Here’s the latest reader question, along with my reply!
Daniel writes: Saw your segment on InfoWars about Tesla… I wanted to respectfully say that you’re wrong about the Model 3 not costing $35,000. The base model is for sale for $35,400, and it’s easily the best car to drive on the market. It also provides far more mobility than virtually any car available. If you want to drive one for a day for free, give me a call and I can tell you how – I can promise you that it will change your life.
My reply: You’re right the $35k Tesla 3 is available… finally. After years of Elon taking deposits for cars he failed to deliver. But it’s only available for that sum with the low-performance battery – and only in black.
Mobility?
The range of this version of the Model 3 is 150 miles – best case – and the car, like all electric cars – takes at least 30-45 minutes to recover a partial (80 percent) charge.
If you have access to a “fast” charger.
If not, it’s hours. As in overnight. Wait until tomorrow.
Leaving aside the absurdity of having to wait literally a minimum of at least six times as long as it takes to fully refuel an IC car (5 minutes or less) you now have only 80 percent of the 150 mile best-case range.
So now you’re down to 120.
Which range is further greatly affected by how you drive as well as extremes of heat and cold.
Even assuming 100 percent charge and no loss of range from use of electrically powered accessories such as AC or heat, this car cannot do even a 200 mile trip without at least one lengthy (or overnight) pit stop.
How does this “provide far more mobility than virtually any car available”?
My almost 20-year-old pick-up truck can go 300 miles on a full tank and I can refill the tank to full in 5 minutes almost anywhere, anytime. Its range is not greatly affected by use of accessories such as AC and heat.
That is mobility.
You claim the Tesla 3 is “easily the best car to drive on the market.” By what metric?
I don’t deny the Tesla 3 is quick and quiet. The electric motor makes lots of torque.
But these attributes come at extremely high cost – monetarily as well as functionally. No different, really, than buying an IC high-performance car.
Note that EVs – especially Tesla EVs – are touted for their ability to accelerate quickly, their “cool” tech and their sexiness. I don’t deny any of the foregoing. But they are attributes of indulgence, not economy or practicality.
To get a plausibly practical Tesla 3 – one with a battery that can let the car travel more than 150 miles – and in a color other than black – you will spend close to $50k.
But there is no economic argument to be made for any $50k car – or even a $35k car.
These are high-end cars that happen to be electric.
Which – as such – I have no problem with. I like Porsches, too. But I am not forced to “help” people buy Porsches. Why should anyone be forced to “help” someone buy a Tesla or any other economically idiotic EV?
The truth is that if EVs made economic and practical sense it wouldn’t be necessary to mandate them or subsidize them.
The fact that it is necessary to mandate and subsidize them tells you everything you need to know about the merit of EVs in relation to IC cars as economical/practical conveyances.
…
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Holy crap, so many fan bois coming out of the woodwork to defend Tesla and Elon’s honor. I’ve learned never to argue with fan bois because it’s time wasted that could have better been spent doing something worthwhile. I will wait until the Teslas the fan bois are driving spontaneously combust. That makes the point that EVs are dangerous wastes of fiat better than I ever could.
Hi Cantankerous!
The sub rosa thing here isn’t even the Teslas, per se. I certainly have no issue with people buying them – or Trabants, for that matter. If that’s what they like – and if they are buying whatever it is with their own money.
But Teslians want our “help” buying (and building) their cars – which I do object to.
Since the Teslians can’t defend their cars on economic or practical grounds, they tout how “cool” they are and other such things.
Porsche people do this, too. But I don’t hammer on them because Porsche people aren’t demanding my “help” buying their new 911s.
Hey there Eric! Give those DKW-theiving East Commie Germans a little Trabbi love, will ya? Anything that has a wool and plastic body, and a premix smoking 2-cylinder 2-stroke can’t be THAT bad, can it? 🙂
Actually, what would be very useful to me right now would be a plug-in electric jeep: fairly compact with high clearance and 4wd. A real 200 mile range would do everything that we currently do with our old Cherokee. We have to plug in the block heater nearly every night in the winter anyway.
But what would something like that cost? It’s hard to imagine it ever being cost effective compared to ~$4K for a 30 year old six banger.
Hi Dread,
I know about what this would cost – around $70k to start. See Rivian.
See the divide being engineered? Rich people will have all the power and capability they can afford. The rest of us can, so to speak, eat cake…
It’s ridiculous, isn’t it?
If I were more ambitious to work on stuff, I would pull the engine and transmission out of an old otherwise working jeep, spline a DC motor to the front of the transfer case, and build a rack under the hood to hold maybe a dozen truck batteries. That’s about all it would take other than some sort of variable controller.
If electric cars have so few parts, why are they so damn expensive ???
I’d rather drive a 91 CRX base model for the rest of my life than ever set foot inside a Tesla Dealer or look at some craptastic EV/Hybrid
They’re not the future, it was failed technology from 100 years ago and it’ll fail once more, no matter how hard the globalists push things
I encourage all of you to call up your local Tesla dealership and ask to test drive the Model 3… You can also do an extended, overnight test drive for completely free. I understand your concerns with the AI and technology aspect of electric vehicles, and that is definitely a legitimate position to take. But until you act like your’e an expert on Teslas and EV’s, you need to go drive one yourself. I guarantee you that once you drive one, you will wish you could own one yourself.
The V3 Superchargers are charging at 1,000 MPH, which are currently being deployed across the country.
The V2 superchargers charge at half this rate, 500 MPH.
