There’s all this talk of “controlling” guns – that is, taking them away from everyone (except those wearing government costumes, ‘natch) but very little about controlling thugs. You know, the violent predators who create the reason – the necessity – for owning a gun in the first place. Here’s an example:
In gun-free DC, a thug produced a knife (not “controlled”) and proceeded to repeatedly stab his helpless – because disarmed – victim. The thug was not controlled.
Nor were the five thugs in Tulsa, OK who barged into the home of 66-year-old Bill Zachary and murdered the unarmed – and thus, helpless – older man. (News story here.)
Violent recidivism – the fancy term for thugs who continue to be thugs, committing one violent crime after the next – is absolutely uncontrolled. Here are some Department of Justice (sic) stats:
* Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
* Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
* Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
The revolving door of justice spins – meanwhile, the powers-that-be fixate on confiscating the revolvers of people who have never raised a finger at another human being.
The problem, in a nutshell, is not the guns. Everyone – anyone – with a room temperature IQ knows this, even if many will not admit this. The problem is thugs with guns (and without guns, too). Thugs. Violent predators. Control them – by removing them from circulation – and there will be no need for “controlling” guns.
Much less peaceful, innocent-of-wrongdoing people.
Yet, rather than impose draconian penalties upon people who have done something – something awful – and who therefore fully deserve to have something done to them, the efforts of our Dear Leaders are concentrated upon inflicting horrendous punishments and proscriptions upon people who have done – wait for it, now – absolutely nothing to warrant it. New York – which routinely releases murderers and rapists and thugs convicted of multiple brutal assaults (including serial rape) after serving picayune prison sentences, perhaps a handful of years (if that) now threatens – no, promises – to imprison honest citizens whose only “crime” is to be found in possession of the means of defending themselves against the thugs recirculated among them. Thugs who are without doubt emboldened in their thuggery because they know the honest citizens have been cowed into helplessness, having surrendered their arms for fear of being imprisoned if caught in possession of arms. Maryland, Colorado – perhaps the entire nation – seems ready to follow suit – criminalizing the non-criminal while ignoring the actually criminal.
It is insane.
Punishing people who haven’t done anything because others have (or might) … while failing to adequately deal with those who have done something. Horrendous things. Multiple things. Can anything conceivably be more criminal? Bad things will happen. This cannot be prevented. But once they do happen, to not act to prevent a similar thing from happening again – ever – that is the sine qua non of criminal negligence. And one does not prevent bad things from happening by harassing the people who haven’t done anything bad.
The typical violent thug has a lengthy record of thuggery – and these are just the handful of incidents known to us by dint of the thug’s having been caught/prosecuted/convicted – which criminologists will tell you constitutes a mere fraction of the typical thug’s activities. For every assault conviction on a given thug’s record, the thug probably committed dozens of others. Same for rapists – and killers. These data are not in question.
Yet nothing is done.
Or rather, much less is done to control thugs than what’s being proposed (and already enacted) as far as “controlling” their victims – actual and potential. Raped women are being told they may not posses a gun to defend themselves against rapists. Elderly people are threatened with prison – for using a gun to ward off thugs barging into their homes…
It is an outrage – the world turned’ upside down. The time has come to set it right:
Rescind every law denying honest citizens their natural right to possess a gun – any gun. Impose severe penalties upon any person convicted of using a gun to threaten or harm another person (excepting self-defense). Invade a home with a gun in your hand? Mandatory 25 years in prison, without any chance for parole. In addition to whatever time is levied for the actual home invasion. Actually use the gun – whether the gun was fired or not – 50 years. Shoot someone with it – life.
Or better yet, death.
It is time – long past time – to take out the trash.
“Gun crime” would become a non-problem within a handful of years if the human predators who have rendered American cities and towns uninhabitable were systematically and efficiently – and fairly – dealt with.
Yet the thugs – the violent predators among us – will not be dealt with. Because our Dear Leadership would rather deal with us. The Dear Leaders – Bloomberg, Obama, Schumer, Feinstein, et al – regard us as far more dangerous than the thugs who prey on decent people. Because these Dear Leaders – being secure in their protective bubbles, surrounded by their armed Praetorians – understand that thugs are not a threat to them. And they could not possibly care less that they are a threat to us.
Perhaps worse, though, is the depressing fact that the Dear Leadership can count on tremendous support from a large number of emotionally and intellectually crippled average people – people who have more sympathy for predatory thugs than they do for people – friends and neighbors, fellow citizens – who have never harmed them or given any reason to even suspect they might.
These useful idiots, as Lenin surely would have described them, are endlessly willing to give a second (and third and fourth) chance to known thugs who are “getting their lives together.” Who will – statistically – almost certainly ruin yet another victim’s life once released (again). But these same people have “zero tolerance” for their fellow citizens who dare to assert their right not to be defenseless against the much-loved thug class.
Enough.
How about zero tolerance for thuggery – and for those who coddle thugs, who insist on giving them the benefit of every doubt, indulging every excuse . . . while demanding that non-thugs be treated worse than the system treats the real thing?
Let’s put people who commit violent acts in jail – instead of threatening non-violent people with jail.
It makes too much sense to ever happen, I know.
Throw it in the Woods?
Criminal make government money and the Government is scared of people to be honest. They are cowards and if they did that the country will be over run. They pay the system when they get arrested. other wise there will be less money, less child sex for them and drugs to do and cars to buy with hookers. The government doesnt want a fix it doesnt want you comfortable. It acts an engagement to war as well keeps you stressed in case of warm, if youre comfy you will be softer. its all a mind game. good luck . hopefully one day the country will be taught a lesson in some sense to stop being so arrogant and cruel to the people. Thugs do need to be wiped out. protestors as well need to be burried in dirt.
Suche. Suchen und zerstören! – Металлика
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUoWZ_zcPpE
Alright…
We’re scanning the scene. In the city tonight
We’re looking for you. To start up a fight
There is an evil feeling. In our brains
But it’s nothing new. You know it drives us insane
Running. On our way. Hiding. You will pay. Dying. 1,000 deaths.
Searching. Seek and Destroy
There is no escape. And that’s for sure. This is the end
We won’t take any more. Say goodbye. To the world you live in
You’ve always been taking. And now you’re giving
Our brains are on fire. With the feeling to kill
And it won’t go away. Until our dreams are fulfilled
There is only one thing. On our minds
Don’t try running away. Cause you’re the one we will find
Searching. Seek and Destroy. Ah ha ha ha ha…
-hier kommen die matrixidal psycorphants
We’re all living in Amerika. Amerika ist wunderbar!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAM3rIBG5k
Wherever dancing is permitted, Amerika will lead, teaching each one to dance alone, under control. Showing all the proper love dance of consumer freedom, Mickey Mouse plays all violins in sync from the White House to Paris. Mickey Mouse dances the steps that benefit and protect, he sends Santa Claus from the North Pole all the way down to Africa. Now you have lost your mother tongue, say Coca Cola, say Wonderbra. Say Amerika ist wunderbar.
An Inspiring Video of Diving Giraffes
http://videos.arte.tv/de/videos/5-80-meter-von-nicolas-deveaux–7389218.html
Marcus Hook, PA mayor, James Schiliro is a member of Michael Bloombergs’ “Mayors Against Illegal Guns.” James is one of several mayors who has run into trouble with the law. Mayor Craig Lowe, mayor of Gainesville, FL, who appeared in a gun-control commercial with Mayor Bloomberg, was recently arrested for DUI at the scene of a crash where he was found by the Highway Patrol asleep behind the wheel of his car. Other charges against mayors in the group include: corruption, assaulting a police officer, and child sex crimes.
James, like most other vicious tyrants aligned with Bloomberg, is used to getting his way no matter how ruthlessly he needs to use force and official power to achieve his objective regardless of the human cost.
The problem with Mayor Schiliro, isn’t his misuse of power, but rather that his most recent objective was to intimidate a 20-year-old man to have gay sex with him against his will. First, James offered the man some liquor and made physical sexual advances, which were resisted.
