They’re rioting in France over the government’s imposition of artificial fuel scarcity.
There’s no actual shortage; the country – the world – is swimming in fuel, courtesy of new discoveries and new extraction techniques.
Parisians just can’t afford to buy it because of French President Emmanuel Macron’s “hydrocarbon tax” regime – specifically designed to make fuel unaffordable, as a compensatory measure to correct for its abundance and the low prices that would otherwise be the case.
As here.
Adjusted for inflation, the cost of gasoline is less in real terms than it was in 1965. And a huge chunk of the cost today is taxes – about 50 cents per gallon. Take that away and gas would only cost about $2 per gallon.
Diesel fuel – despite the add-on costs of having to refine it to the nth degree in order to achieve compliance with federal Ultra Low Sulfur fatwas – is also very affordable, about $2.60 per gallon.
This, of course, is a big problem for the getting-people-out-of-their-cars agenda. Of which Macron (the Beto O’ Rourke of the French) is a leading avatar.
Which agenda had pinned its hopes on the perception of naturally rising fuel prices (also artificially created, via the withholding of oil) as the nudge they needed to get people to give up their cars voluntarily.
But the Peak Oil that’s been promised – threatened – for more than half a century never peaked.
Worse – from the standpoint of those who want to get-us-out-of-cars – is that the opposite has happened. More oil has been found. Oceans of the stuff. So much oil has been discovered that despite a more than doubling of worldwide demand, supply has increased even faster.
This has eliminated the excuse for all the government-imposed austerity measures of the past 50 years – everything from the “Drive 55” water torture we endured from the mid-1970s until the mid-1990s to the Corporate Average Fuel Economy fatwas that are literally destroying the car industry.
And the disappearance of that excuse is an obsidian dagger pointed at the heart of the Electric Car Agenda, which is really an anti-car, anti-mobility agenda. The object is to get people out of their cars. To get them under control. EVs are just the shuck-and-jive used to gull the modern-day version of Lenin’s useful idiots.
Bottom line: If fuel is plentiful then there is no reason for “alternatives” to it.
At least, no reason for most people to freely give up their affordable, quick-to-refuel and long-ranged non-electric cars in favor of expensive, takes-forever-to-recharge and range-gimped EVs.
And this is the reason for the hysteria we’re witnessing – from governments like Macron’s as well as ours – attended by the courtier press, which sings the “climate change” chorus at top volume, to drown out the problem of cheap, abundant fuel.
And for Macron’s “hydrocarbon tax.”
It has caused the price per liter of diesel fuel in France to swell by almost 25 percent over by the past year, to about $7 per gallon as of late November. This is a very big deal in France because more than half the passenger cars on the road are diesel-powered.
They became so popular because of artificially rising gas prices. The French government, like other European governments, has been imposing haltingly regressive taxes on gas for decades.
A diesel-powered car goes farther on a liter of fuel than an equivalent gas-burning car. Buying a diesel-powered car was thus an end run around government-manufactured unleaded regular austerity.
Now, it’s diesel that’s in the crosshairs – precisely because it is abundant, efficient and affordable.
And it’s not just the fuel, either.
The French government has issued decrees forbidding diesel-powered cars made in 2005 or before from entering Paris and will progressively increase these bans until diesel-powered cars are outlawed altogether.
This, of course, renders those cars – several hundred thousand of them – useless to their owners, who will not be compensated for the regulatory taking. Instead, they will be nudged to become parasitical upon their fellow Frenchmen, by partaking of subsidies for . . . electric cars.
Until, of course, those become the object of future bans. Which, rest assured, they will be. Remember: The real issue is mobility. Limiting, controlling and denying it – to average people.
Never, of course, to the elites. Macron will have all the diesel and gas he likes. Paid for by those who can no longer afford it themselves. Saving on fuel can be tough but never when you have them.
And there’s more.
All IC powered cars (diesel and gas) will be prohibited from operating in the French capital beginning in 2030 and a ban on their sale in the whole country goes into effect in 2040. Similar measures are either in process or already on the books in other European countries, including the UK and Germany.
And this is why there is such unglued hysteria – displayed by the car companies and the government – for electric cars here, too.
Major automakers headquartered in Europe such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volvo, Renault, VW/Audi, Jaguar/Land Rover and Alfa have had their businesses shut down by regulatory edict.
They will go electric – or they will not go at all.
And because of that, so will we.
Even if Uncle doesn’t impose no-driving/no IC fatwas and/or confiscatory fuel taxes, the rip-tide effect of what is going on right now in Europe will almost certainly drag us along.
Consider: Half of the world’s major car companies have “committed” – that is, been forced to accept – an all-electric future because of what is going on in Europe. They aren’t going to continue investing R&D money into the development of a separate line of non-electric cars, even if they are still allowed to sell them here. So they will sell electric cars here and – having embraced the tar baby – push for mandates that they be sold and for subsidies to help sell them.
GM and Ford will do so also – have already committed publicly to the same agenda. In part because they can’t afford to not sell cars in Europe, which are huge markets for them both.
China, too.
It’s not personal – just business. Like Michael Corleone said.
. . .
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This idiot clover Fred is taking up too much of your time and space, Eric. Ban the gov’t troll. He is a true snowflake and in dire need of a blow job (to quote Robin Williams).
joeallen,
Don’t ban Fred Eric, I enjoy the banter!
Hi Adam,
I won’t!
He’s easy meat…
Climate change!!!!!
Yep. It’s called weather.
And it changes every day.
If you don’t believe me, buy a weather rock.
a dry rock means fair weather.
a wet rock means it’s raining.
a dusty rock means a dust storm.
a swaying rock means it’s windy.
a shadow under the rock means it’s sunny.
a white rock means it’s snowing.
if the rock is jumping up and down, an earthquake is upon us.
if the bottom of the rock is under water it’s a flood.
If you can’t see the rock it’s foggy.
If the rock is gone it’s a tornado.