So with a 240 mile range battery on the Standard Range Model 3, you can get a full charge in less than 30 minutes on the V2, and a full charge in less than 15 minutes on the V3… And this technology is constantly improving. In fact, with recent software updates, the Tesla battery will now begin warming up on your way to a supercharger to effectively increase overall charing speed. But people can also easily charge their cars overnight as well (in their home or apartment building) at more reduced electricity rates while they’re asleep in bed.
Your obnoxious, loud, noisy, vibrating, smelly pick up rigs have terrible gas mileage (on average between 15-20 combined MPG), which costs 2-4 times as much money for fuel than a Tesla, dependent upon the local electricity and gasoline costs.
Moreover, gasoline cars are very stressful to drive for long periods of time because they’re not easy to handle and give the driver fatigue after a short amount of time. Teslas do the opposite – they actually energize the driver while removing (and reversing) motor fatigue and stress. In addition, gasoline vehicles can’t accelerate nearly as fast as a Tesla (even the Standard Range Base Model), so in my Tesla I’m beating you through any traffic light, at any green light, or any passing opportunity on the road… That’s real mobility! Accelerating quickly is a very practical attribute in a car… It’s not “elitist” to not want to wait for a red light and to want to be out front on the road… That’s fun and practical.
In closing, the fact that a Tesla doesn’t have an internal combustion engine and complicated drive train (only has 16 moving parts including the 4 wheels) means that it’s not going to break down and have maintenance costs and issues like their gasoline counterparts. This also means they’re not going to depreciate as quickly and will retain more value over the life of the car. The model 3 is also the safest car on the road as tested by the United States government, and they’re 1/7 less likely to get into a crash than the average car in the United States. Tesla is also releasing its own insurance product very soon that will beat any of its competitors in price. With safety, performance, reliability and maintenance, fuel, insurance, and depreciation savings, a $35,000-$50,000 car is going to deliver and retain way more value over the life of the car!
Wow! How much kool-aid did you drink?
Those are facts, Mike. Like I said, until you’ve actually driven a Tesla yourself you’re really in no credible position to act like an expert on modern vehicle technology. I encourage you to go test drive one and I think you’ll have a change in opinion.
They are not facts, they are opinions. You seem to see yourself as omniscient, knowing what “99%” of all people’s driving needs are. I say that 99% of all people are not interested in the “experience” of driving one of those expensive toys, they are interested in inexpensive and convenient transportation. Tesla is a big fail on both of those items.
With current electricity and gasoline prices, Tesla is the most affordable car to drive in terms of gas mileage 🙂 And way more convenient than a gasoline engine… No vibrations, noises, smells… Much quicker acceleration… Way more pleasant driving experience!
Wait until you get hit with road taxes. A huge part of the cost of gasoline is taxes. Right now you are being given favoritism on that score, but it will not last. Cost will be closer to parity once you are paying your “fair share” to maintain the roads.
More convenient? That’s a hoot. Maybe if the only places you ever travel are within round-trip of your garage (if one has a garage) or the thinly-spread charger network. Smells? Maybe from my old 1970s barge. Not from modern vehicles. There’s more vibration from bad roads than from the engine. Quicker acceleration – not worth the cost and inconvenience, and not important to many people.
“Pleasant” is in the eye of the beholder.
Anon,
Nah, something like this
https://www.carfax.com/vehicle/2T1BU4EE1AC469775
is way cheaper to drive than a Tesla.
Jeremy
That’s something the elitists pushing Tesla and the like just don’t see – that for many people a 10-15 year old car is going to be way cheaper and way more flexible. Even if you look at new vehicles you can still drive way cheaper and and go wherever you like without having to plan around range, charging, and supercharger stations.
Of course scratching the surface, that elitist mentality came out here pretty quickly. The guy pontificates about what’s the best thing for 99% of the public while obviously having no concept of how many if not most people live.
I have a 2015 Ford Focus which gets high 20s in the city; low 30s in combined driving; and on the highway, it gets low 40s mpg wise. For what the car can do, that’s pretty darn good! I paid $16k OTD, or less than HALF of the cheap Tesla Model 3 costs; that’s less than a THIRD of what the pricier version of the Model 3 available when I bought my Focus. For me, it would have taken DECADES to recoup the gas savings with the Model 3. Even though I have a garage, I didn’t want to spend over a thousand bucks on a charger and its installation. I don’t have to worry about replacing an expensive battery pack, either. Finally, even if I do need work done on my Focus, there are a lot more shops capable of doing that work vs. the Tesla.
Again, unlike most on here, I like EVs in general, and I like Teslas in particular. I could easily live with a Tesla-even on a road trip. That said, neither make SENSE for me-as in DOLLARS AND CENTS. If the Tesla only cost a few grand more, that’s one thing; I could recoup that. However, it simply does not MAKE SENSE to spend double or triple on a car when my Focus will provide me with good, practical, cheap, and FUN transportation. Ergo, when I replaced my old Nissan, I replaced it with another ICEV.
I think the idea of electric is great – but we need a better, less expensive, longer-lasting, and more energy-dense mobile power source to make it a competitive replacement for conventional gas and diesel vehicles. I’m sure that day will come, it is just a matter of when.
Of course I’ve been seeing claims that the “miracle battery” is just around the corner for over 40 years now. I’ve lost count of how many different types were going to be “the answer” that never got out of the laboratory. Maybe there is one on the horizon but it’s not here yet.
Hi Jason,
I’ve been covering EVs since the dawn of the modern EV era… which was in the early ’90s and so 30 years ago. While EVs today are sexier and quicker than they were circa 1995, the fundamental economic and practical problems haven’t really changed.
Yes, range has increased. But until an EV’s real-world range is greater than that of an IC car, the recharge time will obviate that. It baffles me that people will defend an EV that cannot make a 200 mile trip without having to worry about an extended stop as an improvement over an IC car that can easily travel 400 miles nonstop and resume travel in minutes rather than hours.
