I’ve written before about low-cost, simple vehicles the car companies aren’t allowed to sell here because they don’t conform to the various edicts issued by the federal government regarding emissions (defensible, within reason) and saaaaaaaaaaaaaafety (indefensible, period – as the government has no legitimate basis dictating such a thing to supposedly “free” adults).
Well, here’s one you can at least buy – and it’s legal to own it, too. No government SWAT teams will descend for having one in the garage.
It’s the $15,540 Mahindra Roxor.
It’s basically a rebooted ‘70s-era Jeep CJ, which means it’s a rugged, simple 4×4. It features heavy duty body-on-frame construction, with a rugged steel body designed to be easy – and cheap – to repair.
It even comes standard with a 2.5 liter turbo-diesel engine, paired with a five-speed manual transmission. Reportedly, the thing averages better than 50 miles-per-gallon.
The hitch is you can’t drive it.
Well, not on “public” – that is to say, government-owned (even though we pay for them) roads. It is for off-road use only. Like an ATV, except it’s got everything you’d need to drive on the road except for a permission slip from Uncle. Which it hasn’t got and never will get because it lacks the EPA and DOT certifications which are the legally necessary prerequisites for getting a registration slip and license plates.
But this gives us a window into the Cost of Uncle.
The Roxor’s closest analog in an Uncle-approved vehicle is the current Jeep Wrangler – which is the great-great-grandson of the ‘70s-era Jeep CJ.
A new Wrangler’s base price is $27,495 – a difference of just under $12,000. This is a very good approximation of the cost of Uncle – of his many mandates. It’s true the on-road-legal Jeep has amenities that the Roxor doesn’t, such as air conditioning and power windows and a nice stereo.
But those aren’t the major price padders.
What gets into real money is building a vehicle to be compliant with federal “safety,” emissions and fuel efficiency mandates.
Especially the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety mandates.
The Roxor hasn’t got any air bags – or even a padded dashboard. There is no automated emergency braking (mandatory in new cars beginning with the 2022 model year). No back-up cameras. No electronic tire pressure monitor system.
You can, however, see where you’re going – because sideward and rearward visibility isn’t occluded by Uncle-mandated girder-like “A,” “B” and “C” pillars, necessary to support the weight of an Uncle-approved car in the event it rolls over.
Its short (96 inch) wheelbase, 9 inches of ground clearance and top-heavy layout means that if you drive it stupidly – by taking a corner at high speed for instance – it might roll over.
Just like the old Jeep CJs would, if you drove them stupidly.
But why is that any of the government’s legitimate business?
Peruse the Constitution, allegedly the law of the land. There does not appear to be a word in the thing about government’s obligation to protect people from the potential consequence of bad decisions, in particular those made by others.
We are supposed to be free to pursue Happiness – or so we were told.
What if it makes us happy to drive a simple, basic vehicle without air bags or a padded dashboard, which doesn’t have a back-up camera or tire pressure monitors and which could – if driven stupidly – end up on its roof? Were did Uncle get the rightful authority to interpose? To pre-emptively deny us our free choice – including the natural right of every free man to take risks, according to his own best judgment?
And to not be bound and chained because of the bad decisions made by other men?
The emissions thing is also a bogey – if reasonableness is the criteria.
Roxor’s diesel engine hasn’t got EPA certification for on-road use. Engine oils, spare parts, and more products here. But it is capable of going about 50 percent farther on a gallon of fuel than the EPA-approved gas-burning V6 engine that’s used in the current Wrangler. It would be very interesting to do the math and ascertain whether – on the whole – a diesel engine with slightly higher exhaust emissions ends up emitting less in the way of harmful emissions than a “certified” gas engine that burns about 50 percent more fuel.
One wonders, also, what it would take to make the Roxor’s diesel engine EPA-complaint but leave the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety mandates out of the equation.
Even if it took $5,000 in particulate traps and other such to get the diesel engine within spec, the Roxor could still be sold for around $20k – which would be around $7k less than the base price of the 2018 Wrangler.
Not that there’s anything wrong with the Wrangler . . . if you want the six air bags, the padded dash – and all the rest of it.
Not everyone does.
This includes the Wrangler’s forbidding – unapproachable – repair and maintenance costs, all of which will generally have to be performed by a $100-per-hour “technician” with the essential (and unaffordable) diagnostic equipment and specialized tools needed to service an Uncle-approved vehicle.
The Roxor’s guts, on the other hand, are field-serviceable by almost anyone who can turn a wrench – which (plus a decent socket set) are all you need to service this thing yourself.
Too bad we’re not allowed to drive it anywhere except the back yard.
. . .
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T’was just speaking with my friend who now lives in FL, who had bought a Roxor a few months ago; asked him how it was doing- Bear in mind, that my friend is an accomplished diesel guy, who’s been repairing his own Macks, and Ford and Ram pick-ups almost as long as I’ve been alive….
He tells me “That reminds me, it’s at the dealer; been there for weeks, and I haven’t heard a word from them. Gotta give them a call”. I asked what the problem was- he says “It won’t go over 1MPH”! He hasn’t a clue as to what the problem is…and apparently, neither does the dealer.
$5 an hour coder 😉
Probably!
That, or the rickshaw puller took him to the wrong place!
Just talked to my friend- He got his Roxor back from the stealership. The problem, causing it to not go over 1MPH? He doesn’t wear his seat belt… Nanny-state-safety-cultism now even built in to off-road Dot-head vehicles…… Un-freaking-believable….. (And it took the dealer weeks to figure that out…. (Hey Eric, ya got any spare booze….I may have to take up drinking!)
Hi Nunz!
Crikey… but I am not surprised. This saaaaaaaaaaaafety stuff has become a cult. One I wish would drink the spiked Kool Aid.
Eric, ya know what’s really scary though? When expressing my disgust that such a feature would exist even in what is an off-road toy (And that it is- turns out, my friend has never actually driven it on the road, despite having bought all of the upgrades to supposedly make it “street legal”)- the fact that he took the automatic gimping of his vehicle in stride- THAT is truly disturbing, considering this guy had to be the Safety-cult’s number-one “most wanted” enemy for most of his life; I mean, a guy who, back before VIN#s when people would just abandon their broken-down cars on the streets of NYC, would African-American rig them to run and drive them off an abandoned pier in the Rockaways- but now, even he has been lulled by the gradualism enough to not even care nor offer any resistance; not even a vow to defeat the stupid feature……
Damn, I don’t know what this world is coming to, but we are DOOMED!
Countless numbers of ATVs are registered and licensed inn several of the states. I know several people who ride theirs to work and around town when the weather allows it, and a couple who don’t care about the weather. Maybe if it was reclassified as a ATV, which all such vehicles are usually used, this logjam could be easily broken.
Man, that’s a NICE little Jeep like vehicle! I love it! I only wish I could BUY & DRIVE the thing…
I was reading how Jeep is waging war against Mahindra to try and keep these things off the American market…. Ah…good ol’ American business! Instead of making what people want and are willing and able to pau for, they make electronic AWD Fiats, and then try to destroy the company that makes what Americans REALLY want!
That reminds me: whatever happened to the Suzuki Samurai?
You are correct.
The same situation exists with American firearms manufacturers who lobbied the Bush administration to outlaw the importation of most rifles and pistols from overseas. The imports that are still allowed are not “pristine” but are required to have an importer’s name imprinted (stamped) on formerly “pristine” firearms which conceivably reduces the value. .
To add insult to injury, none other than Bill Ruger suggested and pushed through the 10-round magazine limit as part of the 1994 “assault weapons ban”.
So much for industry separating itself from government…
Where is it written that industry should separate itself from government?
On the other hand, I’m sure they’d be happy to if they could get complete amnesty from taxation and frivolous tort as the government enjoys.
Like what Microsoft has done countless times to upstart competitors, or what the Big Three did to Preston Tucker…
I think FCA is just throwing something out and hoping that it sticks.
