite) that they lost their colony, but there doesn’t seem to be that much oil under the Tonkin Gulf anyway. So what were “we” actually there for? You need to read Gen. Smedley Butler’s “War is a Racket” and then maybe you’ll see who benefited. Hint: folks make a lot of money selling supplies and armament to warring nations. No war, no sales. Other folks make even more money and have over the centuries amassed huge quantities of real wealth, such as land, gold, priceless works of art and control of international finance lending money to warring nations (often both sides). Contemplate that for a while, then get back to us.

liberranter,
Too bad that 100,000 Americans had to needless die in two police actions (i.e., undeclared “wars”) fighting an “enemy” that was no threat, operating under an ideology that committed suicide of its own accord.

Your lack of understanding of history shows. Communism was in fact expanding across the globe. We were asked to help stop the communist north from infiltrating the south, both in korea, and in vietnam. we were successful in one, both militarily, and politically (south Korea), unsuccessful in the other. We won the war in vietnam militarily, however we lost politically. We lost the war because of people like Walter Cronkite, voicing un-informed opinions to the people in this country – opinions that were in fact wrong. The supreme commander of the north himself has stated on record that the north lost, until we pulled out because of misinformation. misinformation spread by the left.
question: If communism collapsed under it’s own accord, why is it still here?

Actually gray man, communism was merely replaced with a pseudo-socialistic fascism. With communism, pretty soon practically eveyone defaults to minimum output because there is no benefit (i.e. profit) from being more productive (i.e. working harder) than the next drone. The black marketeers typically make out, but soon there is so little OPM (other people’s money) that the regime must resort to confiscatory taxes and monetary inflation to stay afloat. With fascism (i.e. where the corporations, especially the banksters, actually own the government), there is enough profit allowed to keep the people reasonably happy and productive while allowing the kleptocracy to operate a lot longer. So what you have now in China is merely being represented to the people as Maoist Communism (which went broke), but is in fact a form of fascism run by the insiders for their own benefit. We have basically the same thing going on here too. You just don’t want to see it, so you can’t. But just because you choose to ignore a thing does not change its character or the fact that it exists.

If the military refused to play along we would not be in this state of affairs today. The whole system runs on violence, on muscle. If people, if the institutions of that muscle, refused, if they stood up as men and said they would not do these things, they could not happen.

So do I blame the guy in uniform? Yes I do. But I understand he is ignorant and duped so I feel sorry for him, I have empathy for his condition, but he is still responsible for not educating himself.

Many are good people who cannot live with the things they’ve done or participated in once the veil of bullshit is lifted from their eyes. The result is the high rate of suicide and other issues effecting military and ex-military today.

So ultimately I feel for them, hope they can save their souls, but this does not mean they aren’t responsible. Because they are. Someone has to say no.

It’s not like my job where if I back down and just follow orders the warranty rate increases, in their job people die from just following orders. People shouldn’t take those jobs for that very reason.

what the military should be like (In your uninformed opinion) and what it is are two different things.

“yes, I support desertion” – says the person who doesn’t have to face the consequences.

Yes, indeed.

If one refuses to execute an “order” – if one says, screw this, I’m out of here; I won’t be a party to “regime change” – one will be pursued doggedly by camo’d thugs to “face the consequences.” Bradley Manning, for instance. He dared to reveal evidence of crimes committed by the U.S. military. And unlike the soldiers who exposed Obersturmfuhrer Calley, Manning was ostracized, then crucified.

Because he didn’t “support the troops.” That is, accept whatever the “troops” do – including murder.

As you do.

First of all I have refused unlawful orders while in the military, second of all I don’t support murderers.
Bradley manning is in trouble because he was stupid. He released a lot of material that did no harm and it was good to release it. He also released classified material that got people killed. In the middle of a war, you don’t release information that aids and abets the enemy, he knew that.

Let us not forget the tens of thousands of southern civilians who were deliberately murdered by the Northern aggressors.

And I guess those southern slave masters never deliberately murdered anyone.

“Half of the world?” In which half? In what countries? Do elaborate…

I know of no slavery in the world’s industrial nations.

tgsam

the entire middle east, north africa, central africa, parts of southern africa, anywhere islam is dominant, and a lot of first world countries where islam is prevalent. If you don’t know about this , please remove head from sand.

Yeah gray man, we should hate the corrupt government but we should worship its enforcers. It is like saying you are against Al Capone but you love and respect and admire his hit men.

Government is a racket but government created wars are noble…?!!

I think you need to take off your government issued costume hat and put on your thinking cap.

skunkbear,
please tell me the exact time someone in the military deprived you of you rights. otherwise it’s nonsense.