For fucks sake, don’t be a retard.
trump to cut GM subsidies?How about ALL subsidies for EV’s.Yes,that is MY take on EV subsidies.EV ‘s are still coming.Like it or not.Just change EV for gay marriage,Newsom is calling it,like it or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC5K_0uRNCQ
I DONT MAKE EV’S,ITS NOT MY PREFERENCE OF VEHICLE,IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH???
Excoriate me for pointing out the Globalists have decided they do want them and they are coming.Put your heads in the sand.BTW,windmills will never work! Solar cells will never work!Not like I didnt see that coming,and I said the same thing,its coming! And it has.It was more less mandated,and costs have dropped and they have gotten much better.
Well,see anything similar?EV’s ARE coming. Just how it is,until you overthrow the world,its a done deal.Look around you.Open your eyes,tell me it isnt happening and expanding.Because it is.
Fred,
You might try to contain your enthusiasm for Stalinist make-work projects….
What part of NOT MY CHOICE OF VEHICLE do you not understand??? Its still coming. When you change that,let me know.Love to hear it.
Ad hominem attacks.A clover is someone who see’s the past,present and the ‘in your face’ future thats happening,then i am one.What a fool I am.
When personal attacks is best you have if others have a different opinion,and cant accept they do,you dont have much.
I will refrain from personal attacks on you,though.I could toss barbs at you,I dont play that game though.Im better than that.
The Corleone family knew exactly how the system worked. And the government picked up on it; it just took them a few more years.
The only difference between the government and the mafia is that one of them is legitimized by their own laws.
Hi Travis,
Also, the Corleones were more honest. They didn’t tell you it was about saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety or for your health or to save the planet. It was business, that’s all.
The global warming alarmists are the other side of the doomsday prepper coin. The preppers believe the end times are neigh, so do the global warming alarmists. They’re both doing whatever they can to avoid destruction that the anticipated collapse in society will bring. Well, I read the Bible, including Revelation, and I read a lot of narratives about what will happen to Earth in a few million years (guess what, turns out that darn Sun will end up burning the Earth anyway) and none of it bodes well for humans. Either way I don’t think I’ll have any impact on any of it, nor will any of that end times BS happen in my lifetime.
Too many cranks, charlatans and scaremongers trying to get me to do what they want. Just like listening to the carnival barkers on CNBC telling us that 2008 was the end of the world and that the crisis was averted only due to their histrionic action. But now that they “guided” the economy back on track it’s a great time to buy!
Both AGW and prepper crowds love to twist the facts and project out to the worst case scenario as the only possible outcome. Later when the worst case fails to pan out they can crow about how much worse the outcome would have been had precaution not be taken. And of course Hollywood loves to make stories that reenforce their views, after all who doesn’t like to imagine they’re going to be the antagonist who survives against the odds? They’re the exception. Well, the Black Plague didn’t care what your social status was, nor how pious you were or even how productive you were.
And finally both camps want you to join them. No idea why, since if the place does fall apart if you’re not ready you’ll be dead and more stuff for them. But they don’t want to hear any disagreement or debate, no matter how logical or thought out it might be. If you doubt you’re a problem that has to be brought around or eliminated. And if you play along, be ready for sackcloth and ashes, and maybe some good old flagellation too. Better to suffer a little today in exchange for eternal bliss, if only you’d come around to their way of thinking. If we don’t prop up electrification of the transportation sector by putting up with substandard solutions today how can technology progress? If we don’t go through the expensive exercise of building an off-grid house how will we survive when the bad guys shut the grid down?
“Winter is coming” is the tagline of a popular fantasy TV series. I think a lot of people want to think that. But we have thousands of years of technological progress on our side to combat the elements and create a permanent summer, at least in small bubbles. We didn’t where we are by worrying about some far-off gloom and doom, we got it by taking care of immediate needs and Randian selfishness. To think that Elon Musk or Al Gore are being driven by altruism is laughable at best. They’re in it for the money power and glory every bit as much as any entrepreneur. They just chose a different tack that fits better with their abilities.
Oh and if you had listened to the Gerald Celentes of the world and bought up gold in 2008 you’d be crying about how bad your portfolio is looking these days.
The precious metal market is rigged. JP Morgan was caught rigging silver prices.
I believe the major difference between the AGW and Prepper crowds is that the AGW says, “The world will end if WE aren’t in charge to control every aspect of society.” The Preppers, on the other hand, say, “The way society is being run by the “experts” will implode under the weight of it’s contradictions so YOU better be ready when the SHTF.”
AGW says they have the answers, and Preppers say their “answers” are the problem. That’s hardly the two sides of the same coin.
They both want to see civilization uprooted. They both believe the outcome will benefit them over you.
AGWs attitude is that They, and only they, can Save The Planet. That if only we, the great unwashed, would allow them control Utopia would be achieved. They hate humanity in the process.
Preppers don’t want to see the worst come to pass but, can’t see how it can be avoided with the daily efforts of the AGWs, Globalists and Socialists of various stripe. They pass along their concerns and what they see as ways to ameliorate the impact. How is that a desire to see the world collapse to their benefit and my expense?
Interesting discussion. I’m pretty much in agreement with Todd’s thoughts on this with the added view that these people believe climate change is real (which probably is if you can believe 99% of the scientific community) and that they have a responsibility to act forcefully on reducing carbon emissions for the good of the planet. As for Fred, I think he’s a realist who’s resigned to the inevitability of it all and is simply too tired, too old to fight it at his point in his life. Ultimately the problems we are seeing globally is that there’s simply too many humans on the planet chasing after and competing for limited resources. Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on your views on such matters) if a pandemic or big war were to kill off 90% of the human population, pretty well all these problems would disappear.
meant to say “… they believe they have a responsibility to act forcefully on reducing carbon emissions for the good of the planet.”
Hi Steve,
The “climate change” thing is a bogey – and the very term ought to give you pause. It’s luminously unscientific because science is specific. “Climate change” can be anything – and that is precisely why it is being used. It cannot be gainsaid. Unusually warm summer? Climate change? Unusually cold winter? Climate change.