Second, he brandished his collection of legally owned firearms to convince the man how serious he was about his goal. Finally, when all his charm, alcohol, guns, and official intimidation failed to do the trick, James Schiliro decided to make a last ditch effort in a final act of forced conjugation. He fired his 9 mm handgun into a wall in an attempt to communicate his intentions. He even informed the man that he was “going to be a hostage,” and that he’d ordered the police to stay away from the house no matter what happened for the rest of the night. This makes it clear just how much is at stake, and how important it is for us all to retain our firearms and not surrender one inch to these costumed psychopaths.
http://www.inquisitr.com/593848/mayor-against-illegal-guns-arrested-in-gun-related-incident-video/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnPuzg3TpO8
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/03/22/news/doc514bcad2abd4d885281354.txt
Dear Tor,
The reality is so bizarre if it weren’t already on the record, Clovers would accuse libertarians of making it up!
un-be-fucking-lievable, Tor!
And Bevin–they’ll accuse of that anyway, because they cannot accept the cognitive dissonance of their Big Brave Daddy Government being a costumed psychopath after all.
If they could see 1/10 of what happens at Bohemian Grove, for instance…
Tor this incident is mild compared to what goes on in the upper echelons. Sandusky, anyone? Sodomizing young boys in a university gym shower–and “nobody knew”? There’s apparently a market among the “elite” for pedophile snuff films.
It’s as though whatever energy is feeding on them cannot be satisfied, and the debasements must grow ever more disgusting and base to gorge the psychic maw.
Indeed, Tor–never give up your guns.
And on that note–Good news for now, the background check bill failed in the Senate
But don’t let down your guard. These bastards are salivating for power and they will not let the guns stand.
Dear meth,
And Bevin–they’ll accuse [us] of that anyway
They will indeed.
Reports are the bombs were filled with “black powder, available at gun stores everywhere.”
How much ya wanna bet “our” legislators will be demanding “controls on the sale of gun powder?”
Not that it would make any difference at this point–I’ve had some rifle powder on backorder for two months at Midway.
Though I must say, the ammo supply seems to be loosening just a little. Wish I could say the same for the prices!
I wonder if they’ll go after the ammo. After all given Obomber’s past, he’d like to go for a back-door attack.
Dear Meth,
Based on Tor’s expose about Hizzoner, apparently a lot of TPTB go for the “back door attack.”
My life preservation protocols have been my greatest weapons thus far.
Im not sure what to do during this stoppage of the world economy, however.
I hope I get Cooronavirus
http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=coronavirus
Costumed Thug Steve Ermis grabs a man’s legal firearm without warning, illegally detains him, and arrests for a ridiculous crime of carrying a weapon rudely.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=881_1366142313
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8r4MK3R4PI
The man was out hiking with his 15 year old son in a unpopulated area trying to earn a hiking merit badge. It seems he is charged with carrying his weapon in a rude manner, IIRC?
The thug’s supervisor was Sgt. Minnick Temple, TX Police Dept.
Chief Gary Smith, Chief of Police
209 E. Avenue A, Temple, TX 76501. Tele: (254)-298-5500
http://www.ci.temple.tx.us/index.aspx?nid=276
Excellent Tor, thank you! I was going to call this morning but didn’t get to look up the numbers.
Great work. I’m going to call and firmly suggest said Chief place boot firmly up ass of said Sgt, and said Sgt then place his boot, in turn, firmly up ass of said Thug.
The legal standard in Texas is:
That applies to carrying a long gun openly. What this guy was doing was completely and totally within reason; there wasn’t even a nearby Clover hyperventilating “Call 911! Call 911! Call 911! Call 911!”
Officer Fuckhead’s ass is grass if this guy gets a semi-decent lawyer…and I sincerely hope he does.
I was just about to share this, I’m glad I looked through the comments again though.
Three hours ago, when I first saw this, it only had ~300 views. I’m soooooo glad that number is closer to 800000 now. Video disgusted me.
I thought of the Thug Control article while reading this bit:
“… Does anyone feel protected by police and prosecutors? Better yet, it seems appropriate to ask: Who will protect innocent citizens from the predations of police and prosecutors hellbent on framing innocent people for crimes, sometimes even “crimes” that never were committed?” …
Who Will Protect Us From the ‘Protectors’?
http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson363.html
Oh wait, you guys already know this. It’s the other people I’m surrounded by that have no clue,… er, they refuse to have a clue, that is.
Cue Jon Rappoport:
“… At the root inside the root, people aren’t stupid. They choose to be stupid. They aren’t asleep. They decide to go to sleep. They don’t forget. They make themselves forget. They aren’t simply fooled. They fool themselves on purpose.
Then they look out on the world for confirmation of their own acts of sabotage. And they see institutions that have been built on the same blueprint as their own, and they support such institutions and rely on them.
“Yes, the world is fake and so am I, and we must do everything possible to keep it that way.” …
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/down-in-the-psyche-of-the-individual-there-still-burns-a-flame/
I just can’t escape feeling you folks don’t get it. The society you live in *is* anarchy. A bunch of people do whatever they want to you and you put up with it because they have bigger guns than you do and there are more of them. It’s no different than “Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome”. You’re living in Barter Town.
You can piss and moan about it all you want, you aren’t going to change it. The US is run by organized crime. You’d like disorganized crime? OK. Unlikely but OK.
Bitch all you want. Piss into the wind. It won’t make any difference and the world you strive to achieve just happens to be the one you already live in.
You believe in the Non Aggression Principle, good on ya! So did Siddartha (eventually). You’re a minority 🙂
No, we put up with it because using OUR guns is more expensive right now than the putting-up-with…and because 95% of our neighbors are so god-damned stupid they think it’s all hunky-dory.
THAT’S why we “put up with it”–at least on the surface.
I can’t speak for everyone, but inside, it’s a whole different story. Inside, I’m steeling myself for some very serious times. I’m steeling myself and my family; ensuring we won’t starve, ensuring I’m slightly more than adequately armed.
Ensuring I have the physical skills to survive.
And ensuring that I have the correct mental attitude to act quickly, decisively, and forcefully when bad moments come.
Meanwhile, we “piss and moan” not out of self-pity, but to turn that 95% figure into 70% or less.
Because when it’s 30/70–hell, even 20/80 would be winnable–it’s on.
The fuckers are losing already. Look at the sheer desperation; the failing memes (War! War! War! Fear! Fear! Fear! Loss! Loss! Loss!), the plans laid a hundred years ago exposed fully for all to see–and more and more with eyes, seeing them. Those plans laid a hundred years ago, patiently implemented like a stove with a thousand settings from “Off” to “Boil”, suddenly turned up the last three hundred notches in four years.
They’re going to lose.
The question is how quickly we awaken others. If VERY quickly, we can prosecute the criminals and turn it around before it’s Very Very Bad. If we have to wait for it to get Very Very Bad before the dumbasses around us wake up–because it’s Very Very Bad–then it will get Truly Bad.
It’s already Bad. Look around; the country’s imploding. It’s that lovely old downtown theater that was an architectural marvel, “Now with Air Conditioning!” fifty years ago; today a drab run-down nightclub with puke-encrusted floors shit-bespeckled bathrooms and a sleazy tranny bouncing at the door. Yeah, Janet Napolitano, that’s you, dyke bitch.
It’s not anarchy. It’s tyranny.
Just what are YOU doing to fix it, Badger? To make it better? To convict and eventually execute the criminals who did this? To survive it to teach the other survivors how not to fuck it all up again?
“To survive it to teach the other survivors how not to fuck it all up again?”
Goddam, meth. Don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think. ahaha
Tell you what, ol’ fellow former FReeper. I’m old. I won’t survive a lot of hassle, and my feeble preps that I’ve been able to manage will likely be wasted or abandoned by those who survive me.
I gave up hoping to teach anyone anything, especially how not to fuck up. Part of the reason for that is that I have no idea how not to fuck up. Another part of it is that I think people who want to know will make an effort to learn. People who don’t want to know… well, fuck’em and feed’em fish heads.
Anyway, I think Badger is just fucking with us, but what do I know?
Ed, “fuck ’em and feed ’em fish heads”? Now that’s classic.
I’m also a big fan of “I gave up hoping to teach anyone anything, especially how not to fuck up. Part of the reason for that is that I have no idea how not to fuck up.”
We could just ban together, make up Meth’s 30% (or even 20!) and go out in a blaze of glory. It would be very Japanese. But he points out the obvious, the reason we live under tyranny is 95% of the folks down the street could care less.