Sure, the government’s doing it–well, actually, the globalist banksters who own the government.

But where the hell is this holy military you praise? Oh that’s right, it’s off fighting on the five or six fronts the un-constitutional government told it to.

And it obeys.

I agree completely that our government is corrupt, I agree completely that we are losing our freedoms. I agree completely that it must change, just put the blame where it belongs. It’s not our military doing it.

gray man, if the military didn’t back up, with its firepower, all of those corrupt scumbag politicians who impose all of those unconstitutional laws and wage all of those destructive, immoral, and unconstitutional wars, THEN THERE WOULD BE NO OUT-OF-CONTROL FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. It is only because brainwashed, desperate, IGNORANT people like you put on a uniform, click your heels, render a salute and say “Yes, sir! How high shall I jump, sir?” that this criminal nonsense exists today at all!

So,yes, you ARE “doing it” – all of you. Only when you collectively draw a line in the sand and say NO, WE WILL NOT obey an unlawful and unconstitutional order!” will you be part of the SOLUTION.

But since that requires giving up a guaranteed paycheck and making a stand for freedom, we know that no such thing will ever happen.

gray man asked, “skunkbear …please tell me the exact time someone in the military deprived you of you rights. otherwise it’s nonsense.”

The exact time was Sep 30, 2011 when Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen was murdered by a US drone strike without any trial.

You say that is not me? Must I really point out that the violation of the rights of one citizen is a violation of the rights of all citizens?

Who guarded that drone? Who maintained and armed that drone? I do not think it was the US Park Service.

And who pulled the trigger, killing not just him but other innocents? I may be wrong but I am pretty sure it was not Bob in accounting over at the Congressional Budget Office.

Also what liberranter said so excellently on November 14, 2012 at 8:34 am.

“The exact time was Sep 30, 2011 when Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen was murdered by a US drone strike without any trial.”

First: I said anyone that deprived you.

second: Anwar al-Awlaki was in a military zone conducting operations against US troops, by doing that he forfeits a trial, the same as any other combatant in a combat zone. If he had been captured it would have been different, but he was not. The US soldier has no obligation to try to capture an enemy combatant versus kill them.

Gray man, I don’t understand the ‘thinking’ of people like yourself. You say our rights are fine until someone decides to stomp us personally. That’s incorrect. Just because what I am doing now and who I am is currently not worth some federal government bureaucrat’s precious time doesn’t mean that my creator endowed rights are not imposed upon or denied.

Everything we own, everything we are, our very existence is now effectively a grant of the state. The state believes it now has the right to take anything it desires from us. Just because the state doesn’t bother me personally does not mean my rights are not unencumbered by the demands, the claims of the state. It just means they aren’t going to bother me. Today. So long as I pay them to leave me relatively alone.

But if our dear leader decides tomorrow that this BrentP guy who posts on epautos is a ‘national security threat’, an ‘enemy combatant’ a CIA drone may fire a missile through my window, killing me. It’s all legal too.

Before Obama the executive had to first declare someone an enemy combatant and then yank their citizenship. All on his command. This was the GWB set up. That was changed with Obama. Now they just declare and kill.

So this simple minded thing where we have to point to and individual transgression of our rights (and I can name a few if needed, but you just side with the so-called authorities anyway) is simply absurd.

Imagine for a moment you step through a time portal and find yourself in 1982. When you talk to americans in 1982 of the present they don’t believe you. They think you’re loony. They won’t be able to comprehend what americans put up with today from the government. Just like you won’t believe someone from 2042 if this path continues.

Imagine for a moment you step through a time portal and find yourself in 1982. When you talk to americans in 1982 of the present they don’t believe you. They think you’re loony. They won’t be able to comprehend what americans put up with today from the government. Just like you won’t believe someone from 2042 if this path continues.

Brent B I was in the military in 1982, I know exactly how they think.

That isn’t true. The National Guard is controlled by federal orders ultimately. That’s why the tag says US Army on the chest. It’s why so many guard units have deployed to the current “situations” in the war on “terror”. The founders never wanted a standing army in the country. They knew that if you have it, you tend to use it.

“The National Guard is not the US military.”

I am speechless.

sorry, the national guard gets paid by the state and is under state control, they are not the same entity.

Gray,

Wars are almost always about resources. About making a country – that is, the elements which control the country – richer. Do you really believe we have “boots on the ground” in the Middle East because we’re “fightin’ fer freedom”? That it’s not because of the oil that’s there?

Why did Lincoln pursue the Southern States? He told us: Because he needed their money. The South was paying the lion’s share of the tariff that funded the federal government. The North would be poorer if it did not make war on the South.