Mahindra and Chrysler made an agreement back in 2009, when the former was considering entering the US market. They agreed on an approved grill design, which was the so called “4.5 slot” on the Roxor. In exchange, Chrysler wouldn’t pursue IP claims.
It’s interesting that FCA is not challenging Mahindra in court. They just filed a complaint with the ITC. Marinara, however, has filed suit against FCA for breach of the 2009 agreement.
Hi Freak,
I really want to defend FCA on this – because FCA is among the few car companies still interested in building cars (and trucks) that aren’t metrosexualized, anodyne transportation appliances.
What they ought to do is work with Mahindra. Why not sell Roxors at Jeep stores? Give people the option to buy the basic Jeep as well as the Wurlitzer Jeep.
Above all, it would be a challenge to everything that’s ruining the car business. If just one major car company took a stand, it could change everything.
Sadly, Eric, what ever little embers of good remain at Chrysler, will probably be extinguished by Fiat. Fiat is used to being ‘compliant’ and subserviant, from having existed so long over in Dago-land; and as if Chrysler’s quality hadn’t bad enough already….being teamed-up with F(ix) I(t) A(gain) T(ony) is only gonna make that worse. I think they’re days are numbered. They spun-off Ram- probably the only real source of US profits- and Jeep could’ve been another- but Jeep has been slipping [pun intended!) for a long time; and now Fiat will likely kill Jeep entirely by turning it to crap even more- as they are already doing.
A snart company would see the reaction to the Roxor as free market research, and get on-board and compete….but today’s crony-capitalist morons just want to use government to limit or kill their competition; and don’t give a rat’s patoot about what the customer wants.
They’ll do millions of dollars worth of research to make their hundreds of million dollars worth of advertising appeal to the subconscious nuances of potential customers…but they refuse to make vehicles that the public clearly demonstrates that it has a need and want for, and will buy enthusiastically. How stupid, eh?
So I guess we can’t expect any sensible, reasonable behavior from the American and European bidness community these days.
You just brought up something I didn’t realize I wanted
Thank you Eric, now I wanna save up for one! Has everything I want: Manual, Turbo Diesel and as bare bones as possible, perfect little toy!
Me too, Zane!
So I’ve recently heard on FB of a company called “Dirt Legal” anyone else hear of them or try their services? They guarantee a street legal registration and tag for any dirtbike, ATV or UTV, in any state. money back guarantee, so they say.. Unfortunately I cannot Buy a Roxor to test their services, but If I already had one I might.. Sound off if you’ve heard of them or used them.. I see alot of their testamonials saying the user got a Florida tag for their UTVs and were able to drive in their home state legally with the proper turn signals and mirrors and stuff..
Hi Tom,
Street legality hinges on the vehicle meeting federal emissions/safety requirements applicable at the time of its manufacture. Either that or qualifying for an exemption from those requirements. It’s cost prohibitive to take a vehicle like the Roxor and make it compliant with all the regs, especially the “safety” regs (which would probably mean, among other things, adding multiple air bags to the vehicle as well as revising its structure in significant ways) so I am betting – if this is legitimate – that the company has found a way to get the Roxor/other such vehicles exempted, probably by having them registered as kits or similar.
Eric
As I understand it, Dirt Legal gets the vehicle titled/registered in a state that allows utv/abs on road, but the registration is to the address in your home state. South Dakota and Montana are common.
So it may come with a motorcycle sized plate, but would be treated in your home state with the reciprocity afforded to any other out of state vehicle.
If you happen to get pulled over I suspect that you might face questions regarding the in state address but out of state plates.
Freak, far as I know, states that don’t allow “off-road” vehicles on road, don’t make any allowance for reciprocity with states that do. And only a handful of states allow ’em, and they’re limited to certain roads, or just for agricultural use. It’s not like you can go traveling around or riding downtown……
Im just reporting my understanding of Dirt Legal’s process.
And while some states, like mine, restrict the speed and class of road, some have very little restrictions.
If you check on the Roxor forums you’ll find some who have registered and drive their Roxors anywhere.
Dirt Legal has also been doing this for some time, primarily on dirt bikes, 4 wheelers and SBS. You can find all sorts of people driving those obviously off road vehicles on road, including on interstates. Sometimes being pulled over, but eventually being allowed to go on their way.
Here in Michigan it is possible to register a vehicle that does not meet current safety and emission standards. I titled and registered an M-151 military jeep as an “assembled vehicle” with no problem at all. Insurance for the vehicle was no problem. The insurance agent wanted to see the vehicle
Freak, I’d caution anyone who wants to try such things to personally look up the applicable statutes for their state. Some guys on a forum may be able to get away with it for a while….but you don’t want to be the one who gets their expensive vehicle confiscated by Uncle’s henchmen.
I was looking up the statutes for some states last night after reading your earlier post. NV. for instance, has a weight restriction of 2K lbs.
Yeah, dirtbikes are different story- even in the commie states, ya can put lights and a horn and speedo on ’em, and can ride ’em anywhere. They start getting picky though as soon as more than 2 wheels are involved. Years ago it wasn’t so bad, and you could fudge it a little- but now, what with the increasing tyranny and the fact that there are a lot of “alternative” vehicles out there, they’ve tightened up all the regs.
Hi Nunz,
I concur with all you’ve written. The risk of a Hut! Hut! Hutting! is much higher today, of course. Twenty years ago, a cop might have given you tickets for improper equipment or some such. Today, you stand a good chance of having your “noncompliant” vehicle seized by a vicious AGW, impounded and (possibly) destroyed.
Nornin’ Eric!
Yeah….it really sucks- ‘specially for those of us who remember the days when you could fudge things a little so long as you weren’t doing any harm- or at worst, have a plausible story, or some home-made paperwork (before computer days), and one could really eek out a good measure of freedom.
Today? Pffffftt!!! Even if you’re in compliance with all of the laws, it’s no guarantee that they’ll leave you alone…and woe is you if every ‘i’ is not dotted and ‘t’ crossed!
Those pigs’ll be using the money they get from selling one’s Roxor to buy their own donut fryer for the stationhouse! (This is why I refuse to attend things like police auctions for vehicles and such…I don’t buy stolen goods)
Statutes are online for every state in the Union as far as I know, and one can look this stuff up in the vehicle and traffic code easy enough. Usually, all you have to do is read a few lines to dispell some commonly held myths.
And I’d even print out a copy of the applicable statutes and carry them with me (how sad is that- that we have to?) ’cause half the time, the pigs don’t even know the laws they’re supposed to enforce and or abide by.
When I had my tow truck in NY, I did just that, ’cause I was a not-for hire truck, just hauling junk that I owned (It became mine when I’d buy it or be given it by the former owner at their residences)…and thus, the special “tow truck laws” like special insurance, and special plates etc. didn’t apply to me- but try telling that to some stupid semi-literate pig. Saved my butt the one time I got stopped (and they stopped me as a fishing expedition, thinking I was in violation of those very laws. After I ‘splained to the porker, and he consulted his partners in crime, he said “O-K and started to walk away. You should’ve seen the ‘deer in the headlights when I yelled after him: “What did you stop me for?” -Yeah, I’m not the type to keep my mouth shut, that’s why I try to avoid interactions with the porcine species)).
Obviously. And even Dirt Legal recommends as such.
We’re not talking about buying a CJ hulk with title, registering it and then tossing the plates on the Rox.
People should do their due diligence. I won’t be shelling out for a $15k Roxor, plus the added modifications, unless I were comfortable with the process.
I suspect that the Nevada statute is more about what they will place as a utv. Many states have weight (and width) restrictions for vehicles to go on trails. The Roxor is typically too heavy and wide, leaving it in an awkward spot even for it’s intended use.
