What follows began as a reader question about electric cars and their “low maintenance.” I replied to this reader here. She replied to me, below. Since the topic is of general interest, I decided to give it the Treatment, in the manner of fungicide.
First, Samantha, who writes:
I have an engineering degree and you don’t fool me for one second. The engine (in an IC car) is by far the most expensive part of the car. In electric and hydrogen cars, they’re maintenance free. You’re selling horses in the dawn of the age of the motor car.
I’m not selling anything, Samantha. Nor trying to “fool” anyone.
I never claimed the engine in an IC car isn’t “by far the most expensive” part of it. Do you know what a straw man argument is? I did state that in an electric car the battery is extremely expensive.
Which is inarguably true.
I also pointed out – in re your original question – that electric cars are not (as you claimed) lower maintenance than IC cars. Maybe the electric motor is – but that is only one part of the EV. Aside from the motor, EVs have many of the same maintenance issues (e.g., wear and tear on brakes ands tires, suspension components as well as the cooling/heating system for the battery, which isn’t easy for the average person to deal with; in some cases, the EV’s body must be lifted off the chassis to access these systems, etc).
You’re right that an EV doesn’t need oil and air filter changes and occasional tuneups but these are very infrequent in a modern IC car – which you ought to know since you’re an engineer – and such regular maintenance is generally inexpensive, while the EV itself is extremely expensive.
For example, the Nissan Leaf – which is currently the lowest-priced EV available – stickers for $30,000. This is for the version with the low-capacity battery and a 150 mile “best case” range.
This is twice the cost of an IC economy car that’s otherwise similar in terms of size and so on, such as Nissan’s Versa – which stickers for about $15k (and can travel 300-plus miles on a tank).
How many oil and filter changes does that $15k difference pay for? Well, let’s do some math – which engineers are good at. Let’s say an oil change costs $50 and let’s posit that the oil needs to be changed once every 5,000 miles. Let’s call it twice a year, so $100 annually.
The math does not look good…
But let’s try to make it better – for the EV. Let’s quintuple the cost of annual maintenance for the IC car to $500 – which is a gross exaggeration.
It still looks pretty bad… for the EV. Ten years of $500 annual maintenance runs to $5,000 so you’re still $10k in the hole – if you bought the Leaf.
But wait there’s more . . . math, that is!
In addition to the expense of the EV itself, there is the additional expense (several thousand dollars) of replacing the battery – which must be replaced at some point due to inevitable degradation of charge capacity (engineers ought to know about this) as opposed to expensive IC components such as an engine, which usually never have to be replaced over a much longer useful service life (at least 15-20 years and longer).
Let’s not forget the cost of a “fast” charger” in your home. Add another $800-$1,000 to the cost of ownership. Oh, and you’ll also be paying more in property taxes – based on the purchase price/retail value of the car.
And insurance – based on the much higher replacement cost of the EV.
If your fundamental point is that EVs are cheaper because the motor doesn’t need maintenance, you’re simply wrong. EVs do not cost less to maintain – or rather, to own – once you factor in the cost of everything – as opposed to just the battery.
The bottom line is, you spend more. A great deal more. 
And your premise that EVs are today’s equivalent of IC cars replacing horses and buggies is silly because unlike the cars of 100 years ago, EVs today are much more expensive and far less convenient than IC cars. One hundred years ago, it wasn’t necessary to pass laws mandating that Model Ts be manufactured, nor subsidize their purchase. They were bought freely because they were superior – functionally and economically – to the horse and buggy and to the electric cars of 100 years ago!
Today, EVs are being forced onto the market via mandates and subsidies. They have to be forced onto the market. Because there is no real (significant) market for them.
Precisely because their overall costs are so much higher and their limitations so much greater.
And they ask me why I drink . . .
. . .
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“I have an engineering degree and you don’t fool me for one second. The engine (in an IC car) is by far the most expensive part of the car. In electric and hydrogen cars, they’re maintenance free.”
There are plenty of people out there with “engineering degrees” who struggle to open the hood and check their fluids; let alone change out spark plugs. Oh, but don’t worry! Electric cars are “maintenance-free”. As in, disposable! So when that big ‘ol battery of yours conks out in like 5 years, you get to “buy” a brand new car at 5x the cost of the first one. What a bargain!
“You’re selling horses in the dawn of the age of the motor car.”
You’re right! I always see mile-long lines at the Tesla dealer every single day. People are trampling over one another for these things. Oh wait, they’re not? Well, I’m sure they’ll show up tomorrow. Oh, they’re still not there? Hmm…that’s strange. I thought EV’s were supposed to be “the future”. I mean, it’s not like the government would ever subsidize inferior technology and then use guns to “encourage” people to buy and/or pay for development of said technology. That’s preposterous!
Seriously though, y’all can take your “greenie-mobiles” and shove ’em up your asses!
When did an engineering degree become a requirement to succeed when someone with a proper understanding of the technology in question is doing the job?
I once worked at Vir James, P.C., one of the prominent engineering firms for broadcasting. I didn’t have a degree, but it took Vir about a minute to explain how to use a planimeter, which precluded the need for calculus. Higher math isn’t required for most of what an “engineer” does.
I have never worked for a radio station owner that knew enough to operate or repair anything in his/her station. They are best at laying off the engineer just before s/he becomes most needed, because s/he has been trying to find something to do in a station where they have fixed everything that the owner would buy parts to. Fortunately for me, I could do anything in a radio station except play by play sports and I “took” a number of games in the studio when no one else could be found to get the job done.
Since there is a small leak in the rear main seal on the engine of my van, with the advent of full synthetic oil, I just wait until the oil level gets low enough to bother to add a quart. Depending on what the oil looks like, I might change the oil filter myself, and top up the oil. 300,000 miles never looked so good on any previous vehicle.
I doubt that the deal killer for full EVs will be solved in my lifetime, charging the battery.
Beyond that, I have yet to see a fully electric half ton cargo van. If I can’t sleep in it, I’m not going to buy it.
Bill, get ya some of this here stuff: AT-205 Re-Seal
https://www.amazon.com/ATP-AT-205-Re-Seal-Stops-Bottle/dp/B000NVW1LM/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=AT-205+reseal&qid=1583190656&sr=8-2
It really works! I currently have it in one of my trucks, and in the hydro on one of my mowers. Works especially well on rear-mains! (Unless the seal is cracked or mangled or something)
Nunzio, it is probably similar to the additives added to the high mileage full synthetic that I switched to when it appeared on the market. That slowed it down by 75%. I don’t know why the seal leaks, but it has since I got the van 10 years ago. The front main on the transmission leaks as well, but much slower. So slow, in fact, that I seldom need to add any ATF. Both leaks will be resolved in time because my plan is to replace the engine and transmission when they fail. Judging by the way they act, the transmission will go first and save me from having to do them both at the same time.
Von, would be intursting to see if you were to use regular erl instead of synthetic, and the AT-205, if the leak in the rear main wouldn’t stop completely (Synthetics always tend to exacerbate leaks…which maybe is why they put those additives?).
I would HAVE to try that, just out of curiosity to see- but from what ya say, I bet it would.
You can also put the AT-205 in the tranny- if it’s leakimng so little, it’d definitely stop it- but like ya say, sounds like you might have some other stuff going on with that anyway.
Of all the things that could leak…it’s GOTTA be the two things that are the hardest to get at!!
Eric…if your dear Samantha wants to practice logical fallacies and require that everyone defer to her authority then let us be democratic about it shall we. I religiously read your columns via Lewrockwell.com and can’t remember anything I’ve disagreed with you on. Several years ago I began to wonder if I should buy an EV after noticing increased hype in the media and feeling a sense of FOMO. I have taught my children that many are out to “pick their pockets and put them in chains” and one way they do so is to prey on emotion – FOMO being a prime motivator. Sensing this, I put aside the warm fuzzy feeling that EVs induce and investigated EVs in detail. I looked at EVs vs. ICVs considering original purchase AND life ownership costs AND environmental costs AND human costs. And guess what…I DID NOT buy an EV. This was the inevitable outcome when emotion is replaced with logic and rigor – something my nature and training requirs that I apply. You see I’m a mechanical engineer per the state of WV (WVU) and a licensed professional engineer per the state of VA. I have worked in nuclear power as a construction engineer, a maintenance engineer, and now work as a nuclear design engineer. In a past life I was a project engineer in food manufacturing where I became proficient at project cost accounting. I’m also a certified ag mechanic per the state of WV. I’ve overhauled engines and rebuilt the transmissions of cars, trucks, and tractors. I’m proficient at stick, tig, mig, and oxy-acetylene welding. I can machine items using power and hand tools, wire buildings and process controls, place concrete, survey, plumb residential/commercial buildings, and troubleshoot integrated circuits. And I learned to do all of the hands-on stuff before I learned to solve differential equations. So my BS meter is very sensitive and I call BS on EVs and their puritanical supporters. I’d advise Samantha the engineer to “get her hands dirty” and deeply investigate the details.