In “the good old days” (which to my recollection never really existed) people didn’t like J. Edgar Hoover and weren’t turning in the funny looking guy that hung out in front of the hardware store because of it. Nope, never happened. Aye! Them were days laddie!
Point is, repression doesn’t end in gunfire or revolution, that’s a myth. Repression ends when people stop repressing other people. But anyway, I was just fucking with ya! 🙂
Yep, the good ol’ days seem good to me because I was too stoned (and too young and unperceptive) to see what was going on around me.
Reading contemporary accounts of what was happening in my home state of SC during the time my great-great granpa was prohibited by law from carrying a firearm, and forbidden by law to associate with his former brothers-in-arms, by the military occupation government, I can see that this shit is nothing new.
That repression finally ended when the robbers had gotten everything they could get. That occupation lasted for 12 years. It’s hard to imagine. Maybe I’d have the stones to do as Great,Great- Granpa did, and resist openly, by riding armed with other former cavalrymen. Maybe I wouldn’t, who knows?
Things have to be viewed within the context of history. This repression has been in place at least since 1865. Government at every level has grown to the point that it is now incrementally. It has been advanced relentlessly with no abatement. People who are just now waking up to it tend to get all excited about it. That’s understandable, I guess.
It’s anarcho-tyranny. The very definition of it. Where the political and ruling classes have no rules while everyone else is strictly controlled.
The argument you are making reminds me of the argument I make when someone tells me to go live in Somalia or some such. I make it clear that Somalia is not anarchy, it’s several groups fighting to establish a government.
You are being unfair to Bartertown IMO. Bartertown aimed to avoid the mistakes of today’s government systems. “Fighting leads to killing, and killing gets to warring. And that was damn near the death of us all. Look at us now, busted up and everyone talking about hard rain. But we’ve learned by the dust of them all. Bartertown’s learned. Now when men get to fighting, it happens here. And it finishes here.”
Disputes were settled in thunderdome. “Two men enter, one man leaves”. Contract law was absolute. “Bust a deal, face the wheel”. Control of Bartertown was between Aunty who aimed to build civilization and Master who kept the lights running. We should only be so lucky as today’s political class aims to turn the lights off and destroy civilization. Bartertown was as a foil to today’s systems.
But why do we put up with it? Because by and large we are atomized and alone. Scattered. There are many people who agree with us but are afraid to speak because of the perception of social consequences. The more we speak the safer it becomes for them to speak. If all we do is normalize the discussion of our views in public that vastly undermines the desires of the PTB.
Dear Brent,
I make it clear that Somalia is not anarchy, it’s several groups fighting to establish a government.
Bingo!
We really do need conceptual precision. Otherwise we wind up talking past each other.
Somalia does not have Market Anarchism. It has the CHAOS that results when rival thugs attempt to become “The Government.”
Not the same thing at all.
The Icelandic Republic had Market Anarchism. Somalia does not.
I’ve noticed that some of the threads here fell into speculation about “Is Market Anarchism Even Possible?”
The answer is “YES!”
Market Anarchism existed for three centuries in medieval Iceland. This was an historical fact. Market Anarchism is NOT Utopian fantasy. It existed before. It can exist again. It merely requires political awakening.
Dear Brent,
But why do we put up with it? Because by and large we are atomized and alone. Scattered. There are many people who agree with us but are afraid to speak because of the perception of social consequences. The more we speak the safer it becomes for them to speak. If all we do is normalize the discussion of our views in public that vastly undermines the desires of the PTB.
A crucial point! One that I have also harped on.
This normalization of opposition to Marxism is what led to to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the implosion of the Warsaw Pact governments, often without firing a shot.
It can be done! Change is possible.
Incorrect again, my unenlightened one. I truly mean no sarcasm or a putdown, but in seeing real liberty one must first, like putting on a new pair of eyes, learn to see the world how it truly is. Market Anarchism existed for three centuries in a time when economic functionality was being experimented with, and was able to thrive without governmental propaganda dis-information being taught on every level to generation after generation. You see there are certain narratives that exist within this society now, narratives that are part of every one’s shared experiences (ie, school, nationalism, sports, camraderie), that cannot be separated from one’s “individual” experiences. It is because of this that it is impossible to go back to the “good old days.” first you would need to find a place, separate from any governmental interference, and move all people of like-minds there; then make sure everyone is on the same page, set up schooling for your children, make sure that as the get older they cannot be tainted with the outside lies and propaganda of the seduction of socialism, because it does seduce, and continue teaching everyone that to think is first to know how to think using logic, as well as knowing how to calm and strengthen the mind through contemplation and meditation. Change is possible only through actual change, not partial change implemented upon incongruencies and disaster. In order to for to build a new house on a plot of land that already has a house on it, I cannot build my house on top of that house, or on top of half of the house. I must first destroy the house, then dig my own foundation, the foundation I envision for my future, and then I build.
All this can be read about in the Libertarian’s Dilemma:
http://rathbonezvizionz.wordpress.com/
Incorrect again, my unenlightened one. I truly mean no sarcasm or a putdown,
Oh yeah, I can see that.
“Change is possible only through actual change, not partial change implemented upon incongruencies and disaster. ”
That’s how I see it as well. I also think that there’s been a lot of change that has gone unremarked. What happens at the level of individual work is what interests me most, and is also what seems to go unnoticed by many writers.
Large societal changes, it appears to me, come as a result of years or even decades of changes made by individuals pursuing their own ends in their own fashions. The idea of sweeping changes accomplished by the heroic efforts to inform the masses undertaken by those widely regarded as leaders isn’t convincing or even interesting to me.
I’m not a joiner, and being a follower isn’t appealing to me, either. The best I’m able to envision doing is to pursue my own interests, for my own reasons.
Ed that’s a concise expression of von Mises’ “human action”, aka praxeology–the only TRUE study of economics.
Yes, most of us here try to persuade, educate, proselytize our neighbors.
But in the end what moves civilization is individual human action.
So tomorrow I’ll go to the range with my Dad who, bless his heart*, requires a little practice. I’ll bring along my dentist friend who’s rapidly becoming an ex-libtard.
In so doing I’ll be supporting the range with my business; showing others an example of gun fun; buying ammunition; and evangelizing an ex-libtard.
Then I’ll swing by a local farm that sells raw milk and grass-fed beef…depriving Big Agra of my valuable business and supporting local REAL food.
Millions of us doing the same have already changed the country!
Look at it; did you even hear about raw milk twenty years ago? Were AR-15’s harder to buy than bigfoot poop? Did an assault weapons ban pass twenty years ago…and does the same ban have even a glimmer of hope today?
We’re winning.
It’s so slow it’s hard to see, but just like the PTB’s desperate flailings of late, it’s accelerating.
Imagine the craggy granite face of a mountain; the cracks filled with water. An overnight freeze takes temperatures well below zero–and the impregnable granite face chips, cracks, and falls.
We’re water–millions of molecules associating naturally, and in so doing creating an irresistible force.
* “bless his heart”–phrase used for cover of veiled or overt insults in Texas. “That baby is the ugliest thing I’ve ever seen, bless his heart“
“you put up with it ”
Now, Badger. How do you know who is putting up with what? People would be pretty stupid to admit otherwise on a public forum. Most people posting here don’t really strike me as stupid.
You could give your fellow humans a little credit, if you’re of a mind to. 😉
“What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.”
Adolf Hitler
methylamine said:
“But you’d notice a marked improvement in civility–especially on the part of the costumed Stasi enforcers.”
The whole point is that there would be NO “stasi enforcers” anymore. 🙂
America is a rich land with a blessed bounty of many thugs. Truly a land of plenty where God sheds his grace on us all. A great country, where even a mixed-race cuckold-bastard can be president and leader of the world harvest of the strange and bitter fruits of justice.
I couldn’t agree more that thug control is badly needed. It’s not something we CAN’T do, it’s something we WON’T do. Here’s why:
First, thug control is raaaaaay-cist! Thug behavior is rampant in the ghettos and barrios. Lest you think it’s only a black and brown thing, thug behavior is also prevalent on the reservation, as well as among “poor white trailer trash” and Asian “boat people.” Thugs come in all colors. But thanks to dysfunctional cultures that fail to emphasize hard, honest work and study, you’d find that most of the thugs would be minorities. And we can’t have that, now can we?