Yes, exactly- the 2K limit was for ATV/UTV classification- but therein lies the problem- you either have to have something classified as a “street legal off-road vehicle”- or a strictly off-road vehicle.
Naturally, if it’s classified as the latter, it can not be used on the street; and to be classified as the former, it has to fit into ATV/UTV/motorcycle/etc. category….but they have all of those categories set-up so that a Roxor type vehicle doesn’t qualify, so the only thing left for street-legal classification is as a standard car/truck…for which it also doesn’t qualify.
They got this stuff all figured out. And if you should find a loophole…once it’s popular enough to appear on the web, and or a lot of people are doing it…they’ll simply sew it up.
I haven’t called Dirt Legal yet to nail down the specifics, only because of other issues I may run into at home worth the Rox.
I’ve always wanted a Wrangler but the prices are ridiculous. And I’d love to get 30+ mpg that Roxor owners are reporting.
But the wife doesn’t drive stick, and then there’s the issue of crashworthiness as it relates to driving with my son.
You can put a CJ back seat in the Roxor, or one from the expanding aftermarket, but at the end of the day it’s not designed for car seats.
I’m comfortable with accepting certain risks for myself, but not necessarily for him.
Of course a modern Wrangler can still run about with windshield down, and top and doors off, so…..
The Roxor might be an interesting option for me if I choose a place like Belize as my jumping off (or even more permanent) locale. Bet ya can drive ’em all over the place there! Should be some used ones around by then… (if they hold up)
Sounds like the old LLC game with registration.
For the Roxor I only see one thing working. Using a new Roxor for parts to restore (resto-mod) an old Jeep. It should be just as legal as any of the other ways old Jeeps are rebuilt. Only thing is instead of a new Roxor your vehicle is now an old Jeep that’s been modified. How much of the old Jeep needs to be kept? I am not sure. Possibly as little as the vin stampings I suppose. Or maybe it can be the grandfather’s axe thing where nothing original survives.
Ha, yeah…that’d be the only way I could see. Probably have to have either the original frame with VIN or serial number…or original body with VIN place/serial.
But for all that trouble and expense, I’d just get a modern or vintage 4 cyl. Jeep. Plenty of 90’s 4cyl. Wranglers around for $5K or less…go faster than the Roxor, and for the li’l extry gas they’d burn, you’d have to drive it a hell of a long time before you’d use up the $10K+ that ya’d save by buying the Wrangler.
To make matters worse, I live in a state (CT) that does not have any legal off road trails for ATVs or UTVs of any make. They have to be Hauled to other states that do like MA, NH, or VT. – BUT… in those states the UTVs must be registered. And to get a registration as a UTV and legally ride the trails the UTV must be under 2000 lbs. Long story short, in New England at least, the ROXOR is a private property ONLY machine.. ?
Hi Tom,
We can still “get away” with such things here in rural SW Virginia… but probably not for much longer. The tentacles of the control freaks extend far, indeed…
Tom, as a former “neighbor” of yours from across the Sound, I had to cringe, as your post is a perfect illustration of the kind of insanity and tyranny of the Northeast- which, unfortunately, 99.99% of people just shrug off and pay top dollar to live amongst. (The other .01% of us move!)- But as Eric says, it’s just a matter of time….as what ever gets established in the Northeast or CA., sooner or later spreads to the rest of the commune…err..country. Right now, we still have about as much freedom as one can find in America t5hese days, here in south central KY.- but every year, you can see the same BS that started in NY 40 years ago, eating it’s way like a cancer, closer and closer…..
Any country that is governed can never be free for long. Our Constitution specifically says what the powers of our government are, and specifically states that it (the Constitution) is the supreme law of the land and that any laws contrary to it are invalid. However, look around.. almost every law we have is on some level designed to infringe on the freedom of the citizens and even laws that are blatantly repugnant to the Constitution are consistently upheld by the courts. Judges are compelled by the Constitution to uphold it as the supreme law above all other laws, but they don’t do it, and there is no entity to hold the justice department accountable for failing their oaths, and the written words of our founding documents. Freedom in this country, as it was intended, has been gone for a long long time. We are left with a perception of freedom, but it’s an empty shell of what it was supposed to be.
Very true, Tom.
We’ve strayed so far from the Constitution, that the document essentially has lost all meaning; and the very people who are responsible for seeing that it’s principles are upheld, have been derelict.
Then add to that: Even if we somehow could get back to a minimalist Constitutional government….it still would be too much government; as it still gives certain men the ability to tax [control the wealth of] others, and dominion over their lives and liberty; and eminent domain, etc.- and while that minimal government would certainly be better than the monstrosity which we have now, it wouldn’t be long before we’d end up right back here again….as has happened perpetually throughout history, any time other men are elevated above the general population by some words on a page. It always ends badly.
That is why I am no longer a Constitutionalist and am now an Anarchist.
This guy says it well:
Larken Rose – I’m Allowed To Rob You:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngpsJKQR_ZE
Any form of government other than self-government precludes freedom.
The mess we have is the result of We the People abdicating from our duty, as elucidated in the Declaration of Independence, to “to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
Thomas Jefferson knew we would probably do just that, when he wrote that “(t)he spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may become persecutor, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated that the time for fixing every essential right, on a legal basis, is while our rulers are honest, ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten, therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will be heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.”
We have no one but ourselves, individually and severally, to blame for the situation we are in.
Hello Tom and Nunzio. I am of the opinion that the constitution was intended to be a political farce from the very beginning because the fondling fathers repeatedly molested it before the ink stains even dried, but I acknowledge that a so-called constitutional government which actually tried to live by the “limited government” doctrine they espoused to would be vastly superior to what we now have, which was the outcome that the anti-federalists had correctly predicted in the anti-federalist papers so long ago.
That Larkin Rose vid you linked to Nunzio was pretty good; but he has one out now that is relevant to our blessed Independence Day!!!! /sarc The new video is actually very good though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu8jWWLQ4ZA
Hi Brian,
There is no question the Constitution was written specifically to “correct” the “weaknesses” of the Articles of Confederation – which were considered by Hamilton and his minions to be the individual sovereignty of the states (which they still were, in the literal meaning of that term; i.e., independent nations) and their lack of subordination to a consolidated central authority – that is to say, to Hamilton and the other plotters.
What Hamilton wanted, basically, was the British system without a hereditary king. Elites ruling over the masses – for the sake of profit and control.
But the rhetoric of the Revolution required paying some lip service to the ideas of individual liberty and that resulted in the Bill of Rights being added to the Constitution and also limited what the elites dared try getting away with for many generations, until those ideas had almost completely dissipated.
And here we are.
I agree, Brian & Eric.
A few of the Founders may’ve been on the right track and had sincere motives, never-the-less, the Constitution is analogous to a solution which might be the outcome of modern corporate committee’s plan of action, which, even when sincere, always turns out badly because it is achieved through an assemblage of different factions, all with different visions and methods. So how much the more dysfunctional, when the intended outcome is bondage and restraint of the average person, and special powers and privileges for others, who are essentially “elected gods”?
This is something I didn’t understand back when I was a Constitutionalist: That anything which binds us/obligates us to ANY form of government, is by very nature a mechanism of tyranny.
Oh, and Brian, that video was GOOD, but this ‘un is my absolute favorite of Larken Rose’s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDpssJmODs
Exactly. Any freedom that is “allowed” by or provided by one party to another isn’t true freedom. It’s a perception of freedom. As has been proven time and time again, our government has the ability unopposed to remove or infringe on any freedom at any time, with the stroke of a pen. Whether it is implied or explicitly stated in the Constitution or not. Literally every gun law we have is by definition an infringement on a right the Constitution explicitly states cannot be infringed. Look at DUI checkpoints. They clearly violate the fourth amendment by allowing police to stop you without probable cause and only after stopping you, determine if you are committing a crime. Yet when challenged in the Supreme Court, this practice was upheld by the courts and police are now allowed by technically invalid law to violate your Constitutional liberty. This slow erosion cannot stop until all liberty is gone.
