Have you ever run an electric space heater in a room with no other source of heat – when the air temperature is say minus 10 (or lower) as it is right now in many states? You stay warm, sort of – but you can almost see the dollars burning in the red hot glow of the coils.
The good news is the space heater doesn’t have to move the room down the road at 60 MPH, too.
It’s also connected to the grid – not a battery. So while it costs a fortune to run, at least you won’t run out – of heat, that is.
Range, on the other hand . . .
How long would the space heater continue to provide heat if it were connected to a battery?
And also had to keep the room moving down the road at 60 MPH?
Electric heaters cost a lot to run – in energy and so dollars. Anyone who has ever run one for any length of time knows this, or comes to know it – after receiving that month’s electric bill.
It is no different in an electric car, which is heated electrically – except that the heater draws power from a battery rather than a grid.
Your mileage – your range – begins to vary.
It would be interesting to know exactly the effect on EV range of keeping the interior of an EV warm – not survivable, but comfortably warm – on a minus 10 degree day. How much range does one lose? How much time will one have to spend shivering at an outdoor recharger – assuming it’s not blocked by the snow and assuming your EV has a built-in system to keep the battery warm, so that it can be charged.
Bet you didn’t know about that, either.
Electric car batteries can’t be recharged if the ambient air temperature is below freezing – it’s a function of battery chemistry – which means that the EV must also heat its battery during the winter months, which will cost energy (battery drain) and further reduce the range.
The EV’s defroster uses heat, too – obviously.
But also the AC, not so obviously. Many people don’t know that, either. The AC doesn’t just cool the car’s interior in the summertime; it also dehumidifies the air, without which the defroster doesn’t work very well.
In which case, you can’t see very well.
So, another drain on the battery; a big one. AC compressors are energy hogs. It takes a lot to power one, whether mechanically (as in a non-EV) or electrically (as in an EV). The difference is that the non-EV can just fill up when the tank runs low – no matter how cold it is outside. But the EV’s got the double-pronged problem of reduced range – because of the power draw of accessories such as heat and AC, as well as lights and everything else that is electrically powered, which is everything in an EV – and having to find a place to recharge in time.
When it is minus 10 degrees outside, waiting can be more than merely inconvenient. It could be fatal. A discharged EV is a cold EV. No heat, until the battery recharges. Imagine sitting in a dark – and very cold – EV for the 30-45 minutes it takes to recover a partial charge at a “fast” charger . . . assuming one’s available.
This is a real danger – yet it’s not being talked about, much less under regulatory scrutiny by the government bureaucrats and pols who are so very concerned about our “safety”… when that excuse is a convenient pretext for mulcting us or abusing our once-upon-time liberties. Save more when you have these.
But when our physical safety runs counter to some broader agenda – as here – then we see how much the pols and bureaucrats actually care about our “safety.” (Other examples include the force-feeding of air bags, including ones known to be defective, and run-amok – or just run-stupid – automated cars).
EVs are being sold as if they were just like other cars – but they aren’t. EVs have functional characteristics – and deficits – that are unique to them but which are largely unknown to the general public because they’re purposely not being told about them.
Imagine the alarums which would erupt if any non-EV car had the potential to leave its owner freezing to death if they used a necessary accessory such as heat on a minus 10 degree day.
Or which needed to be heated in order to be “refueled.”
There is a reason why EVs are sold almost entirely in warm states such as California and Arizona – where there is little to no risk of freezing to death – and being stranded is just an inconvenience rather than physically dangerous.
Unless, of course, you run out of juice in Compton.
Jokes aside, it’s serious thing – and not being reported by the mainstream car press or warned about by “consumer” press.
Arguably, because the EV thing – like the “climate change” thing – has become a matter of faith and not to be questioned.
But with half the country experiencing record-breaking cold, it might be worth thinking about… .
. . .
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You pray for that instant on heat in a cold Chicago car in a minus 5 degree morning. Moved away from that. However space heaters in the home often trip circuit breakers with the amount of power they use, Using that on battery is beyond stupid. Wonder how the evacuating Fort Meyers folks faired in theur EV’s, Har har
We’ll find out how many people still want them when they can’t get a tax credit to reduce the cost of the car.
I bought my EV knowing its limitations, so I bought one with an EPA rated range that’s double my commute. It’s the perfect commuter car, no oil changes and I spend $40/month on electricity. Before buying this car I was spending $250/month on gasoline, plus oil changes. I live in an area with a relatively mild climate, it’s certainly no California but we rarely get into the negatives. My range absolutely drops in the winter, but plenty of people with internal combustion engine vehicles have trouble just starting their cars in the winter. I’ve never had any problems with that, the only time I would have a chance of my EV not starting due to weather would be in temps below -30° F when lithium ion batteries begin to freeze. Even then, the car would heat the battery so it wouldn’t start, and I don’t experience temperatures even close to that low in my area. They’re great commuter cars for most people in some areas.
However, I would like to see some changes. I don’t think the government should be subsidizing the sale of these vehicles, and I do think that states should charge extra road use tax to these cars since we aren’t paying for gasoline. My state charges an extra tax on the vehicle registration annually. I also didn’t buy the car for the environment, I bought it purely to benefit myself. It would be dumb to buy any brand new car to try and help the environment, it’d be more helpful to buy a 1999 Saturn. All of that being said, the oil industry also has subsidies that I’d like to see stopped.
“but plenty of people with internal combustion engine vehicles have trouble just starting their cars in the winter.”
Odd. The old 1985 6.9 diesel and my 1974 Case diesel tractor both start fine in -35c weather. And these are vehicles that sit in a field all year until needed for snow clearing. They usually have to be dug out to get to them before starting. My gas vehicles have never had a cold start issue in these conditions.
No EV is operating in these conditions.
If it works for your needs, great. Just remember, some of us have different needs and situations. Ones that no EV can fill.
Hi Mmmm,
Thank you for the reasonable defense of EVs! You’re new, so I’ll repeat: I am not opposed to EVs and believe that for some people they may make sense and even if not, it isn’t my business… provided I’m not being mulcted to “help” pay for it!
You clearly have no actual data to support this completely incorrect theory. As an electric vehicle owner and a member of several EV owner social groups, YOU CAN CHARGE AND DRIVE in the cold. Even below freezing. Batteries will have reduced range but certainly not enough to impact purchase, batteries obtain and hold more range in warmer temperatures.
Want a car without any maintenance costs? No oil, transmission fluid, no spark plugs, NO GAS? Get you head out of the fumes and check FACTS.