Second, thug control is mean-spirited. Witness the flack that Sheriff Joe Arpaio gets when he has the nerve to make the prisoners under his custody do something productive other than watch HBO and lift weights. Making punishments tough and unpleasant might, heaven forbid, wound some poor victim’s inner child. After all, thugs get that way because of our racist, money-grubbing, mean society, right?
Third, thug control puts a lot of people out of work. As mentioned before, there’s a huge parasitical industry built around crime. It’s on a par with what’s known as the “military-industrial” complex. From private prisons to security systems, companies like Corrections Corporation of America, Pinkerton, and ADT would be drowning in red ink, and our unemployment problem would get worse…can’t have that now!
And finally, thug control would mean that we’d have to, oh, the horror, change our culture to stop glorifying thuggishness! That means that 95% of rap music would disappear overnight! It also means that we’d have to tell people to behave better and complain less…can you imagine it?
And yet, most people continue to “elect” thugs, agree to pay the non-elected sort those thugs hire… and obey most of the immoral, illegal and irrational “laws” those thugs impose.
Could people actually stop doing that and take back ownership of their lives? Yep, I can imagine that.
“Rap music,” however idiotic, has nothing to do with it.
“And yet, most people continue to “elect” thugs…”
ROFL! Nobody has been “elected” to national office in this country for a LONG ,LONG ,LONG ,LONG ,LONG time! The correct term is selected…just sayin…
There is still some election going on. If the non selected canidate can pull say 80-90% of the votes he may win by a couple percentage points or so.
The poor downtrodden thugs are victims of da ebil slabery. They be deservin’ reparations ‘n shit for something that happened 200 years ago. Instead of a gun free zone sign how about a sign with a stickman armed with a rifle saying trained firearms expert on premises any attempts to harm will be met with deadly force. I know about as likely as tits on a boar hog.
Ed, there was a time when I would have totally agreed with you. I still do in the context of there being insurmountable and damning evidence of the guilt of the lynching target. However…all too often folks take circumstantial evidence, ignorance of the facts and even the appearance of the target (tattoos, peircings, dark skin, funny hats, etc.) and run wild with it.
For instance, let’s say the old woman at the end of the lane looked at your family “funny” as you walked by to go to church. Then your milk cow went dry, your baby boy came down with “the croup” and your teenage daughter started “seeing things” all in the same week. What might a wise and prudent man conclude? “That old woman’s a witch! Burn her!” Nevermind that you’ve had a particularly dark and damp growing season, fungus has covered the wheat and barley, the baby is reacting to mold spores and your daughter, having ingested Ergot contaminated grain is now tripping. That’s the problem with jumping to conclusions.
It’s quite different if the armed thug is in your home at 3:00 AM with a crowbar in his hand standing over your daughter’s bed. You’re not jumping to conclusions and you don’t have time to mull over other possibilities. You simply shoot the thug. But if you just get a look at him as he’s jumping out the window and have a rough description, you can’t go round up the nearest available 165 lb., 5’10” male in a grey hoody and blue jeans and “string him up.” Not unless you want that done to you.
There is a reason that juries are still a good idea and that evidence should be “beyond a reasonable doubt” when convicting someone. That’s not the system we have now, I must concede. But vigilante “private justice” isn’t the answer either unless it’s at the time of the crime (i.e. self defense). I’d really rather see 100 hardened criminals walk free, than for you or me to be wrongfully “strung up” or caged based on the neighbors’ hear-say and suppositions.
Justice is all too often social. Much like the laws and their enforcement. Juries rarely work properly today because their purpose has been lost and they have become expressions of the state and the social belief systems pushed through the media.
Are you well-liked? Well you can get away with just about anything. Are you a sympathetic character? At least in perception of others? Well they’ll go easy on you. What you say you’re in ordinary guy? Well you know there’s a nice plea bargain for you if you admit guilt. The jury will likely throw away the key. Whadda mean you’re someone the public doesn’t like? You’re an odd ball? You come from the ghetto? You once partook in certain substances? Well forget about you… you’re doomed.
It’s really in functionality not all that much different than it was at the time of witch trials. The government even has informants to accuse people of being witches to get the ball rolling.
I agree about how a jury should work. It just seems today that is a rather rare condition. Then there are the prosecutors and cops looking to advance their careers.
What we got today really isn’t all that far removed from just grabbing the nearest guy who meets or even does not meet the vague description.
I agree BrentP: Modern juries are typically a rubber stamp for the cops, the prosecutor and the judge. They are nothing more than a tool for “the system” these days. So your assessment that a properly functioning jury is a rarity remains sadly true. Even so, once in awhile a recalcitrant libertarian / anarchist makes it onto the panel and gums up the works. This is why it is essential that all jurors be fully informed as to their rights and responsibilities.
The reason I used the old hag at the end of the lane analogy is because modern “justice” is very much like the witch hunts of yore. But vigilante justice is no better, just quicker. We don’t have a whole lot of choice these days. Lynching is bad. The justice system / prison industrial complex is bad. Until we have a major upheaval and subsequent correction, I doubt any of it is going to get better. Of course based on the past performance of mankind, that won’t last long (reference Eric’s note about four generations above) even if it happens.
I’m at the point now where I approach life much the same way as I approach motorcycle riding. My head’s on a swivel. I’m in combat. I have no armor or weapons. The strangers around me are potential adversaries. I use my wits and powers of observation to secure my safety and avoid confrontations…whether the potential combatants be uniformed / badged or actual “legitimate” criminals. I strive to be as wise as the serpent and as gentle as a dove. It’s working very well for me so far.
Boothe wrote, “But vigilante justice is no better”
Are you certain of this? Take a minute to read the rest of these two bits, if you will:
The Culture of Violence in the American West: Myth versus Reality
“… the western frontier “was a far more civilized, more peaceful and safer place than American society today” (1974, x). Terry Anderson and P. J. Hill affirm that although “[t]he West . . . is perceived as a place of great chaos, with little respect for property or life,” their research “indicates that this was not the case; property rights were protected and civil order prevailed. Private agencies provided the necessary basis for an orderly society in which property was protected and conflicts were resolved” (1979, 10).” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo195.html
Judge Napolitano on the Virtues of Private Justice
… “Think about it. If you steal my chicken or I steal your cow, this is a dispute between us; what does the government care about it? The answer should be it doesn’t care at all but because the state loves power and the state does not like to share power, it likes to resolve all disputes the way it wants to resolve them. This drives up the cost and diminishes justice because it forces the disputants to follow the state’s rule and the state’s command and the state’s way, and this does not inure to politeness, civility or even the idea that a dispute could possibly be resolved amicably and justly, without the state being involved.
The state is not an instrument of justice; it’s an instrument of power. It holds itself out as an instrument of justice, and many of my former colleagues on the bench still believe it is an instrument of justice and jurors believe it’s an instrument of justice and trial courts believe they are instruments of justice, but basically they are wrong; they are instruments of power – the state’s power, the way the state wants it exercised.” …
http://www.thedailybell.com/4257/Anthony-Wile-Judge-Napolitano-on-the-Virtues-of-Private-Justice
Funny DS, I had a dissenting opinion on this very subject recently. I was listening to a cowboy poet/songwriter and singer do an introduction to one of the ballads he wrote, it was Dave Stamey’s “The Bandit Joaquin”.
About a 150 years ago there was a horse thief in California that went by the name Joaquin. He was a “Mexican Terrorist” I suppose. The State of California put a price on his head and group of thugs led by a retired cavalry captain set out looking for him at the request of the State legislature. They had six months to find him and time was running short when they came on a few Mexicans in the mountains near Coalinga that had some horses. They shot three of them, cut off the head of one, then road back to Benicia (then State Capital of California) with it to claim their reward. Private Justice had been served, the bandit Joaquin was dead.
Except no one really knows it was Joaquin.
Dear DS,
… what does the government care about it? The answer should be it doesn’t care at all but because the state loves power and the state does not like to share power, it likes to resolve all disputes the way it wants to resolve them.
Exactly.
That is why it wants to confiscate all privately held firearms even if it leaves us Mere Mundanes defenseless.