I look at it this way, Tom:
They used a document to enshrine and perpetuate government, and as an after-thought, tacked-on a Bill Of Rights which if adhered to, might allow us to maintain some of our liberties which still might remain after the implementation of the rest of the document- and even most of those concessions were not absolute rights granted to every individual, but merely areas on which Congress/The Federal Goobermint was not supposed to tread because such trespassing was the business of the individual states.
So basically, if our fathers had been more diligent, we would only be under state tyranny instead of federal tyranny. Hurrah [yawn]…how wonderful…. 😀
its not difficult to just buy an older vehicle and drive it.
most anything built before 1995 or so is simple and easy to work on .
a 92-96 Bronco is sturdy and easy to work on. has simple EFi and OD
87-91 K5 Blazer has simple EFi and OD and no airbags and no crumple zones and no plastic and will go up in value in stead of down
why does everything think they have to buy a brand new vehicle??
just buy a well cared for one, replace all the belts , hoses, bearings and drive the damn thing, why is this so hard for people to understand?
Hi Justin,
I agree with you. The problem, I think, is that most people no longer know how to do even basic repairs and have been conditioned to be Elio-like and helpless, concerned about saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety above everything else.
Does this mean that one need not “replace all the belts , hoses, bearings and drive” a not so “well cared for” vehicle? The cost of replacing all of the mentioned parts would probably raise the cost of a used vehicle to that of a new one, which would defeat the purpose of buying a “well cared for one.”
Hi Bill,
It depends.
If all it needs is belts (maybe just one, if it’s serpentine) and fluid/filter changes, some new bearings, minor stuff like that – and assuming you can do it yourself – it’s a couple hundred bucks in parts, maybe.
Well worth it if the car os basically sound.
Eric,
Why would one replace anything that isn’t broken?
What is the standard for basically sound that exceeds totally functional?
Most serious automotive failures are beyond the competence of the average owner to mitigate, and routinely replacing sound parts is more likely to cause problems than solve them. I judge my mechanics by the number of serious problems they discover before they cause breakdowns than by their insistence on the importance of preventative maintenance that only maintains their income.
Hi Bill,
I like to keep to the maintenance schedule, erring on the side of caution – because I’d rather fix the thing when it’s convenient, in my garage, with all my tools at hand – than someplace not convenient, no tools at hand! When I buy a used vehicle, I like to bring it up to my standard – to know everything is ship shape. This means replacing all fluids and filters, belts, hoses and so on.
eric, so we DO think alike. No matter how old a vehicle, the first thing I do is replace “all of the fluids”. Probably you remember our conversation when you took me to task over Amsoil.
Unfortunately, for me, I have decades of Amsoil “believing”. I’m not impressed by anything other than numbers and numbers don’t much lie regarding many of the tests for any lubricant.
Indeed, we do!
tl;dr version:
The good old stuff is so old now, it’s either trashed, or a show car (with correspondingly high price).
Long version
Trouble is: Finding one of those older vehicles that isn’t either rusted to hell, or beat to hell. The ones which are reasonably well-preserved are usually owned by people like ourselves, who have no reason to sell them as long as they’re in serviceable condition.
When you do find something halfway decent for sale, the owner often wants some insane price for it- which might be justifiable if the vehicle were near perfect…but they rarely are.
The average vehicle of that age, is often just one that has been through a plethora of owners, -the last few of whom just bought it as a beater and abused it and did zero maintenance.
I’d love to find an 80’s K5 Blazer in reasonable shape. (I used to have one- shoulda kept it!)- But paying $8K for a butchered rusty one…or $15K for decent one, is just ridiculous. I’d like to find a K20 Suburban from that era even more…. Seems like the only way to get such a thing is to go to AZ, NM or CA….and pay, pay, PAY.
So, it’s not like you can just go out and buy one today. Even a run-of-the-mill car from the 80’s or 90’s. How many do you even see for sale? And if you see one, like I said, it’s usually ready for the bone yard. About the only way to get something like that that is viable, is if your grandparents have one, and give it/sell it/leave it to you…or if you’re extremely lucky and have a neighbor who doesn’t think their jalopy is a valuable “collectible”; or just happen to be in the right place at the right time (Like the time I was at a friend’s business, and a regular pulls up in a nice Corvette he needed to sell that day, to pay for legal fees to stay out of jail- $4K. And wouldn’t ya know it, I had $10K….but was on my way to buy a rollback I had put a deposit on! I don’t like ‘Vettes, but I sure could have made a nice profit on it! That was about 20 years ago… Haven’t come across any deals like that since!).
My sister has a ’92 4cyl. Mustang. Low mileage. She does zero maintenance, and only drives it once or twice a week, no more than a few blocks to the store. If she ever sells it- or if her kids do when she croaks- someone’s gonna pay a lot of money for that car, because it looks nice and has under 100K miles on it- she even gets offers on it when she uses it- but they’re going to be getting a pile of crap! [NEVER EVER buy a low-mileage old car!]
My 2003 E-150 with 282,000 on the original engine must be worth more than it cost new.
You’re right, and honestly, older vehicles have much more character and are more rewarding than new ones.
Doesn’t mean you can’t put new stuff into it, but only if it enhances things, not take away from them
Eric
The price is also a window on inflation. One could have bought a 70s Jeep for around $3500. Federal reserve notes, If I’m not mistaken. With all the improvement in manufacturing , this one comes in at $12000. More in 40 years. Thanks for the story. Jeep sold the XJ in UK under a different name for years. Just so folks know that bit of trivia.
No one, not even the police, would care if you drove one of these around up here in the Keweenaw Peninsula. Kids drive snowmobiles to school in the winter and quads or dirt bikes in the summer. It’s pretty funny really. I haven’t switched out my expired plates for a year. One of my taillights has been busted for five years. Your car will rust through before a cop stops you for anything but speeding, and even that is rare. Typically the only ones speeding are out-of-town idiots who don’t realize we have more deer than people, and the deer like to jump out in front of cars. Low population density can be a blessing in charming little towns like Houghton, Michigan, but only if you don’t mind freezing your butt off and you’re into skiing most of the year. The summers are sweet and the technological university MTU at least keep the area humming.
Houghton is a great area. Usually in the area at least a few times over the summer. Not many cops or people in general means no busybodies. you can get away with so much in the UP.
I moved here from Tucson. You couldn’t go ten minutes on the road without a cop being behind you at some point during your drive. People up here stop their cars in the middle of the street for a friendly talk, or pick up mail from the mailbox. It’s wild. It’s like going back in time to that place liberal twits say never existed, but it’s here. In all the years I’ve been up here, I’ve never felt an adversarial relationship with the police. The only thing they pursue with a vengeance are real criminals.
Now that’s a change of scenery! How well have you adjusted to the winter? The UP is some of the last great wilderness left in the east. Even areas of the NE lower peninsula are pretty remote. Even here in central MI the deputys are usually pretty lenient.We’ve got away with quite a lot. Troopers…they get the appropriate treatment from the start.
I learned to ski, and that helped me adjust. I raised one son in Tucson and that was enough to convince me to go back to my roots to raise the other one in the U.P. This is a paradise for a kid. He’s a real pro at downhill and skate skiing. He couldn’t imagine living in a place without snow and hunting.
Attendees to this event might be considered to be real criminals.
http://stopgeoengineeringtucson.com/
I’ve seen many movies while I was a student at UA in the Gallagher Theater. I also have been aware of what mad scientists have been doing to the air for many years now. We live in a world of crazy people who have all the power.
If the forecast mini-ice age begins soon, you’ll be able to use snowmobiles year-round, not to mention ski so.
The farmers in southern Idaho are already a month behind with their spring planting, if they started.