Clover,
Yes, you can charge in the cold.. provided the car has a battery heater… which draws power from the battery, which reduces range. And you still have to wait… at least 5-6 times as long as it takes an IC car to refuel. Sounds fun. You must have lots of time on your hands. Not mind planning your day around finding a place to plug in and then… waiting.
Do I want “… a car without any maintenance costs? No oil, transmission fluid, no spark plugs, NO GAS”?
Not if it costs twice as much as an IC car – and suffers from functional gimps such as abbreviated range and preposterously long recharge times vs. the minutes it takes to refuel an IC car. Your “savings” on gas and maintenance are spent – and then some – on the car itself.
Why would anyone want such a car? And why should anyone be forced to subsidize the purchase of such cars for affluent virtue signalers?
Sigh. How many times must I repeat all of the above?
My teeth begin to ache…
Just make an ‘EP EV primer for the simple’.
You could go through all the standard ‘facts & benefits’ claims the EV folks make with a rebuttal for each and have a page for them. Then you could just say ‘See rebuttal 1 & 2’ with a link.
I’ll start.
1. EVs are emission free.
– No. They do not emit locally. The materials to build the car are emissions intensive. The electricity used is still from a coal/oil/gas/nuke grid for the most part. Overall lifetime (build and use) EV CO2 emissions have been found to be greater than ICE vehicles.
2. Maintenance costs are lower.
– But initial purchase price is much higher, offsetting any benefits. Also, oil and filters will seem cheap compared to a battery replacement.
and so on….
Cold same some keyboard wear.
Make that ‘could save some….’
1) The extra CO2 emissions incurred in the production of the EV is wiped out within the first year or so of operation of the vehicle as compared to an equivalent ICE vehicle. Over the lifetime of the vehicle, the EV has much lower emissions than the comparable EV. Even in an area where coal is the dominant form of electricity generation.
2) The battery packs have a 8-year/100K mile warranty on them. In 8 years, price of a new battery pack will have dropped siginificantly. For some vehicles, a new pack is already cheaper than a new or rebuilt transmission for a traditional ICE vehicle. When the Prius first came out people were saying that the battery pack would have to be replaced within 5 years and cost over $5K. Turns out they last between 10 and 15 years and go over 200K miles (double the federal warranty period) and can be had for less than $3K. Again, cheaper than a transmission rebuild. There’s a decent after-market business that sprung up taking Prius battery packs from crashed Prii and selling them for $1K or less.
1) Irrelevant. CO2 is not a pollutant.
2) 8, 10, even 15 years is nothing. I drive a car that is over 40 years old. It has never required major drivetrain service. Not to mention the heavy up-front cost penalty for going electric. There is also no moral case to be made for government giving such vehicles and their owners special consideration.
CO2 is a recognized pollutant. Has been for nearly a decade.
That’s awesome that you have been able to keep a car running for 40 years. But not everyone is as lucky as you are. Sometimes people have to replace their vehicle because repairs are too expensive, car is totalled in a crash, no longer fits their needs. Average age of a vehicle in the US is 11 years. Which means that people are not keeping their vehicles for 40 years. And in 40 years, cars have improved a lot in terms of safety, efficiency, and features. I loved growing up in the 70s. Doesn’t mean I want to be stuck driving something from that era.
No, CO2 is NOT a recognized pollutant. In fact it is required for plant growth. The hysterical claims about it, as well as the claims regarding “settled science” and “scientific consensus” are manufactured and fraudulent.
It is not at all unusual for the drivetrain in ICE cars to last decades without requiring major servicing. (There may not be very many people daily driving cars over 40 years old, but I know plenty in the 20-25 year range.)
I prefer to drive something simple in design and easy to work on and am not really concerned with what you want. Drive what you want. What I object to are the people that want to use armed thugs (government) to push people into electric cars, which are otherwise not being demanded by buyers in the marketplace.
The US Supreme Court and EPA disagree with you:
Clearly this is a very broad definition. More importantly, its Title 42, Section 7408 states that the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator must publish a list of certain air pollutants:
“emissions of which, in his judgment, cause or contribute to air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare”
In Massachusetts v. Environmental Protection Agency (in 2007), the US Supreme Court held that the Clean Air Act gives the EPA the authority to regulate tailpipe emissions of greenhouse gases. Two years after the Supreme Court ruling, in 2009 the EPA issued an endangerment finding concluding that
“greenhouse gases in the atmosphere may reasonably be anticipated both to endanger public health and to endanger public welfare….The major assessments by the U.S. Global Climate Research Program (USGCRP), the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and the National Research Council (NRC) serve as the primary scientific basis supporting the Administrator’s endangerment finding.”
Greenhouse gases including CO2 unquestionably fit the Clean Air Act’s broad definition of “air pollutants,” and must be listed and regulated by the EPA if it can be determined that they endanger public heath and/or welfare.
Alternatively, the definition of “pollution” from Encyclopedia Brittanica is:
“the addition of any substance (solid, liquid, or gas) or any form of energy (such as heat, sound, or radioactivity) to the environment at a rate faster than it can be dispersed, diluted, decomposed, recycled, or stored in some harmless form.”
Thus legally in the USA, CO2 is an air pollutant which must be regulated if it may endanger public health or welfare. And according to the encyclopedic definition, CO2 is a pollutant unless our emissions can be stored “harmlessly.”
From https://skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm
Nobody is forcing you to drive an EV.
The EPA also lied about DDT, and made a trumped-up case based on junk science. Third world countries which did not have the resources to do their own research took the EPA at its world and millions died agonizing deaths from malaria as a result. The EPA have done the same with CO2. I see absolutely no reason to give them or the Supreme Court any credibility in the matter.
“Climate change” is about money and power. Even many of the people pushing it have admitted it has nothing to do with the environment, but rather doing away with free enterprise and taking control of distribution of the world’s resources.
No one is forcing people into electric cars YET but gov’t through the use of selective tax breaks and subsidies is attempting to “nudge” people in that direction. If the wrong people get into power we can expect that “nudge” to turn into a forceful “push.”
The “hole in the ozone” scare was the litmus test on how much bullshit the public would fall for, thus paving the way for “global warming” alarmism and subsequent govt control of everything within reach. THAT was the brainchild of DuPont, done in order to protect revenue linked to it’s expiring patent on R-12.
And now the SAME lie is being used regarding R-134a, what a coincidence!
Fortunately I stocked up on R-12 while it was still cheap and easy to get. I use it as I see fit without regard to gunvermin “regulations.”
Funny, isn’t it, that whenever DuPont’s patent runs out on a refrigerant the EPA finds something Terribly Wrong with it and forces a transition to something new and more expensive.
“Thus legally in the USA, CO2 is an air pollutant”
Ah. The ‘Government says so’ argument.