Why did Hitler attack the Soviet Union? He needed to secure the oil fields in Romania from Soviet attack and also to acquire the land and resources of European Russia. To enrich the Reich.

Why did Japan pursue a “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity” if not to make Japan richer? It sought oil – and mineral wealth. Which we (FDR) decided would give Japan unacceptable wealth – and thus, power.

Virtually any war you can think of was launched in order to make the country (its owners) richer. That is the object. Not “glory” – that’s the pap they teach the grunts who fight and die to make their owners richer.

Hi Gray. I never said that war makes countries richer. In fact, I was saying the opposite, so your reply has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote. If you really think the broken window fallacy counters the fact that arms merchants are enriched by war, I can only recommend reading Bastiat again. And if you think I said that war makes countries richer, I would ask you to read my post more carefully.

Is that what you say to everything you don’t have the wherewithal to refute logically?

Tell me about OK City then, gray man.

Let’s talk conservation of energy, the inverse square law, detonation velocity of ANFO. Let’s talk about 6,000 psi steel-reinforced structural concrete columns.

Or will you again say “LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-I am not listening!”

Your debate technique leaves something to be desired.

Hint: arguing does not consist of:
“nonsense”
“tin foil hat”*
“dumasses”

And for Christ’s sake use a spell-checker, it’s 2012

* tin is toxic, we use aluminum now-adays.

like I said put your tin hat back on the martians are scanning your brain

I say put your tin hat back on because that is exactly the kind of damage fertiliser bombs are designed to do. I know, I’ve built them.

As I thought.

Unable to put forward a logical argument, you repeat your propaganda-induced “slide”–“tin foil hat”.

Do you know what a “slide” is, gray man? It’s the term the CIA uses to describe a mental diversionary tactic that’s implanted to prevent people from contemplating inconvenient ideas. Read up on a nasty little place called the Tavistock Institute; the “slide” is one of their legacies.

Most people today use “conspiracy theory” as their slide. It’s not an argument technique, it’s a quick-and-dirty ad hominem.

But you won’t argue about OK City, because you can’t…or don’t want to, because the truth is too horrible to bear.

Unable to put forward a logical argument, you repeat your propaganda-induced “slide”–”tin foil hat”.

what is it about “I know what they do because I’ve built them” don’t you understand? that is not propoganda

wrong, congress authorized afghanistan

You are wrong. Congress did not declare war – per the constitution – on Afghanistan.

Wrong.

The AUMF was a blanket statement, Congress abrogated their duty. They did NOT declare war, they simply handed the reins to the Executive.

And it’s run with them.

Tell me about Libya, then; was there ANY congressional input? Obomber simply declared “number two, make it so!”–NO authorization.

Shouldn’t the “protect and defend the constitution” generals have refused the order?

Or are they all “just following orders” now?

You’re too loyal, gray man, and it’s made you forget the principles you purport to uphold.

so blame the people who don’t follow the constitution.

gray man:

so blame the people who don’t follow the constitution.

I AM: I’m blaming the politicians, and the military that follows orders against their oath to the Constitution.

Why don’t you get this?

Their primary duty is to the Constitution, which is the foundation of the country.

NOT to some snot-nosed, 4-year Johnnie-come-lately president.

“Commander in Chief” my ass; the Constitution is their commander, and they–the military–wipe their asses with it.

This is real nice!

“maybe kill a few who sent people”

I think having a website with over 100k unique visitors a month will do more good than killing people and going to prison. Just my $0.02.

Gray,

Immoral actions committed by others – without my participation or consent – are not things for which I am morally responsible. I do, however, try to call attention to such immoral actions and thereby, work to put an end to them. Or at least, prevent them from occurring again.

My work is peaceful – yours is violent.

My associations are based on voluntary cooperation. Yours on coercion.

For you, might makes right. Do what I say – or else.

It makes you of a piece with thugs throughout history. That you salute a different flag is purely cosmetic.

More like your work is safe – seeking security instead of freedom and all.

Yeah two years after he died of kidney complications related to Marfan’s syndrome.

I would have recognized Marfan’s when I was a second-year med student; once you get to the protein-wasting stage, which he obviously had, you don’t last long…especially not wandering around the Hindu-Kush mountains.

There were at least four badly-done fake OBL videos and audios; they’re so obvious they’re laughable.

His immediate response was to deny responsibility; if he wanted maximum impact, he’d take credit immediately. Why would he ‘fess up years later? Think, man, think!

There’s so much material explaining how 9/11 could not have been due to airplanes hitting buildings I won’t even try to cover it here.