Its monopoly on power, not our personal security, is its real concern, its real priority.
Hence:
Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
… the court decided that Warren was not entitled to remedy at the bar despite the demonstrable abuse and ineptitude on the part of the police because no special relationship existed. The court stated that official police personnel and the government employing them owe no duty to victims of criminal acts and thus are not liable for a failure to provide adequate police protection unless a special relationship exists.
The case was dismissed by the trial court for failure to state a claim and the case never went to trial.[3]
How does this square with the slogan “To Protect and Serve” on the side of police vehicles?
It doesn’t. But the state and those who are part of it, don’t give a fuck.
Umm, “at the request of the State legislature.” <- Where's the perception of 'private justice' in that picture?
Seems like state sanctioned murder same as it is today.
Many innocent people are put to death by the state today. The point I was making is, today there is little to no incentive for actual justice, and what system was in place in the past was better than what we have now.
Was there another point to “The Bandit Joaquin”?
@DownshiftFast5to1 “Are you certain of this? Take a minute to read the rest of these two bits…”
Yes DS I am certain of this, for one reason only. The criminal justice system from cop to warden are merely humans. Lynch mobs and vigilantes are humans. Humans tend to be lazy, so they jump to conclusions, are often biased, xenophobic and pass judgment based on their own narrow personal experience base.
It’s far easier (and often politically expedient) to trump up charges against the wrong target, string him or her up and go back to the house in time for dinner, than it is to conduct a comprehensive investigation and let the chips fall where they may. Worse yet, to conduct an honest investigation may implicate some of the prominent folks in town (or their snot nosed brats) and we can’t have that, now can we?
As far as the old west being considerably more civilized than we are led to believe goes, that is a subject I’ve written about previously on these pages. Succinctly, in the spirit of Heinlein, an armed society is indeed a polite society. The old west was heavily armed and prudent folks were necessarily polite to one another.
Now, private justice as I understand it is a different matter than lynching or vigilante-ism. It would involve true free market institutions such as insurance companies, private security agencies and non-governmental arbitrators acting for the benefit of their voluntary paying customers. I find the concept very appealing. Unfortunately, it’s not an option yet in contemporary Amerika.
Where I live, we have membership fire departments. If you don’t pay your annual dues and your place catches fire, they’ll show up and keep the fire from spreading to your neighbors’ homes that did pay. But they let your shit burn. I voluntarily pay my dues. My neighbor didn’t. He lost a barn, a couple of tractors and some other rather expensive farm equipment. I’ve heard folks complain that it isn’t fair or it isn’t right. Bull. You want the service, pay for it yourself. It should be the same way with cops, letter carriers, judges, schools and any other free market function the state has monopolized.
The only advantage I can see to vigilantes and lynch mobs over gun-vernment thugs is that they are (a) quicker, (b) temporary and (c) localized. The state, on the other hand, tends to be perpetual, slow (unless they are covering up things they did) and pervasive. But if you are the individual victim of either, the distinctions of public or private actors will be wholly irrelevant to you as the noose is placed around your innocent neck. Strychnine and cyanide may be different, but they are both potent poisons and to argue with the victim of either as to which one is “better” seems ludicrous.
Dear Boothe,
But vigilante “private justice” isn’t the answer either unless it’s at the time of the crime (i.e. self defense). I’d really rather see 100 hardened criminals walk free, than for you or me to be wrongfully “strung up” or caged based on the neighbors’ hear-say and suppositions.
I agree with the content of the above statement. I too want some sort of “due process.”
But I don’t think it is appropriate to characterize the above as “private justice.” and to imply that absent the state, justice would be less secure rather than more.
No one wants to be railroaded. This universal desire will motivate everyone to devise a free market “private justice” system that works better, not worse than the state’s “public injustice” system.
“That old woman’s a witch! Burn her!” ”
Boothe, do the cops really restrain you or anyone you know from burning old ladies at the stake? That’s hardly an example of society policing itself, is it?
Really, I’m not suggesting a Star Chamber or mob action. Excuse me if I gave that impression. I wouldn’t be inclined to hang you unless I caught you trying to rape my daughter, or unless I chased you down after I had seen you do it. At any rate, you would only have to deal with me, not with a lynch mob. I’m not much of a joiner anymore.
“But vigilante “private justice” isn’t the answer either unless it’s at the time of the crime (i.e. self defense).”
Yes, I agree. Isn’t that what I was saying? Self defense… and, of course, immediate retaliation. That’s the ticket.
Yeah Ed, we’re on the same page. The cops don’t restrain shit from what I’ve seen. And it was often the cops of their day that rounded up that little old lady in the first place to be burned, stoned, dunked, etc. Around here anyway, too often the cops are the real thugs. The sad part is my fellow citizens (I don’t consider too many of them to be my peers) think the cops are doing a great job…along with the prosecutor and the judge. It makes me want to puke. The older I get, the more I believe in the 3S principle when it comes to dealing with a criminal privately: Shoot, shovel, shut up.
http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/remington-arms-says-it-will-stay-in-new-york/40817/
Hmmmm…
useful idiots
i read this thing on the internet long ago and see them every day.
The Fuzzy Logic Of Useful Idiots
http://www.blog2.tshirt-doctor.com/?p=17815
it’s goes on today
Attacking the Speaker – the New Normal
http://www.blog2.tshirt-doctor.com/?p=41881
Video: Disarmed Chicago Shop Owner Reduced to Using Stick to Fight Off Pistol-Wielding Armed Robbers
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=43536
Because to our elites–our Dear Leaders–the most severe crime, the one most harshly punished, is disobedience. What do they care if proles hurt proles?
Eric, we will have this problem until it becomes more dangerous to be a criminal than a victim.
Rich, we will have this problem until it becomes more dangerous to be a politician than a taxpayer.
Exactly so –
And I’d add: Until crime is once again understood to be an act that creates a victim. At which point, only criminals – the real McCoy – will occupy prison space.
One of the reasons so many real victims are loosed among us is because of the fact that so many non-criminals (in the sense of having created victims) are taking up cell space. There are literally millions of “drug offenders” in the system – whose non-crime was to use/possess/manufacturer/sell an arbitrarily-decreed-to-be-illegal “substance.”
And it’s the most important question we can ask ourselves. Do we own our lives, or have we given our sovereign and natural authority over ourselves to the rulers and politicians?
By What Legitimate Authority?
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/?page_id=1294
Sadly, it seems that far too few people today ask such a question of themselves. Indeed, any visceral urge to do so is probably blotted out of their minds. Why? Because even the malformed brainlets possessed by the majority quickly realize that self-ownership also means responsibility for one’s one life – ALL aspects of it. Once upon a time, this is something that most Americans not only believed in, but took for granted. Today, no. “Progressivism,” beginning in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, has done its job all too well. The “collective” now reigns supreme in what passes for the “minds” of the majority, the notion that “One Big Happy Family” will take care of everyone’s most basic needs. It took more than a century for this mindset to metastasize and will probably take another century to reverse, if it can be reversed at all. I’m cautiously optimistic that, at least here in Amerika, there’s a greater chance of that starting now than in any other time in the recent past, but the obstacles are still formidable.
It waxes and wanes, of course. The big problem with the “happy family” and all forms of socialism is that, eventually, they run out of other people’s money. The truly productive stop producing excess when it is simply stolen from them, and the number of non productive consumers quickly eat the seed corn…
Then, eventually, people are faced with the prospect of producing again, or starving to death when there’s nobody left to rob. It’s such a shame, when one thinks of how incredibly prosperous and peaceful the world could be if even a good proportion of ordinary folks became self owners/self responsible – and eliminated the controllers who claim that false “authority.”
Hi Mama,
This is a lesson that humanity seems doomed to never learn – or doomed to relearn, every four generations or so.
This is crude, but apt:
It only takes a spoonful of shit to ruin a gallon of ice cream.
Which is why we each need to make our OWN ice cream, either as individuals or voluntary associations. The “brand name” may taste very good… but you just never really KNOW… 🙂
“The whole concept of underprivileged seems to have been designed by people who perceive the universe from the perspective of a child prone to tantrums.”
I believe that there are many who may think this way, but the bottom line is actually much, much worse. The entire system of “government” we live with today is actually predicated on the idea that individuals are merely property of the collective, rather than self owners.