Politics does not equal science.
Carry on.
If the EPA and Supreme Court decided that Dihydrogen Monoxide was a pollutant this guy would probably be out front supporting the idea.
Jason, he is the same duplicitous moron that calls all Chemicals “toxic”.
I’m with you on these dipshits just offing themselves, I only wish they would quit trying so desperately to take us down with them! The religious practice of Papal Indulgences has just been transformed into carbon credits and virtue signalling, the cultists and their pious followers are still the same.
Man, that DiHydrogen Monoxide shit is dangerous. Did you know when it is superheated it can cause deadly burns? That it’s a principal component of acid-rain? It’s been shown that it’s a leading cause of corrosion of metals, including rust! I even heard that it’s a major cause of erosion of the landscape.
Nasty shit, definitely should be banned.
Hi Dev,
Yes – and that’s just the point. It is easy to create a phantom menace out of just about anything. Including C02.
I fell into a deep pool of it and damned near died. It was so cold I couldn’t stop the muscle spasms. It was a miracle a friend grabbed my hand and pulled me out.
It was so cold it made the boat trailer so slick we thought we wouldn’t be able to take the boat. I don’t know how those fish tolerate it.
Nobody is forcing you to breathe and expel CO2, either. Why don’t you hold your breath indefinitely, so the rest of us don’t have to be strangled to death by govt bullshit and corporate cronyism? You sound like any of a thousand mindless govt drones marching to and from the hive, your brain having become the withered, vestigial organ it is. Your kind are the same hypocrites that preach “diversity”, yet seek to stifle anything sensible by means of your oppressive conformity. It’s a two edged sword, MR Bootlicker, and I only wish to live long enough to see all your kind perish upon it.
I’ve always been of the opinion that those who think that our CO2 emissions are causing “climate change” should off themselves in order to help Save the Planet™.
Argument by authority. Sorry, I know what authority has put forth and judged it a scam.
Thing about authorities and scams is that they eventually use force.
Man, we just need more of those “Purple Sneaker Suicide Cults”, the last one didn’t take out nearly enough nitwits and kool-aid drinkers. Where is Rev. Jones when you really need him?
Dev,
The government says all kinds of things – do you accept everything the government says as being factual (and morally right)? It says – among other things – that it can grab someone off the street, without charging them with a crime, and imprison them indefinitely with having convicted them of anything. Is that also ok?
C02 has been declared a “pollutant” by fiat. Will you also agree that H20 is a “pollutant” if the government so decrees?
We are being forced to drive EVs. The regulations are systematically forcing every car company to build more and more of them – and fewer and fewer non-EVs. The time is now foreseeable when the government will outlaw IC cars.
In the meanwhile, we are forced to subsidize them, which means we are forced to “help” you and others drive EVs.
Most people don’t even know that products of ideal hydrocarbon combustion are H20 and CO2.
Water vapor is a much stronger greenhouse gas than CO2. And lets not forget that water has to go somewhere either as a gas or liquid.
“Will you also agree that H20 is a “pollutant” if the government so decrees?”
Do you really have to ask?
In the last 30 years schooling has crippled almost every victim. They repeat what they are told. Critical thinking is now punished as non-conformist trouble making.
Would not surprise me at all to find that devbolt was a straight A student. A master of rote recital no doubt.
“CO2 is a recognized pollutant. Has been for nearly a decade.”
Are you really that stupid? Did you go to publik skewl?
No, we are not stupid, In fact the majority of us here are college educated in more than one science, and have been around long enough NOT to fall for the “stupidity” of falling in line with govt indoctrination. Our education included “critical thinking and analysis” as well as collective AND independent research, topped off with decades of life experience. Your “recognition” is nothing more than parroting the current political spin-doctors of the post-911 fear-mongering PTB. You want to be a compliant little sheep and take it up the ass from less intelligent fat-ass politicians, help yourself. Don’t expect mindless capitulation to the “authorities” from anyone here. We have brains, we use them, we encourage you to do the same, otherwise, listen long enough to learn something here other than the crap you regard as gospel from on high. Have some self-respect and question authority, because until you do, no one, especially the PTB will regard you as anything more than cannon fodder. The only thing that protects you from living in an outright police-state are those of us who make it loud and clear that we don’t buy the B.S. the PTB are selling.
Your arguments keep saying “will have”, as though there have already been the same number of years of operational statistics to go on. In which case, no one would need convincing, because the EV would have already proved itself to be superior than IC 8-10 years ago. But it hasn’t happened yet, so you and other “speculators” keep making claims with no historical data, and keep bilking taxpayers for the “way of the future” that apparently can’t take place without otherwise robbing and force-feeding it to the public. There IS ample historical data to show that electric transportation IS NOT economically sustainable, decades in fact. Research the electrification, and subsequent DE-electrification of railroads in the US, and you will find facts that, by example, and by default, have proven IC motive power to be superior. And this is in an industry where movement of good has an economy of scale advantage, where personal transportation does, and will not. Even computerized and automated railroad operation is far more complex and expense you you have any clue about, and agian, has the economy of scale to its advantage, which cars and trucks do not. Even electrified urban transport was widely adopted, and then subsequently abandoned, because the IC automobile killed it dead by economic default. It is already known to the PTB that the EV future you idolize and prognosticate will only come about by being involuntarily forced upon this nation of otherwise free-willed, free-moving individuals. You are simply helping them build yet another part of the cage, and only to suit your own comfort, convenience, and piety.
It’s always the same with these self-styled “visionaries” and “progressives” – they’re always crowing how great things will be if only we do as they say and wait for the revolutionary developments just around the corner that will make it all really work. It rarely if ever actually turns out that way.
Even despite that this “electrification”agenda has been tried, and failed already. Now that force is in the favor of the PTB, they are going for it, again! What a surprise, not.
Why should I be forced to subsidize oil companies in the form of tax cuts allowing them free access to public land to remove public resources, production Of pollutants, spills, carcinogens and other things they don’t have to pay for
Clover,
Your argument is fatuous. IC cars are viable – economically, practically – on their merits. They would exist absent any mandates or subsidies; your EVs would almost cease to exist if the mandates and subsidies went away.
The “pollution” argument is a non sequitur. IC emissions – the actually harmful ones – have been reduced to negligible. Hence the need to make up an imaginary – but very well-hyped – new dangerous “emission” – C02 – an inert gas vital to life.
Eric, I would have to say is argument is mostly “flatulence”, and even that could be burned for fuel, lol! Imagine the day when we all wear ass-gas converters, thanks to Uncle!
No idea if this is accurate but if so, interesting reading.