And even if that issue gets solved – which will require a “breakthrough” in battery tech that shows no signs of imminence because it will require new battery tech – the cost of EVs is much too high for them to be other than boutique indulgence for the virtue signaling affluent.
Hi Mark,
I don’t dislike EVs, actually! I dislike the idiocy – and iniquity – of current EVs, especially Teslas. Which are high-cost luxury-sport cars that happen to be electric. I don’t think I should be forced to “help” people buy luxury-sport cars, whether EV or IC.
One of the other annoying things about Elon is that his cars have totally perverted the design object of EVs – which ought to be to cost less than an IC economy car and be more practical. Who cares how “ludicrously” fast a Tesla is? That is something of concern to people who buy toys.
Nothing wrong with that – unless someone else is forced to pay for that.
That’s actually a good, solid car. Though it’s a Corolla S (meaning it’s supposed to be fun), I prefer either a Ford Focus or Mazda3. They’re both economical; unlike most other cars, both actually FUN to drive!
Hi Mark,
Both will also go 400 miles on a tank – with the AC on – at 75 MPH. And be refueled in 5 minutes or less.
One does NOT spend $60k to save money!
Hi Anonymous,
“With current electricity and gasoline prices, Tesla is the most affordable car to drive in terms of gas mileage… ”
Really? Are you unaware that there are numerous brand-new cars one can buy for less than half the subsidized cost of the least expensive version of the Model3? How is spending $35k-plus on a Tesla more “affordable” than spending $13k on a new Nissan Versa? Do you really think you”ll end up ahead, as far as saving money?
But then, you know as well as I that saving money isn’t the thing. Virtue signaling is.
The entire keg of it, apparently. After that spiel, I’m surprised he has any left to even offer the rest of us, who, btw, are NOT that thirsty, lol!
What a load of unmitigated crap.
How long will the batteries last if constantly “Supercharged?” What is going to be the resale value of a Tesla with a dead battery pack? Safest car on the road? The “safest car on the road” claim is highly suspect because you don’t know if it’s the car itself that makes it less likely to get into a crash. (Tesla “autopilot” has in fact been credited with a number of crashes.)
$35,000? For that you get 150 mile range, on a new battery, under ideal conditions! I can buy a new gasoline car for about 1/3 of that cost that will beat that hands down and can be “recharged” in a few minutes without having to worry about degrading a six-figure battery pack. For that matter I can buy a used gasoline car for a couple of grand that will beat that hands down. No worries about planning a trip around spotty recharging points, just gas up and go. If I were in the market for a new car Tesla would not be on my radar at all.
Modern internal combustion engines are very clean, reliable, and require minimal maintenance. Even figuring in the maintenance costs one is still way ahead with gasoline. My own gas burner is decades old and has yet to require any kind of major drivetrain service.
Tesla is built on a house of cards. If it had to stand on its own merits without government favoritism, the carbon credit scam, and gullible investors drinking the Jim Jones/Elon Musk style kool-aid it would have shuttered a long time ago.
Current Model 3 batteries are tested to last 300,000-500,000 miles. And the battery cells can be replaced after they depreciate. Not sure on the costs yet because it hasn’t happened to anyone thus-far.
In 2020, the Model 3 batteries will be tested to last for up to 1,000,000 miles.
No Tesla Vehicle has ever rolled over, and in the fatality cases with autopilot, the driver’s have to be prepared to take over control of the vehicle at all times. Safest car on the road tested by the United States Government… 1/7 less likely to get into an accident compared to the average car on the road in the U.S. More info below.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
With only 16 moving parts on the drive train, virtually no maintenance required for the vehicle. No combustion engine that makes thousands of explosions every time the car is turned on… Much more reliable. And technology is continuously improving at a rapid rate!
Sounds like bullshit to me. Lithium-ion batteries decay with time and charge/discharge cycles, particularly when fast charged and fully charged.
Rollover in most vehicles, excepting some with very high center of gravity, are rare to begin with. The United States Government is a criminal enterprise that lies about everything. You won’t find many people here who give that statistic much credence.
You keep repeating the “16 moving parts” mantra as though it has any real meaning regarding the actual long-term cost of ownership. Gasoline engines today are extremely refined and reliable. A 10, 15, even 20 year old gasoline car still retains usefulness and value.
On the other hand, when the Tesla battery pack fails, and it will, that car will have essentially zero value. A throwaway.
Your “thousands of explosions” nonsense is a window into just how ill-informed you are. Gasoline engines do not employ “explosions” – that would be destructive detonation (ping). What actually occurs is a controlled burn. So you are wrong right out of the starting gate in your comparisons. Being that is the case, why should we believe anything you have to say on the subject?
But Jason, the US govt says it is 1/7 less likely to get into an accident compared to the average car on the road in the U.S. Dan even provides a link to the Vehicle Safety Report, from a trustworthy source I might add, to back up his claim.
In 2020, the Model 3 batteries will be tested to last for up to 1,000,000 miles. Look at all the progress we’ve made in just one year! Soon even the smartphones will last 1,000,000 miles.
With all these tests and so few moving parts, the Teslas are nearly perfect vehicles. Easily the best car to drive on the market, and the most mobile car on the market. Any imperfections can be sorted out with a software update. I’d like to see your ICE do that!
I see your point! After all, the same highly trustworthy government has assured us that it was a handful of Saudis alone that took down the World Trade Center and surrounding buildings with no foreknowledge on our part, the attack on Pearl Harbor was a complete and total surprise, the war in Vietnam was necessary or the Chicoms would be landing in L.A., and soon it will be in our national interest to invade Iraq. With that kind of track record we can put complete faith in their assessment of a type of vehicle they are trying their damnedest to push on the market, all for our own good of course.