But I doubt you have the intellectual fortitude and spiritual gumption to go find it, read it, and evaluate it honestly.

You’d rather cling to comfortable illusions.

I’m just an engineer with some medical device experience and I’ve been calling Tim Osman Osama bin Dead for a good number of years now.

Let’s say OBL got US government certified three times a week clinic dialysis. The odds are in favor of him dying no later than 2006. This is when I declared him dead. He was likely dead years before, but at this point I could mathematically say it.

Now never mind that the US government has stifled dialysis treatment, with daily state of the art dialysis he could live longer, but he’s not getting that in the caves and on the run. Hard to get the consumables even if he got the machine.

Now this is not including what caused him to need dialysis in the first place. It just assumes renal disease requiring hemodialysis.

So we know he had to be dead long before Obama declared him dead.

The american public believes in fantasies and lies and calls us conspiracy theorists for just pointing out the obvious. Osama bin dead. Long dead. He was probably dead or close to it in 2001 which made him the idea Goldstein.

I’ve studied Islam quite a bit. There are some objectionable things in the Koran, but I’d say the same of the Bible. The Muslim advance into the West stopped centuries ago. It was the West that rekindled the “clash of civilizations” by invading Islamic nations, overthrowing their governments, stealing their resources and colonizing Palestine. If it were you in that situation, you’d be fighting back, too.

If you think the Bible compares to the koran then you know nothing of either. The ottoman empire (islamic expansion) was stop by WWI not centuries ago. There were muslim SS troops in the NAZI party. we pay for the resources they sell us – we steal nothing. Last time I looked american aren’t colonizing palestine. Jews were there millennia before islam was invented. Who’s trying to colonize who? from your comments you really know nothing of islam.

“Add another item to your “Resume of Ignorance”: you obviously don’t know any Muslims either.”

Actually I can guarantee I know more than you do, possibly more than anyone on this blog.
I’ve lived among them for years (with an S). The problem is islam, not the individual peace loving muslim, who doesn’t want to follow jihad. But then according to the koran, hadith, sura, sharia law etc, if they don’t want to commit jihad they are not a muslim. they are appostate and must be killed.

You mean the problem is that some people are manipulated into doing bad things.

Sounds like what happens to americans who join the US military.

Oh, give The Chimp his due: He “served” in the Texas National Guard… fightin ‘fer freedom, doncha know.

So whaddaya want, a cookie? Some of the rest of us here “served” as well, for about as long as you did, and still came away after all those wasted years with a solid appreciation of the truth: that not one of us ever “served” our country by “defending freedom” (unless you’re an immortal who fought in every battle from Lexington Common to Yorktown). ‘matter of fact, the only way anyone on active duty today will EVER truly “defend freedom” is the day they form an army to march into Washington, D.C. and arrest everyone in the White House, on Capitol Hill, and in the Supreme Court for treason and subversion of the Constitution. (A ceremonial burning of the USAPatriotAct and NDAA would make a good start and show of sincerity.)

So how about it? Are YOU willing to do your part to “defend our freedoms” so that what you’ve posted here won’t be remembered in the future as mere brainless propaganda bullshit?

Major General Smedley Butler wore the Marine Corps uniform for over thirty years, and would tell you you were full of shit. I wore that uniform for eleven and, fortunately, I am still alive and able to tell you you are full of shit. War is the politician’s, corporatist’s and banker’s game. You and I, and all the others who swore the oath, were their pawns. Seriously, wake the hell up!

“The Final Days”, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein:

In Haig’s presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as “dumb, stupid animals to be used” as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig’s office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screamin for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.

methylamine on November 14, 2012 at 1:52 am
So what happens to those “good reasons” when they’re sent on wars of aggression?
All wars are aggression that is the point – to win

Justify Iraq. OK now justify Afghanistan–after “al Queda”* was “destroyed” and the Taliban “removed”.

Justify Libya. Justify Syria–yeah, there’s boots on the ground.
I don’t justify libya

You of all people should be furious–are you really this fucking ignorant? Your own comrades are being killed by the Elite playing their little games–breathing depleted uranium while cleaning barrels, consuming lethal experimental vaccines, doing three, four, six, NINE tours of duty…they’re being used up and thrown away.

You do understand that they are all volunteers don’t you?

Their death benefits are being stolen.

And how about that VA, chum? How’s that working for you?

Then when you come home, the fusion centers and their MIAC reports consider you the number one terrorist threat–not an honorable veteran, but a likely domestic terrorist.

I didn’t vote for the people who believe that – I’m against them like everyone else here.