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-car-emissions
Seems EV lifetime impact is heavily influenced by where the energy to manufacture and fuel comes from. Duh.
In the USA, looks like they are no better than efficient ICE cars. All for only 50-100% price premium (at the low end), severe weather and fueling/range restriction and a ticking clock on the battery life.
Want to be ‘green’?
I’m daily driving a $1200 S10 these days. Guaranteed to be ‘greener’ than anything (E or ICE) new, simply due to the fact that it was ‘recycled’ when I bought it from the old couple who put the first 300,000km on it.
How many battery packs is that?
Also note, China and India on the chart. 20-30mpg equivalency. That is around 1/3 of the planets population.
Canada, 87mpg. Unfortunately some of that is from nuke which is anything but ’emission free’ electricity, 200,000 year spent fuel storage and all. Plus, it is -14c and there is a foot of snow outside. Not EV territory 4-6 months a year.
France, 123mpg. Lots of nuke though.
Basically, if you live in Vancouver and only drive in the region (mostly hydro sourced electricity in BC) electric makes sense. Except the cost of the car.
Electric car zealots and Tesla fanbois like to crow about having an 8 year warranty on the battery pack. (Assuming in the case of Tesla the company is still in business in 8 years.) However even when dealing with an established old-line manufacturer there can be circumstances in which early battery failure takes place and the warranty isn’t honored.
The wife likes to watch those TV judge shows and I happened to catch one with her where someone had purchased a 2013 Prius from a private party and a few days later the battery pack up and died. Toyota refused to honor the battery warranty because there was a discrepancy in the odometer reading and presented the owner with a $4000 estimate for replacement. (Granted, dealer cost will be the highest – but batteries for a pure electric are going to be a hell of a lot more expensive no matter where you get them.)
Then of course there is the issue of what happens with the car when it is used and out of warranty. You can purchase say a 10 or 12 year old gasoline powered car and be reasonably assured that if it has not been beaten to death it has a lot of life left before it will need major drivetrain repairs. On a used electric car you’re going to be on your own for whatever the replacement battery is going to cost. (The elitists of course only think in terms of new car buyers.)
Yeah. My S10 is a 1995. It has lost no range since new and is very happy in -25c and 12″ snow weather, with a very toasty cabin. Has all the power options (still working) and none of the nanny crap other than one airbag. A few scratches but otherwise as new.
In the maintenance history, a fuel tank replacement at 225,000km. $380 installed.
Going to be interesting to see how many e-cars are are still on the road after ~25 years. Especially the almost correctly assembled Teslas.
consumers and rental society.
Ever notice that the stuff we are supposed to switch to for the environment doesn’t last as long? It’s as if the resources needed to build new stuff frequently don’t count for anything. It’s just one of many rational logical holes in the story they feed us.
I’m supposed to trade out stuff that will last me decades for stuff that’s going to be worthless and useless lumps of crap in a few years? Boggles the mind.
Brent, Exactly! Paper bags killed trees, plastic bags used petroleum, and cloth re-usable bags get soiled and carry bacteria everywhere. I think on my next trip to the grocery store I will be taking a chair and just DINE IN! Of course, when you go to places where meals are prepared for you, you get god-knows-what in your food, and ass-raped with taxes. It’s a con-job from all direction meant to keep us going around in circles while they take whatever they wish with no consequences or retribution. There is nothing sustainable about the massive consumerism in this society. Any other self-respecting society would have lynched the fat, lazy, sob’s that got us on this track decades ago. Problem is, I don’t think such a society exists in any great quantity any longer, the Amish, maybe?
Most EV’s have an active thermal management system for the battery pack. This includes heating as well as cooling of the pack as is necessary. When an EV charges in below freezing conditions, some of the wall power is used to operate the thermal management system, and the rest goes into the battery. It doesn’t draw power from the battery reducing range. Once the pack is at a certain temp, all power is diverted to charging the pack. What it might do is extend the amount of time you spend charging.
As to how long it takes to charge, for me that’s about 30 seconds. Which is the time it takes to plug the car in at night. Come out the next morning and the car is fully charged. No waiting around. Best part is I can warmup the car remotely and not lose any range. I get into a nice toasty warm car.
Let us know how that “30 second recharge” works out for you on a cross-country trip or if you’re on the road all day long for business.
I take a plane for a cross country trip. Or a more appropriate vehicle depending upon the distance I need to travel. That might mean a hybrid SUV, or plug-in hybrid. Really depends.
It’s okay to be skeptical of EVs. They still have a ways to go for mainstream acceptance. But at a certain point we’re going to run out of cheap accessible oil. And when that time comes we’ll need to have a replacement technology ready to take the place of gas and diesel powered vehicles. The time to develop that technology is now while the pressure isn’t nearly as intense. The economic impact of suddenly having to find an alternative transportation system is going to be far greater than the couple of billion or so dollars per year that the federal government doesn’t get in taxes from EV purchasers.
The point is that for many if not most people electric vehicles at their present state of development are a bad deal. They are very expensive and have serious drawbacks versus even the cheapest conventional car. This will probably change over time but in the here and now they don’t make any real sense for most of us whether looking at economics or overall convenience and functionality.
There is enough oil to last for a VERY long time. (All of the “running out of oil” scenarios which have been purveyed for 50-60 years have failed to materialize, including the most recent “peak oil” nonsense.)
The supply of oil is sufficient for a transition to occur gradually as normal scientific and engineering developments make alternatives attractive. There is no reason for a massive push, it will happen in its own time as the market demands it – as the early transition from electric cars to gasoline took place in the early 20th century.
The problem is you apparently want a criminal gang composed of armed thugs (which is all that government really is) to act as a central planner and decide the technology and transportation winners and losers via violence and coercion. You won’t find many takers for that point of view here. I see no legitimacy in government, and while I can only speak for myself I believe you will find that many here would agree with that assessment.
I would vote for having my own politician house slave, but I’m afraid I’d end up treat them humanely, thus negating the point. Ergo the saying, “don’t mistake my kindness for weakness”, which of course, is just what every power-hungry elitist does anyway.
I also love that, like most of the people peddling the “climate change” scam he has no compunctions about jetting around cross-country, pouring massive amounts of “pollution” into the atmosphere.
Not to mention that part of the asinine “Green New Deal” being pushed by progressive idiots in their war against CO2 is to eliminate air travel. (Or at least as much of it as possible. Probably will still be available to high Party officials.)
They want to get rid of cows too, all those cow farts are Destroying the Planet™. (I really, really wish I were making this stuff up.)
I think I commented earlier today (can’t remember which page, lol) that before it’s all over, these shitwits will have everyone (except themselves) forcibly fitted with a methane converter shoved up our butts! What bunch of lunatics most of the sheeple have become!