I bet in another few years they’ll be testing those batteries for 100,000,000 miles!! You’ll be able to drive your Tesla on the sun and just think of the short recharge time with solar panels there!
You bring up another point in Tesla’s favor – any right-thinking person would clamor for a car that the manufacturer can make remote changes to at any time, even take control of. It’s doubleplusgood!
Oops, that should have been “…that it was in our national interest to invade Iraq – and soon to be repeated in Iran.” We really need that editing feature here! 🙂
In the real world that’s not happening.
Then there’s the memory chip. Which has a finite life and when it goes it basically bricks the car. It fails around the 4 year mark. The official fix is a couple grand or more. And even if replaced by soldering a new one on the board it will fail again in four years and by then probably won’t be available.
Daniel,
Those battery life projections are nonsense – unless a way has been found to circumvent physical facts about battery chemistry and the effect of charge/discharge cycling.
Tesla (Musk) is infamous for making wild claims – and not delivering. In any event, these are claims – not substantiated. Let’s deal with facts and leave the claims to the carnies.
Yes, the Tesla has fewer moving parts. It also has one very expensive part – the battery – which will not last the 15-20 year normal service life almost any modern IC car’s drivetrain will deliver without needing replacement of the engine or transmission.
It’s true you will pay less for some routine maintenance (e.g., oil changes) but you pay for tires and brakes and such just like anyone else. And you pay much more for the car – obviating the maintenance savings.
PS: If you had to actually buy your car – without the subsidies and giveaways – it’d be closer to $50k for the Model 3 you’ve got and $70k for the “well-equipped” version.
Your car is much less practical than any $13k new IC car.
It is far less economical than any $13k new IC car.
I’ll grant that it’s quicker – and sexier – than the $13k car or even most $35k cars. But now we’re talking criteria that apply to indulgent cars, for people who can afford to indulge in them.
Why should such cars be subsidized and mandated?
Do you think it is right to use the force of government to extract money for the sake of a billionaire such as Musk? And for the sake of people who clearly can afford to buy their own new cars using their own money instead of other people’s money?
The Tesla on-site “safety statistics” have already been debunked on several occasions as it grossly misrepresents data to it’s own ends. Don’t bother asking me for a link, either, you can do your own research. My grandfathers horse and buggy has fewer moving parts than any automobile, lasted longer, cost less, and went across terrain that few, if any, 4WD trucks could. In the Early 20th Century, every city, and most towns had electric public transport, and the railways used electric locomotives on their mainlines, extensively. Ever wonder why neither survived to modern day in this country? There are many complex economic and political reasons. Again, do your own research as most of us here already have. In case you haven’t already figured it out, this is not a comment site full of uneducated, inexperienced “You-Tuber” fanboys!
Ever research the manufacture and environmental impact of lithium-ion “fuel cells”? The ONLY environmental feature of any EV is the lack of tailpipe emissions. Everything else that makers EVs “go” adds up to things far more “harmful” than the entirety of IC transportation. It’s not what is being “advertised” about EVs that is the issue, but rather, what is NOT being said.
EVs and hybrids are not new technology, as they have been in use in many venues globally for over 100 years. There are economic and practical reasons the IC engine continues to dominate transportation, and the world’s economy.
When any EV, by road, air, or rail, has the flexibility, range, and universal utility of the IC motor, you need to let the world know, Mr. Galt!
gtc, I approve this message. The US patent office holds, illegally, thousands of patents relating to creating energy.
I have no doubt big oil wants to continue to dominate but lithium mining, explosive cars and mulcting the public for a billionaire’s gain only serves the billionaire and not the means of propulsion. Then there are the repairs that can’t be done to Tesla cars or if done, are not done correctly since it doesn’t appear anyone, including TM, can get them done.
Who wants a vehicle you can buy body parts for? Who wants a vehicle you can’t repair yourself? Evidently the last question is weighing heavy on the minds of a great many people since every years more and more automobiles are leaving assembly lines and going to some remote place to sit because they can’t be sold in the quantities they’re produced. What happens then is the price of a new vehicle continues to climb. Screw Tesla and the onerous lawmakers and bureaucrats that caused them to be made and taxed us for them.
I meant body parts you “can’t” buy.
BTW, if safety is such a concern, what would you tell the families of the 3 dead Tesla occupants in Florida several weeks ago? How would you justify a vehicle with no mechanical means of exit when the battery power is compromised. How can your “green utopia” justify the agonizing death of burning alive while the smoke created by the battery combustion turns to flouric acid in your lungs, eating you up from the inside-out?
Or are you just another “have to break some eggs” bastard like E-Loon who will accept NO responsibility for the inherently lethal design of his “creation”?
P=VI
And then there’s chemistry.
Also fast charging reduces sell life. If you want the longest life you need to charge slowly.
These are facts. You can mitigate them but they aren’t going away.
I found myself at the Cape for a SpaceX shot. I parked my Diesel Cayenne at the end of a long line of Tesla 3’s in the VIP lot. After the return of the ship, I readied to leave, went to the lot, the guy driving the one next to me looked at my car, smirked and said “Hey wanna race that thing?” and snickered.
I looked at him, smiled, and said: “Sure, I’ll race you to Miami.”
For some reason, he didn’t think that was funny. Tesla people have no sense of humor at all.
Hi Alex,
Indeed. The ones I’ve dealt with are supercilious and condescending. And when you challenge them – and poke holes in their virtue signaling – they tend to get really mad. Always a good time!