“One hundred years ago, it wasn’t necessary to pass laws mandating that Model Ts be manufactured, nor subsidize their purchase. They were bought freely because they were superior”
Really, nothing more needs to be said than this. If EVs are superior than they don’t need any sort of government subsidy.
When and if someone comes up with a truly viable replacement for the ICE, I am sure it will be in great demand. Perhaps many of us are not married to our ICE vehicles, but as of now they generally are the most efficient, or at least were before the control freaks took over, means of transportation. Whereas EV’s are strictly political and agenda based options that are returning us to the stone age. They are mostly impractical and expensive. And I for one, do not like wasting money on any vehicle that loses virtually all its value over time. Automobiles, like houses, boats, RV’s and other big ticket items, tend to become sinkholes for your money, especially when you have to borrow up front and as they age. Another great article, Eric.
Replacing IC engines with EVs means that instead of burning fossil fuels in individual vehicles, fossil fuels are burned at central power stations for about two-thirds of US power generation.
Take a similar trade-off: you can burn natural gas, propane, fuel oil or wood to heat your home … or you can go all-electric and heat your abode with power that comes through wires.
Twenty-five percent of US homes are all-electric, says the EIA. But all-electric homes are far more popular in the South, where winter heating needs are modest. In the snow belt, not many homeowners want to shoulder the cost of electric space heating. It also has a nasty habit of clicking off when ice and falling tree limbs take down aerial power wires.
The price of electric power is politically regulated. In “progressive” states such as California, with their myriad mandates for renewable power (thanks, Tom $teyer!), the cost per kWhr is astronomical compared to what deplorables pay in flyover states. A Marin County progressive Democrat who charges her EV late at night on a special plan still pays more per kWhr than I do for peak daytime power in a neighboring state (which I will refrain from naming, for fear of attracting a larger locust swarm of fleeing Californicators).
Fundamentally, burning fossil fuels to generate heat and transport oneself confers independence, a topic dear to the heart of our host Eric. Whereas being tied to the grid, paying politically-dictated, ever-rising tariffs, makes citizens into helpless dependents of their socialist masters, who have other plans for their captive serfs.
Y’all remember Peak Oil? As I type, crude oil is $45.50 a barrel, pump prices just dropped by a dime, and OPEC is desperately scheming to restrict production to ward off another plunge into the twenties per barrel, as in early 2016.
Happy motoring, comrades!
Hi Eric,
I pretty well agree with all the points you make with the “engineer”. The one advantage that EVs have over ICs is a reduced carbon footprint, even after taken into account the total upstream and downstream parts of the CO2 footprint. However unlike you and most of your followers I actually believe the international body of science and its explanation of the rapid climate change we’re beginning to experience in many parts of the world, most notably in arctic and subarctic regions, due to increasing global atmospheric CO2 from burning fossil fuel. On the other hand I have no intention to stop driving IC vehicles (until forced to) for all the reasons you explain. Why, because the entire transportation sector (of which private vehicles are a miniscule percentage) contributes only 14% to global CO2 emissions.The largest contribution (25%) is from electrical powerv and heat generation. Agriculture, Forestry and Land Use are a close third at 24%. So even if the entire world population of private vehicles were to switch to EVs it would do essentially nothing to reduce CO2 emissions. And so until humanity comes up with a new energy paradigm, one in which planes, ships, trains, and electric power stations are no longer dependant on fossil fuels to run, I’m sticking with my gas-powered vehicles.
Hi Steve,
Leaving aside for the moment whether the “climate” is in “crisis” because of man-produced C02, it is not the case that EVs have a smaller “carbon footprint” than IC cars.
At least, not relative to IC economy cars vs. luxury-sport EVs, which is almost all of them (they’ve had to tout power/performance to get people’s minds off the high cost and functional gimps).
How much “carbon” is produced to make a 1,000 pound Tesla3 battery pack? How much carbon is emitted to power a 1,000 lb. battery pack that is probably two or three times as large as necessary for basic A to B driving?
EVs are very wasteful – and waste products are produced in commensurate quantity.
Back to the “climate crisis.” If such a thing were real rather than a confection EVs such as Teslas and Rivians would be curb stomped for the same reason that people aren’t allowed to pour used motor oil down storm sewers.
Hi Eric,
You’re quite possibly right about the comparative carbon footprints of ICE vehicles vs EVs taking into account ALL the upstream and downstream carbon. And I take your point about your question if the “climate crisis” was real… I believe it is real. But why the powers-at-be are blaming private IC car owners I don’t understand it. Maybe it’s because cars are the most visible entity, clogging up cities, etc, is the underlying reason people have latched on to the idea that private gas-powered cars are the main culprit and if we did away with them all the problems regarding climate change would be solved. If only it were that simple.
Hi Eric,
To add, I’ll be the first to admit that in continuing to use gas-powered tools and vehicles I’m part of the problem. But only an infinitismal part. And until such a time comes that a new economcally viable energy source is discovered to replace fossil fuels (highly unlikel’y IMO), I’ll keep driving/riding my ICE vehicles since it will hardly make a difference in reducing atmospheric CO2 (less than 6% actually) if every last gas-powered private vehicle was scrapped and we all got EVs. Personally I think the human race is pretty well fucked when it comes down to finding a realistic solution.
***”I’ll be the first to admit that in continuing to use gas-powered tools and vehicles I’m part of the problem.”***
There’s a problem?
Steve, just in case you’re not aware of what a fraud thius “climate change” nonsense is. just consider this:
China and India are exempt from the restrictions set forth in the official climate-change creeds, such as those mandated by the Paris Agreement, while countries in North America and Europe are subject to them, AND must in-fact pay what are essentially fines for producing and consuming even very clean energy; fines whose proceeds go to…..places like China and India, which among the world’s biggest polluters.
This is nothing more than a transfer-of-wealth scheme designed to destroy Capitalism and shift the balance of economic power- and some of it’s architects have even admitted as much (I believe that others here, such as Jeremy, can provide links with proof of that).
In the end, it takes the same amount of energy to propel a 4000 lb. vehicle down the road whether that vehicle is powered by an onboard IC engine or an electric motor which is powered bhy stored energy which has been produced somewhere else. The only difference between the two is where the energy is produced.
Back in the 70’s and early 80’s we had vehicles which were truly efficient- simple rear-wheel-drive Jap cars that weighed 2000 lbs and got 40 or more MPG, which were cheap to buy and required a minimum of resources to produce and maintain- but the government- the very one which dictates that we drive fuel-efficient vehicles, and which has invented the “global warming” BS, has made it illegal to produce such vehicles.
These two scenarios alone- that “clean” nations must subsidize nations which heavily pollute and which are under no constraints to curtail their economic activities; and the fact that the very gov’t which preaches efficiency while making it so that cars must be festooned with so much garbage that they end up weighing 4000 lbs while offering less carrying capacity than the 2000 lb cars of yore (Or push EVs which are inherently heavy because of their 1000 lb. batteries) should illustrate the gross contradictions in the official narratives to enable onbe to clearly see what is being foisted upon us makes absolutely no sense as far as fighting the supposed boogeyman, even if one believes that boogeyman to be real (I suppose next, they’ll be saying that my 10 MPG V-10 Excursionb has WMDs! 🙂 )
Additionally, one erupting volcano pumps more CO2 into the air than all the automobiles have done since the IC engine was invented. One of the reason the CO2 rate is increasing is due to the MULTIPLE occurrences of erupting volcanos. For example, the one in Indonesia, Mount Merapi, erupted without warning early on Tuesday for the second time in a month! F this thinking man produced CO2 is what is driving climate.
Hi Steve,
I have the answer for you – and it’s ugly. The reason for the EV push is to constrain the mobility of the average person with the ultimate aim of eliminating privately owned (and controlled) vehicles for the masses (us).