What I wan to know is where is the time machine to take me back to 1960? Even with all the bullshit of the day (there was plenty, I was there), I would take it in a heartbeat compared to the mass insanity we see around us today.
Jason, Eric and I talk often of this phenomenon ourselves. We, and many like us, were brought up to be prepared to live in our parent’s world, not this idiotic bullshit quagmire of insanity and mindless conformity. Eric and I both believe we have been all robbed of that future, by the PTB, who, not coincidentally, were the Yuppies and DINKs (double Income No Kids) we despised as young adults in our latter teens! You know, the same pricks in Volvos, BMWs, etc, the ones who tore each other apart at Christmas time to get their adopted only-child a butt-ugly Cabbage Patch doll, complete with Official Adoption Papers. The ones who have mind-fuck their spoiled children and left the rest of us trying rear our children in the face of their never-ending greed and consumerism. Even their children have become little Hitler Youth elitists complete with an entire silver dining room set up their asses! I think we missed our chance to cut their throats while we were still young and reckless ourselves. So, maybe we can do a “Black Adder” Economy Time Machine, you game?
I think I may have been brought up to live in my grandparent’s world. I am certainly ill equipped for this one.
I developed skills that had value decades ago. Well they always have value but today it is acceptable to steal that value and return nothing.
For what I am good at is to be socialized. What I am not so good at, well tough for me. But the thing is in that past world what I was good at could be used to compensate. In this one it’s just acceptable to steal.
Hi Devbolt,
The problem with your argument is that presumes a need – and a solution. When an actual need arises, a solution that addresses that need will arise automatically (assuming the government does not forbid it).
Right now – and for the the foreseeable future – there is no need for electric cars (hence the mandates and subsidies). If the (organic) need for them arises, then mandates and subsidies will not be needed.
By taking a plane cross country, you now get to be probed, fondled, Xrayed with lethal rays, punched, treated like shit by a bunch of pedophilic goons who are not vetted, all that for you while the moozies who cause the havoc get a free pass through the back door by the feds.
Hi Joe,
I relocated my mom to my area so I no longer need to fly – and doubt I ever will again. Unless it’s a one-way trip out of the gulag archipelago…
Good to hear that Eric.
Driving across country is not always practical in terms of cost or time. There are also weather issues to be considered. I fly when it is necessary or I drive when it is practical.
Dev,
Everything that is powered in an EV is powered by the battery, ultimately – at least, once it’s no longer connected to its umbilical.
It has no other source of energy. If you have to park outside, in the freezing cold, the car’s store of energy is what keeps the battery from bricking – and that reduces your range. The cold weather itself then reduces the range further, as also any use of accessories such as heat. Here’s a mainstream press story about this issue: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html
Your comment about “30 seconds” is fatuous. That is the time it takes to plug in. It is not the time it takes to recharge.
One of the huge practical problems with EVs is that if you need to drive right now – and the battery’s charge is low – you can’t. An IC car running on fumes can be fully refueled and ready to go again – for hundreds of miles – in mere minutes. This makes it possible to not have to think much about fueling. You just drive, whenever – however far you need to. Without having to plan around the car’s range/recharge times.
Keep in mind, too, the fact that synergies make maters worse for the EV. The shorter range (vs. an IC car) means having to recharge more often. You have to plug your EV in every day, I bet.
I fuel up my truck once a week.
Even the time it takes you to just hook up your EV is longer (in the course of a week) than the 5 minutes it takes me to put 15 gallons in my Frontier. After which, no waiting at all. Zero. I just get in – and go. No plugging in or unplugging anything.
How long are you waiting for each recharge? It’s at least several hours every week – and that assumes you are plugging in to a “fast” charger.
I can get away with charging my EV roughly every 3 to 4 days. It all depends upon my usage pattern that week. I can charge at work (for free, even), but I tend to leave the chargers for people who are driving shorter range EVs who need it more than I do.
If I was driving an ICE vehicle, I’d be gassing up once every 7 to 10 days. And while the process of putting liquid fuel in my car takes all of 5 minutes once I’m at the pump, there’s considerable time I do have to take out of my day to actually get to the gas station to start pumping. Certainly more time than the 30 seconds once or twice a week I’d spending plugging the car in.
As to waiting for the car to charge, well, I’m usually asleep. So I’m not actually waiting around doing nothing waiting for the car to recharge. I plug in when I get home and at some point in the night the car decides to start charging and is set to finish by the time I need to depart. I just unplug and go. It really isn’t nearly as big an inconvenience as you might think. As to how long it takes to actually recharge the car, it’s usually 5 to 6 hours. Again, depends upon my usage pattern that week and how low I let the range get.
It is true that the cold affects the battery pack. And that it can reduce range. If you plug-in, the car will pull power from the wall to keep the battery pack at a comfortable (for the pack) temperature. If you aren’t plugged in, it will use some battery power to keep itself in the safe zone at the expense of range. That’s an acceptable tradeoff for lot of people. It will take days and days of -40F temps before the battery pack temp falls to a point where the car can’t be used. The pack is a giant thermal mass that takes a while to absorb that much cold. Drivers in Canada and Norway are pretty well familiar, as are a lot of EV owners who live in the northern part of the US.
Let me ask you this, since you seem to be focused on the cold and the purported inconvenience of having to plug-in and un-plug all the time: If you live in a region that gets a lot of cold and snow, how much time do you spend warming your car or truck up in the morning in the winter when temperatures have gotten below freezing? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? Do you have a remote start, or do you have to go out to the car each time? Do you have an engine block heater?
Hi Dev,
You write:
“And while the process of putting liquid fuel in my car takes all of 5 minutes once I’m at the pump, there’s considerable time I do have to take out of my day to actually get to the gas station to start pumping. ”
This makes no sense to me as gas stations are literally pretty much anywhere there are roads. Even where I live – which is way out in The Woods – there is a gas station 5 miles away, on the main road I drive on everyday. I think this is pretty typical. Most people don’t need to drive out of their way to find a gas station; they just drive past one – or stop, if they need fuel.
Five minutes, once maybe twice a week. I doubt any EV could save its owner time/convenience given that. Rather, EV owners accept the inconveniences, because they like other things about their EVs.
Which is fine. Every car has its pros – and cons.
But that is neither here nor there – or shouldn’t be.
Everyone ought to be free to buy whatever car suits them – but not forced to buy or subsidize cars that suit others.
Another point is that nobody had to force anyone to build those gas stations. They were built by private entrepeneurs using their own money and/or money raised through voluntary interaction with investors and lenders.