Also, the climate constantly changes – both at the micro and macro level. Days, seasons, years – epochs. To paraphrase what you wrote, “99 percent” of this is indisputably natural because prior to about 150 years ago, it is not possible to claim any human role whatsoever. Yet the Earth has experienced extremes of temperature; higher and lower C02 (and other gas) levels over the past several billion years.
If the climate is changing now, it may be entirely natural. Or man may have some slight role. The latter has not been proved. It has been grossly exaggerated. To scare people into accepting the things we are talking about.
Hint: Why is it that the government isn’t imposing austerity measures on itself, if the “crisis” is so real?
Hi eric,
The point I was making is that I think people in power believe the science on climate change is true, is real and the changes since about the beginning of the industrial revolution are occurring at a faster and increasing rate than in the geologic past. They believe the mean global temperature is slowly rising, that it’s due to human activities, principally from burning fossil fuels, and they believe it’s a crisis that must be managed and controlled, no matter what the cost. IMO that’s what’s at the heart of it.
Hi Steve,
Some of the lower echelon dupes are no doubt sincere, but the higher-ups know it’s just another way to maintain and increase their control over the population (and make money).
The “changes” you cite are by no means abnormal and by no means has it been established that they are the result of industrial activity. Correlation is not (always) causation.
This whole thing reeks to heaven of demagoguery and manipulation. Do you see the high priests of “climate change” in government and outside of government imposing a regime of energy austerity upon themselves? Why is it always us making the “sacrifices” for whatever the trotted-out-excuse-of-the-moment is?
According to the late Reid Bryson, the scientist considered the father of modern climate science, it is to be expected that temperatures would be rising because we are still emerging from the Little Ice Age. He called the idea of human-caused global warming “a bunch of hooey”.
Anyone who actually examines it can see that the idea of human-caused climate change is junk science at its worst. Cherry-picked data fed into faulty computer simulations, with data contrary to the desired results conveniently lost or ignored. We had a saying in the early days of the computer industry, “Garbage in, garbage out” and that is what we are dealing with here. To the masses of useful idiots clamoring for their chains it is a religion, down to the language used in decrying unbelievers as “deniers”.
The people who are really in power, and those who desire more power, see this as an opportunity to further their own agenda. The UN was founded to become the seat of global government and sees this as THE issue that will propel them into that role. Governments the world over salivate over the power and wealth they will accumulate using the natural phenomenon of climate change, and the nonsensical idea that THEY will control the earth’s climate, as an excuse.
THAT’S what’s at the heart of it.
I have said it here before, but it’s the alarmist’s not the deniers that have convinced me its a total fraud.
Hi Rich,
Amen, me also. The hysteria triggers my radar, especially because it’s mixed with the hypocrisy which has always characterized these “some animals are more equal than others” scams. I always ask people who fall for “climate change” and practically beg for energy austerity how come the government (and other elites) aren’t practicing the same austerity themselves. . . ? I mean, if it really is a global crisis it affects us all . . . right?
And yet, the F/A 18s run training flights over my house almost every day… What is the “carbon footprint” of an F/A 18?
IIRC the F18 can carry ~20,000lbs of fuel and needs a refill in less than three hours. So, CF=MASSIVE. Not even counting the various support logistics.
And BTW;
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Gas-Prices/Natural-Gas-Prices-Fall-Below-Zero-In-Texas.html
“But the Permian is also home to skyrocketing natural gas production, and output is growing so fast that drillers are trying to give it away for free. When they can’t, they just burn it off into the atmosphere.”
The weather and climate have been man’s fault for at least six thousand years. Bad climate and bad weather have always been the result of people’s sins. A failure to pray enough, a failure to sacrifice enough, a failure to obey. A failure to live modestly enough. I could go on. But today’s CO2 driven climate change is just a modern expression of the age old “truth”.
I’ll believe climate change is a real threat to the planet when I see the building of lots of new nuclear power plants and wholesale conversion of vehicles to LNG (or better yet H2 supplied by nuclear power plant produced electricity and heat processes). Oh and how could I forget, the dollar goes back to a gold standard and the greenback petrodollar is demonetized. Until then I won’t worry about it. Because it seems like all that’s happening today is screwing around with the gingerbread not actually changing the fundamental structure of what we burn. All of the installed wind power in the world can’t hold a candle to a half dozen or so nuclear power plants (as of 2016, 486,790 MW of wind capacity was installed world-wide. Palo Verde Nuclear Generating station’s capacity is 3.3 GW, an order of magnitude more (Wikipedia)).
China and India are the only countries building nuclear power plants. Either they understand the problem and are willing to take the necessary steps to remedy it, or there’s no problem. But we aren’t going to get zero CO2 with windmills and solar panels, unless we want to freeze, boil and starve people. But try telling that to the politicians. They’ve been suckered by the greens who know full well they’re going to kill people with their reckless actions. But abundance is bad, at least to the greens, who believe that we’re supposed to suffer (well, we are). And now that they’re in, they are training others. It’s a pretty good gig, being that close to political power. You get to live in places like Aspen (Amory Lovins at the Rocky Mountain Institute), hob nob with the elites at Davos (Fatih Birol, head of the International Energy Agency), or be invited to give a TED talk or two (James Hansen, Adjunct Professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences at Columbia University’s Earth Institute and someone who probably never worked a day in his life).
I’ll believe in CO2 driven climate change when
1) The data adjustments are not the signal.
2) Countries that agree with the technocratic elite managed future are held to account on not only CO2 but pollution as well.
But so far I am told that I should believe the experts because they are experts even though 5th grade science told me they aren’t following proper practices and that China and India and everywhere else get to make up points on pollution and CO2. (which I think they already more than exceeded but haven’t done the math yet).
With the forced change to EVs, get ready for mileage taxes.
With the forced change to EVs, get ready for mileage taxes….yup,and it wont be pretty.I see variable time of use rates,just like toll roads.Climate change is BS,pollution is real.If the leftists need a cause,how about cleaning up the pacific’s plastic trash pile? A real threat to our oceans,microscopic plastics.
Fred,
This is exactly why we should be fighting this…not spreading our legs and “accepting” the rape.