If you speak out, they black-bag you and put you in a psych hospital–look up Brandon Raub. A man I know–John Whitehead–defended him….but there are thousands just like him.
Don’t blame the military for that – blame the people responsible.

Throw them in a mental institution; even if they get out–guess what? No more weapons for that young man–he’s crazy after all! Why do you think they’re doing that, Mr. Rosy-Glasses?
again blame the people responsible.

* aka “al-CIAduh”; yes, those are the same mujahideen recruited by, trained by, paid for by, the CIA in the late 70′s against the Soviets. The name itself is a cute little joke; it means roughly “the base”, as in, the CIA database of loyalist mujahideen; but it’s funny because it can also be slang for “toilet”.

at the time the soviet union was the biggest threat – you use the tools you have.

Tim Osman, meet Osama bin Laden…CIA asset.

@gray man:

All wars are aggression that is the point – to win
…
I don’t justify libya
…
You do understand that they are all volunteers don’t you?

“Wars of aggression”–i.e. wars unprovoked by an initiating attack. I’m beginning to think you’re not the sharpest tack in the box.

You don’t justify the Libyan attack–which of the others DO you justify, gray man?

Iraq? Syria? Soon Yemen, Iran?

You say you took an oath to defend the Constitution.

Then why don’t you? All you have to do, is say “those wars are illegal and the military should refuse orders to enter them.”

And as far as “volunteers”–perhaps, but do they understand what’s being done to them? Is it right for their commanders to put them in mortal danger unnecessarily?

Why aren’t you mad as hell that your comrades are getting record rates of cancer, birth defects, and sickness?

They try to convince themselves that they’ve joined to “defend our freedoms,” “serve our country,” etc. Fact is, most of them aren’t honest enough to admit that they joined only because they couldn’t get jobs anywhere in what little remains of the private sector – a private sector destroyed by the very people for whom they’re working as hired mercenaries.

He won’t. Like I said above, most people on active duty today don’t have the guts to admit that they joined the military only because they either couldn’t find jobs anywhere in the private sector or couldn’t afford college.

gray man, “my” senior enlisted career adviser was a pot bellied alcoholic who warned me (in 1981) how bad the economy was, that I wouldn’t be able to get a job (my AFSC was avionics FYI) and that I’d be back in three months, losing my time in grade. He went on and on about how bad it was on the outside and what a good deal we had in the Air Force. I even had an SRB of 4 (worth $20K back then), but I’d already seen what most of the “lifers” were all about and knew I could make a lot more money in the private sector without having to play that game.

So I informed MSgt. Beergut that I was not a social misfit married to fat woman who hated me to the point that I had to go to the club every night and put away two pitchers of beer before I could go home to face her. And furthermore, that I didn’t need Mother Air Force to feed me, clothe me, house me and wipe my ass for me. Since I had described him and his life to a tee, his knuckles went white, his face turned red and he responded just as intelligently as you have in most of your posts, by yelling “YOU’LL SEE! YOU’LL BE BACK! YOU’LL SEE!” I called the base where I’d been stationed a year later to tell him that I’d already paid more in taxes than he’d made as an E-7, but they’d sent him off to Korea (sigh). Yeah, I saw alright and I didn’t look back.

I could have done anything I wanted, I chose the military.

I think he’s already been branded. This is one Clover who, in a few months when martial law is declared, will probably be taking up arms against his neighbors – or even his own family.

Yeah – I had hoped for the best… but it appears we need to prepare for the worst!

I haven’t read it, thanks for the recommendation Scott.

I hope I don’t sound pessimistic. I’m a long-term optimist; we have enormous potential.

Just ordered on Amazon.

Methyl, I can’t really say I recommend it, I think Heinlein did a better job with “Gulf”, but it provides some historical background. I just happened on it recently.

Kettle Belly says “Check it out” 🙂

“I got got this burnin’ yearnin ‘feelin’ inside me.
Oh and it hurts so bad.”

— Ed Holland, The Supremes

You do not change your ideas because you get older. You change your ideas because, hopefully, you are made wiser with experience and reflected thinking. If you are not a work in progress then you are just a stain.

“Iv’e seen plenty of people who got more stupid as they aged.” And those are the ones who got promoted.

reflected should be reflective. My bad…

Iv’e seen plenty of people who got more stupid as they aged.

I know. We’ve seen ample evidence of that in your posts here.

Actually ,as much as I like reading ericpetersautos, this article is full of shit. I served 20+ years, I’m a retired veteran, and I never hurt an innocent person. In case if you dumasses don’t remember history, we were attacked on 9/11. And in case if you think that was our fault, you don’t know jack about history. The first war the US ever did was against islam (barberry pirates). Islam has been at war with the world for 1400 years. Some of you just woke up to it, some of you never will.

gray man- just like the getaway driver never robbed any banks, right?