On the other hand, EV owners apparently want and expect their neighbors to be forced into providing charging stations for them via the violence and coercion of government.
Many gas stations and service stations, when they existed, were owned by the petroleum company they were branded by.
The point is still the same – they were built by private enterprise rather than being forced by government edict.
I can tell that you did not work as a service station manager during the OPEC embargo, as I did.
Well, then show us some stats on how many gas stations in the U.S. were built by federal, state, and/or local governments using taxpayer money versus those built by private enterprise.
True, there are plenty of gas stations. But the ones that I prefer to shop at (brand or cost) are not ideally located on my commute. Even if I were take advantage of the gas station nearest to me, there is still time I have to take out to get into the station, hope that there aren’t people in front of me, and then deal with traffic getting out of the station and back onto the highway. A 5 minute fuel up easily becomes 10 minutes or more.
Can you answer the question about warming up your car in winter?
Hi Dev,
Sure – in re warming up the car in winter: I don’t.
I generally just get in, turn the engine on and go (fastest warm-ups with a modern, fuel-injected car). I could (and many do) use remote start to start the car and let it (or rather, the cabin) warm up prior to driving off, but it’s not something I find worth doing as the car warms itself up within minutes, once I’m actually driving.
Now, with an older (pre-EFI) car such as my ’76 Trans-Am, which has a carburetor, warm-ups take considerably longer. You have to pump the accelerator pedal to set the choke, squirt some fuel in the intake. Then crank it. Once it fires, it will usually take a few minutes on a very cold day for the choke to release and the idle speed to return to normal. But the car is almost 50 years old – and they haven’t made ’em like this in more than 35!
PS: Thanks for being a reasonable person – you’re one of the first EV defenders who has answered questions directly and honestly and with civility. I wish there were more like you!
I always try to be civil in a discussion and stick to facts. Generally if someone stoops to using insulting or perjorative terms I assume they have conceded the debate at that point.
I can appreciate that people like old cars. It’s amazing what they could achieve with the technology 40 or 50 years ago. I’m totally for keeping a car running as long is practical. But I love technology and the improvements that have been brought to the automotive world. Sometimes I replace a car because our needs have changed, like downsizing from a 12-year old minivan to an SUV. But I’ll use that opportunity to upgrade the technology to a hybrid power train to improve my MPG by 6 or 7 over the vehicle I just replaced. Yes, it costs more, but I’m willing to put my money where my mouth is in terms of supporting technology that is better for the environment and my pocket book over the long term.
I find the claim that electric cars are better for the pocketbook dubious in the extreme for the majority of people. (Though of course it may be the case for individuals in some circumstances. This may change when the gunvermin get around to applying road taxes to them.)
Additionally I find the environmental claims for electric cars, as well as the nonsense being purveyed by the Climate Cult, to be even more dubious.
Many of the early cars were electric, so electric is retrograde not advanced technology.
I’d like to have a modern steam-powered vehicle because it could burn anything and its heater would be as instantaneous as an electric’s.
I choose based on fuel quality and price along my path. I don’t have to go out of my way to stop for fuel. On a normal weekday I pass by 6 gas stations. If I count the ones that are trivially out of the way, that is one block or less that number goes up to at least eight.
Tomorrow’s journey will take me past 16 gas stations And I am only counting those I pass by. Not those a block off my path. Those who’s property fronts the roads I will be traveling on. Not even counting the extra ones if I take a slightly different route.
Apparently you choose to ignore facts. Aside from minor differences in efficiency, it is a fact of physics that it takes x amount of energy to do y amount of work, ie, moving your ass from point a to point b. Your tailpipe emissions are zero, but energy conversion at the power plant still requires producing that same amount of energy Plus transmission to your EV, AND stilll has the same net pollution effect, only remote from your specific vehicle. Your virtue signalling, or more appropriately, your electric prick-waving, will not change these facts, ever. Buy what you want, consume it in whatever manner you can afford. Only do so without the lies, whitewashing, and govt subsidy, ie robbery of my taxes. Your arguments are those of an elitist snob trying to justify the frivolity of your self-indulgence. One other inconvenient fact is that from a production standpoint, ANY comparably sized or purposed motor vehicle consumes an average of 80-90 barrels of oil in energy and materials to produce, per unit. So, If you want to ACTUALLY make a difference, stop buying new vehicles period, and use what is already available, like 70% of the rest of us. Otherwise, take your attitude to an EV Fanboi site to preen and admire yourself.
I guess the EV people can always rent a gas car from Enterprise for the winter months. They all seem to have more dollars than sense <- see what I did! I kill me. Where do these non-scientific monkeys get their money? They can't all be tax-takers. The men who buy EVs in an attempt to get pretty enviro-virtue-signaling women to sleep with them – I can see that as the value in owning one.
Hi Cambo,
I know some of these people… or at least, know of them. My ex-wife has an ex-friend owns a Tesla S… and a Mercedes GLK. Consider the latter the Tesla’s “range extender.” These people are millionaires; she ran a cable TV development company; the husband was (I suppose still is) a lawyer. They live in DC. Very liberal. Surprised?
They can be easily recognized by their “broomstick-up-the-anus” posture (or would that be posturing?) that they all have in common. Usually the first to defend their lifestyle of excessive self-indulgence, and equally attracted to others of the same persuasion, you know, politicians, lawyers, realtors, tapeworms, etc.
years ago left Binghamton in a grand marquis 4 in the morning and -14. turned the headlights off at Harrisburg and stopped for gas in central Virginia.
knuckleballer
We’re about to have yet another damned storm tomorrow with 50 mph gusts, a half-foot of snow or more, and temperatures that make Pluto look like the Riviera. One after another. Unless one lives in town, an EV would be tantamount to suicide especially if he got stuck in a snow drift.
Among other battery chargers I have a fancy-pants digital one that reads the charge of the battery it’s hooked to. I’ve discovered that even fresh, new or nearly new, charged batteries lose up to half their potency when ambient temperatures are bitterly cold, as in 25 and 35 below zero. Two days of sitting will drive a typical car battery to a 50% level. I can’t imagine the effect on EVs.
An EV that sits in 25 below temps for two days will lose about 5 to 10 percent of range, if that. The battery cells used to make an EV battery pack are completely different than your typical lead-acid battery for a car. Totally different chemistry, totally different package. Even when the ambient temp is 25 below, the battery pack will be much warmer since it’s a much larger thermal mass and it takes a lot longer for any appreciable change in temperature.
They are still totally inferior in range, convenience, and utility under all weather conditions than that of the least expensive ICE vehicles on the market.