Fight it,thats GOOD!!! I think the only vote now is our wallets,dont buy em until the last vestige of vehicular freedom has been shut down.I see that as a good stand.Its something at least.I love my freakin 20 year old Lexus,a lot!!More than any EV.
We see all kinds of BS the mandate will bring,its never good when the politicos/AGW are involved.Its not good.Is it the end of the world,we will see.Ingenuity still might blunt effects of mandate at least as far as travel aspect goes,financial I see rape in several forms,show me anything gov does that isnt a rape financially.Its what they do..
You know my stand on it,we arent changing it,its been decreed.We still have some time left,maybe our lifetimes before forced and walking.You know the grey man is out there too.Maybe the NWO and globalists will fold,I dont see it.They are dug in hard,and the money is flowing.Hard to stop that.
I cant change the TSA,and being physically molested,I dont fly nor does my wife.Thats all I can do to fight it,my wallet,government doesnt ever decrease in size,does it? My vote,as pointless as my voice,only money talks with gov.We dont have enough money to reach gov at all.
Honda announced that its cute and small Urban EV concept will result in a production version…I never saw that coming.Or saw that market as the logical one to exploit in todays world.Wait, I did.Honda is doing it.fred is a clover for seeing it.Its starting people……
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/26/honda-urban-ev-spy-photos/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000021&yptr=yahoo
Fred,
Every car company is making similar announcements. It is not because these things are being clamored for by the market. It is because the government is forcing the car companies to build them, as I have carefully explained numerous times now. There is no no other way to comply with a 50 MPG CAFE mandate that has also morphed into a “carbon dioxide emissions” mandate. And then there are the “zero emissions” mandates, which can be complied with only be manufacturing EVs.
Which then require subsidies – and mandates – and when those aren’t enough, use regs to outlaw or greatly diminish people’s ability to buy non-EVs.
This is exactly what is going on.
You’re a Clover because you impute market demand and “inevitability” to something that is entirely artificial, the evil result of state coercion and wealth redistribution. Something that will reduce personal freedom and impose more costs on most people.
You’re a Clover because you consider this progress.
You’re a Clover because you tout half-truths and outright lies about EVs, even after having been politely corrected with the facts.
They are still coming,YOU are still single .Wonder why? Because only what YOU say is valid.Only what YOU see is valid.Only what YOU can comprehend is valid.Only how YOU want to twist what I say is valid. Only what YOU state is true.The only thought is YOUR thoughts.The only facts are YOUR facts.Judgemental much? And you are single,Im married.
There,I can get personal too.So throw stones.You want to provoke me,fine, you did.Ban away,you got YOUR excuse to validate it.
Fred, simmer down and take your meds. I can almost see the veins bulging on your forehead. It’s not worth getting so worked up. No sense giving yourself a stroke.
Eric can address your invectives if he wants to dignify them with a response, that’s up to him.
As far as marriage is concerned; far too many men have discovered for themselves and will tell you that unless you get very lucky it’s a trap. There’s a reason for the growing MGTOW movement. Not that there’s anything really new about that, back in the day we used to simply refer to such such guys “confirmed bachelors”.
Fred,
I’ve laid out the facts about EV range/recharge/cost; you respond with assertions about “what’s coming” and ignore the facts – or talk up the “inevitability” of EVs, as though that obviated the facts about them.
They aren’t my facts. Just facts.
I’m not sure what the problem is – not just with you, but with so many like you – who seem unable to grok (or are unwilling to concede) the fact that EVs are a make-work project for which their is no natural market. Which is why it has been necessary to force them onto the market via mandates and to prop up “sales” with massive subsidies, which are just wealth transfer, no different fundamentally from welfare.
It’s all such obvious question begging … if EVs are better than non-EVs, then mandates and subsidies wouldn’t be needed. If there were a real need for EVs, they’d be snapped up at market prices over non-EVs by people willing to pay the freight…
Yet it’s not obvious to you – or you’re deliberately refusing to concede the point.
Jebus Fred. I always wondered what an unhinged mental breakdown would look like from the other side of the internet. Thanks for the demonstration.
P.S. If you go back and read your recent posts, do you feel shame? If not, seek psychological help.
I don’t think oil is a finite resource (the peak oil thing) and as such is not damaging to the environment when used to make energy. We live on an incredible planet that is much more robust than we could imagine.
As far as electric cars, how are work vans, and 1 ton pickups towing trailers going to make that work. It’s not.
Check out scientist Thomas Gold (1920-2004) on Wikipedia who tried to prove oil is renewable. Interesting stuff.
BrentP,Onstar,pretty controlling junk right there and now.Its another thing that limits my car choices,cars that phone home.
I don’t know what you’re replying to here. Phone home is bad but Onstar can be defeated by unplugging the antenna.
One of my big gripes,GM NOT deploying their technology.Early 2000’s i went to an auto show and they were showing off their hybrid big pickup truck system.Have they deployed that yet? IDK,but if GM would release their damn tech I cant imagine what we will see.Whats on the shelf now??
Hi Fred,
They didn’t “deploy” it because it wouldn’t have sold – too expensive – and no mandates to force people to buy it, or subsidize them to buy it.
Speaking of GM, I note with great interest that the French fuel riots (BTW the French have strict gun control, too…) are happening at the same time GM announced it will close five plants and lay off 14,000 workers.
They’re eliminating the very efficient Cruze, and ultimately, like Ford, all sedans… the stated reason for the layoff given by CEO Mary Barra is that they’re going to “focus on EVs, autonomous vehicles and ride sharing.” Hmmm… why would they want to produce EVs when Cruzes and Volts can hardly be given away, but full-sized trucks are selling like hotcakes — even for stupid money like $50,000 and up???
Seems like GM knows something we don’t — namely, that we’re going to be forced into the choice of either riding in a little government-controlled/AI electric shitboxes, or walking. Even if there’s tens of millions of people out there stupid enough to finance a fifty grand truck that they make obscene profits on.
X, Either they know already, or will negotiate with uncle over the issue.