Jeez Eric that sounds like the mother of all conspiracies. I find it hard to believe their ultimate agenda is to eliminate privately owned and controlled vehicles for the masses. And who exactly are these people? To think that power elites and governments around the world are all in on this hidden agenda is crazy talk. If their presumed purpose is to restrict the mobility of the masses and control where and when people are permitted to travel, how would eliminating IC vehicles achieve that? People have been migrating long before the invention of the automobile, and continue to do so to this day. Gasoline could easily be rationed or electricity cut off if the goal was to limit or control mobility. What I think has happened is this: since cars are so highly visible and common, and the ICE ones do emit CO2, they’ve become a scapegoat for the “save the world” crowd. As more and more people jumped on the green bandwagon, before you know it ICE cars became the enemy to hate. The Elons of the world see this as a great opportunity to make a lot of money, and they do. As others have noted (thanks Jeremy), the reality is that EVs will do virtually nothing to reduce atmospheric CO2. Check out this pie diagram: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-05/global_emissions_sector_2015.png
Assuming CO2 is the culprit, the Earth’s climate will continue to get warmer, permafrost will continue to thaw, ice caps will continue to recede, sea level will continue to rise, and people will continue to migrate.
I doubt the human species will be around in another hundred years.
Is earth’s climate getting warmer? Probably not though looking at the last couple hundred years coming out of the little ice age it has warmed.
Is permafrost thawing? Don’t know- haven’t heard that claim. I live in a northern climate and I see winters getting longer and colder, so my observation would be that it’s not likely.
Are ice caps receding? Well the Ross ice shelf did, because there is active volcanism under it, else NO. Likewise, glaciers are growing and shrinking- hopefully they do shrink as that indicates a warmer healthier climate.
Are sea levels rising? Yes, by tiny amounts. Why, and is it important are the relevant questions.
The human species will be around in 100 years -barring an asteroid strike, supervolcano, or solar nova. You’ll note that those are natural events. Even a full nuclear exchange wouldn’t wipe out the human race- though it would make radical changes in human society and drop the population substantially. You need to age a bit and observe the world around you- the lies and half truths you’ve been fed will become apparent.
Steve,
I think before one can be open to the existence of a conspiracy or nefarious motives, one must first recognize that there is something wrong with the popular narrative being proffered.
For instance: Even if we were to accept that man-made climate change were true, and that CO2 is somehow bad, how does it make any sense whatsoever to replace clean efficient ICE cars with EVs which are just as heavy, and require just as much energy to propel- with the only difference being that that the emissions produced by fueling EVs are produced remotely? [And in-fact, as has already been pointed out by Jeremy, EVs actually produce MORE of the very things which the overlords claim to be fighting]
One must therefore conclude that either the politicians, scientists and activists who are pushing EVs are extremely stupid (In which case, then why should we believe their climate-change BS?), or that we are being lied to.
If we are being lied to, why? What could be a possible motive for pushing such a lie, and on a worldwide scale no-less?
Did they really believe Saddam had WMDs?
Did paper passports really survive the inferno which vaporized steel, which was “caused by some third-worlders with box- cutters who took a few lessons in a Cessna”?
Did Syria gas the children?
Go back through history, and we see the same tactics employed over and over again…
Remember “The Jews burnt the Reichstagg building in Germany”?
-and invariably, people just keep falling for the same tactics, over and over again- despite the fact that these tactics have been employed by politicians from Ancient Greece down to this very day- It’s always the same people telling the same lies…..
“Read my lips, no new taxes”
“Your Socialist Security number will never be used as an identifier”
“Gun registration will never be used for the purpose of confiscating guns”
“The check is in the mail” (But you’re not allowed to use that one when it comes to the IRS, the DMV, the local court or any other facet of Uncle’s net of control)
Hi Steve,
“You’re quite possibly right about the comparative carbon footprints of ICE vehicles vs EVs taking into account ALL the upstream and downstream carbon”.
It depends on the source of the power. If it is derived from fossil fuels, EV’s produce a larger carbon footprint than ICE’s. China and the US are heavily dependent on coal and have over half of the EV’s in the world. Because of this EV’s produce more CO2 than ICE’s worldwide. Only nuclear can provide the energy needs of EV’s, and produce a smaller carbon footprint, but nuclear is probably off the table.
If CO2 is a problem (it probably isn’t) then pursuing an EV future is insane. Doing so would drastically increase CO2 emissions compared to whatever combination of ICE’s and hybrids that emerges naturally in the market.
I’ve stated this a few times but it is very important. The infrastructure necessary to support even a small increase in EV usage DOES NOT EXIST. If tomorrow, even 10% of the cars on the road suddenly became EV’s the grid would crash. Massive changes to the infrastructure are necessary, at the production end and consumption end, to support an EV future. “Renewables” are a pipe dream. There is no way the energy needs can be met with wind, solar or hydro-electric. Honest greens understand this but we’re still told that the ludicrous fantasy pf a “renewable” energy future sufficient to power our desires, is realistic, it is not.
To my knowledge, none of the studies claiming EV’s are greener than ICE’s consider the carbon footprint of the changes to the infrastructure required if “we adopt” EV’s. This is absurd, and borderline fraudulent. Consider what would be required.
– Massive increase in production capacity that can only be met by coal, natural gas or nuclear.
– A new, and redundant, nationwide network of fast charging stations. This network already exists for ICE’s and is thus mostly a sunk cost, environmentally and economically.
– Significant changes to residential power to support the necessary equipment for BEV’s (a plug in hybrid like the Chevy Volt does not need additional equipment).
– A network of urban charging stations and wired, off street parking to deal with the obvious incompatibility of city dwelling (you know, multi level apartments) and EV’s.
If the power elite class were genuinely concerned about the planet, they would not be pushing EV’s and all the misinformation required to peddle the lie that they are greener. As Eric states, they’re real agenda is not what they say, and it’s ugly.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Friend, you can BELIEVE all you want, but actual science is not based on belief or consensus. One counter example (by definition) will upset centuries of orthodox belief/theory/consensus.
Carbon dioxide makes up currently about 400 parts per million of our atmosphere. It has no measurable effect on the temperature of the globe, or on the PH of the oceans. It is not a greenhouse gas in increasing concentrations, unlike water vapor exempli gratia. CO2 level is most likely a lagging indicator of changing climate which is driven almost exclusively by our sun with galactic/universe components of energy having some effect.
400ppm is on the low side for a healthy living earth ecosystem- we likely need to release more CO2. Unfortunately human beings are simply not a big enough force on this planet to accomplish that. Do we want to wantonly pollute our environment? Nobody does. But beyond a fairly rudimentary level you are wasting valuable resources trying to clean up the naturally occurring “dirtiness” of our environment.
Steve,
You are being bamboozled by the climate hucksters. Their claims do not hold up under close examination, instead what quickly becomes evident is a tissue of lies. Even the “scientific consensus” they like to throw around is a distortion if not an outright lie, as is their claim that recent years are the hottest on record. Lie on top of lies on top of lies, ad nauseum. Unlike what the politicians and the media tell you, a significant number of legitimate scientists are very skeptical.
What it is really about is money, power, and control. That’s what a large part of the environmental movement has always been about since it started. (Of course there are legitimate environmental concerns. CO2 is not one of them.)
People need to get the fuzzballs out of their heads, that have been placed there by years of implacable indoctrination, to understand what is really going on. When it comes to “climate science” here is a good place to start:
https://realclimatescience.com
****”Even the “scientific consensus” they like to throw around is a distortion if not an outright lie, as is their claim that recent years are the hottest on record. Lie on top of lies on top of lies, ad nauseum. Unlike what the politicians and the media tell you, a significant number of legitimate scientists are very skeptical.”*****
Well-said, Jason! The only scientists who ever initially came up with this “climate change” BS, were the usual suspects who make their living by sucking the government teat. Just like the past 40 years of “diet science” which is now down the drain- the talking heads of academia and government institutions are paid to be on the same page as all of their fellow blood-sucking prophets- and those who dissent are not allowed to play- so one either builds upon the false foundation that has been laid….or is ignored and ridiculed, and not funded nor employable.
This is exactly what happened with diet “science”- and all other branches of science, and indeed is inevitable when government controls virtually all edumacation, research, and funding of development. It establishes a monopoly; a “Thus saith the god of State”- and becomes nothing more than propaganda and rhetoric, used to justify whatever ends those in power seek to push in order to justify their evil deeds as if they are doing something good, when in-fact they are committing the most heinous crimes.
The contradictions in their narratives are ubiquitous and blatant, but few seem to notice, because their acceptance is normalized through media, academia and government, and we are made to believe that the official dictum is “what everyone believes, and only crazy white supremacist UFO-abductee child-molesters would think any different”.
(It’s funny, but when ya give up TV/modern movies, this stuff becomes so glaringly obvious the minute you see it, that you wonder how it is that everyone erlse can be so mesmerized by it so easily)
(It’s funny, but when ya give up TV/modern movies, this stuff becomes so glaringly obvious the minute you see it, that you wonder how it is that everyone erlse can be so mesmerized by it so easily)
That’s why it’s called programming.