Lithium batteries seem to lose less power in cold temps than lead-acid, as you say, but are much slower to charge in subzero weather. Slow charging time compared to ICE vehicles is already a major obstacle to EVs. The bigger problem is that EVs lose about half their already limited range in frigid weather because of heating the cab and batteries themselves and electrical draw from the myriad electronic systems.
Ehh…the “time-honored” solution was to spend the nights under a big, fluffy comforter…with a cute 32 y.o. redhead with a wide arse, ample rack, and a ‘BAD’ attitude. Other than several Trojans, it’s like “Bluto” sez…”Don’t Cost Nuthin’ “…unless one of the Trojans breaks…then even paying the SMUD bill for running a space heater would pale in comparison to eighteen years of child support!
Surely you’ve seen this.
https://www.teslarati.com/top-5-tips-to-maintaining-ev-battery/
Really?
This is the future?
The only consideration I’ve ever needed for my Toyota trucks was change the oil, and replace worn bits.
Americans hate freedom so much now that they would help the Gestapo force a fellow citizen to get fingerprints for a driver license.
Even most “Good Germans” wouldn’t “worship” the Geheimestatzpolizei as “heroes”…indeed, most of them were seen as cowards and draft dodgers, the real “heroes” of “Der Vaterland” were on the Eastern Front in the “Crusade against Bolshevism!”
Hi Doug,
Indeed! The poltroonery of Americans is equaled only by their bellicosity… when it’s safe to be bellicose, of course. As at a fuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttball game. Or when the government directs the Two Minutes Hate at whomever the enemy of the moment happens to be.
The good stuff starts at about 2:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlxBOJrEKAo
It just hit me that the reason why EV makers are using ~65kw batteries for a range of ~230 miles is so the little tax cattle can still get to work and back (~40 miles average) in -40 winter days.
If you use a resistive type lithium battery heater then it can suck down perhaps 25kw at -20F in 8 hours. The heat pump type is more efficient. Leaf=resistive, Bolt=heat pump.
A 2 year old off-lease Corolla is about $12K and will run just fine at -40 with the added benefit of 3 minute charge times. The Bolt lithium battery pack is $15K. It is best to buy the Corolla as a “winter beater” so you don’t degrade your lithium pack.
We need more EV apologists here…amirite?
Amen, Cambo –
There is no practical or economic reason for buying an EV; if the object is convenience, any IC car is superior. If the object is to lower one’s cost to drive, any new $15k or so economy car will do that better (and any $10,000 used car much better).
What would do the heating if the battery is already frozen?
The argument against electric cars is similar to that of diesel ones in the same temperature regime.
No doubt the androgynous pat doesn’t or can’t debate.
I’ve seen this countless times at anti-gun rallies. The shrill stupid crowd won’t speak to interviewers who simply want to hear their opinions. Never mind that 99%of these snowflakes think that AR means assault rifle.
They also equate the 2nd Amendment as meaning the use of muskets of which the new byword is they take 10 minutes to reload.
I can promise them if I could afford it I’d have the latest arms such as IBMs, F35s, the latest antimissle defense and nuclear weapons systems that could reach half way around the world
Now those are “arms”.
When I got low I’d launch other weapons of mass destruction like Teslas. Fire bombing in its edgiest form.
Roger and amen, Eight!
These people are immune to facts and shielded against logic. Guns bad! EVs good!
No, EV batteries bad, guns bad.
https://nypost.com/2019/02/05/texas-man-killed-by-exploding-vape-pen/
Like the article said: “… I just hope, if anything, I hope it stops someone from [smoking electronic cigarettes]. I don’t know how many more people will have to die.”
I just hope this article stops someone from buying an EV with the same type of battery. Save yourself!
Thankfully the batteries used in an EV use a much more sophisticated charging system, and use higher quality materials and components. Stop compare apples to mice…
8, we are brought up in a system where one is “smart” by repeating what teacher (authority) says. So what do these people do? Repeat.
From day 1 in schools, kids are taught to not think for themselves, not be creative, not do what they want, not discover what they’re good at, not do anything … instead they always have to obey and do what they’re told, think what they’re told to think when they’re told to do so, whether they’re interested or not. The only thing the kids can do on their own is fritter on their dumb phone or look at TV/video game screens, or some rebel or drink alcohol to escape the oppression/suppression.
Which is why some of my indoctrinators hated me. Today, they’d have me on Ritalin for sure.
And on the other side of the coin, a summer heat wave of 90s and triple digits, especially with 100 percent humidity, means you’ve got an air conditioner connected to a battery trying to move down the road at 60 miles an hour. And you know how much juice they use…or any energy. Matter of fact, every time the gigantic compressor in my 1968 Oldsmobile kicked on, it caused the 390 gross horsepower Rocket 455 engine under the hood to shudder!
What’s more, high heat is just as hard, if not harder, on batteries than cold. I had a battery in my Outback that was barely six months old conk our on me on a 90 degree day in July. And how will you keep the batteries from overheating?
And if the battery conks out, you could be stuck in a hot car…or by the side of the road. The consequences range from frustrating to lethal.
Finally, brownouts in the summer due to heavy AC use are an all-too-common occurrence. And if a lightning storm knocks out the power…well, guess you’re not going anywhere in either case.
Regarding battery heat issues, I have a friend with a Chevy Volt, and the battery, if I am remembering correctly, has a dedicated AC system to keep it cool.
Distant family members drive a Model X and live in San Francisco. They didn’t go home for Thanksgiving a few months ago because the temperatures in So. Oregon along I-5 were consistently below 40, and, currently, a gap exists in the supercharger network between Grants Pass and Eugene which is the limits of the vehicle in warmer weather.
Never had a problem in that stretch of road in my Camry.
I’m actually surprised Medford doesn’t have charging. It would be a natural with the Britt weed -er- music festival location nearby.
True dat on the cost of using a space heater; last year we had a similar cold snap in December/January so while my furnace was working 24/7 to maintain room temperature I had a 1500 watt space heater running to keep the living room livable ?. My electric bill for that time frame was about double what it normally is, just to keep one room comfortable. Batteries are for flashlights, thank God for the power grid from a retired electric utility line worker.
Things like this cold spell and hurricanes only show the ridiculousness of electric cars.
Sunday it wasn’t nearly as cold. I left the li-ion battery powered go-pro in my car for several hours. Now the battery is old so it’s capacity is down somewhat but still more than a hour constant use and two hours if used about 1/2 at a time. After being in the cold it was down to five minutes. It was fully charged. I’ve seen this numerous times.
The way to better this is to have the battery pack heated. Not only when charging but always when the ambient temperature is low. (discharge heating may be enough during operation) Which of course takes energy from the battery pack if it is not plugged in.