‘ohhh, so you want us to keep the plants open? then we need this and this”
So now it’s turned around that a failing mega-corporation will be forcing regulation. wow.
I think you make too much of this agenda to limit mobility. There is a much simpler explanation. These people believe there is a crisis and only government can fix it. They are busy bodies. They look for problems, real or perceived and then use their power, which they crave, to “fix” it. It never fixes anything because there was never a problem. They can also never admit they are wrong, ever. To admit that past government was wrong is to admit that it is fallible. To them it is not. It’s not a world wide conspiracy. It is power. They never want to give power to anyone besides themselves.
Check out the UN’s “2030 agenda for a sustainable world” – the goal is to crowd people into small city apartments, limiting them to public transportation. Countryside presumably will be reserved for high Party officials with travel permits only.
BRAHAHAHAHAA! Peak oil.Yesterdays climate change nonsense.As for Agenda 21,it is.The ‘people’ pushing it publicly are just the ‘useful idiots’ They know not what they are doing as propagandized puppets.
Chris,your take on EV’s and range is based on today and past range experiences.Thats changing FAST going forward.We are only at the barest beginnings on what they will do with range.Newest Hyundai is 150 miles and less than $30,000 before rebates.Dealers getting a 4000 PREMIUM over MSRP selling them,demand outstripping supply.Thats quite a revolution and evolution.
Porsche is talking 620 mile range,4 minute 60 mile and 20 minute 250 mile charges on their next gen cars.And its only getting started.
As for what to power them with? Thats going to be fascinating to see how that evolves.
Oops,my bad on Hyuandai Kona Electric,250 mile range.
Oh,oh! About power.1 nephew works for SCE.He did a project where he was designing new power line structures for the big wires.Also did how to deliver them with helicopters and install them.These are for new lines coming from Hoover Dam.He didnt know if they were also lines for feeding in new power sources last he talked about it.i will quiz him when we meet again.
Sounds like electrical infrastructure build up doesnt it?
Hi Fred,
“250 mile range”… best case, assuming optimal conditions. Not in the cold. Not running on the highway. Not uring accessories. It really makes my teeth ache to constantly have to fill in the (deliberately left blank) blanks.
As opposed to the 50 mile ranges we just had? ‘Estimated’ or not,range IS increasing,thats FACT.And its increasing by a LOT.
AND its only getting started.Eric,what i just said there is all true.
Like it or hate it,the freight train is barreling along.I think its beyond stopping it now.
FRed,
Yes, it’s increasing. It’s still nowhere near what any Corolla or Civic can deliver – for literally half the cost. And a fraction of the time to refuel. Not impaired by weather.
The only reason there is a “freight train” is because of the freight train of mandates and subsidies. Take them away and the train stops.
In the Soviet Union, Stalin would decree things like the Volga Canal be built – at any cost and regardless of the need (as expressed by the free market, which had been destroyed).
You are embracing the same thing on four wheels. Why?
EVs are a step backward. It is not progress to make cars more expensive, more limited – and more expensive… or am I missing something?
Eric,I embrace nothing.Im a stark realist.It matters not why the train is coming,its coming,PERIOD.I cant stop it,you cant stop it.The golden rule in play…he who has the gold rules.thats isnt you or me.To say we will have crap ass 2015 electrics going forward is poor forward vision IMO.
At least there is enough free market for the auto makers that they ARE going to compete to survive,and nobody is standing still on this paradigm shift that been mandated.Stand still,you are toast.
Fred,
If a woman is about to be raped, should she just accept it? Or try to rip the guy’s balls off?
You’ve fallen for the PR. I’ve been covering this issue for damned near 25 years. All that’s changed is the mandates and the subsidies. EVs are still economically absurd and functionally gimped and unless everyone gets a huge check from Uncle, the average person isn’t going to willingly buy a $30,000-plus EV that is inferior as a car to a $15,000 Corolla… unless it’s at gunpoint.
We should all be fighting this, not spreading our legs wider.
All i know is what I see.I wont deny my eyes.Is it good? Beats me.I’ll judge as it plays out,much as i do for the gov which I cant change.Is it real,sure is.What are you doing to fight it?Rail on in your blog? Write your master in gov? Thats OK,wont change a thing until the globalists fold their cards.You see that happening?Me neither.
In the meantime,real me see’s whats real and accepts he cant change it.At least I never have managed before on any issue of this magnitude,ever.Short of stopping the VN War.I did do that,with millions of others.
Fred, what good is a viable and independent electric car to the powers that be?
I am not saying one might not come about, I am asking what good is it to government and corporations and of our “betters”?
Such a thing would undermine their power and as such it would not be pushed for. If it accidentally happened we’re going to see something more sudden than a Rockford turn.
If there’s an electric car of good range and little or no refueling time that doesn’t require reporting to big brother then I’m all for it. I just don’t see that in the plans.
A zero point electric car or one I can charge with my own solar array or magic box or whathaveyou, sign me up.
Smart meters, electric power from the grid, and more. Looks like big brother wants to keep tabs on people to me. Hard to keep specific people from buying gasoline. Shut them off from chargers? No problem, a few keystrokes. Perfect for a permission mother may I future.
Brent,very good points,all relevant.Pretty much fits current ICE too though,regarding available fuel and tracking.EV is just ‘better’ at that for sure!I can see there is little point when agenda 21 finally lands.
Sheesh,is the answer horse and buggy? They went thru the same paradigm shift.Only change is even faster now.Time for us to fade away like old soldiers? Kids already think Im ancient fossil without a smart phone or facebook.I see me as on a budget,debt free and valuing privacy.
It is being applied to ICE cars but its more difficult and expensive. To stay non-obvious also allows it to be subverted. Nothing short ANPR everywhere including fuel stations will do what a few keystrokes can do with an electric.
For EVs by the time people notice the net and accept it is happening it will be too late.
The game is to get as much from the human herd as possible for the lowest cost possible.
Fred,
You keep thumping the EV tub with projections … not facts. I’ve pointed these out to you now, several times. It becomes . . . tiring.