This is a particularly good article on EVs.
But what I cannot figger out is, it an article about how dumb EVs are, or how dumb the woman engineer is ?
Like the power loss in electric transmission lines, society is being robbed of productivity, efficiency and family propagation by the skull fuck of female engineers. The STEM programs in college are being feminized to the point of useless graduates.
Mother Nature keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other…
2005 VW Passat TDI
1988 Citroën 2CV6
Eric, another thing this young “lady” forgot in her misplaced analogy about cars replacing the horse (and buggy, or wagon)…the trouble with horses and other useful livestock for drayage is that the beasts must be maintained whether you employ them…or NOT. Horses and oxen must be fed, groomed, and, if not worked daily, EXERCISED (all things using up considerable effort, another reason that mechanization alone would have rendered slavery cost-ineffective had a victorious Confederate States of America continued on, with the “peculiar institution” intact). Never mind that there’s the considered problem of “emission control”. Although on any farm the handling of cow and horse manure was a long-understood application of “recycling” well-before the libtards got “woke” about it. Still, can you imagine how the pleasantness, let alone overall health of Americans improved once the streets of cities and towns weren’t choked with horseshit?
This isn’t to say that animal power, even in the 20th century, wasn’t useful. Hell, the Third Reich’s Operation “Barbarossa” would have been impossible w/o some 400,000 HORSES in the Heer’s inventory, for no other reason that even in eastern Poland, well alone the Soviet Union, there were damned few PAVED roads. And when those rains get going, NOTHING moves in that mud, which there’s even a Russian word for it, “Raputitsia”! Even the vaunted panzers would get stuck, and often required, when their vehicles couldn’t free them from the mud w/o getting stuck themselves, would be retrieved thanks to large teams of horses. Every panzer regiment on the Eastern Front had a cavalry battalion for a reason. Also, during those awful Russian winters, horses proved a source of meat for the troops. This, of course, posed its own problems…for example, some 12,000 Germans were trapped in the Russian city of Kholm in January 1942 (about halfway on a line between Moscow and St. Petersburg). After about three months of being surrounded, the Sixteenth Army had pushed to within ten km of the town, and had artillery position on a hill to cover their evacuation, which still could not proceed…because they’d eaten all their horses! Due to this problem, a further attack was made, which opened up a corridor to Kholm…which the Germans held for two more years.
Undoubtedly your young lady friend was raised in the city and has NO concept of where vegetables, grains, and meats come from. Likewise, although she might have gone to school and obtained her purported engineering degree under some “STEM” program, which is yet another “affirmative action” program to push aside better-qualified students on the basis that we “must” have more engineers in their respective fields with a “Va-Jay-Jay”. Yet, I doubt that any of these kids, male, female, queer, trans, or whatever they can think of, ever twisted wrenches and learned the basics of doing basic maintenance on a car with their fellow “motorhead” chumbs, or under their respective Dad’s tutelage, as I did. Sure, I can appreciate how computers and materials advances have made the carbureted gasoline engine obsolete (never mind how said advances also made automotive diesels quite competitive, which the corn lobby had to be quashed, but that’s for another thread), by making them, if the vehicle is properly maintained, get to 12-15 years of service and 200K miles and then EVERYTHING falls apart, that is, from an engineering standpoint, an optimized life-cycle. Of course, your young lady friend, in her idealistic worship of these fantastic ‘alternative fueled’ vehicles, probably never looked up any DoD or DOE publications on the subject. If she really “knows” so damned much, let her put forth a proposal to get a government grant, or, better yet, a prospectus to attract potential investors. If EVs were so damned cost-effective, you’d think companies that make their bread-and-butter with vehicle-based delivery, like Amazon, UPS, and FedEx, would invest in their manufacture! And as for hydrogen…has the little “See-You-Next-Toosday” ever heard of the HINDENBURG? By the way, the “Flaming Nazi Gas Bag” (not the bombastic AM talk radio host of (in)fame), could it have been powered by hydrogen, considering that it was the lifting medium? Yes, it COULD have, in a more concentrated form (the necessary equipment to liquefy it would have been far too heavy for the contraption to ever get airborne), but the power output, even with a converted aircraft engine of the time, was simply too feeble, in comparison to the Daimler DIESELS that were used. So, a relatively heavy diesel engine, along with all that diesel fuel, was still, at the time, the most cost-effective means of dirigible propulsion. Please keep in mind that at the time of the Hindenburg disaster, the Zeppelin company had over 30 years of experience building lighter-than-air craft, especially for those Zeppelins sent to bomb London in 1915 during World War I, and if any better method that would be cost and mission effective, especially in making available more revenue-generating payload, they’d have pursued it!
This is why I scoff at most females in engineering…too many of them, though they may have the intellect to pass the tests in college, have little or none in terms of life experience in dealing with practical engineering problems, and likely have never gotten their hands dirty under the hood of a car. I could, however, put those lovely hands to good use…(ala Cotton Hill of “King of the Hill”)…”now go fix me a sammich (sandwich), woman!”
“Woman works, man loses his sausage! Hank, you got a fat neck! Good god you got a FAT NECK!
“Woman works, man loses his sausage! Hank, you got a fat neck! Good god you got a FAT NECK, Hank! Sorry I’m late, I had to stop by the wax museum and give FDR the finger”
-cotton hill
Good stuff, Anon!
FDR earned his place among the great criminals of American history. Most Americans don’t know this creature made it a criminal offense for ordinary people (but not the government) to own gold, decreed that a self-sufficient homestead farm that did not buy or sell was subject to federal regulation – and Hut! Hut! Hutting! – based on the commerce clause of the Constitution – rounded up and imprisoned thousands of Japanese and put them in concentration camps for years, attempted to pack the Supreme Court to force his Mussolini-themed NRA on the country and became America’s President For Life until he finally died.
Discussing cars with a female is like discussing manhood with Pete Buttigieg.
They are lost. Over half of them in my town can’t even drive correctly!
Hi Dave,
I hate to say it, but… yup. See today’s rant, here: https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2020/03/02/a-millennial-moment/
There was a time, even when yours truly could vote (sine 1977), that a self-admitted homosexual, engaging in PDAs with his professed “spouse”, would not only have gained damned few votes, save on NY’s Fire Island or SF’s Castro district, or West Hollywood, but he’d have been run off the stage in places like South Carolina.
It’s one thing for a gay man to quietly live his life, with a partner, which, as they being consenting adults, I’m perfectly content to not merely leave them be, but to afford them equal protection under the law as far as being defended from violence and being able to obtain, say, health benefits as a couple (which should be entirely in a free market as with anyone of whatever sexual preference). It’s another when say gays engage publicly in PDAs, which, though it’s their “right” under the First Amendment to do so, will draw ridicule and scorn from the overwhelming majority of Americans. I have 1A rights too, including peacefully and politely requesting them to “get a room” or “knock that shit off”. And e-x-c-u-u-u-u-s-e me if, should that gay man run for political office, that I consider him unqualified based on his being gay; whatever basis I have for pulling whatever level in the privacy of the voting booth is my own goddamned business, thank you very much, and I won’t be “gay-shamed” into whatever decision I made with my franchise.
Doug, these days, it would seem natural to vote for a faggot, since we are so used to taking it up the ass all the time, from every level of government. In that respect, a fudge-packer president would seem very appropriate- like truth in advertising! 😉
A Gazillion up-votes!
If I didn’t find tattoos to be so objectionable, I’d get one on my gluteous maximus of a “One-Way – Do Not Enter” sign! (Then I could also wear one of those T-shirts that says “I’m not a gynecologist, but I’d be happy to take a look”)
Nunzio, I prefer the moniker with one arrow pointed to my rectum with the caption, EXIT ONLY!
Female Engineers
https://thestatetimes.com/2018/03/30/female-headed-construction-and-the-collapse-of-fiu-bridge/
In re to millennial women:
I’ve had my hands under the hoods of my cars probably more than a lot of you “car guys”. I’m not special. Remember, that most millennials started our adult lives in tremendous debt, and in a job market with no jobs in it.
I had to learn cars, because I had to get places. We’re not all useless. We’re not all thoughtless. We came up in a bountiful time economically, and our parents expected us to have it better than they did. We followed our passions (like we were told) and all the shits hit the fans economically when it was time for us to launch. Rendering our passions useless.