I woke up to snow on the ground this morning. Not a lot, just enough to turn the grass white. But I can’t remember it snowing in April before beyond more than a few flakes in the air, never anything that stuck. I am filing it under: Warmest year on record.
3 or 4 years ago the temperature dropped to 28 degrees and it snowed on April 15th. All garden seed planting instructions tell us to plant seeds when all danger of frost has passed, which is condered as April 15th here in central Missouri. I had not planned any seeds yet that year, but the cold killed all of the blossoms on my fruit trees.
Interesting thing:
On the local NOAA website, the current temperature seems to be “not available” about 50% of the time. Apparently, the government that could “put men on the Moon” (LOL) can not maintain a simple recording thermometer in 2018…. (Or is it that they’d rather have an excuse to “adjust the data” to fit their “Global Warming” scam?!).
See Tony Heller on station loss. Basically stations are disappearing and the measurements are being replaced with estimates. It’s all documented in the datasets but people just aren’t told. One has to go looking.
It is good to know that the governments’ meteorologists are equally adept at forecasting current conditions as they are at forecasting anything else.
That says a lot too, Brent. But I’m talking about stations which still exist….but where the thermometer is down about 50% of the time (Not any other data…just the temp!)- and I’ve been noticing this for many years.
It never gets “fixed” (But the data sure gets fixed! 😉 )
Years ago, I had even sent an email to the local NWS office, asking why the temp data is often missing- Answer?: “We’re having trouble with the equipment”. Who’d have thunk a thermometer would be so complicated that it couldn’t be repaired over the span of a decade, or so expensive that they couldn’t buy a new one?
Nunzio,
NOAA doesn’t collect any of the data on their website.
The NWS collects the part of it where they have a facility for that purpose. The readings for Cody, Wyoming are frequently not available because they are collected by automated instruments at that town’s airport which are located at and owned by the FAA office, which are as well maintained as their air traffic control facilities. Makes me glad to almost never fly.
Depends on where you are. It was pretty routine to see snow on a sunny day when I lived in Denver.
Of course it does. It’s not typical here. Certainly not typical since the warm march about 5 years ago was supposed to be global warming.
Wherever here is.
I can clearly remember the predictions of a mini-ice age being made during the first Earth Day when I was in high school.
The spring planting has been running up to a month or more late in southern Idaho.
The global warmers are becoming desperate: http://stopgeoengineeringtucson.com/
None of the hysterical predictions made by environmentalists over the last 50+ years has come to pass. NONE of them. Quite a record, but despite decades of lies all too many people are still conned by them.
Most “environmentalists” are just a motley assortment of collectivist control freaks looking for ways to forcibly impose their twisted values on the rest of us.
When I was a kid in the early 70’s, I remember my bro-in-law who worked in aerospace, telling me “In 20 years palm trees will be growing here” [On Long Island- i.e. lower NY].
Well, that 20 years expired more than 20 years ago now….still no palm trees on Long Island..but they have been having record snowfalls!
(For those who remember past discussions….my bro-in-law was the guy who observed that the Lunar Rover could hardly navigate the parking lot!)
Morning, Nunz!
I was really hoping that “climate” would “change” in a warmer direction…. it’s still cold here in SW Virginia and there is talk of snow this weekend…
Eric,
I hope that doesn’t mean that you believe that weather and climate are related. The IPCC has made a career of proving that is completely wrong.
Hi Bill,
You know me better’n that!
Same here, Eric!
Longest winter I’ve seen in my 17 years here- with sustained cold…whereas normally we’d only get occasional bouts of cold and many warm periods.
When I extricate myself from this Babylon, I’m going where it’s warm!
I WISH “global warming” were true!
I hope he didn’t work in a sector of the aerospace industry that required performance.
He was just a low level manager- repeating what the big wigs said about climate. (The Rover comment was his own observation).
I guess when you work for a business whose income is from government defense and space contracts, ya believe and promote their “science”.
I certainly hope that you haven’t spent the last 50 years observing them so that you could make such a statement which appears to be supported by the same scarcity of documentation. If you have, you are part of a large group, so you shouldn’t feel alone.
To quote a friend: “They have a record unblemished with success.”
I went to an auction of postal jeeps many years ago. They all had a decal on the dashboard warning that the vehicle could tip over if you took a turn too tight. Never saw the mailman hotrodding on my street. As for children and safety, I’ve yet to see airbags or even seat belts in a school bus.
I towed several of those but I’ve never driven one.
Why in the heck aren’t some of you Guys interested in that 2.8 Cummins drop in Diesel(it’s almost turnkey if you can hook up to your drivetrain)? they dropped the price to $7500 for awhile, with most accessories and the electronics thats, not a bad deal. Its dumbed down a little ( probably to preserve the Jeep drivetrains )I would imagine it could be tweaked up to the Frontiers 2.8 spec pretty easy( 220 Hp- jerk a knot in an old Willys) I would imagine the old F-Head “Hurricane” could stand a small turbo.
It might just be Me, vehicle stability never bothered me that much, if I thought it wouldn’t corner, all you had to do was slow down( Darwin awaits)
The worst part about the old Willys Dad had was the open differentials.
Frankly I don’t know why some people even bother moving to the country, a lot I know are not Home two hours then they are back on the road headed to town( and for Gods sake take down those silly ass burglar lights, the Darkness is natural and your friend{ a motion sensor will scare the Hell out of anyone trying to break in }
Ya stoledidid my line, Kevin! I was actually thinking of the 4BT…. Only if I could find one used though…$7500, and for pretty much just a long block at that….I can’t remember the last time I owned an entire vehicle that cost $7500!
It is interesting that it is made in Detroit.
Yeah…it comes from the factory with a busted-out windshield and all the copper wiring stripped out of it.
I have a 46 willys jeep completely 100% original restored. Total damage: $8K
Eric: IF the roxor engine passed emissions, we could buy the parts and assemble “replica cj’s” up to 350 vehicles a year.
I could do such a swap- no inspections here in KY.- I’d just be afeared that with 62 horsepower, Chevettes would be flying by me! (Seriously, if I wasn’t planning on flying the US coop, I could see myself doing this…just because it’d be so cool!)
I am going to get one. (I have a BIG backyard lol)
Buy a trailer and you can use it anywhere licenses aren’t required.
Be overkill for my 28 acres… (not to mention WAYYyyyyy over budget!)- Maybe I can talk my neighbor into getting one- he’s got 250 acres… (Pfffft! Yeah, right! Cheap Scot! Maybe if one shows up burnt at a salvage auction!)
In Montana you can register an ATV or UTV for road use. Should be the same with this.
But $15K is a little steep for me compared to $3K for a nice Jeep XJ. Same thing with the UTVs plus no heat in the winter.
The diesel mileage sounds nice (compared to 8-10 mpg off- and back-road for the XJ) but I wonder how it holds up to constant starting and stopping especially in cold weather?
Best vehicle I ever owned was a 74 Jeep CJ5. Pure bare boned machine. Did not even come with a radio. Fun to drive even with being top heavy. Straight six motor with plenty of room under the hood to work on it. Never had to pay someone else to do the work/maintenance on it. Bought it in 80 from the original owner for $3000 cash.
This Roxor sounds good especially the diesel engine but $15,000 seems about three grand too high.
Youse guys are making me want an old CJ! (Wouldn’t give ya two-cents for the modern Chrysler “Jeeps” though!)
Never owned a jeep until we bought the old XJ a couple years ago, but used to have a great time in our friends’ jeeps down in Colorado: everything from the old flat fenders up to a ~1970 that actually had a top! We all lived way up in the mountains anyway so could just take off for a couple hours in the summer evenings.
Getting stuck and then un-stuck was all part of the fun.