It does.I point out todays facts,and you always poo poo what is.Yes,these are estimated ranges.I get it.They are also huge increases in range,and you deny it.Prices are also falling.Thats also factual.
These things are coming.Thats happening now.I know you hate them and IMO its showing your bias that you cant see it.Which is fine.Lets see where this is in 5 years,and 10.My view is going to be a lot closer than your view.The great Globalist OZ has spoken and he wont be denied,no matter what we want.
AND they are going to improve and evolve.All electronics do,and thats what we are talking about when its all said and done.
Fred,
“Estimates” are not facts. Projections are not actuality. Do you understand the difference?
EV range has increased . . . to something like two-thirds the range of the thirstiest muscle car or SUV, if you drive the muscle car or SUV full tilt… and the muscle car or SUV can be back on the road in 5 minutes.
It is nowhere close to that of high-efficiency IC cars (A Jetta TDI could go 700 miles on a tank) and the recharge issues remain and won’t be solved absent a fundamentally new technology (battery chemistry is the limiting factor). And the cost is still preposterous… a $30k (subsidized) Leaf that is inferior to a $13k Versa as transportation.
My bias is against Oz – not the EV per se.
You seem positively aroused by Oz and his coercive machinations.
I accept its happening.You dont.I see clearly what is around me.I see clearly that the things DO work,RIGHT NOW, in markets that include millions.You dont.
I see agenda 21 is happening.I see the mark of the beast is happening.I see the police state is happening.Its all real.Its all increasing.So are EV’s.And yes,Id rather have an EV as opposed to walking or the bus if thats the choices we have.
The ‘range’ has quadrupled.I dont car if its freeway,local or on the moon.It has quadrupled.That a big change.it is a big change.I’ll say it a 3rd time,its a big change.Like it,love it or hate it,its a big change.
No matter what you will scream COLD WEATHER.I can see youve found where to plant your goalposts,worse case scenarios,and nothing will ever change no matter what the range,thats your ‘safety zone’ IMO on this subject.If it wasnt that it would be the vroom vroom sound or something else.You will never accept its happening.But that matters not,you wont change it.Its Global.
Lets see real world numbers on em.Not manufacturer claims,real world.Whatever it is,it will never be enough for you.
So i ask,If/when ICE is legislated off,what will you do?HOPEFULLY we will both be dead by then.
Legislate them off,I will drive EV,IF I can still drive at all.Those senior buses dont appeal to me at all.
And it WILL be a much better EV than the crap weve seen.Realist.Look at the past and present,its pretty easy to see the future if your mind is open.
Fred,
Would you also “accept” the Killing Fields? Difference of degree only. EVs are being forced on us…italicized to make the point. Force.
Organized, officialized thuggery.
You keep ALL CAPS asserting (as if ALL CAPS made assertions valid) that EVs “work.” I point out the fact that they only “work” because of all the mandates and subsidies. Because they are being forced on us.
But they do not “work” economically or practically – and cannot stand on their merits. They would virtually cease to exist tomorrow if the mandates and subsidies – the force – disappeared.
And yes, weather does matter for those of us who have to deal with 4-5 months of freezing cold weather each year. Just as cost matters. And having to wait 5-6 times as long to put a partial charge into an EV….
I’m not going over the same turf over and over and over…
Clover,thats real cute.When you disagree its ridicule?Whatever,they are STILL coming Don Quixote.Just as the horse and buggy went away.
I keep forgeting your a one car family and drive the Trans am in the snow and cold.Oh,you dont,I see….But an EV you are suddenly a one car family using the lowest EV standards you can find? Ummm…OK.
BTW,windmills and solar cells will NEVER work either,forget their endlessly increasing presence.
But but…its Subsidies!!All energy is subsidized,real world fact too.Toss me another clover.I disagree with you.
Would you prefer an echo chamber instead?Apparently so.
Fred
You don’t read very well. You sure don’t comprehend much either.
1/. EV cars have not had their range quadrupled of late. That statement of yours is puerile bullshit. I have had three of the EV cars. I got real experience in real cars running them in real conditions. You most obviously do not have any real experience whatsoever. Your claims are just not right.
With you it’s all just bullshit swilling around in your wee mind. A tip; it is far preferable to stick with the real world rather than the childish fairy-tales you mindlessly recite.
Facts, son, facts. And they come from real experience, not from the bullshit propaganda you have allowed to infect your wee imagination.
2/. EV cars are inferior to regular ICE cars. That is an undeniable fact. I can always easily locate a superior ICE vehicle to anything EV – even in terms of silence and refinement. For example, I have a car built in 1975 (guess the make) sitting in one of the lock-ups right now which is far more refined than anything built by Tesla et al. Ditto for other metrics such as range, economics, acceleration, top speed, handling, ride, luxury, repairability, life-cycle cost, road holding, practicality, utility etc etc etc etc etc.
The only solid argument in favour of an EV is the novelty value (or “weirdness”, although you can get a far more interesting experience from an old Citroen ID or DS- anyway I digress).
3/. Eric makes some fundamental points that you idiotically pretend do not matter. Well, little fool, they do matter. They are important and fundamental.
EVs do not make sense and very few people would buy them in the absence of government mandates, coercion, force and theft. They definitely do not represent a step forwards. If they did, then NONE of the mandates, orders, subsidies, threats, coercion etc would be required. People would not need to be “nudged” (that is, forced) into them. Manufacturers would not need to be threatened with loss of their business and indeed their very existence either.
A civilised society, one in which you do not live and likely have not enjoyed any experience of, does not need a government to order everyone about on how to live. Nor does it need a government to coerce their choices. Nor threaten or force or violate.
4/. If you personally like the idea of an EV, go buy one and run it. Just stop supporting the imposition of coercive threat and violence upon other people and their choices. Leave them the hell alone. Stop supporting their persecution.
Until you start living in that way, you earn nothing but contempt.
Hey Fred, I live where the temperature gets below 0 degrees in the winter and no way in hell want an EV. How many electrons will the toxic batteries need to feed the induction coils to heat my vehicle, and what will that do to the range? Do they sell 5 gallon containers that I can fill with electrons from the EV charging stations that I can store in my garage to fill my batteries during a power out emergency?