I’ll tell you this, after I got done replacing the entire cooling system of my old beater whip, I went to the grocery store in the car i’d Just fixed, then hit the kitchen and got dinner together for my (then) baby boomer man. Do you think he was of any help while I was busting up my knuckles and head to toe covered in dirt and grease? No. Was he any help with dinner? Yes.. he ate it, so when it was time to clean up, I didn’t have as much to put away. Nice guy.
What’s my point?
Most of us are switched on. You don’t see this, because millennials were taught erudition as a part of our manners. We know way more than we let on, because we don’t want to bruise the delicate egos of the older generations. Something like respect your elders. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to earn a living working at a job well below my skill level. And related to nothing in my passion list. Thanks boomers. And gen x.
Hi Anon,
I loved the part about your Boomer ex helping with dinner… by eating it!
Cloverism isn’t an age-related pathology. It afflicts young, old and in between. But Millennials are the first generation to be hatched after Cloverism had become the pathology of our time and that makes it harder for them to escape its clutches, because they don’t know a time before Cloverism took over.
Cloverism. A term made up by you, doesn’t mean one dang thing. Put a rat in a corner and see if it doesn’t either bite, and or do what you say. This is a product of your generation. Oddly, Your generation is the only one that never had real hardship. Challenge me on this, I welcome you to. This is why you get it have a blog for a living, don’t forget. Count your blessings, name them one by one.
Hi Anon,
You write: “Your generation is the only one that never had real hardship.”
This simply isn’t true.
As Swamp and other Gen X’rs here have already pointed out, when we entered the job market in the early ’90s, the market was shit. There was ennui and stagnation. The interest rate on a home loan circa ’91 was almost three times what it is now.
As to why I “have a blog for a living”:
I spent years – almost a decade – grinding my gears in DC traffic every got-damned day, bending knee to The Man, earning my bones as a writer. I built my career as an independent writer myself. The got-damned newspaper I worked for actively worked against my doing that but I bobbed and weaved and eventually got to the point that I was able to say sayonara – and did. My point is, I didn’t just pay a computer guy a couple hundred bucks to build a web site and here I am. I spent 25 years getting to where I am. Is it hard physical labor, like working in a forge? No, of course it isn’t. But try writing at least one 1,000 word article every day – weekends, too – for 25 years and then let’s talk work.
You want a “wham burger and French cries”?
Intrerest rate on home. I can’t even spell interest, because it was never an option for me to understand.. and home? The hell is that? All I know is rent until death. That is, if I can keep working enough for my body to hold out to pay it.
And you bent the knee to the man.
I got called a “mother-fucking-whore-bitch” at my job (that only pays the bills) a few weeks back. And had to endure it because “protocol”
Ok. I’ll practice erudition at this moment.
Count your blessings, name one by one, and write your blog for our entertainment. Please and thank you.
And they ask me why I drink
“Hardship” has little to do with economics. It’s more about the choices we make; the things we believe; the morality we practice.
c. 1970 when I was a kid, we were living on $120….a MONTH- and rent was $60 a month. We didn’t have a car. Once in a rare while we could take the bus, which ran once every hour and a half to three hours- the fare was fifty sense. I had a WONDERFUL childhood which I am thankful for every day- and wish that I could perpetually relive it over and over again.
One of my friends at the time- Steven- was the son of the people who owned the little restaurant that our apartment was on top of. Steven could jujst walk in and take a $20 bill out of the cash register whenever he wanted, and just say “Ma, I’m taking twenty bucks”. If Steven wanted a new bike, all he’d have to do was break his old bike. Even as kids, we all knew that Steven would come to no good.
I stopped hanging out with Steven before we turned 12 because he was getting too wild. Then we moved away. Later found out, that spoiled Steven was in jail by his early 20’s. He later married and had kids…and died at the age of 45.
Steven had hardship- his parents were assholes (Fairly nice people though, who were always very nice to me- but had no clue when it came to raising kids).
Me? I had no hardship. I may not have had all of the goodies and benefits that most around me had- but so what? Steven had those things- what did they benefit him? In reality, I had the better things.
Same todasy. I have a friend who is worth quite a few million. If you saw us though, you’d be more apt to think that I was the millionaire- and although my friend has a LOT more money than I, I am truly rich….but he is not. You couldn’t make me trade places.
This is probably why the 50’s and 60’s were such great times: The adults who were then in their prime, had grown up during the Great Depression. They had character; they learned the value of a dollar. But then they spoiled their kids…and that resulted in what we see around us now in their grandkids.
The Amish still live simply…and avoid all of the BS that the sophisticated educated prosperous moderns seem to universal,ly suffer.
Great point, Anon!
And a lot of the problem with the problem-millenials, is not their fault, but rather their parents, and of too much wealth for their own good. Oh sure, they may be broke because they are heavily indebted and have been led to pursue a path that is not viable- but they’ve been brought up in an environment where everything is provided for them, so they never learn to do for themselves; never learn to do what must be done out of necessity.
I was like yourself, and many others of my generation: I had to learn to do my own brakes for the price of a $20 set of pads, ’cause I couldn’t afford to pay a few hundred to have someone do it- and if I could have afforded it, it would have been ridiculous to waste the money.
That was a GOOD thing- but it seems that too many of my generation don’t realize that, and rather think that it is a good thing to just pay for Junior’s brake job- and to even pay for gas for him to commute an hour each way every day to see his girlfriend. Pay his insurance to. Doesn’t matter if the parents can afford it or not…they can always work another job……
Everyone’s always bitching about not having enough money- when in reality, the problem is having too much money for their own good. Having too much wouldn’t be a problem if they were wise- it could be a blessing- but how many are wise today? Or even yesterday? This is why my mother’s generation, who were during the Great Depression, did so well- not that they were inherently wiser…but that the circumstances which were thrust upon made them confront reality and either learn to be wise and functional…or suffer, because there was no one to bail them out. They didn’t have the option of living in their parents basement into their 30’s, or of their parents paying their way. THAT worked to their advantage.
We now have just the opposite: People who are given every material thing, and who are not required to have any responsibility- and it creates perpetual children- people who never grow-up.
Why don’t you dump that useless b/f? I’ve got a 34 y.o. son, engineer, makes over $100K a year, and STILL hasn’t married and brought me grandkids. I can already tell he’d LIKE you a LOT!
He did a lot of work on his ’06 Dakota pickup even though he could well afford to have someone do it, for him, it was a matter of, since he had the garage (back when he lived in Iowa, he’s waiting out his current apartment lease to get something with a garage in Vegas), to LEARN how, and for dear ol’ Dad, on one of my visits, to show him how to do brakes and suspension work which that truck badly needed.
Well, you’d have to pump me up with a lot of alcohol and drugs (Which’d be hard, seeing as I don’t drink or do drugs….) and then….
Oh…wait…you were talking to her.:o
Hey Nunz,
So now we’re just quibbling over the price.
Cheers,
Jeremy
I’m not for sale, boys. That’s what they call a whooooore. Hard pass. Remember, I’m a millennial “whoooorman”.
I make my own way, my dad (world class bad ass) taught me.
One, must at least match what I bring to the table.
Oh C’mon, now….we all know that women have nothing to bring to the table! (Well, at least not anymore)
Sorry about your luck. Seems like you boys are either too dumb or jaded or afraid to see it.
We’re here.
I know I am. Y’all scared. Or too ignorant to see it. (Ignore being the root word, meaning to ignore, which one has to choose to do)
Maybe you should be a gay and hang with boys.
EeewwwWWWWWW!!!!!!
Time to burn that table!
I thought you might say that.. but it is it far from truth?
You me tout how sick you are of women.
What choice do we have but appeal to your masculine side?
You have all these chicks that age up every year. Younger, hotter. Dumber.
But you like em dumb so you can lay your hate down on somebody.
The cynical affect you possess is so off putting. So much so, that when we fine a dude that actually likes us, we don’t know the signs and symptoms. Resulting in potentially putting him off. When all we want is to come together.
S’whack.
Makes me hate, when I’m full of love.
Silliness.
Hahaha! If I liked “dumb”, the world would be a paradise!
In all seriousness, with good women being so rare, those of us who refuse to settle, learn that we can just do without.
When you learn that you can not only do without, but be perfectly happy, and avoid all of the pitfalls (and, consequently realize how miserable so many others around you are for settling) suddenly, the criteria of what meets your standards skyrockets, and thus the good’uns become even rarer….and or you just stop caring, because after all, if one doesn’t want to have kids, really, what do we need yous for?
Nunz,
And they ask me why I drink.
But does it make your teeth hurt, Anon?! 😀
It makes my teeth ache.
Doug,
He sounds like magic..
Problem is, he’s aging up, which makes him more desirable to the young ones.
I’ve aged out. 36=done.