Haha…I originally read that as “Spand-X Launch”! Well, there’s a thought, why don’t we just make a giant Spandex Outer-Orbit-Sling-Shot, govt. subsidized, of course! We can call it SOOSS, because it sounds snazzy!
“Daniel”, my 1992 Astro Van has a 30 Gallon fuel tank, endless cargo space, and at 20 mpg still has over a 500 mile range. What in God’s name is your definition of “mobility”?? Your car carries a fraction of cargo, people, or what ever you carry. Your range is abysmal, and “refueling time” is incomprehensible! You are right about one thing. It WILL change our lives, turning everyone into dependent, infantile parasites, with NO productivity value whatsoever! Not everyone strives for a lifestyle under the thumb of the emerging technocracy.
“Daniel” was my thought exactly. Something doesn’t sit right, does it? HAHAHAHAHAH
Plugging your car in overnight while you’re sleeping means you don’t need to take time out of your day to re-fuel, unless you’re traveling more than 150 miles in a day… Which 99% of people aren’t. And when you do need to travel more, there’s supercharging stations all over the country that can now charge a battery up to speeds of 1,000 MPH. I’m not going to shame you for your ignorance since I can tell you haven’t sat in a Tesla before.
More nonsense. For starters, not everyone has a place where an electric car can be plugged in overnight, bunkie. Ever hear of these things called “apartments”? Many of those don’t even have a parking lot, let alone charging stations! There are certainly no “supercharging” stations around here and there are gas stations on near every other corner.
I would not consider the purchase of a Tesla for a nanosecond.
Mabey you can’t afford one, which I’d imagine is the case for most people commenting with ignorant responses. If you’re not living in a Class-A apartment complex, than you probably don’t have an electric charger and you probably can’t afford a Tesla.
What you see as some kind of insult reveals your elitist attitude – the “smallfolk” who aren’t living in a Class-A apartment complex, don’t have their own garage, and don’t have $35K-$50 burning a hole in their pocket for an expensive toy just don’t count for anything. Such peons can only look at envy at Highborn such as yourself, living the Class-A life and lording over them in your expensive electric car. “Out of my way peasants, as I out-accelerate your old smelly gas-burning oxcarts! Make way! Make way!”
Far from being “ignorant” my responses, as well as those of other here, are 100% on point as the the drawbracks of Tesla and the nature of the company.
Anon,
I’m an EV fan; I’m a Tesla fan, since my old company WORKED with them on a regular basis; and, I’m a ABB Formula E fan. Unlike the vast majority of folks on here, I like EVs; I think that they’re cool.
That said, they’re not QUITE ready for prime time. One, they cost too much; even those of us who can afford them have opted for more economical ICEV options. Two, the batteries (or eventual energy storage system used) need work.
Finally, speaking of ignorance, I’m going to point out a couple of examples of yours. From your post…
Mabey you can’t afford one, which I’d imagine is the case for most people commenting with ignorant responses. If you’re not living in a Class-A apartment complex, than you probably don’t have an electric charger and you probably can’t afford a Tesla.
Number one, it’s MAYBE, not ‘mabey’; how can you screw up the spelling of a simple, two syllable word we’ve all used since childhood? Number two, you should have used ‘then’, not ‘than’. Than is used for comparison, not as an adverb. When you have an ‘if…then’ type of statement, then one has to use THEN, not THAN-duh! And you say the posters here are ignorant? If you want to at least LOOK knowledgeable and sophisticated, then use proper freaking grammar! Note the CORRECT use of ‘then’… 😉
Anonymous,
For most people, the cost of the car is a very relevant consideration.
You make my point for me. Teslas aren’t about economics or practicality; they are indulgences – toys for the affluent.
And that’s fine- provided the affluent pay for their toys themselves.
Hey Eric,
Writing my above post hammered home to me what has been lost by focusing on electric luxury/sports indulgences for the wealthy as opposed to simple, light compact economy cars (cue Bastiat). If such a vehicle existed, and it was reasonably priced, it would be ideal for me. I would only need a reliable range of about 75 miles to cover about 98% of my driving needs. The few times I need to drive further or need carrying capacity, I’d have my trusty Dakota. I’d never have to worry about running out of gas, would never have to plan a trip to the gas station or look for a charger. I bet a 500e is pretty fun to drive but, it is ludicrously expensive. HTF can such a car start at over $33,000? That’s more than twice the base price of the regular 500, which eliminates any “economic” argument in favor of the 500e.
If that car was only $1500.00 or so more than the base 500, I would be sorely tempted by it (I’d probably have to sell a few of my bikes though, and be very frugal for a long while). One thing I will say for Daniel, compared to the 500e, his model 3 is a bargain.
Cheers,
Jeremy
“change your life”
More likely end your life very unpleasantly when it self ignites.
The Tesla Cult makes the Subaru Cult seem almost sane – LOL
Tesla cult members seem to live in some kind of alternate universe which has little or no resemblance to the objective reality the rest of us experience.
Hey Jason,
What’s weird to me is why more people don’t just just list their subjective preferences and wax enthusiastic on those grounds. For instance, where I live, I rarely drive more than 30 miles at a time, my shop is on my property (no commute) and I have a carport with power. If I could afford one, and could rationalize the cronyist element, a Tesla would work very well for me.
None of it’s obvious drawbacks of range and charge time would be relevant to me. In fact, keeping it fueled would be much easier than dealing with an ICE. So, if I had one, I might say things like: I love the way it looks, it’s really fun to drive, my friends are impressed, chicks dig it, etc… (I wouldn’t actually say any of those things, but you get my meaning). If queried about the drawbacks, I wouldn’t try to deny the obvious, I would just point out, “well, that’s true but not relevant to me.”