You Fred, sound like a government Toadie that has skin in the EV game.
I think Fred is suffering from pathological Stockholm Syndrome.
Agenda 21 & 2030 and the funding for the useful idiots comes from the big foundations. Which are controlled by the same people who control the elected office holders more or less.
Exactly. They even have control over entire cities. The Aspen Institute has been running New Orleans ever since Hurricane Katrina. These organizations made sure every city affected by Hurricane Katrina adopted Smart Growth and other Agenda 21 initiatives. Can’t let a good crisis go to waste.
Fred, the reason I mentioned farmers is because it means they’ll be driving a pickup truck minimum. Probably 3/4 to 1 ton size.
But I could also add in contractors that have 5-30 trucks in their fleet.
No way E-trucks will work for these guys. Too much weight, and they tow too.
And why I mentioned exemptions.
Then if these users get exemptions, there’s going to be a lot of us trying to get the exemptions as well.
‘You can, but you can’t. Why? Because we said so.’
Again, it won’t be ending well if this E crap is forced down our throats.
Hi Chris,
I’m not sure what Fred’s game is… he admits that the mandates and subsidies are morally reprehensible yet seems enthused about government-mandated EVs.
Soft-pedals their many deficits. Moons over their “inevitability.”
Maybe Elon sent him a check?
No Eric.Im real.I prefer ICE,but I wont deny that EV is real,and what the hell,they might work.They do so now for many.
Should I lie and say they dont?? I wont do that,I call a spade a spade,even when it doesnt fit my agenda.Dont want to hear the other side,I DO.Ears open,eyes wide,thats me.
Is it MY choice,NO! I love my ICE. I am REAL,100%.
Much like free speech,I might not like what you say,i respect your right to say it.Libertarian as far as i can in the REAL world.
Not fair on Elon.Tesla is a joke.I think he should be in prison,in the past he would be.Dont equate me with him,thats very insulting.May as well just call me a fucking shithead,its that insulting in my book.
VW,Nissan,Hyundai,GM,they are no joke.Real deal there.they arent playing dead on EV’s,they are all in.Its serious.Face it.I didnt make that up.Its pure reality,period.
Im not putting my head in the sand.i believe my own lying eyes.
Fred,
The problem (crikey!) is that they don’t work! Which is why they have to be forced down our throats! How many times, oh Lord?
Eric.I drove to the ‘big city’.I met all my needs in 20 freakin miles there.In an entire DAY,20 freakin miles! 6 stores and dinner out.
That would work via EV,for millions of people.Right now in the metro.They have that big of a potential market.Right now.
Those folks didnt exist?????
Another nephew.UPS over road driver.Drives 20 miles to terminal.Plug in car.Drives truck el Paso and back.Drives 20 miles home.
Back in his version of the metro can do ALL his shopping easily in 20 miles.
That wont work? That wont work for tons of people there?There are a couple million peeps there.
These arent ghosts,they are real people.
35 mile range,works for his school teacher wife too.that would meet 95% of there needs.ASSuming they had a long range vehicle for NOW.oh wait,they do.
Fred,
What about the millions of people that live in high rise apartments, or just apartments? Where are they going to plug in to charge?
IDK.I have no clue how they will put out the infrastructure.I do think its going to be a many year rollout,decades?IDK.The investment has to be unimaginably huge?My guess is it will be a very longterm changeover for sure,my ‘guess’ only.You have any thoughts on how it might be done?
Fred said something stupid like….”I drove to the ‘big city’.I met all my needs…”
Therefore all other concerns held by others are irrelevant…..?
Never mind those who have to drive 60 miles in -20c weather (3 months a year) to get to a town…?
I run into these self absorbed, self referential, ignorant yet arrogant idiots daily. Just a guess but it looks like 90% or so of the population falls in this category now. Smartphones and dumb people.
Fred, provide proof for your assertions. Show us you actually have FACTS as you so like to spew.
Frog,
“Smartphones and dumb people.”
I’m beginning to think those smartphones MAKE the dumb people.
Fred,
You’re either a troll or a dupe.
Either way, when GovCo tells you to get on the train, just do it. They’ll give you a nice ride out into the countryside at which point you’ll get to take a community shower…
Hi Mark,
An interesting thing about Fred… I’ve noticed a common denominator, his posts and the other Teslian/EV Fanboi posts… it is the repetitive assertions of IT IS COMING and similar. I’ve had some experience in public relations/copywriting. When you see a certain line verbatim repeated in a context such as this, it is not an unsound bet to lay odds it’s scripted – and paid for.
Eric,
Fred is the buying public.
Hi T,
I don’t think so. He may represent – or be one of – the affluent snowflakes living on the West and East coasts. This can be safely assumed given his admission that he owns a Lexus LS – a top-of-the-line luxury car that costs about $70k to start. But people such as Fred are a small minority of the buying public. Most people cannot afford a $40,000 EV, leaving aside the other problems.
The (((nation destroyers))) are saying the same thing about illegal aliens, implying that we can do nothing to stop them.
And remember the number of the peg you hang your clothes on.
In the desired future these farmers won’t exist. There will be corporate farms and that is all.
WRT farming exemptions that’s how we ended up with the SUVs. Farmer/tradesman exemption in CAFE. Government is unlikely to make that error again.
It can’t be said too often, EVs are still too expensive and too limited. They will be that way for quite some time. Fast charging any current type of battery severely limits its lifespan. It’s a long road from “miracle battery” concept in the laboratory to commercial viability in the marketplace. How many people are going to be able afford a 600-mile-range electric Porsche? How long before people in the used market can pick up a fully-functional electric vehicle for a few grand?
Eric said it best:
“EVs are still economically absurd and functionally gimped and unless
everyone gets a huge check from Uncle, the average person isn’t going to
willingly buy a $30,000-plus EV that is inferior as a car to a $15,000
Corolla unless it’s at gunpoint.”