Sad. I’m told I’ll change hard soon. He can find a much younger woman with far more time to rear children properly.
Bring you those grand kids.
Again, I’m not unique, nor special. We’ve made wise the younger women. The ones ready for this.
I sometimes wish it could have been me. Maybe I could have had time to teach and love up the next generation with my skills. I have much younger brothers, they carry my ideas.
My one brother got a notification from Spotify telling him he’s the world’s 1% top Al Jarreau fan. That’s because me. I’ve had my influence. (He drives a 2001 dodge Dakota, that he taught his young lady to drive) They’re hip.
My generation is lost. But we enthusiastically appreciate those before and after us.
Hi Anon,
We’re all of us caught in this rip tide; it does not discriminate. Feminism and the replacement of men by the government as provider and protector has wrought havoc with all. Women are heavily pressured by cultural and social forces to delay marriage and family in favor of a “career” (read – a job). And to be sexually active in casual relationships during this time. Men thus have ready access to easy sex – and so do women, of course. But women are sold a bill of goods about biological reality that doesn’t apply to men. As you say, women “age out” as they reach their late 30s – meaning, their most fertile and sexually appealing years are behind them. But a fresh crop of women is available for men to pursue. Men who either would have married the former group when they were younger or who did marry and then got left because the woman’s feelings changed or some such thing. Burned by abandonment and divorce, they find themselves “back on the market” – and able to pursue the new crop of much younger women, who make themselves available (per Feminism).
Men can successfully pursue these younger women if they themselves are successful – even though they are older – because women are attracted to successful, stable men while men are attracted to attractive younger women. This is biological. But, having been chastened by divorce and the reality of ephemeral attachment, these men avoid commitment a second time because a second divorce would destroy them.
So they take what feminism gave them. Easy sex, no commitment. Or they just avoid women. The good women like you get screwed by “the system.” And so do the good men, who did everything they were supposed to but found it wasn’t enough.
Why you need to rub it in? I already agreed with you.
And that only is you. My dad remarried. And while it hasn’t been all the way “happy”. He knows love isn’t feelings but actions. You might feel different moment to moment. But love, you show. Love endures. That is the universe, or god, or friends, whatever terms you want to put to it. Some have lost touch. Some of us love ourselves in light of whatever heartbreak.
The important thing is to be open. Or fucking not. Whatever is your god.
Count them blessings. Name them one by one.
Hi Anon,
That wasn’t my intent; this being a public forum, I respond to address a general audience…
I seem to be desirable these days to the younger wimmins….but I don’t care; the younger ones are no better than the older ones, except they look better. Can’t even say they’re in better health anymore- they’re usually not, and conversely, can’t even say that the older ones are wiser…they’re not anymore.
(I think I’m starting to transition from desirable to old-fartdom- which is good, ’cause it’s one less thing to think about!)
It’s just a symptom of the times. We’re living in a time of the death of a culture. Western society has traded the good things it once had; the things which worked, for bad things, which don’t work- and now it’s crumbling down all around us. Everyone is affected by this- even those of us who plainly see what is going on.
I’m sure that good men are just as hard to find for women- if not harder. Ultimately, the majority of men just want sex, and will tolerate a lot to get it- many do not seem to care about love, or character or philosophical agreement, etc. -they ultimately just want a woman around for sex and maybe some semblance of family; or just to not have the social stigma of being single; or for the convenience of having someone there to do the perfunctory trivialities.
Most women are largely the same, just motivated by different goals- such as money (even if it’s not a lot- some guy making $40K a year looks good to a woman whose only source of support is a job at the dollar store…)
In the end, most relationships seem to be based on selfishness. Then again, what does it matter? A cousin of mine must really love his wife. She has had mental and physical problems for several decades now- and my cousin, who was an executive and was providing a story book life for his fambly, has essentially been relegated to having no life from his 30’s, on- to now, that he has retired, he is just a full-time care-taker of his wife.
My conclusion is that you just can’t win. Chances of someone else making you happy are just about nil; chances of someone making you miserable are are almost certain. Best bet: Don’t actively look for someone. If someone happens to cross your path who is really special and with whom you really click, then maybe you truly have something rare- but you can’;t find it by looking; and you’re not gonna find it when your older, because in order for enough emotion to be there when the sparks of love die down (as they inevitably will in time) two people must grow together.
Two can not grow together when the majority of their growth has already taken place. It is too late. Nor can two grow together in a dysfunctional dating culture, nor by playing house (living together without binding commitment- where either is free to do whatever they please or leave at any time- which includes state “marriages” these days).
A big part of the problem today, is that when people should be forging these bonds, they are instead occupied with bullshit, like endless edumacation and the pursuit of corporate careers; and while pursuing such things, they are also doing just the opposite of forging bonds: They are partying and engaging in meaningless sex with temporary partners, and thus practicing a pattern of BREAKING bonds, to the point where they become immune and resistant to the very things which create bonds.
It’s a messed-up world we live in- and we are all victims of it, even if we recognize the problems and understand what the solutions are….we are but grains of sand in a desert.
I like Al Jarreau.
Just like cops, the 99% give the rest a bad image.
LOL- Aint THAT the truth, Anon!
Nunz,
I reluctantly admit that this put a knot directly in my throat. Your dang words like stark truth poetry.
I’m going to listen to al jarreau right now to believe in love again. And thank fuck it’s raining outside, because the tears streaming down my cheeks would be stupid to have to explain to my colleagues when I go back into this building in a second. Dang.
Awww, Anon.
Al Jarreau will pick you up.
Listen to some Eric Satie when ya get home…it’s good for what ails ya.
Hey nunz, and eric, whom ever else I willfully insulted,
Sorry I was poking at ya all night. I just wanted to tell you that I’ve recent contracted a really bad disease that makes my thoughts and actions pretty scrambled. and I might have it for a long time. It’s called the feelings. There’s no known cure.
eric Satie is on the play list. Ima main line some al too as soon as I get to my home. Probably Toto too. It has shown promising results in clinical trials.
Hi Anon,
No worries! You’re among friends!
Awwww, Anon, we’re all in the same boat. Them people who are afflicted by that nasty ‘feeling’ disease, are the good people, who can still think and care. They’re the only kind worth messin’ with!
Would that everybody had that disease!
Warning!: Don’t put Jarreau and Satie together in the same room- they’ll kill each other! (Ah, well…they’re both dead already anyway….but you could still get hurt! 🙂 )
Oh my garshk [-Popeye]!
Satie’s music, with Édouard Cortès’s paintings! (Probably my favorite artist!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuIMye31Gw
(Might make that disease worse…but in a good way!)
Thanks Nunz!
Always love art/music recommendations. (Classically trained French horn player)
I saw Renee Fleming last Saturday. Every aria was about heart break. I think that might be where this bout of the feels originated. I left the concert hall with that allergic reaction ya get. Ya know, eyes get all watery and snot. Inability to speak. That one. It had been in full remission!
Eric, came across an interesting thing. A friend was considering buying an old tesla for a run around (i know – dont ask why). Given they have been around since 2012 there are some high milage ones around (around 100k miles). An interesting thing is that pretty much all of the earlier ones have had their batteries replaced, and in many cases even the motors replaced! In most cases one can find, they have been done under warranty because initially they were very generous with warrantees. But I suspect this will change at some point…. and well try googling a battery for a tesla model S – you only find used ones, for around £10-£15K for the thing used !! I guess going forward this should give an idea of what sort of costs they will have.
That said, for the average bearded hipster millennial who leases these things – i suspect that really won’t matter – and the fact that they dont have to pay for oil changes at a dealer looks like a real saving as far as they are concerned 😛
Eric, you left out another loser in the earth saving plan. 10-20% transmission line loss (wasted to heat) between the electric plant and the car charger. I haven’t done the calculations for, let say, 100,000 miles of travel. But they are there.
No matter how I have figured it when looking at electric/ hybrid vs IC I always come away with a personal checkbook that does not balance before 75-85,000 miles. My saving the whales tax credit (put on someone else’s back), nor are removal and disposal of dead Li-Ion cell fees included.
Hi T,
Indeed –
There was a market for hybrids when gas was pushing $4 per gallon but when gas is $2.40 a gallon, the savings just aren’t there – or are so far away most people (who aren’t buying virtue signaling reasons) won’t buy a hybrid and forget an electric car.
the money printing has brought about great distortions in investment allocation. When Tesla that loses money is worth more than other car companies combined yeah theres an issue. this coronavirus thing may be the pin that pops the balloon the children and the environment has nothing to do with anything and never have,
All righty now, the very words together, “woman engineer” , what an ironic juxtaposition. And the fact Eric is polite about educating her. Quite the gentleman. Me?? Ehhh, not so much, I can’t suffer fools lightly anymore. The Clown World rears it’s rednosed head once again.