Even our legal system has an entire segment of law around complicity, from full blown accomplices to those who facilitate. Whether you want to talk about logistical people in the military, or voters, they are ALL complicit in the crimes of politicians and govt.

So which is it? Either you’re a special exemption, or rules are applied universally? hmmm?

gray man, you might want to learn some history yourself. People are people.

Governments and religions are often run by a small group that manipulates others into serving their interests. That’s just the way it is. It’s true of the guy who signs up for the US Army it’s true of the guy who follows OBL. There are even things called ‘false flag’ attacks that are part of the manipulation.

War is a racket. It always has been.

this ain’t got nothing to do with the get away driver. you seem to think everyone in the military is guilty of every crime committed by someone in the military. asinine nonsense – with that argument everyone in the world is guilty of every crime by every one else in the world. how ’bout researching lieutenant Calley from Viet-nam.

gray man- Let me see if I can explain this to you simply, in a language you’ll understand…

oh yeah?! Well whatever I say is right, and you’re a poo face! Neener neener! I’m not even going to read any of your responses, I’ll cover my eyes while screaming “LALALALALAALALALAAA!” and conflate anything you say into nonsense! Take that, stupidhead!

@gray man:

I’ll counter Lt. Calley with War is a Racket by Smedley Butler–two-time Medal of Honor recipient.

You revere the UCMJ? How about the Constitution you swore to protect against enemies foreign and domestic?

So–have you participated in any of the recent wars, or lent them material support? Because NONE of them were properly declared “war” by Congress–as demanded by the Constitution.

And all of them were wars of aggression–not defense.

Surely you don’t like seeing your comrades chewed up in Afghanistan, guarding poppy fields, and committing suicide faster than the enemy can kill them?

Look–most of the young men I meet from the military are good, decent people. But they’re being used by disgusting, loathsome, decadent psychopaths.

When they figure it out, they either spiral into depression from remorse, or they take the right step–and become TRUE patriots, who understand that the worst threat to a nation is its own government.

America can’t be taken over by a foreign enemy. But it can be taken over–and has been–by a domestic enemy.

Now, gray man, are you a patriot? Are you brave enough to face the truth, that our government is a criminal gang that’s stolen our country from us?

@methylamine

“How about the Constitution you swore to protect against enemies foreign and domestic?”

If they took the oath seriously, they’d have marched into Washington DC years ago.

gray man said,”I never hurt an innocent person.”

Did you hurt any people at all? If so, how did you know who was guilty and who was innocent? Show your work…

@meth Tolstoy wrote, in “A Letter to Liberals” about the harmfulness of “good people” getting involved with the government (in positions where they “harm no innocent person” as would be asserted).

It is harmful because enlightened, good, and honest people by entering the ranks of the government give it a moral authority which but for them it would not possess. If the government were made up entirely of that coarse element – the violators, self-seekers, and flatterers – who form its core, it could not continue to exist. The fact that honest and enlightened people are found who participate in the affairs of the government gives government whatever it possesses of moral prestige.

BrentP,
The way this comment section is set up, I can’t comment directly too you. I know plenty about history, I’ll put my knowledge of history against anyone. And, no I don’t fall for the “chicken little sky is falling” nonsense seen today.
Maybe you need to learn about the history of islam try here:
politicalislam.com
youtube: why we are afraid a 1400 year secret by Dr. bill warner.

Obviously you don’t, otherwise you would not spout the ‘they hate us because we are free and they are crazy people’ line. But if you don’t want to learn history try being friendly with people from that region. I have known people who are from many places in the region. Try talking to them. You might be shocked to learn they are people. People who are more like you than like the american ruling class which you served for all those years.

The average american has more in common with the average person in any of these middle eastern countries than he has with Obama, Bush, Rockefeller, or anyone else of such ilk. Trouble is americans largely don’t bother getting to know these everyday people. They just allow themselves to be manipulated until they are killing people who would be their friends otherwise.

It WAS attacked–but not by whom you think.

If you’re so well-versed in history, you know that the false-flag operation is the rule, rather than the exception.

The Lusitania. Pearl Harbor. Gulf of Tonkin. Oklahoma City. 9/11.

And that’s the short list.

Anyone who’s read history knows the people are reluctant to enter war–and governments are eager and willing.

Hey, Eric – you’ve got a new addition to the Clover Club!

“this country was attacked on 9/11. It’s been attacked several time”

And I for one think it’s a very useful exercise to list each one of them so no one get’s confused.