Most environmentalists miss the point when it comes to reduction of pollution. Let’s use automobiles as an example. A large “cost vs. benefit” ratio was beneficial when it came to controlling pollution from automobiles. Initially, it did not take much in the way of engineering to “clean up” approximately 85% of automobile pollution. Such environmentally responsible successes were made at minimal cost and did provide a true large benefit in minimizing pollution at the source.
As it stands now, automobiles are approximately 97% pollution-free. While it may have cost a small amount to clean up automobiles to this point, attempting to clean up the remaining 3% would cost thousands of dollars per vehicle–a cost-benefit ratio that is economically and environmentally unsustainable and unachievable.
Most environmentalists are neither scientists or economists and do not understand the implications of attempts to “clean up” the remaining small percentage of pollutants which are negligible.
A 97% reduction in automobile pollution should be considered a success, but to today’s luddite environmentalists, it is never enough.
A major problem is that most environmentalists base their faulty reasoning on emotion, rather than logic and scientific facts.
Sadly, it was a conspiracy among the Insurance Mafia that made vehicles like the Jeep CJ difficult to sell. Their tactics in this and other cases caused Uncle Stupid to create all these draconian rules about saaaaaaaaaaaafety to be applied to the vehicles we wanted to buy. They created their internal rules about the types of vehicles they would insure, and decided that if they didn’t meet certain standards that were developed by their own internal watchdog, that they would not insure them. And no insurance? No papers for the vehicle.
In other words, a conspiracy fact. The insurers conspired with the government to make certain vehicles impossible to use for their manufacturer’s intended purpose: To drive them on actual roads.
This gets complicated! The insurance companies prodding Uncle to decree safety standards for the vehicles which Uncle mandates that we insure….. It’s like two Mafia families banding together to ensure that everyone pays for “protection” from the ones who claim to be your protectors!
Nunzio, that was the exact point of the message. It all started with Ralph Nader, when he “deemed” the Corvair to be “Unsafe at Any Speed.” While he realized that he alone couldn’t get the Corvair banned from roads, he figured that if he caused enough public outcry, insurers would demand higher premiums to insure the drivers/car owners, and eventually, the public would avoid them, and the manufacturer (Chevrolet) would stop making them.
In 1986, my dad got a 1985 Jeep CJ-7. 1987 was the last year they were made, as they switched to the Wrangler. The cause was an alleged propensity for rollover accidents. Never was the issue of driver error addressed; they were just deemed unsafe, causing the insurance premiums for those still on the road to increase 40% year over year. He kept his for four years, before it was wrecked by another driver. It didn’t roll over, but the damage was extensive to the chassis. But it was a nudge by the insurance mafia to make them too expensive to want to drive, so that Uncle Stupid could create new vehicle rollover standards.
It is my contention that there is a multi-pronged approach to nudge us into fewer options, so that everything becomes standard. The problem is that there are some freedom-fighters that won’t take this lying down.
Travis, those freedom fighters must be relatives of Rip Van Winkle, ’cause the sun is setting on the day of freedom, and they still ain’t out of bed.
So true though, what ya say.
Real Jeeps were durable, AND they could go anywhere; were able to be modified to do just about anything; and were cheap and easy to maintain and repair, with ever-available simple standard parts- a veritable freedom-mobile…which i guess is why they had to be legislated out of existence.
Nah, just standard American fascism.
We left the barn as in horses leaving the barn a long time ago.
EPA law is so complicated you need a degree in it to actually understand it.
Everyone and his brother wanted to legislate EPA at one point in time.
That means that the law itself is unconstitutional as it contradicts itself over and over again.
A Christian Economist 20 years ago or more wanted a copy of the laws concerning EPA.
He was told it would take 10 semi-trucks to deliver the law to his house.
This “law” is governed by regulation. And those regulations are so complicated that only an insider at the EPA actually knows what laws can be applied and which ones are ignored.
So why do the courts allow it? It is a farce at best. The truth is that they dare not throw it off the books.
Only when it becomes a public issue with lawyers leaking the information to the public will anything ever be done and don’t hold your breathe. It is highly unlikely to happen.
If we had any sense, any law too complicated for an ordinary citizen with a 6th grade education to understand it, should be thrown off the books now. Won’t happen. It is a lawyer’s bread and butter.
Until the entire house of cards falls apart naturally nothing will get done.
That day is coming.
Engineers know. Engineers could have put together an engine polution free years ago. I suggest they are legally bound to produce the junk they produce today. The reason the foreign cars are better is they are not bound by obsolete antitrust laws. They develop cars under government supervision and money in co-operation with one another.
Amen! And well-said, David!
It has already been well documented that the true goal of environmentalism is to destroy capitalism- and as such, that must also be the true goal of the EPA- along with the covert application of other aspects of the overlords agenda- like: Destroying our ability to travel about freely in privately-owned cars.
These EPA regs are responsible for cars becoming such technological nightmares that they are both expensive to produce and buy, and economically unsustainable to own and maintain once out of warranty- essentially disposable vehicles, which cost anywhere from the low $20K’s to $100K or more…. And since they can not just openly decree such things (not quite YET anyway), they rely upon complexity of endless statutes, and the ability to hide them in not-so-plain sight by surrounding them with reams of words……
This tactic, -practiced in virtually every sphere of government- has been the Bolshevik Revolution for America.
Environmentalism has been the method used to impose communist principles on western society–especially in the USA.
Environmentalists are not content with promoting clean water, air and land, but are hell-bent on controlling human behavior, and yes, promoting extermination plans for much of humanity as these “anointed” types consider mankind to be a pestilence (except for themselves) to be reduced in population “by any means necessary”.
Environmentalists HATE the God-given concept of private property and have imposed government-backed and enforced “land use controls” on private property owners without compensation–clearly an unconstitutional “taking” of private property. If environmentalists want to control land use, let them purchase it themselves–not by government force. Today the only method of negating government-imposed land use restrictions is “shoot, shovel, and shut up”.
If environmentalists had their way, the earth’s human population would be reduced by approximately 90%, with the remainder to (be forced) to live in cities, in soviet-style high rise apartments, utilizing bicycles, buses and trains for transportation. The use of automobiles and access to “pristine wilderness (rural) areas” would be off-limits to us mere mortals, and would only be available for these “anointed” environmentalists.
The “endangered species act” is another abuse of environmentalism. Species are always changing, to adapt to their environments–”survival if the fittest”. In fact, the hoopla over the “spotted owl” (that placed much northwest timber land “off-limits” to logging) turned out to be nothing but scientific misconduct and arrogance. There are virtually identical species in other parts of the northwest.
More scientific malpractice occurred when government biologists attempted to “plant” lynx fur in certain areas to provide an excuse for making those areas “off-limits” for logging or development. Fortunately, these “scientists” were caught–however, no punishment was given.
In a nutshell, today’s environmentalism IS communism… like watermelon…”green” on the outside and “red” (communist) on the inside…
It is interesting to note that communist and third-world countries have the WORST environmental conditions on the planet. Instead of the USA and other developed countries spending billions to get rid of that last half-percent of pollution, it would behoove the communist countries to improve their conditions first.
anarchyst, in the name of “saving” animals and parts of the environment some big whoppers have been told by those who wish to exert control….of something, anything, in the case of many of them, just so they feel like they can dominate other people in some way.
Winter of ’81/’82 found a friend and I hunting deer together and giving lie to the red wolf being extinct. The one we saw was moving quite well. Of course it was probably a grey wolf coming back from the salon with a fresh color. You know how vain wolves can be.
2014 and I’m off in an oil lease N of Midland, Tx. and come on this big dog that appeared to be half red wolf and half coyote. I was astounded to say the least.
Later that day I mention the animal to another person who said “Yep, this country is full of them(and it was I’d later find out)”. He goes on to say some person in NM had crossed red wolves with coyotes and turned them loose in both NM and Tx. I’ve seen enough since that it’s obvious they breed and multiply quite well.