I certainly wouldn’t declare a subjective preference to be an objective fact, “it’s easily the best car to drive on the market”, or make a demonstrably false or, at the least, incomprehensible claim that it “provides far more mobility than virtually any car available”.
Why do so many Tesla fanboys insist on defending their choice in such weird ways? Why not just say, “I like it and your criticisms don’t matter to me”. Why the need to paint Musk, a typical rent-seeking cronyist douche, as a genius and visionary helping to save the world. Why deny or downplay the obvious drawbacks? Why vilify those who point out the obvious? Daniel, I recognize you did not indulge in the last tactic and I have no idea what you think of Musk.
Cheers,
Jeremy
I first noticed this a long time ago with the SUV craze. Where people would come up with nutty reasons why they needed an SUV. They couldn’t simply say they wanted it.
I think it comes from the control freakism in the USA where most everyone wants everyone else to live like they do. As a result people are always trying to justify their choices.
I don’t care if someone wants a fancy electric car. I don’t them foisted upon me or forced to subsidize them.
Hey Brent,
“Where people would come up with nutty reasons why they needed an SUV.” Hah, when I bought my Dakota I succumbed a little to this. At the time I owned an ’86 Mighty Max 4WD with a 7 foot bed and a camper shell (I wish I still had it). I did a lot of car camping in that truck with my wife and our bikes. 4WD definitely opened up areas that would have been otherwise inaccessible. But, even when camping, I “needed” 4WD maybe 10% of the time.
So, when I bought the Dakota, 2WD was just not an option. I told myself that I “needed” it but, truth is, I hated the way the 2WD trucks looked, but loved the way the 4WD looked. Still, I continued car camping and did use the 4WD quite a lot. Still, that was definitely not the most significant reason that I “had to have 4WD”. I knew this at the time and would even admit it when pressed.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Hi Brent,
I was staggered by the original questioner’s assertion that the Tesla3 enhances mobility. I sometimes feel as though I am losing my mind. Either that, or the rest of the world already has!
Under the right circumstances I could see where it could be true of a battery powered electric car. But not a TM product thanks to TM’s control freak ways. However to those blissfully unaware of Elon Musk and company’s control freakism they could have the right circumstances for that illusion.
Put me in a city of your choice… I’ll take a Model 3 and you can have any pickup of your choice… I promise you I will get to any place in the metroplex more quickly than you can in a pickup truck. That’s having greater mobility.
Daniel,
So, driving a relatively short distance in, at best, a fractionally shorter time is how you define greater mobility? That is a bizarre definition and one not likely to be shared by many people.
But, I’ll play along.
First scenario (restricted to me driving a pick-up), I need to go to the Home Depot, pick up six 4 X 8 sheets of plywood and bring them back to my house. Who do you think will win this one?
Second scenario (I can drive anything I want). I’m heading upstate for a camping trip and need some supplies. I’m driving a 2010 Corolla, I get to the Walmart Super Center less than a minute after you do, gas up, load up on supplies, and then hit the road for for a 350 mile drive to my destination. Who do you think will win this one?
Your subjective preferences are not objective facts. Why not just say, “I like it, it drives great and I think it’s cool”? Why the need to claim “it’s the best car on the market” or to deny its’ obvious drawbacks to those who do not share your preferences?
BTW, how do you hook up to a 1,000 MPH charger?
Jeremy
No city is my choice. I stay as far away from them as possible.
But hey, I’ll give it a try! Bring one out here and let me take it out in the woods to get a load of firewood. I hope the battery has good skid plates because some of the stumps are pretty tall to drive over – LOL
Ignoring the fact that not everyone wants to live in or even visit a city, you’re saying your Tesla is not subject to traffic lights and congestion? Maybe it sprouts wings and flies like Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang! I know Tesla fanbois live in a fantasy world, but that one takes the cake!
How far will a Tesla get pulling a fully-loaded trailer versus a pickup, which is a common use for the latter?
Ok Sport, I’ll bite.
Houston “metroplex” (you must be a Dallas type), which includes Harris County and all the counties touching it. You are in Tomball. You are driving to Texas City. 80-ish miles. Let’s specify the time and date, too. 1700 Central time. August.
Will you even MAKE it to Texas City with the A/C going full blast, in Houston freeway traffic, in a Tesla?
Oh yes, the pickup chosen is a 1991 GMC Syclone pickup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_Syclone
Now, who will get from Tomball to Texas City first?
Just this very morning, a Tesla- really, a nice shade of blue- was exactly as fast as my 2000 Corolla VE. Because it was behind me in traffic for three or four miles.
Granted, my metro area is only maybe 130K-135K in combined localized population here in central IL, but that would only be more an issue in a more populous metro area. I watch people race to the next red light all the time, only to roll up still at 10mph or so when it goes green and laze on past them as they accelerate from a dead stop. They still haven’t figured out average speed of travel is *not* instantaneous velocity, and that agility and visibility often help more in traffic than raw power or speed.
The old Z 71 is doing something weird, missing in partial load and it’s getting worse so I decided to try a Tesla. I have to haul off some calves and don’t want to get 700 lb animals stuck in the heat.
I figured a bumper hitch would be tricky but take some 6″X1/4″ strap inside and outside and bolt it together it should do ok when hooked to the rear axle.
You can imagine my disappointment, a free Tesla to use for a day, when I found out they’re not sold in Texas. Well, dammit.
And don’t tell me a car isn’t for hauling trailers. I’ve hauled livestock and complete households with a Biscayne, an Impala, a Pontiac Bonneville, an Olds 88, an Olds 98, a 224 Buick, at least 3 Suburbans and three El Caminos and wouldn’t have hesitated to use the old Plymouth Fury. Oh, I left out a couple Tahoes I borrowed for such.