First in my memory would be the German torpedo attack on the Lusitania, a civilian passenger ship. OK, the Lusitania wasn’t a US flag ship, but since over 100 Americans were on board the media had a field day with it and the ensuing outrage cause the US to enter WWI on the side of Britain. Nobody ever asks why over 100 US citizens were on a boat carrying over four million rounds of ammunition to Britain during a war. Poor saps.

Second we have Perl Harbor, an attack staged by the US, who spent months baiting Japan with oil blockades and repeatedly refused Japanese offers of peace and negotiated settlement. The US didn’t do anything to provoke and did not embargo (attack) Japan first. Oh no. Heaven forbid.

Next we have Korea. Shit. I have no idea why we got involved in Korea. I don’t think anyone does.

Then we had the Gulf of Tonkin event. the USS Maddox attacked three Vietnamese “torpedo boats” operating in their own waters, killed a few people, then was a little too embarrassed about it to talk much. Later they staged a fake sortie with some fishing boats in the Gulf of Tonkin and an outraged America gave a gun to the guy who killed Kennedy in his home town. ‘Nuff said.

Most recently we have the mysterious events of 9/11, wherein several US built aircraft with automated avionics capable of taking off, flying to their destination then landing without a pilot, destroyed a a couple white elephant structures in downtown Manhattan that were costing their owners millions of dollars a year. 19 “Arabs” were ostensibly on-board the aircraft and were accused of flying the planes, though no bodies were recovered and none were known to be competent to fly such equipment in the aerobatic maneuvers demonstrated. This led to outrage in the US and resulted in Shrub killing the guy who bad mouthed his Daddy.

I think that about covers the history of attacks on the US during the past century.

Speaking of Pearl Harbor:

322. FDR Provoked Pearl Harbor – http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2012/11/13/322-fdr-provoked-pearl-harbor/

@Lberns1

—

I saw a film today Oh, Boy!
The English army had just won the war.
A crowd of people turned away, but I just had to look,

having read the book.

I’d love to turn you on.

I read the news today Oh, boy!
Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire,

And though the holes were rather small
They had to count them all. Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall.

I’d love to turn you on.

Who the hell is talking about libertarianism? My point, if you bothered to read the thread, was that Smedley Butler advocated taking the power to declare and wage war out of the hands of the male gerontocracy and putting it into the hands of the people (i.e., males under the age of 40) who would actually be the ones to fight the war. This has nothing whatthefucksoever to do with libertarianism.

Liberranter, there is nothing unusual about Gil’s cognitive disconnect from what is really being discussed. There are some of us who suspect that when Gil was little, his ma’ma mussa dropped him on his haid…

Actually, Tinsley does have a point (which is NOT to say that the draft is a good or even moral idea – not, I believe, that this what he was trying to say either). When the draft was in force, it affected a far greater cross-section of the nation than does the current all-volunteer (i.e., mercenary) force. The Vietnam War protests were largely the result of the fact that so many American families were affected by the draft, and thus had someone fighting “over there,” that a huge part of the nation had a stake in it. Today, on the other hand, only a relatively tiny percentage of the national population has someone in their family in harm’s way, meaning that the political constituency for just/sane/Constitutional warfare is too small to make any difference to the reigning kleptoligarchy.

eric,
you saw something on youtube, guess what, on youtube will also see the opposite.
There are a lot of things on youtube. But lets not generalize. I spent 20+ years in the military and they are some of the smartest people I know. As a matter of fact the military has the highest education level of any demographic in the united states. they are not automatrons like so many people think.

we did not invade and occupy any country in the middle east until after 9/11 -so what was the excuse then. The excuse is that muslims are required by their philosophy to convert the world to islam. It’s been that way for 1400 years. WWI stopped the expansion of the ottoman empire. the ottoman empire is islam. read the founding documents of the muslim brotherhood, the goal is the destruction of america.

gray man said: “we did not invade and occupy any country in the middle east until after 9/11 -so what was the excuse then”

Are you freaking kidding me?!

Hey mister history man, the US has invaded and occupied the middle east since WWII. Maybe not in the conventional military sense but with the same effect:

Supplying the military muscle to prop up the house of Saud at the expense of the rest of the Saudi people, the CIA overthrow of Iran in 1956, the instilling of dictators in Egypt and Iraq (yes Saddam used to be a US puppet), the sanctions against the Iraqi people (re: embargo aka an act of war) etc. (Not to even mention the whole Israel-can-do-no-wrong-against-any-and- all-its-neighbors foreign policy.)

Yeah, the US was just been minding its own business prior to 9/11…

And if we were not occupying Muslim Holy Land prior to 9/11, then how was it possible for the US Air Force base barracks in the Saudi Arabian city of Dhahra to be bombed in 1996?