A couple weeks ago I looked out the kitchen window that looks over the tank and see a big, red, furry dog on the other side of the tank. I get out my nocs and there are two of them. My pit is out there raising hell and when I walk out on the back side of the tank dam where they can’t see me he tears out after them. Soon, he’s tearing back…..with 4 of them on his ass. Of course my .243 didn’t make it through the thick brush so I could see one up close and personal.
Now I need to get some powder for my .54 that should cut a respectable rut through that stuff.
Just to give an idea of how rapidly things change, in my part of the world we’ve gone from having virtually no deer, either white tail or muley’s to having the Boone and Crockett state records for 2 years in a row in our county for white tail. We had very few turkey which are now replete and while there have always been cougars, they are much more common than 60 years ago as I was reminded this morning on a road I was on in the shinery and a large one crossed the road in front of me.
Then there’s the “mythical” chupacabra of which I killed two in 2002 and have seen 2 more this year. It’s not often you shoot something that doesn’t exist.
8, are ya sure it wasn’t a Red(d) Fox(x)?. [<- can be distinguished by it's foul odor and extremely profane language]
The foul odor would be a result of having been rotting since October 11, 1991. Redd Foxx played the same game as Bill Cosby.
Apparently their “victims” liked playing those games too- since they often kept their mouths shut for several decades, and were quite content to take advantage of the proceeds of the games…..
Holy crud! Has Fred S-A-N-F-O-R-D-period been in the bone yard that long already?!
Why would their supposed victims be any different from any other elitists’?
We have a few around here (Cougars wink , wink endangered species, have to shut down hunting for a 25 mile radius ,)so Nah, I didn’t see a thing .
Speaking of hunting….
Hey Eric, how’s the dino-hunting going? Any sightings of Cankle-saurus wrecks lately? 😉
Are there any laws preventing us from buying the Roxor engine and putting it in a 90’s TJ?
Hi DD,
If you have to deal with (and pass) emissions inspections, it’s a no-go. But if you live in an area that does not require smog check, you could do this and “get away” with driving the thing!
Hmmm…Roxor injun puts out 62HP vs. CJ5’s already anemic 75HP….wonder how that’d be in the real world, on the road? Although the Roxor has a plastic body (That kinda kills it for me….I think, knowing that, I’d rather just pick up an old CJ…)
Oooo! Not good! CJ5 weight: 2163 lbs. Roxor weight just over 3,000 lbs.
I have a feeling the governor isn’t the only thing limiting that Roxor to 45MPH. CJ5 with 12 more HP than the Roxor and 1000 lbs. less weight can only do 60…
3000 lbs for a plastic-bodied Jeep?! So much for plastic!
Nunz, thanks for the tip on the plastic body. Did not know that. But what kind of “plastic” is it? Is it a polymer type of tough plastic or just cheap plastic? Probably cheap coming from China I suppose.
Polyurethane, Skunk…. Although, some places I look say steel? Now I don’t know what to believe! Quite a difference. Plastic would kill it for me.
Eric? What say ye? Do ya know?
Sorry, Skunk and all- I think it IS steel! Wikipedia says steel. Mahindra site doesn’t say either way. Most sites say steel…only a few say poly… I think it is steel- based on scrutiny of the pics too.
Hi Nunz,
Yeah, but check the torque numbers of the turbodiesel engine.
Granted, it’s not a land speed record-setter But it’s probably just as capable of handling road speeds as a ’70s CJ…
Top O’the Mornin; To Ya, Eric!
Yes, lower HP and RPMs/higher torque, as to be expected from Herr Diesel’s fine invention! Hard to say how it’d perform. If it could do 60, that’d be great. 45 though or a li’l over with the governor removed…..really wouldn’t be good fer much (I may be old and blind, but that’s just too damn slow, even for local roads!)
The thing could probably pull a stump out twice the size of what a li’l gas-injunned CJ could though!
Damn…if only we were free!
What is the feasibility of getting an emission approved Mahindra tractor engine to fit?
Why bother? It’s still just as valid for on road use as what’s already in there. That is, it isn’t. I don’t think there is anything that burns hydrocarbon fuel sold new in the USA that does not have to pass emissions requirements. What it is determines what the requirements are.
I once traded a Honda Dream for a 1948 Willys with a Rambler Nash 196 flathead in it.
If you stood on the front bumper and jumped up and down, you could make it move about 1/2 inch.
Miss Adventure I called her. Yeah, the good old days..
The whole car “safety” nonsens is absurd. You can buy and ride a motorcycle that’s 28X more likely to get you injured or killed than any auto, because. Except for the helmet (mandated by govt.), you are exposed directly to harm. I don’t want to outlaw Harleys, of course. But why can’t I buy a car that is as safe as one from 2000, let alone 1970, just not as “safe” as a 2019 new car?
I’ve uttered those exact same words myself, many times.
Just like they’ll arrest and cage someone for possessing a plant…but meanwhile his neighbor or the pig who arrested him can drink a fifth of vodka every night.
NOx will always be created because our atmosphere is 80% nitrogen. So 80% of the air entering an engine is nitrogen. The levels of NOx going out the exhaust in ANY modern engine are so low as really to be immeasureable. We are talking low ppm here. Even in third world cars, the NOx levels are ridiculously low. it is nothing more than psychopaths posing as bureaucrats that the NOx standard is being made law.
ATV type things like anything else have emissions requirements so this thing is going to have to be reasonably clean to be sold as it is being sold.
Hi Brent,
An interesting thing about this one is its five-speed transmission. I haven’t been able to find the gearing numbers but hopefully it’s a five-speed overdrive….
Hey Ya, Eric!
I doubt it… Isn’t the top speed of this thing like 45MPH? I’d love to think that this was a diesel version of a real [“real” as in honest-to-goodness clone of a tough old Jeep] old Jeep…but I’m kinda thinking that if we were to see one of these in-person, it would be pretty rickety, like many of the UTVs.
I sure wish an unbiased person, such as yourself, could get your hands on one for a review!
Nunzio,
The Roxor is electronically limited to 45mph. It’s not a shortcoming of the drivetrain.
Actually if you look around, you’ll see that these are pretty rugged. Curb weight is just over 3000#, and the frame is fully boxed.
Mahindra has made honest to God Willy’s on license for decades. Their current Thar, from which the Roxor was derived, is essentially an evolution of the original Willys (IFS instead of SFA for one).
Wow! What a pity- we can have Rube Goldberg contraptions on wheels, with heated leather seats and AWD that’ll break it you run over a wet leaf……but a good old simple Jeep….no- that might be too functional! (And one that gets phenominal mileage too, no less!)
Sick bastard traitors who run this country!
I’ve never seen a Roxor, but the Mahindra tractors are all steel and tough as hell.
Near as I can tell, it’s the same engine used in other Mahindra vehicles like the Bolero, and meets European emissions standards.
Here in Michigan, it is possible to get such a vehicle registered as an “assembled vehicle”. I did this with a military M-151 jeep with no difficulty. Despite being considered “unsafe” because of the suspension, I had no problem registering and driving it.
Further research suggests that it might be made street legal in NH, albeit with significant restrictions.
The last Democrat controlled legislature and governor closed some loopholes, and further restricted the use that remained (speeds, payload, range from home, etc).
That said, it might be far easier to avoid getting caught in the Roxor, than other utv like the Razor. It won’t stand out as much just on appearance, and if the governed 45mph limit were circumvented, one could very likely fit in on the road in most instances.
Because this company has had license to Jeep designs for decades much of this vehicle as reported by other websites has significant interchangeability with older jeep products. With a little creativity it should be possible to pass it off as a modified old Jeep if one has a title with a VIN for one or get it registered as a home built after doing some work to it.
FreakNH:
Sadly, I suspect that anti-Trumpism will result in a landslide win for the Evil Party and their screaming Bolshevik minions in NH this fall, eager and champing at the bitt to roll back the minor successes in gaining some freedoms back that we’ve had over the last few years.