Ah… the greaseman Eric you are showing your age.
yeah making sense is only for foagies
Hi Anon,
I grew up with the Greaseman! As a kid, I’d listen to him driving to school with my friends (we were allowed to drive to school ion those days). Another example of that better, vanished time. Before the twits took over.
Funny, but the expensive EV’s useful life will be about as long as an IC car that never has any maintenance done to it, but which costs far less to buy…..so one can essentially have a maitenance-free IC car……and still be better off than if they drank the Kool-aid and bought a smartphone-on-wheels.
But this Samantha idjit is a perfect illustration of why there is no hope for this society. If such ignorance can proceeds from someone who is “educated”- and in the physical sciences, no-less, imagine the utter stupidity of the Walmart workers, Bernie Sanders supporters and those educated in the theoretical pursuits?!
This is a dying society…….. A “professional” who possesses about as much insight and logic and understanding as a ten year-old [and that’s being generous].
Dear goodness! Forget about any hope of a Libertarian society; just hoping to get a majority who will breathe through their noses would be aq stretch these days…… DAAAYUUUMMM!
Amen, Nunz.
If she’s an engineer, Samantha has got to be a civil one. A mechanical or electrical engineer could not possibly have written the things she did. It’s very early here in The Woods and I already feel like a drink!
Hey Ya Eric!
Samantha could be the poster-child [and child is the right word] for a good deal of what’s wrong with the First-world- namely the forced accommodation of women in roles for which they were never intended.
Women are not wired for this stuff. Uncle loves it, ’cause they get functionaries out of the deal who just perfunctorily do whatever they are trained to, without question or independent thought or skepticism.
And now the younger men are being efeminized……and assuming the same traits- think of that Hogg[wart] hermaphrodite thing from the Parkland thing…..
Hi Eric, as an electrical engineer (retired) who worked for the electric utility company here I can guarantee that even if EV’s magically became viable tomorrow there’s no way the grid could handle the load. Not to mention the nimbys who always came out in droves whenever there was a proposal to add a substation, run more power lines, or do anything else to add capacity to the system. Now the idiots are trying to ban any new hookups to natural gas because “climate change” and are pushing heat pumps, which use electricity and are ridiculously inefficient compared to a gas furnace, without even considering the losses involved from the natural gas fired power plant and transmission to your house.
The uber greenies can go back to living in caves and wear hair shirts if it makes them feel better but leave me alone to live out my days in peace.
I keep at this like a broken record. The grid not being able to support a full fleet of battery EVs is a feature. It’s part of the plan. It’s all about rationing and control.
The way that power plants are shutting down will deprive the grid of power to deliver, regardless of the demand.
It’s always been about control, the touchstone of all government.
The wealthy will be installing power generators next to their McMansions that will run on high-carbon fuels of some kind, with the immunity that such wealth buys from prosecution and persecution. If they want electric vehicles, they will have access to the power required to power them. Teslas will predominate as long as Musk can build charging stations where they are needed, when they are needed, with their own power sources.
It is just a matter of time before AAA adds a tow to home for those caught on a dead grid.
It’s been my experience that the majority of female engineers and scientists stay in the office and seldom gain practical field experience. In utter irony, if they look and sound good, or if they’re a real “ass in the pane”, but you can’t find a way to get them fired, they get promoted to “management”, which suits the “Suits” in meeting their “equal opportunity” requirements anyway. And we wonder why the Federal Government and Corporate American is going down the shitter.
That being said, I have encountered women whom, having “made their bones” in the field, doing practical work, were just as proficient as any man. Hell, that describes me “Beloved Snips”, a geologist, all 4’11” and 97 lbs, soaking wet of her. But then, again, she grew up on a ranch about 35 miles SE of Austin, TX, though her father was an Air Force officer and her mother a long-time highly-placed bureaucrat in the Texas state government. She’d be the last one to say “ewww” when sniffing that horse manure.
Hi Doug!
Samantha has yet to reply; I suspect she isn’t an engineer. At least, not a mechanical or electrical one. Because I have trouble buying that anyone even mildly educated about mechanical or electrical things could make the claims she made. I’m hoping she’ll enter the ring but doubt she will.
As an engineer myself I can assure you there is no such thing as a civil engineer.
Beyond that, I always gag when I hear that “My son/daughter is going to school to learn to be an engineer.” A true engineer drops from the womb ready to go. The numbers and methods are the only thing the schools dump into our heads. The actual engineering begins the first time someone leaves a screwdriver lying idle within our reach.
True – but that would also describe a born MECHANIC. And of all the engineers that I’ve observed, I wouldn’t trust anyone of them to work unsupervised with hand tools; they’d be a menace to themselves and all others. Let them “play” out there in the field, but as with any child, keep an eye on them while the one’s actually productive with tools go to work.
Nah, Doug- that’s only after they’ve been through the ringers of schools and corporate life. Real engineers are some of the most competent with hands-on stuff. I knew one once who was downright amazing. The “real ones” can even survive the school and work environments relatively unscathed, if they have personal standards….the others end up working for the government.
Hey, I RESEMBLE that remark!
I know this goes without saying but electric motors fail even though they have far fewer parts. Everything is built within economic and physical limitations. I’d say once you figure in the high power motor controllers you have a drivetrain that easily exceeds the part count and difficulty of repair compared to a reasonable ICE powerplant.
Old news about failing tesla motors https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1093713_tesla-model-s-drive-unit-replacements-how-big-a-problem
Anybody that thinks EV’s will be low maintenance or less expensive in the long run obviously hasn’t been paying attention. It seems the quality of everything is in the toilet these days. Even luxury items seem to just add more whizz-bang shit features rather than being a superior product. Its at the point now that I simply don’t buy anyting I don’t need because it all fails early. So sick of repairing and re-buying the same crap that I actively look for amish style alternatives or simply do without. STARVE THE BEAST!
Hundred year old industrial electric motors are still going strong, but you can burn up a cheap electric drill in a few seconds.
Great point!
(And some random words because WP want them)
Whoops, that was for Jason about better batteries tomorrow.
Ahh yes, the good at school engineers. They’ve never done their own work on their cars, appliances, etc and so on and then use their engineering degree as a badge of authority. Being good at school can get a person any degree they want. Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, whatever a person wants the skill of school can get them there in our institutionalized politically driven credentialed licensed society. It does not make them good at their chosen field or even competent. It makes them good at taking exams and standardized tests and such.
The idea that the electric car is maintenance free is nonsense. Other than motor oil changes nearly everything I do to maintain and repair my vehicles exists on an EV. I do try to avoid vehicles with timing belts though so there is that. But when the chains need replacing that’s well beyond when major work on a battery EV’s components that the ICE vehicle doesn’t have is due.
I don’t like having my cars in for service either for many of the same reasons. My solution was I learned how to do everything myself. This means I can either do it or not get scammed. Of course Samantha has a different approach apparently.
The battery EV still has the same basic problem it had 120 years ago, charge time. The problem won’t be going away without very disruptive technology. Disruptive enough to take out the status quo. If it should happen or already happened government would put it down so quick we would never even hear about it beyond maybe a small blurb of yet another technology that never made it to market.
Great one Eric, thanks for your continued effort(s) to educate:
I would add this: IF we could still manufacturer relatively simple ICE engines, say from around 10-15 years ago, the cost of ICE engines would be a fraction of today. And, as you have mentioned many times before, be 93%? clean vs the falsely mandated, competition limiting 95%? today.
Unfortunately, I don’t think what you (we) do in trying to educate the masses will make a dent in the future. It’s a numbers game, and we are losing.
As I’ve mentioned many times before, IMO the only reason our auto’s are running full steam into EV, is it is very likely they know that the hammer will be coming down on ICE ownership (control).
Lets not forget how much terra firma destruction takes place digging up rare earth metals for batteries. These woke joke blokes are morons of the first order. At least with oil you just drill a whole down into the earth….with making batteries you are changing the geography of where ever you’re mining.
Coupled with the fact, that we don’t even have much in the way of battery making here in the states (most coming from China if I am not mistaken) versus our abundance of oil here….you are at the whims of a foreign country for a major part of your transportation. And how is that working out right now with this pandemic in China…I believe there’s already a battery shortage now because of it? EVs are just plain stupid.
hole not whole…bad editing
My rubber band powered car is the simplest and most efficient of all. There are no emissions whatsoever except for the CO2 that I exhale while I am up all night in the garage cranking the ratchet to wind up the rubber band. The steering and brakes and suspension never wear out because I am too tired to go anywhere the next day.