So image driving to work and then parking where there is no charger and the car has to sit there in the cold using its remaining power to keep the battery warm.
Perhaps this is why mr musk made the boring co flamethrower !! Sounds like a pretty good idea now!
My Inspire 1 drone has a battery pre-heater for cold days. Drops capacity by about 5% or so depending on how long you keep it running, but warmed batteries have longer flight time.
I imagine a common scenario with electrics will go like this: Leave the heated garage with a full charge. Drive to work and park outside all day, letting the vehicle cold soak. Time to leave, find that your range has been greatly reduced. Or perhaps the vehicles will keep the battery pack warmed up during the day? Either way it’s wasted energy not accounted for in the EPA’s miles per gallon equivalent figures.
Love this article. Ive been trying to explain this concept to people for some time now but this article put it very well.
Most people who can afford teslas now, can afford to own another fuel car and truck for this weather so they just drive their fuel cars in poor weather.
What happens when the progressives get their wish and fuel cars are gone? Then in the winter they cant even make it to work in their $40k gadget?
If afraid theyre not going to understand until it is too late.
Most of the snotty Tesla drivers think that we, the “Great Unwashed”, should be herded into “Mass Transit”, like CATTLE.
YOu have to admit, the Jewish would-be Overlords that consider we “Goyim” as Cattle are working a good paradigm…in theirs, they don’t even shovel the cow shit, the CATTLE do it for them!
Check out the latest Consumer Reports. The watermelons there think Teslas are the cat’s meow.
People have started talking about it on twitter, though doubt the mainstream will pick it up. For example this guy, 100D model x, with an official range of 350 miles – at -23F, he is getting 120!!! 2/3 of his range wiped out!! Anything else and imagine the uproar from the consumer groups!!
https://twitter.com/wspear21/status/1090612879647215616
So much for being more effecient than a fuel car….
Not surprised his predicted range dropped to 120 miles. Going 75 MPH into a 20+ MPH headwind would drag down the MPG of a traditional ICE vehicle as well.
Many ICE vehicles can easily go 300 miles or more on a tank of fuel under those conditions, and can be “recharged” in 5 minutes or less just about anywhere.
Once again, battery electric vehicles are distinctly inferior.
Depends upon your use case for the car. In some cases they are superior.
Perhaps in a small, microscopic, miniscule number of cases. For the vast majority of us they are inferior. Thus the lack of market demand for them.
The point that Eric makes very eloquently is that sans the iron fist of the State, practically nobody is clamoring for electric cars. There is simply no urgent need to go electric.
Hi Dev,
I don’t disagree that EVs can “work” for some people – although I doubt anyone is saving money overall. But that’s not really the issue. The issue is whether it is right to use force to prop up a business for which there isn’t adequate market demand to otherwise sustain it. The lack of adequate demand is pretty persuasive evidence on the face of it that whatever the item is, it isn’t viable on the market. And in that case, why should it even be on the market?
People got mad – rightly – about the government bailout of GM. But that was just a one-time thing. Tesla continues to suck the tit of the government; that is to say, suck on our tits – without our consent, which is a form of rape.
Very few people object to anyone attempting to build and sell EVs; I certainly do not. If there is a market for them, great – or at least, I would never consider it my place to interfere with the market.
But there is almost no real market for EVs; this is a simple statement of fact – proved by the need to force their manufacture via mandates and subsidize their sale.
And that is what I and others object to – not EVs, per se.
This thought crossed my head this morning. You only saw the big V8’s and Diesels in the media pictures chugging down the road in the blizzard. How many TSLAS’ even braved going down the driveway in that weather? Probably zero.
Temp on my dash said -23F when I passed a some sort of Tesla Motors product yesterday morning. Don’t know how far it got. It was headed to the expressway.
Such a pity…
You built this excellent straw argument, and there are almost a million EV drivers, many of whom
are in the Midwest…
You must be so sad that there aren’t thousands of dead EV drivers frozen to death by the side of the road.
No, they had a cold ride home…
BTW, I have driven in a VW Bug in the winter. Those were also really cold in the winter.
Clover,
Your comments are (once again) neither here nor there as regards the points raised in the article. That there are “x” number of EVs in the hands of “x” number of owners says nothing about the effect of temperature or accessory use on battery charge/range.
I’ve noticed that every time I point out an indisputable fact to you – for example, that the Volt failed years before GM announced the cancellation of the Cruz; that trucks and SUVs are the most profitable vehicles on the market; that a concept car is not a production car – you don’t acknowledge the error, as a decent and honest person would – but instead eruct a whole new set of non sequiturs.
It’s a pathological aversion to both truth – and logic – when they run counter to what you want; what you feel.
And in re old air-cooled Bugs: They sold on the merits (no mandates, no subsidies) and the heat actually worked very well if the tinwork/ducts was in proper order. They are German cars. It gets cold in Germany. They actually got warm much more quickly than other cars – being air-cooled.
I’ve owned three, so speak from personal experience.
Poor ol’ (racist) Clover!
Affectionately,
Your “hick” “redneck” Libertarian bete noir
Consider that the VW “Bug” was designed by Ferdinand Porsche (who, BTW, contributed much to the design of both marks of Germany’s “Tiger” tanks, though his own submissions were rejected, the former being re-purposed into the ill-fated “Elephant” tank destroyer) in the mid-1930s, and Porsche by his own admission heavily “borrowed” from an existing Tatra family of small cars (led to a post-war lawsuit against VW by the Czech Government, settled for $1M DM in 1965) in the mid-1930s per direction of Hitler as the “Kraft Durch Freude Wagen”, or “Strength-Through-Joy Car”, though everyone called it the “Kafer”, or “Beetle”. This car was in production from 1938 to 2003, a production run of SIXTY-FIVE years, the longest known run for a mass-produced vehicle. The Beetle’s simplicity and ease of production and maintenance is a testament to the genius of Ferdinand Porsche.
You’re old enough to drive?
I figured you a 12 year old girl trying to masquerade as an adult.
Where do you get your handle from, the Uncle of Jerry the Mouse (whom had a way to pluck Tom’s whiskers even on TV)..
https://tomandjerry.fandom.com/wiki/Uncle_Pecos
You must have had a stuck thermostat on that Beetle. I recall as a kid we had a ’60 Beetle, by the time I was ten it was my Dad’s beater..Mom drove a brand new Chevy Bel Air wagon, Pops was in the Air Force, stationed at Andrews AFB near DC…and even on the coldest Maryland winter morning, that Bug started right up and by the time we were on Branch Avenue or on the Beltway, the cabin was warm enough to bake bread!
But why should they have even had have a cold ride home?