Until you can put a bumper hitch on an EV and haul livestock or whatever the hell you want, don’t even compare it to IC cars.
And wanta talk about speedy? Try pulling an old style Uhaul tandem axle, 14′ enclosed trailer loaded down at 120mph on cruise like the old 98 would do…..several times. Probably the most amazing thing about that was the tires not blowing on the trailers. And it could be done in the heat or freezing cold and do it for 2800 miles with only those 5 minute stops for gas that mostly turned into 15 minutes because of women.
Hey, I don’t wanna suggest it might be a good woman’s car cause then somebody would go off the deep end just suggesting such, but I know it wouldn’t work for women since they have “extended” stops when you stop for fuel and to tell them the heater or a/c had to be turned off when you were charging……well, I don’t want to be That guy. I sure wouldn’t want to be the window guy at the slow fast food place either. Watching that gauge dropping like a rock in 100 degree heat, the women would be having a fit since “they’re in a hurry”. BTDT.
Correction, a 225 Buick and 110 degree heat and if it’s like last year, that is 112-115 every day for month after month.
It’s supposed to be cooler in Texas this year(and wetter). I hope to hell they’re right on both counts.
“I sometimes feel as though I am losing my mind. Either that, or the rest of the world already has!”
Spoken like a true anti-hero. Sounds perfect in either the voice of Eastwood or Nicholson…
“Why do so many Tesla fanboys insist on defending their choice in such weird ways?”
The same reason any fanboy does, they are trying to convince themselves, not you. It is a clear sign of self-delusion and desperate rationalization in denial of reality.
Daniel,
If the Tesla 3 is “easily the best car to drive on the market”, what is the second best?
Hard to say… The Model S and X are both great cars, but too costly and too large. Once the Model Y launches, that will likely be the best car to drive. And the Model 3 will subsequently take the 2nd position. Like I said… Go test drive the Model 3 and I think you would also agree with me that it’s the best car on the market.
Daniel,
There’s no such thing as “the best car on the market”. There are simply cars that best meet a particular person’s subjective preferences.
Also, best case 240 mile range is achieved with a slow charger. Fast chargers only deliver 80% of that. This coupled with the fact that actual range is often significantly less than best case range, makes your claim that “it provides far more mobility than virtually any car available” truly bizarre. What on earth do you mean by that?
Jeremy
Well I’m assuming a 240 mile range on the $35,000 base Model 3, and not charging below 20% to preserve the battery life. So thats 192 miles of range under those restraints. b/c of air conditioning and additional energy use, I cut off 20% of the range to get an actual range of 153.6 miles. With V3 Superchargers these cars are charging at 1,000 MPH.
“With V3 Superchargers these cars are charging at 1,000 MPH”
Please explain what MPH stands for.
I recall reading somewhere it’s a measure of the range in miles you can expect per hour of charging time. (No doubt under ideal conditions determined by Tesla that are rarely if ever found in the real world.)
That’s a hell of a lot of electricity to transfer in a short period of time, requiring liquid-cooled cables. One has to wonder how being subject to frequent fast charging is going to affect battery life.
The fundamental problem with today’s electric cars is that lithium-ion batteries are just barely adequate to make them palatable to a small segment of the population. This will change in time as new mobile sources of electricity are developed but we are certainly not there yet in terms of vehicles accessible to and desirable to the “smallfolk”.
Thanks.
iirc 3kwh/mile for a Tesla. So 3000kwh charge in an hour?
So a charger with the same feed line and amp rating of a open pit mine shovel.
Uh-huh.
LOL.
Daniel,
I can drive an 707 horsepower 12 MPG Hellcat farther than 150 miles – with the AC on and a lot faster and harder than you drive your Tesla3. And refuel the Charger to full in less than 5 minutes while you are stuck for a minimum of 30-45 minutes to recover a partial charge.
What is the advantage? I mean, functionally – and practically? Also, economically?
A current V6 Camry is as quick as your Tesla, goes twice as far – and takes a fraction of the time to refuel – and costs less to buy. It has a service life – no major repairs likely – of 15-plus years. Your Tesla will almost certainly need an extremely expensive battery long before the Camry needs more than routine maintenance.
It’s a larger/much roomier car, too.
Tell me again what makes your Tesla “better”?
Jeremy, the “best car” for me would be a 96 anniversary model Roadmaster Wagon. I saw one recently, in fairly rough shape but still running. I’m trying to figure out what I could offer the people in exchange since they obviously need it but I don’t need to give them a great deal of money since it has to be rebuilt, repainted, etc.
If I had a non-running model, I considered an LS conversion….but then got to thinking of the original engine that got 30 mpg and lasted forever. Oh well, there’s nothing wrong with old school. Hell, I am old school and while I can’t “run with the boys” I can often outsmart them and that’s just as good. Even if I can’t outrun them or outsmart them, i bet I can get there a little later with 0 speeding tickets.
And just so you know, I often run 79, done it for years and years and in big rigs and knowing there’s radar ahead I just leave it on cruise. Never had one so much as move when I blew by. I know, I know, I’m running on borrowed time. Hell, I’ve been running on borrowed time for 55 years at the least.
An old friend and I were recently speaking of dodging bullets. We both allowed we’d been very lucky. Just some good ol boys, never meanin no harm. Beats all you never saw been in trouble with the law since the day we was born. Straightnin the curves, flattenin the hills, the mountain might get us some day but the law never will.