You want 600 mile range? Get a Nash 600.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_600
Hi Todd,
I used to think the same way as you do. But after years of examining this from many angles, I have come to the conclusion that it is purposeful and designed to do as I’ve described. The arguments you present are entirely reasonable, and also entirely obvious. Therefore, they cannot be the reason. There’s too much organized effort behind all of this…
There’s too much organized effort behind all of this…/Of course there is.im betting its the bankers calling all the shots.I recently saw a fossilized IIRC Rockefeller say “Everything is wrong now,we had it all under control since WWII” Some anti orange man blather article.Point being,he ADMITTED they controlled it all.Thats the real power,the real money,and it does the talking.
Another side point.Warren Christopher used to be the mouthpiece for the Controllers.When he spoke,Presidents shivered.Then he died,we got Henry Kissinger.He gives all the presidents their walking orders,they all pay deference to him,including the orange. Who will be next mouthpiece,Im betting Kerry.Kissinger is a dead guy in a wheel chair one step away from Weekend at Bernie’s.
This is not going to end well. I visit rural USA a lot, and it is very common to have to go 100-200 miles to do anything. Should be fun to see a local farmer having to plug in for 3-4 hours before he can drive home.
Sure, there will be ‘exemptions’ for business trucks, etc… And then it will get ugly.
Well Eric, how are they going to power those EVs?
BBC says>>France is heavily dependent on nuclear power, which Mr Macron pledged to reduce to 50% of the national energy mix by 2035 by closing 14 of the country’s 58 reactors. None, however, will be closed before 2022 with the exception of Fessenheim on the German border.
That is on top of the closure of all four of France’s remaining coal-fired power plants<<
And back in Poletown, where they sent in a SWAT team to remove little old ladies from church, Generous Mother says she had a good run. Posthumously thanking Hizhonor Coleman Young for the thousands of homes and businesses he so graciously provided.
Oil (hydrocarbon products) are abiotic in nature and are constantly being created by yet unknown processes, deep within the earth. Russian (and other) oil interests are drilling oil wells miles into the earth, well below the depths of “decayed fossil plant and animal material” and are coming up with oil. In fact, many of our old, depleted oil wells are “filling back up”, oil IS migrating from the depths.
The term “fossil fuel” came into being in the 1950s, when little was known about the dynamics and origin of hydrocarbon products.
The “peak oil” proponents and others who HATE hydrocarbons being a “renewable resource” are livid over the concept that oil is constantly being created deep within the earth.
Observations by scientists of other celestial bodies note that some of them are showing evidence of massive hydrocarbon deposits.
So “oil is being created”? How is that possible? Is there carbon and hydrogen deep within the Earth?
No, oil was created after the Earth was formed and seeped down through the fissures.
It was not formed from dead dinosaurs or plants.
Bankruptcy or Nationalization for the US brands. You can force only so many people to buy EV/Autonomous and brother it aint the majority of car owners. (even the stupid joe six packs will probably balk it them when he goes to trade in his 3 yr old truck he just paid off and devalued)
Why force them?Make ICE illegal and you take the bus or walk.Which do YOU choose?
You just used Force and Make in two consecutive sentences.
No,you dont have to buy,not FORCED,unlike obummercare. They are ‘giving’ you a choice.MAKE ICE illegal? They can and may.Cash for clunkers,2.0. You arent force to go EV,you just wont drive.Much like I wont fly and bow to the brownshirts.
You can walk,take bus or drive an EV.Pretty piss poor choice,much like our elections actually.
What WILL you do if agenda 21 comes in? You are done traveling in full? Or will you sit in your ICE car and be a crazy old man going Vroom Vroom,screach!!!! Im not going crazy old man route,and Im not going recluse in a utopian prison cell.I prefer to drive.That leaves EV.
Little Fred
Yes, forced. Forced exactly as with obummercare.
Were you consistent with your arguments you’d have to state that American people are not forced to buy a ‘bum medical plan. The American people are being “given” a choice not to. Meanwhile we both know that the reality is they are being forced (the powers that be like to call it a “nudge” to “choose” what has been predetermined as the correct choice). It is a non-deal in that one party is forcibly coerced to undertake an action which they would otherwise avoid.
This obummer medical affair is an example of the same type of non-deal as an ICE banning. Similarly, the same type of non-deal is what all these EV mandates, subsidies and the like entail.
You need to stop supporting the coercion of other people.
BTW if Agenda 21 does come to pass, you are likely one of those who is done travelling (that is, you, personally, will exceeding rarely be granted the permission to travel more than a few kilometres from your hostel). Think about it. You are just not important enough to the powers that rule over you to allow a free choice of movement. Forget about driving an EV. You won’t be able afford it (you likely can’t now anyway). And not so long after that you’ll need permits (that is, permissions). Those you will not easily be able to obtain. You just are not important enough.
Still, being consistent, you’ll need to admit that you still do have a “choice”. You can choose to apply for permissions or not, as the case may be. Now here is the rub, are you going to be a crazy old man complaining about how you once were free to travel? ‘Cause YOU aint going to be doing any driving.
Good morning, Siotu!
Thanks for the back-up on Fred… my tank was running a bit low!
You make a hell of a lot of assertions regarding my personal life,amazing what you ‘know’,or dont.Whatever,I SEE whats around me.Like those stupid ass statements on my travel habits.When you are reduced to personal attacks you show the weakness in your hand.Ad hominem,very sad.
Stick to the topic.Fair enough on the coercion aspect,I respect it.My travel habits,get a life.
Hi Fred,
Whether I “have a life” is immaterial as regards the debate over the merits of the EV.
I’ve gotta wonder: what will be done with the money collected via this new tax?
Will it be used to improve infrastructure for reducing climate change/mitigating it’s impacts; e.g., wind generation and flood control projects?
Or will it be used to subsidize electric cars and charging stations, as well as up electric grid capacity?
Or will it go to perks, freebies, and graft for the Uncles?
Or
Cycled back to corporations via corporate socialism, solar or EV charging station contractors or to the general graft fund.
The money will be sent to the turd world…with a finder’s fee collected along the way.