Look for the incoming statist horde in Concord to get busy passing income taxes, seat belt laws, helmet laws, gun control, restrictions on home schooling and bans on everything from tobacco to fireworks.
AF = A fellow Granite Stater
FSP mover? Or native?
I always wanted a CJ or Wrangler, but the cost of the new model is pretty hefty.
While in theory it starts at around $28k, it’s actually pretty hard to get it at that price, unless you actually want a base model with no options. The way Jeep packages options, it basically forces you up to higher trims for even basic, yet typically desired things.
So I’ve been checking the laws in NH to see if there’s a loophole that could accommodate the Roxor. Home built, not car, etc. So far I haven’t found a sure thing.
There’s fundamentally no reason it shouldn’t be allowed on public roads. SxS, utv, 4 wheelers are allowed on the main roads in certain NH towns, to get to and from the trails, and the Roxor is arguably better suited. It has all the lights and signals required for a road legal vehicle. And NH doesn’t even have a seatbelt or helmet requirement (>18). I’m sure there’s a a way to circumvent the 45mph restriction.
If I could justify buying one for strictly off road purposes, I might just take a shot and try to register and and get it inspected. The physical inspection requirements should be straight forward. NH requires an OBD test for emissions on 1996 and newer cars (gas…1997 for diesel). I don’t know if the Roxor has an OBD port, but many SxS like the Rzr have them nowadays. Worth a shot if I was buying it anyways.
The diesel may emit less total pollution( almost a no brainer) I think what you find on a good .hot ,clean burning diesel engine is the NOX almost no way to get around it on something with combustion temperatures that high( you could feed it pure O2 then no NOX emissions )The early diesels were touted as burning air as well as fuel.
The real goal of the government is to get us addicted to debt , you can never be free as long as you are a wage slave.No matter the good intentions the result is the same ,Gov’t 1, People 0
Kevin, “The real goal of the government is to get us addicted to debt , you can never be free as long as you are a wage slave.”
Spot on! Glad to see others starting to realize exactly what the “American Dream” is really all about.
There is the old saying that the things you own end up owning on you. While true it has been twisted so that now the things you are making payments on – things not even truly owned by you – possess you. As does the system and those who control and profit from it.
Yep! Eliminate debt and taxes, and most “insurance’, and ya can live like a king on practically nothing. I’m living proof of it. Thank goodness I was raised to avoid debt. That one principle served me well. ’cause once ya get hooked into the system, it’s near impossible to get out; and unless ya resist their trap from childhood, you’ll basically be on a course of preparing for wage-slavery and acquiring debt from teenagehood.
I consider it a rare and great blessing to have been able to livie my life without having to work at a 9-5 job. Maximizing one’s time and being free, THOSE are the true riches. Money is nothing- which is why those who devote their lives to acquiring lots of it are usually the most miserable. Having no debt and owning all of your possessions outright is PRICELESS (as is the realization that ya don’t need a lot of crap to be happy)
Hmmm….come to think of it: A lot of people in my fambly seem to have figured out (even if unintentionally/subconciously) to avoid debt and the 9-5…. Maybe that’s why so many of ’em stay healthy and active into their late 80’s/90’s.
(That, and the fact that we seem to have a lot who have never married!)
“special construction” is one way to circumvent and get this thing registered. Just has to be shipped to you in pieces, and you re-assemble.
It would cost a lot more as parts FOB Detroit.
Seems like a good candidate for parts for a “frame off” restoration of a CJ.
Indeed, Michael… indeed!
I have had similar eeeevil thoughts in re Mexican Beetles…
eric, I have been on the look for a Detroit 6V53 to put in my ’82 Silverado that started life as a 6.2 diesel and now has a dead 454. 4WD, 4.10 gears and 3/4 T with one ton axles it would be a stump puller and an aural joy to drive. Fire up that hornet’s nest and go for it.
Had my hands on one of those old squarish 4-71s the other year couldn’t get this ole Chevy fanatic to buy it( work on the rack or rail a little and she would distort your transfer case .)
While the Roxor does have many similarities, it’s more of a mix of actual or modified CJ parts, and proprietary gear. And the CJ influence comes from a mix of models. Jalopnik had a good article on the comparison.
Seems to me that $15,000 is s bit steep for a handful of interchangeable parts.
Mahindra’s also makes the Thar for the Indian market, which is more of a direct copy of the Willys. They’ve been making it on license for decades. But even that has been modified with IFS and some domestic parts.
It may not have air bags and a padded dash, but it DOES have cup holders. What else do you need? Maybe/possibly Trump and his EPA are now starting to look at the insanity of the CAFE standards, and at least getting rid of the California exemption. It’s a start.
….Maybe he’ll rescind enough of the BS to make these street-legal! But of course, after the trade tariffs take effect, these things’ll end up costing as much as a real Jeep! (Not that a real Jeep is a real Jeep anymore…they’re Chryslers now…)
I love the idea of these things- the Roxor…. but after having seen some Mahindra tractors, I kinda think even $15K would be too much for one of these. (They tend to use good old bulletproof designs for their mechanicals- but with varying degrees of quality of manufacture and often poor assembly quality. The electrical systems are the worst. Seen people buy brand new tractors and have electrical issues from practically day one….and Mahindra’s warranties are virtually worthless….)
I wonder if the Chinese hava version of this? Their stuff appears to be getting better.
Where did you get such specious premises? Even Rush Limbaugh likes Mahindra tractors well enough to have them as a sponsor.
Yeah, I’d like them too if they gave me lots of money! I’ve seen a few people locally who have there tractors. Yeah, they SEEM pretty sturdy, as the mechanicals are clones of tried-and-true good old designs, which is great…but in practice, a lot of the bolt-on stuff is really cheap Chineesium or Indian junk, and the electrical systems are nightmares.
People buy ’em thinking “I’ll have a brand new tractor, so I won’t have to mess with all the li’l piddling things always going wrong on my old tractor”- but they end up wishing for their old tractors back in very short order.
You see a lot of almost new ones up for sale…they sit, and don’t sell, unless they are given away cheap. Gotta pay a “service fee” of a few hundred bucks every time they take ’em in for a warranty issue. Ends up being cheaper to do it themselves.
So there they are, with a new tractor, and still fixing things… A lot of it isn’t entirely Mahindra’s fault though. Some is due to the “saaaaaaaaafety” regs, and all the crap they have to put on ’em to meet the regs- interlock switches and stuff.
Mahindra used to have a contract to make military equipment for uncle, if the price was right I would buy one( the Green paint is getting too expensive) Whats the deal with New Holland , people around here that used to go Green now have the Blues and there is a lot of them , the only thing more popular are the Kubotas for the small timers .( I hate the plastic on the John Deeres its ultra expensive to replace( thats why there are so many “Hoodless” John Deere riding mowers around here{thought about starting a cottage industry making decent gauge steel replacement hoods for John Deere Riders- wouldn’t be that hard to fab a nice looking Hood for your favorite JD Rider}
One thing to remember about basically any tractor ,if you have a little mechanical savy you can keep em’ running( even the East Bloc stuff)
JD sure ain’t what it used to be. Between making cheese now, and the “you buy the tractor but only lease the software that runs it” thing, I’d say their days are number.
I almost bought a nice old JD c. 45HP a few months ago…nice tractor, but the tranny was whacked.
I could wish the Injun and Chinese brands were better… “American” brands, with their dinosaur marketing structure in which 10 different people get a mark-up, makes parts so expensive, I dunno who buys ’em. -Not that I’d be buying a brand new tractor anyway…but DAYUM!
There’s been a guy on Craigslist here trying to sell a Zetor for the last 2 years….LOL.
$100.00 an hour if you aren’t required to go to the stealership for service, where they charge somewhere between $200-250/hr (at least where I live) just to diagnose a potential problem.