That is where “privileges” come from, of course. The “owners” – those in control of the collective – decide who is a “good dog,” and who is a “bad dog,” and act accordingly. They can give us a “treat,” or not… and will continue to do so as long as those they claim to own allow it.
And it’s the most important question we can ask ourselves. Do we own our lives, or have we given our sovereign and natural authority over ourselves to the rulers and politicians?
By What Legitimate Authority?
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/?page_id=1294
When I first read the title of this post, the first thought to come to mind was “Ahhh, FINALLY a suggestion to disarm, “de-costume,” and “de-badge” the REAL perpetrators of the majority of violent crime!” While I was at first disappointed to see that Eric didn’t mention these creatures specifically, upon second reading I definitely see nothing in the text describing thugs that excludes such creatures from both the description of the problem and the prescribed mitigation strategy.
Well written Eric!
Good article Eric, you ask important questions and made me think. I always enjoy that.
What has led us to this odd impasse? I’ll venture a thought; because we live in a society burdened by guilt for the underachiever? Does “guilt *for* the underachiever” even make sense? I can’t think of a better way to phrase it. I suppose a more politically correct monicker might be “underprivileged” but I can’t see how a person can be underprivileged myself. Privileged literally means “having special rights, advantages or immunities” so to not have enough of those things would seem to be the natural state of existence for anyone that wasn’t a spoiled brat. The whole concept of underprivileged seems to have been designed by people who perceive the universe from the perspective of a child prone to tantrums.
What it comes down to is they feel sorry for the “neglected” or “abused” child who grows up to be a serial rapist. They feel angst over punishing the poor soul who “couldn’t find a good job” and “turned to drugs and theft” in a depression. They apologize for the behavior of the “less fortunate”.
The irony is we don’t see ourselves as less fortunate but they figure if we have a place to live and a car and some stuff worth stealing we need to be charitable towards those who would rob, rape, beat and kill us for it. It’s just the white thing to do as Elmer Fudd would say. I don’t know exactly where the meme came from but I suspect it has roots in the neo-liberal movement from the 60’s. It’s a sort of a self-hating socialist theme made popular by vegetarians and global warming theorists. We should all die and make the world a safer place for sea otters, polar bears and Al Gore.
“It’s a sort of a self-hating socialist theme made popular by vegetarians and global warming theorists. We should all die and make the world a safer place for sea otters, polar bears and Al Gore.”
Actually, they aren’t self-haters at all. They hate the rest of us. You don’t see any of them volunteering for the dirt nap themselves. They want all the rest of humanity to die off instead, leaving them to live in some pristine world full of justice and light.
Prison is only slightly a better answer than nothing. Those incarcerated victimize everyone again, since taxpayers are robbed to support the criminals!
Ideally, justice would mean that the perpetrator of any attack on another would result in serious injury or death at the hands of their intended victim. The predator shouldn’t actually survive the first attempt…
Criminals want weak, helpless, even compliant victims. They generally do not want to risk injury – or even real inconvenience – themselves. Any consistent and effective resistance would reduce the number of predators exponentially.
It’s not just a matter of guns or other such weapons, however useful and even necessary they are. The most important self defense tool is the one between our ears. If people would use that brain and the proper tools – and eliminate the politically protected criminals, of course… the violent predator would soon become as rare as hen’s teeth.
Dear ML,
Ideally, justice would mean that the perpetrator of any attack on another would result in serious injury or death at the hands of their intended victim. The predator shouldn’t actually survive the first attempt…
Criminals want weak, helpless, even compliant victims. They generally do not want to risk injury – or even real inconvenience – themselves. Any consistent and effective resistance would reduce the number of predators exponentially.
My thinking exactly!
I’ve been pondering the implications of market anarchist justice for some time, and come to the same conclusions.
Many defenders of statist “justice” assume that market anarchism would somehow allow career criminals who flagrantly violate the NAP to get away with murder.
That is exactly wrong!
As the example circulated a while back on this forum underscored, the statist “justice” system punishes the victims, not the offenders in “prole on prole” violence.
To wit, the fate of Tony Martin, who is serving a life sentence in England for shooting two intruders in his house.
http://thechinadesk.blogspot.tw/2013/01/wake-up-america.html
Under market anarchist justice, career criminals who violate the NAP would wind up like those in the Charles Bronson vigilante justice classic “Death Wish.”
Death Wish, Trailer
Death Wish, Full Film
The statist “justice” system is the biggest obstacle in the way of true justice.
Dear ML,
In fact, prisons provide weight training regimens for inmates, so they will be more muscular and capable of physically overpowering decent citizens when they are paroled.
The simple fact is that government needs criminals outside of government to justify its existence.
This is why it keeps a harmless pot smoker or grower in prison for decades but has a revolving door for violent criminals.
Violent criminals are needed by the government to crack down upon and rule the majority. These criminals are needed to get much of this non-violent majority to want, to accept, to consent to being ruled over.
A common thread with libertarian minded people I have found is that they had an experience or experiences that dispelled the conditioned notion that government protects us. That is they learned first hand the reality of the situation. It could be a lazy cop that didn’t followup on a property crime, a school that let thuggish kids do as they pleased but punished kids who fought back, calling 911 only for the cops to take three hours to show up, and so forth and so on. Meanwhile others have the same experiences and make convoluted excuses to maintain their belief system.
Government needs criminals and criminals will always get guns in the USA. Always. Even in the face of a total ban. History tells us that government in the USA will either look the other way with regard to an illegal supply chain or provide the weapons to criminals itself. It needs these foils to go forward with the social engineering agenda those with influence over government want. Without dangerous scary criminals and foreign actors there isn’t reason for a growing and ever more powerful government.
If government simply convicted and incarcerated the tiny percentage of real criminals in the population it too would be tiny and relatively with little power over everyday people. Thus it will not do its basic job for it undermines the careers, the paychecks, and the desires of people who make their livelihood or exercise their desire to control others or shape society via the state.
The simple fact is that government needs criminals outside of government to justify its existence.
This is why it keeps a harmless pot smoker or grower in prison for decades but has a revolving door for violent criminals.
BINGO!
As part of the same strategy, government also needs to keep the general populace (a.k.a. “sheeple”) in a constant state of fear from these predators in order to justify more power for itself. Ergo, the “revolving door” “justice” system. Given that “sheeple” generally never assume complete responsibility for their own lives, and most certainly not for their own self-defense, this is a very easy thing to do. Given also that sheeple have blind, unquestioning trust in government (“Why, my government would NEVER do anything against my best interests!”), despite government’s overtly predatory behavior, the State can rest assured of its ability to assume unlimited powers. “Contracting” the catalyst for this out to “private sector” criminals, most of whom are only too eager to cooperate (and far too stupid to see how they too are being manipulated by TPTB) is the easiest –and cheapest– way to do this.
There is a lucrative industry around the “correctional facilities” (Prisons). Private companies and prison guard unions, as well as wardens and administrators, make BILLIONS off of the astronomical (per-capita) incarceration rate, especially for victimless activities. And I have a sneaking suspicion that the criminal elements (street gangs like the Crips, Gangster Disciples, MS13, Nortenos, Surenos, Latin Kings, Bloods etc) are the equivalent of SHOCK TROOPS for the ruling oligarchs. Hey, if Lenin, Ortega, Mugabe, Chavez and Hitler could use the low life elements to foment revolution and anarchy, could our own government take a page from the playbook?
I still cannot understand why so many Americans of Japanese and Italian ancestry could be so quick to give up their guns, in light of the “relocation” services provided by FDR in the 1940s. Yeah, concentration camps in America! And the American Jewish disarmament voters are beyond idiocy!!
Dear Vincent,
I hear ya.
I still can’t understand why China, the place where gunpowder and guns were invented, never developed a “gun culture.”
Well, actually I do, in my left brain. But not in my gut.
Too many “Chinesen Schafenmenschen.”
Is it true that guns were first made in China? I know gunpowder certainly was, but from my understanding the last mile of putting the stuff in a pipe with padding and ball was a European improvement. Not doubting you as your probably better read on this matter. The Chinese were always ahead of the game for many centuries, but can’t say that the Roman’s weren’t clever when it came to weapons of war.
Hot Rod
Dear HR,
Is it true that guns were first made in China?