Last time I checked, 1996 came before 2001.

“we did not invade and occupy any country in the middle east until after 9/11”

Only meddling in their affairs, invading territory, setting up military bases, and killing people since the 1950s.

Not to mention backing Israel’s acts of aggression and supporting oppressive governments.

Nah no reason to be pissed at all….

But I know one thing gray man, if someone did that to you and your family I think you’d be one of the first americans setting up IEDs on the local roads or any other act to get back at the meddlers and murderers.

“I didn’t merely “see something” on YouTube. I saw footage taken by a helicopter gunship slaughtering Iraqis. Despicable.”
that’s right you saw some footage, now don’t tell me that you are so nieve that you don’t realize that footage can be made to look like anything. You don’t know what was happening on the ground, or anything about the situation based on film .

@gray man:

I spent 20+ years in the military and they are some of the smartest people I know.

Considering your cognitive caliber, I suppose they would seem to be savants.

Out here in the real world, not so much.

@gray cat:

In this crowd, Mensa doesn’t cut it.

And–mensa or not, you have no reasoning skills, poor writing skills, and no insight.

Having failed the Trivium you consider “dipshit” a fitting riposte?

Mensa’s standards must be slipping…

One can get into Mensa by doing well on a standardized test, like the ACT or SAT. It has nothing to do with being able to think and reason, merely do as everywhere else and just be able to spit back to authority what they tell you. Think and problem solve the way they say so to arrive at the answers of convention. That’s of course if you’re not just some guy on the internet making a claim for the sake of making it.

Furthermore it’s funny how you argue by authority (and trivial authority at that) and then dismiss others’ arguments by saying their authority doesn’t mean anything. Rather amusing.

What a remarkably insightful and imaginative reply, even for a member of Mensa. Keep up the good work gray man! You’re proving our point better than we ever could. Me thinks thou hast spelt Mensa wrong though. Based on the intellectual level of that reply, “Mensa” should have been spelled Marine Corps.

“Basic training is designed to make you into a group think, shoot first ask questions later automaton.”

gray man’s response, “No one is treated like that.”

I do not know what military you were in but that is exactly what basic training is designed to do: condition the recruits to become as one and to follow orders on command.

The UCMJ is an absolute joke. the words military and justice are mutually exclusive.

If you really are all of the things you claim to be here, then you know damned good and well that this is EXACTLY what basic training does. Some of us here have been there – and want to ensure that no one else in the future is ever so victimized again.

It sure has Imperialist tendencies. While we haven’t actively conquered and colonized in recent years, we still have meddled to kill those who oppose us and install allegiances in foreign lands.

Tell that to the neocon authors of the PNAC.

We are, in every definition, an empire.

And like empires of the past, we are overextending ourselves militarily–bankrupting ourselves domestically.

And like empires of the past, the military will be/is being used against civilians.

Seen a “border” checkpoint lately? Armed Marines. Right here in Texas.

Where’s Posse Comitatus, gray man? Where’s the UCMJ and the Constitution?

Look, you have a noble view of the military and that’s fine. But today, it’s fantasy; the reality is, they’re being used for evil purposes and they’re not objecting.

based on……….?

Oh, of course not. It merely seeks to dominate and control as much of the earth as it feasible can. Extending NATO to the Urals…. demanding “regime change” in any country not toeing the U.S. line…. having “boots on the ground” in virtually every corner of the world…

“Seen a “border” checkpoint lately? Armed Marines. Right here in Texas.”
you keep whining about the military being all over the world, instead of being home protecting our borders, when they do that you whine some more.

@tiresome gray man:

Did I ever bitch that they’re not protecting the borders? No–and that’s a separate topic. Borders are an artificial construct, exactly like fences around a ranch, meant to keep the cattle contained.

But hell yes I object to “border” checkpoints–100 miles from any border!

Yes I object to the military enforcing “law” domestically; in case you didn’t know, it is illegal…and a long-standing harbinger of tyranny.

Yes I object to some wet-behind-the-ears little shit with wet dreams of being 82nd airborne pointing a loaded M-16 at my family in the car.

How would he feel if I pointed my Barrett at his skinny ass?

Because you see gray man, your wonderful sunshine-from-rectum military is being used as an occupying force…here in Amerika, and it’s going to get worse.

Why did they set up NORTHCOM?

Every one of those troops should have refused the order to deploy to an inland checkpoint. Period.

The old “it’s not -blank- when my team does it”

HAHAhAhahAA!

By any objective standard it is an empire.

Grits ain’t groceries.