Me and him, not he and I, used to race everywhere we went. We went through lots of tires, lots of fuel(farm use) and a few fences. He was always burning valves(Ford 6 on propane)and I was always burning the inside tire on a curve. That old Blue Flame 6 was indestructible. Nothing more fun than driving an old slow pickup fast.
That would be one sweet sleeper! The laqst full-sized Buick wagon I had was my ’86 Estate Wagon that I built a ’77 Olds 403 for. That was the one that earned me the “no Speed Limit” speeding ticket in Montana in ’97, lol!
Reminds me of a friend who built a custom class 8 sleeper truck for hauling households. He built it from a wrecked conventional Freightliner and grafted an old 50′-60’s rv onto the cab. Airbagged the entire cab/rv part and did such a good job he got the Truck of the Year award for his innovative design and construction.
He was on his maiden run in it heading somewhere in the NW, doing 90 on the interstate in Montana when a red Chevy pickup got right on his ass, something that drives a trucker to distraction.
So this guy really puts his foot into(well into triple digits truck)and gets up to 95, pickup still on his ass. So he gets with some other truckers on the radio and they block the pickup so he swiped it off pulling back hard into the front of another rig. He’s pulling the other rig along and now they’re doing over 100 when all of a sudden right lights started flashing in that red pickup. It was Montana state patrol and they pulled him over. it was one of those things they knew he was just responding to their goading but it worked and he got a big ticket.
He was exCIA so he knew all the bs moves they would have pulled but he just STFU and gave them the evil eye. They just wrote him the ticket, practically laughing as they did so. Good ol Montana where there really was no speed limit back then, just the ossifers words he was driving too fast.
I got it. He got it. Those Texas tags just scream “I need a ticket” nearly everywhere you go outside of Tx. It’s simply a state version of inferior complex.
it’s a known fact Texas truckers are just rich guys who want to work themselves to death and give other states some of their evil lucre.
Hey Eight,
The best vehicle for me was my ’86 Mighty Max, unfortunately I didn’t realize it at the time. I wish I had fixed/upgraded it. Oh well, I won’t make the same mistake again, I plan to keep my Dakota going until they pry it from my hands.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Jeremy, I had a brief but high mileage round with a small Mitsu pickup. It was underpowered as hell but seemed indestructible as long as you knew to jump the starter manually when it wouldn’t start with the key. I hauled high value freight that didn’t weigh a lot except for the many bags of bank notes.
The passenger side window on the camper shell on it caught so much wind when it was sideways to it that I got spun around doing 60 on packed snow on I 20 . Never had anything swap ends that fast but I lost almost no speed so the guy in the cabover truck I was looking eye to eye with had the good sense to save me and slow down. Barditch was so deep in snow I turned into it full lock doing about 40 and broke through it onto the access road. 20 minutes later, on much cleaner pavement I made that same pass on that same truck. I swear he slowed down. I don’t blame him. He probably stopped and ate breakfast to avoid seeing me again. Never got pushed so hard on a job in my life. Even Southwest Airlines people knew to wait to the bitter end before heading to the plane with freight cause i’d sometimes get there just after they’d left. I did 80 in town commonly in Midland/Odessa just to make the flight. Banks think when you get their goods it should be at the airport in a minute and on the next flight…..a-holes.
“That’s hard to say…”
In other words, you don’t know.
Tesla models aside, if you don’t know what the second best car is, how do you know what is first?
Being a decently good electrician I don’t remember what MPH stands for as to electrical charging.
Funny thing about noisy, vibrating engines, the wife’s Cutlass is a 95 model. You can’t feel the engine running nor hear it. I’ve tried to start it several times when it was running. My 5.3 Chevy engine is another one I can’t hear nor feel…..normally. Yes, in 4WD and in deep mud I get the idea of it probably making noise but there’s a lot of stuff at work making noise such a big BF Goodrich TA All Terrain 02 tires with tread on the sidewalls…although to be honest, they don’t sing or make any noise I can hear on the road. They do squeal very loudly when you floor it on pavement and sling gravel when doing same on unimproved roads.
Sure wish I had a Tesla today since I’ve got to haul cat food, dog food and a pallet of Sackrete. By the looks of radar, I’ll have to use 4WD just to get to the pavement. I guess a Tesla really would be the ticket.
Then I think of me, getting run over from behind and poor Turd Burglestein getting run over from behind. I’d bet we both didn’t see it coming(I didn’t although I had been watching but the guy caught me after topping a hill at high speed just as I looked to the front when traffic began to move). I doubt Turd would have survived the sort of impact he received and would have roasted alive in a Tesla….but don’t let that aspect throw you off. Nothing like driving a bomb….and not “da bomb”. And please, someone, explain to this old man what MPH has to do with electrical charging.
Hey 8, I think I got it. 1,000 MPH means you can drive 1,000 miles on one hour of battery life……wait…..that’s still travelling 1,000 miles-per-hour any way you cut it…hmmmmmm, maybe it’s like Steven Wright once said, “yeah, but I wasn’t going to be out that long”! You know, 250 miles-per-quarter-hour, lol! Man those electric motors are are miracle eh? Why don’t we just put one of those in the trunk of a Festiva, THAT would solve the world’s energy problems, by God!
gtc, I loved that Steven Wright skit and hadn’t thought of it in a long time although it’s a classic.
The wife didn’t want to go anywhere today. I guess she ordered a Tesla so we’d have it tomorrow. The guy at Home Despot is going to have a time stacking that Sackrete in there. I won’t even try it. Oh wait, “the guy” at HD is gonna be me. Oh well, I’ll just redneck it and use a pickup…..”truck?”.
You knew his answer was going to be another Tesla model eh? I’m beginning to see a pattern here, lolol!