Most historians, including western historians, believe they were.
Googling the key words “guns invented in china” tends to confirm this.
Gotta run. But more later! Very rich subject close to my heart.
Dear HR,
I’m sure you know we are talking about PRIMITIVE guns?
Muzzle-loading single-shot black power matchlock style weapons. Nothing remotely like anything we would care to own today.
BUT… guns nonetheless.
The key is the invention. Later development was unquestionably a western phenomenon.
I consider this an historical tragedy. For millennia, China has constituted a large percentage of humanity.
That such a huge percentage of humanity failed to develop a “gun culture,” and instead acquiesced to the principle that “The government will decide who can own what” was not good.
It was not good for China. It was not good for anybody. The more that different cultures the world over embrace private gun ownership as “normal,” and as a right, the harder it is going to be for TPTB to persuade people to passively surrender their guns — and along with them, their liberties.
Bevin,
You’re probably right about China making the primitive guns. By that standard I suppose it would be true they also developed the science of rockets. Though not quite a Von Braun mechanics the simple concepts were demonstrated with fireworks?
I’ve always been wary of who was given titles do innovation in history. Just one example in mathematics comes to me is Maclaurin versus Taylor Series a polynomial expansion of mathematics. As far as I’m concerned Maclaurin looks like he did 95% of the work and old royal Taylor comes along and adds a displacement of the Maclaurin series from an origin of zero to an expansion around any other point of origin. Since the Taylor series is more complete he kind of gets all the glory for something very trivial. I suppose this isn’t the worst case as they still give MacClaurin some visibility.
Then you look at how many innovators of science have been pretty much ignored after huge contributions. And through my own life experience that the man with the capital is the one who gets labeled innovator not all the engineers/scientist he may behold. It would be likely that 90% of the history of innovation is a fraud.
Chinese inventing the primitive gun, sounds plausible to me. Like you said its too bad that such powerful innovation always gets concentrated to the few. Both in title and usage. We were lucky that our ancestors didn’t allow that to happen in their lifetime. I wonder if the future generations will see us as cowards that we allow the government to monopolize these revolutionary technologies in our own timeline?
Regards,
Hot Rod
Speaking of primitive guns…
I’m reading Harry Turtledove’s The Guns of the South.
If ya’ll want some libertarian Viagra, you’ll love this book. Without ruining it I’ll give a precis: South Africans from 2013 bring the South AK-47’s and almost unlimited ammunition for the War of Northern Aggression.
Yeah. Good stuff.
But along those lines I was chatting to my Dad, and I could not remember if the Revolutionary War guns were rifled or not.
Turns out, they were. I thought so; but in fact I thought they were accidentally rifled by the boring process, and the German immigrants who made them realized their serendipitous mistake and began doing it purposely. Wrong, it turns out; rifling had been invented much earlier but wasn’t wide-spread.
The debate came up when I was marveling to my Dad that those guys would take out English officers at 200-300 yards; a feat the English hated and wrote sniveling letters back to their Heimat–“…and they fire upon the PERSON of OFFICERS“…and “shirt-tail men, with their cursed twisted (rifled) guns, the most fatal widow- and-orphan-makers in the world.” 🙂
I’ve been stretching my legs a bit at the range of late. I *love* shooting with iron sights; it’s manly. But I bowed to modernity and put a cheap-ish 3-9 Vortex scope on one of my 7.62/308 battle rifles. Strangely, I was less accurate with it than open sights! For the first 50 rounds, at least. I’m getting better but still FAR from tack-driving; my best is about 2.5 MOA at 200 yards. Respectable I suppose with a semi-auto but, just as with driving at the track, one’s equipment is usually superior to one’s own skill until the latter has been developed at length.
Which makes me absolutely flabbergasted at those Revolutionary War Americans; carrying around those insanely long, heavy rifles and pulling off the shots they did.
Dear meth,
my best is about 2.5 MOA at 200 yards
A good 7.62×51 semi-auto battle rifle, such as an HK-91, FN-FAL, or Springfield M1-A should be capable of better than that.
What kind of support are you using? A bench rest? A bipod?
Hi Bevin,
Agreed. It’s the PTR-91; by all accounts a 1-MOA to 1.5-MOA rifle.
I’m using a bipod but no benchrest, only pussies rely on those 🙂
I shoot 1MOA with my 5.56 at 100yds. The PTR, I’m still getting used to; both the scope, and the new trigger. Had Bill Springfield lighten and tighten the trigger; HK’s are notorious for having long, scratchy, heavy triggers! Mine was like dragging a boulder over gravel. I developed some bad habits from it–especially not following through on the trigger squeeze.
So now with the lighter trigger I tend to bump-fire if I don’t follow through.
I’m going to do an Appleseed event. I’ve heard they’re an excellent way to improve marksmanship.
Have you done any training you can recommend? I’m enjoying the challenge tremendously. Next up is to qualify for the 600-yd range–you have to put five shots in a six inch circle at 300 yards, not too far off where I’m at.
Dear meth,
Ah, I’m familiar with HKs. They’re amazingly accurate for a semiauto battle rifle.
They have special sniper versions, but I always felt the standard versions were already plenty accurate enough.
I never got around to installing a scope, but I would have had I not left the country. I don’t think you need a lot of power. A scout rifle scope ought to be adequate.
Dear meth,
Re: training
I never had any special training. Just standard NRA competition shooting training in high school.
Seems like a million years ago. Rifle club members would bring their rifles to school on shooting day. I brought mine on the school bus, without even a rifle case.
Imagine doing that today!
Me too Bevin! Love the HK’s. As you know the PTR is an exact copy made in ‘Murrika.
Such a lovely design; totally simple. The South Africans call them “kaffir-proof”. I don’t know hard numbers, but I suspect they’re every bit as reliable as an AK. The design could not be more simple.
No gas pistons, no gas tubes; just two locking rollers that jam the bolt until the chamber pressure drops and allow the bolt to disengage.
Fairly sharp recoil though! But we are MEN, and bare the bruises like MEN, and cry on the inside like MEN 🙂
Dear meth,
The HK action is genius. It has the tight lockup of the best semiautos, almost as good as a bolt action, AND the reliability of an AK.
The roller delayed blowback action is as you correctly note, simplicity itself.
I also admire the designers for figuring out how to make almost all of the rifle out of stampings, for ease of manufacture.
Some people like devices that are custom fitted by craftsmen. I never have. To me that is so hit or miss. For example, I hate glass bedding.
I have always believed that the need for precision craftsmanship should be designed out of the device, making it foolproof and unnecessary.
Two good examples of this are the Savage rifle Accustock, and the Ruger American Rifle Power Bedding.
Of course there is. There’s a huge parasitical industry built up around crime. It can’t grow without crime. So it has to make more criminals. But what has all this interest in firearms and gun rights done in the last several years? It’s caused real crime to drop dramatically. In straight numbers that haven’t been seen in decades. Straight numbers despite a huge increase in population. The rates must be at or near all time lows.
They have to get rid of the guns to achieve industry growth. To encourage crime and to make criminals out of people who are no threat to anyone.
BrentP, that’s diabolical,… er, conspiracy mumbo-jumbo stuff. Ain’t it?
That’s almost like Monsanto using it’s pull to get all the major food makers such as Kraft, Coca-cola, and Betty Crocker to team up and defeat GMO labling on foods. … Oh, wait.
That’s the power that occurs when corporations join hands with government.
Whatever revolution happens, or where it takes us, the prison-industrial-complex will be the last to fall. And that’s a sad shame.
Today I’m a Helot.
Tomorrow I’m a Kulak.
Outlaws all.
Round and round it goes,
where it stops,
nobody knows.
Jesus taught that people should visit those in prison.
I wonder if there’s ever been a church that took its Sunday school class on a field trip to visit the inmates at a prison?
Could you imagine that?
Could you imagine if public schools did that?
The horror.?
Regrettably, I have never had the guts to visit them. I imagine I’d never be let back out.
Are prison inmates today the same as the Untouchables were in India?
All animals Are truly equal.
Some are just more equal than others?
Is that what it’s like to be a black person in the unitedstate today? Or Hispanic? It’s not about race, it’s about the powerful standing over the others.
Insert Cool Hand Luke video, here. x
“Yes, Boss.”
Case in point for the idea that, “There’s a huge parasitical industry built up around crime. It can’t grow without crime. So it has to make more criminals.”:
Reid’s Gun Control Bill Makes a Missing Firearm a Ticket to Five Years in Prison
http://blog.heritage.org/2013/04/04/reids-gun-control-bill-makes-a-missing-firearm-a-ticket-to-five-years-in-prison/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email
And to get back to a more automotive theme, did you read about this guy who made secret compartments in cars (amazing talent, imho)but it’s just bizarre what happened to him:
More Tales from Amerika: Obey the Law, Go to Prison
“Federal criminal law permits prosecutors to charge people with “crimes” even though they have not broken the law.” …
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/134727.html
Dear DS,
Read about the Alfred Anaya case.
Scary.
Yet mainstream Amerikans continue to delude themselves and insist that Amerika is not a police state.
Dear Brent,
The issue of incentive was dealt with nicely in the film “American Gangster,” starring Russel Crowe and Denzel Washington.
As one reviewer noted:
The strongest aspect of the film, however, is its courage in exposing the web of corruption that existed in the police force at the time.
In one scene, Roberts tells his fellow officers about how hard it is for him to gain cooperation from federal agencies.
“I don’t think they want this to stop”, he says. “Judges, lawyers, cops, politicians, they stop bringing dope into this country, about a hundred thousand people are gonna be out of a job.”
In a trenchant commentary on the values in society, by 1977, 52 out of 70 officers who worked in the Special Investigations Unit were either in jail or under indictment.”
Precisely correct, BrentP.
It is not stupidity, it is not an accident. The government, especially federal, is a mafia criminal organization.
They need common criminals to distract and justify. They like common criminals; they themselves are criminals. Sharks don’t eat sharks.
This is all by design.
Get ready guys. They’re coming.
Dear meth,
It’s naive beyond belief to gripe about “government inefficiency” in this context.
In this context, government is supremely efficient at its real purpose, predation.
Only sheeple perceive this predation as “inefficiency” because they can’t bring themselves to believe that “our government” would do this to us.
“If government simply convicted and incarcerated the tiny percentage of real criminals in the population ”
Now, break it down a little further. If government got the hell out of the way and simply allowed society to function naturally, families and friends of the victims would find the offenders and hang their sorry asses from a convenient tree, or hunt them down and shoot them. In many more cases than we have today, the intended victims would shoot the criminals who assaulted or threatened them, instead of allowing them to commit their crimes.
Never mind imprisoning some moral retardate who thinks it’s fine to harm others and simply take what isn’t theirs. Instead, let them have a lead overdose, an air dance, or drowning lessons.
Governments claim an absolute monopoly on deadly force, as well as a monopoly on deciding punishments for crimes. It’s a false claim, or as an earlier generation put it, a usurpation of authority.
“If government got the hell out of the way and simply allowed society to function naturally, families and friends of the victims would find the offenders and hang their sorry asses from a convenient tree, or hunt them down and shoot them.”
I kind of agree with you, Ed but we would still need some sort of safety valve. I’m thinking of the Hatfields and the McCoys — generational warfare between two clans where nobody remembers what the fight is all about but, Hell’s bells, the fight must go on.
I think the bible offers a possible solution to this with the concept of safe cities. What would you propose to avoid or mitigate endless fights between families where each family thinks it is aggrieved?
We could think of all sorts of potential problems like this, though they would be rare. How would hired thugs improve the situation? Where would they get the authority to intervene?
The people in the community, the neighbors and uninvolved relatives, might figure out a way to negotiate a solution, and those not involved would have the right of self defense, of course, but as regrettable as it would be, if people want to fight and kill each other, mutual combat is ultimately nobody else’s business.
I like that, MamaLiberty.
I’ve often said we’d be much better off bringing back the tradition of dueling.
Given the much better weapons today, twenty or thirty paces instead of ten.
But you’d notice a marked improvement in civility–especially on the part of the costumed Stasi enforcers.
Hey Methyl..whats up?
I guess the Hatfield and Mccoys are population control of the agressives in society. Same with Dodge and gunfighters. Anyone stupid enough to meet another guy in a street and do a faceoff, one or both of them deserves to be dead. Personally, no smart man would do that he’d get his revenge like the enemy of John Bozeman, whoever that person was who did took him out in Montana.
The point is that Dodge and Mccoys and Hatfield act like a pressure release valve of the stupid and aggressive. So I’m all for duels and such as long as they meet in a place where stray bullets don’t wander too far or near innoncent populace.
As far as family getting personal retribution, the problem that Larry may have touched on is that people are weirdos on average. Get a group of weirdos from the same family together and they will often target an innocent independent and succesful person out of envy. They’ll make up some baloney charge because they want to kill and destroy goodness. Cainnites plain and simple. I lived in the old west and small towns of cliques and if you weren’t related by 3 generation you were an outcast. And believe me if these people had their way they’d hung me for charges of cattle rustling even though I have no interest in cattle and I’m as honest as they get.
Problem is that paid for cops are from the same generational abyss so it only adds to the problem as they have a monopoly of force and can even more effectively eliminate the one envied. So you’re F’ed either way. Then it comes to the fact that the only thing stops roving gangs of aggressive and stupid is a well placed bullet between one or all of their eyes if they try. Fear definitely keeps justice even for those who hide behind the claims of wanting it without just cause.
“What would you propose to avoid or mitigate endless fights between families where each family thinks it is aggrieved?”
I’m the wrong one to ask about that, probably. Not being a big fan of control, I’d let’em fight.
Eliminating the monopoly on the use of violence for defense would go a long way toward correcting some of our problems with crime, in my view.
I understand where you’re coming from, “Let’s put people who commit violent acts in jail” however; that’s not reforming the system at all.
Reforming the system, like all the other rotten systems, cannot be reformed, they need to be replaced.
Many people have suggested a return to the way humans have interacted throughout much of history – that – would be an actual change, or reformation. The key phrase is: private justice. (Please search the term) It worked before, and it would work again, in much the same fashion as you propose except there would be actual justice.
Anyway, like your approach, it will never be considered by TPTB as it threatens their power structure completely.
The whole thing is similar to the economic picture everywhere. Consider this perspective, if you will:
“We’re in a situation where we’ve been operating for 500 years in a financial model. I call it the Central Banking Warfare model.
… if you look at the total wealth that we have in this economy right now, to me it’s less than 1% of what’s possible because so much of how we’ve engineered the federal finances shrinks the pie. It centralizes control but it shrinks the pie. When you have an entire society running around pretending in an official story that’s not true and engineering and rigging all sorts of things and behaving as a criminal enterprise – a criminal enterprise does not optimize total wealth in an economy. So if we’re managing the country like it’s a scene from “Animal House” we’re not going to end up happy and wealthy.” …
http://thedailybell.com/28967/Catherine-Austin-Fitts-Solari-Stories-A-State-of-Amusement
Yup, we both know none of this will be considered by Mass-man though.
Which reminds me of this bit:
Common Sense Versus Nonsense
… “According to 2009 data from the Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 33,808 people died in car crashes. I’m guessing that if Congress would mandate and enforce a 5 or 10 mph speed limit, at least 30,000 American lives would be saved.
How many people would support such a mandate?” …
http://lewrockwell.com/williams-w/w-williams83.1.html
Nope, instead; they’re running around like a dog chasing its tail.
It’s truly a bizarre spectacle to behold.
“Reforming the system, like all the other rotten systems, cannot be reformed, they need to be replaced.”
Yep, that’s what I call turd polishing,that is, trying to fix something rotten instead of getting rid of it. Politicians are all dedicated turd polishers. The problems that exist to give them their pretexts for imposing more control on the rest of us, are sacrosanct. To abolish a system that perpetuates a problem just won’t do, because it removes one of their pretexts.
Ordinary, sensible human beings know that if there’s a turd on the kitchen floor, it must be dropped into the toilet and flushed away. Any other means of dealing with it are stupid. Our holy “leaders”, on the other hand, insist on carefully picking up the turd and trying to polish it to a high gloss. Shining up a turd can’t be done. Even if it could be done, the end result of all the work would be a shiny piece of shit, that still stinks and contaminates any area it occupies.