Engineer my fat purely white ass. Maybe a sanitation engineer. Or sanitary napkin engineer. “You don’t fool me one second!” sounds like every argument I’ve heard from the fairer sex- usually the college girl ones. FWIW most Certified Professional Engineers identify themselves as PEs, not “engineers”. My guess is she is a college graduate- how else would she be able to reason with such tautological gems as: “You’re selling horses in the dawn of the age of the motor car”. Her syntax error indicates an English major perhaps with a minor in Modern Ebonics and Applications In Communications. I’d also wager she never took a single engineering course- unless it was Womyns Studies Social Engineering. The poster Henry above may have been her classmate.
Make mine a Woodford and soda please- over crushed ice. Cheers!
Excellent, Auric!
It’s a cold day here in The Woods and I could use some mirth!
I drive old gas powered vehicles. The newest one is 19 years old. Why? I want a truck and an SUV that work great with a combined cost that is much less than one brand new SUV. I’m not driving something with a battery motor until there is no other choice and even then someone else is taking the new car $ hit before I get it.
“All you need is faith, and trust, and a little bit of pixie dust.”
-J. M. Barrie, Peter Pan
That last one’s a little hard to come by, at least on this planet.
Silly boy. Since when do trivial matters like facts, or truth have any relevance to the wonderful world of SJW Wokesters.
Eric, you’re also forgetting the amazing battery breakthrough that is sure to happen any day now. EV batteries will be super awesome, made of dirt and recycled condoms, last 100 years, and cost $12.95 at walmart, don’tcha know?
What are you going to say when the costs of electric cars come down like most electronics. Plasma TVs were $10,000. I bought one of the first VCRs and laid out $1200 over thirty years ago. The first calculators which could perform only 4 functions were near $100. In the future, they will look back one this site and laugh. I’m laughing now.
What I’m going to say is this: “I’m sure glad I waited to buy until AFTER the price came down.”
LOL
Henry, I’ve never read where Eric is opposed to EVs on principle, just that their cost & functional limitations are such that there is no real market for them so subsidies & mandate are needed to force them on us. If/when the advances you predict actually occur and the cost/functionality ratio dramatically improves, such cars will be sold without coercion. Even then, what’s to laugh about an accurate description of where we stand today?
Thanks for the back-up, CW!
I get tired having to repeat it over and over to these people; i.e., that I am not opposed to EVs as such. I merely point of the problems with EVs – and my problem with forcing their manufacture in the absence of a natural market for them.
But EV fanbois (and girls) cannot make the distinction – and hurl abuse at me for not blindly worshipping EVs.
Hi Henry,
This is a common argument but it’s based on a bad misunderstanding of the difference in terms of what it takes to power a laptop or phone and what it takes to power a 4,000 pound car.
I’ve been covering EVs for almost 30 years now and – guess what? The same problems that bedevil EVs in 1995 plague them now. Just as they did 100 years ago. Because the physics and chemistry are the same. The “breakthroughs” you pin your hopes on depend on a new chemistry or physics, which shows no sign of coming into existence.
Laugh all you like, but the joke’s on you.
On us, actually. And it’s not funny.
Henry,
The cost of EV’s may come down, but probably not nearly as much as promised. Battery technology, while improving, has stubbornly resisted the promised “breakthrough”, right around the corner. But, even if you are correct and the price comes down a lot, the cost of operating an EV will go up, a lot. If EV’s achieve a significant share of the market, radical changes to the infrastructure will be necessary to support them. The current grid could not handle it if even 10% of cars on the road were EV’s. Massive changes, at the production end and consumption end will be necessary. Residential power will need to be upgraded to handle “fast” charging systems, a nationwide network of charging stations will be needed, as well as additional urban and suburban charging stations. New power plants will need to be constructed and, as long as nuclear is off the table, that means more coal plants. These costs, along with increased demand, will drive electricity prices up. In addition, governments will impose some kind of drive by mile or similar tax scheme to make up for lost gas tax revenue.
Also, none of this will be good for the environment. Lot’s of resources will be used to create this new infrastructure. This necessary (if we move to mostly EV’s) future cost to the environment is not being factored into lifetime EV impact assessments, but it must if they are to be accurate. Even now, EV’s produce more greenhouse gases worldwide than ICE’s. There are some exceptions due to the source of power but over half the EV’s being driven are in China and the US and both rely heavily on coal. As demand for electricity increases, this problem will get worse.
EV’s will not cost less overall than ICE’s, nor will they “save the planet”.
Note, TurdPress would not accept the link, but it is NOT from a “denier” site. I’ll try to post the link separately.
Jeremy
Turdpress will not accept the link. To those interested, search for Damien Linhart World Greenhouse Gases
Jeremy
I think WordPress does not like the https:// bit. Trim it off to just the www. and it may work.
Hi Anon,
Let’s see if that works.
http://www.damienlinhart.wixsite.com/climatize/single-post/2016/09/07/Electric-Cars-Didnt-Reduce-World-Greenhouse-Gases-Emissions-in-2015
Cheers,
Jeremy
Hey Anon,
It worked! Anyway, I found this French site and the owner is definitely a climate change true believer. But, de doesn’t buy the EV Kool-Aid. So, his perspective cannot be dismissed by the eco-loons because he’s a “denier”.
So, here’s some more.
http://www.damienlinhart.wixsite.com/climatize/single-post/2016/09/07/In-Poland-Electric-Car-Is-Not-Such-a-Good-Idea-to-Fight-Flimate-Change
and
http://www.damienlinhart.wixsite.com/climatize/single-post/2016/09/07/Is-Electric-Car-a-Real-Solution-to-Fight-Climate-Change
Cheers,
Jeremy
Latest battery tech uses graphene sheets as the anode. Looks promising but just an evolutionary step. I bought a battery pack on Amazon last week, won’t ship until middle of March. It looks like it promises to be better than LiPO but not the huge breakthrough everyone is wishing for. And most of the cost of a vehicle is the “other” stuff, not the engine anyway. Although an ICE is still probably the most expensive single component of a car, a new crate engine is still only a few thousand dollars. Interior finishes and body panels aren’t ever going to get much cheaper than they already are.
And even if batteries get much better where’s the CO2 reduction if we’re using the electrical grids to recharge them?
If China does not recover quickly, almost everything is going to get much more expensive.
And WTF happened to Amazon? The customer service is now terrible.
Hmmm….
EV “denial”…
CLIMATE CHANGE “denial”…
HOLOCAUST “denial”…
Are we seeing a PATTERN here?
Hi Doug,
It’s intentional and it’s despicable. However, it does serve a purpose. Any scientist who uses “denier” to describe another scientist can be safely dismissed as they reveal themselves to be incapable of honestly discussing the science. “Deniers” do not exist.
BTW, the great “denier” Freeman Dyson passed away a few days ago at 96. His sensible beliefs about “climate change” brought down the wrath of the midgets in the climate cult, who insisted that he had, sadly, lost his mind. How pathetic. Genuine scientists don’t behave this way. They don’t call skeptics deniers and heretics, they don’t try to destroy the careers and reputations of their opponents.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Thanks, Jeremy.
” They don’t call skeptics deniers and heretics, they don’t try to destroy the careers and reputations of their opponents.” Would seem to apply to the other concepts where the skeptics are dismissed with the label “denier”.
Maybe somewhere out there some alien civilization did build one of Freeman Dyson’s spheres…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relics_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
“reality denial”, “fact denial”, “logic denial”, or WOKE as they like to call themselves. The irony is epic.
$1200 for a VCR about 30 years ago? You were an idiotic sucker to waste that much for one. Maybe 40 years ago they cost $1200, but your comments illustrate why, and how, a fool and his money are soon parted. But I always wondered how the fool even got money at all??
There are such things as trust funds, life insurance payouts, and so on. It’s amazing how the beneficiaries of such things end up being as useless as teats on a boar. Best example would be Bush 43, whom Eric often refers to as “The Chimp”. My Beloved Snips’ mother was well-acquainted with her then boss, one “Ma” Ann Richards, Governor of Texas (she’d known her from her time as Texas’ Treasurer). “Ma” had said of Bush 43 when he headed an investment group that bought the Texas Rangers, “he cain’t hep it (can’t help it), he was born with a silver foot stuck in his mouth”. At the time, Bush 41 was running for POTUS to succeed Ronald Reagan. She also said, “he was placed on third base and when he crossed the plate, he though he’d hit a home run”. She also gave him my favorite pejorative label for Bush 43, ..”Shrub”. See, even a Dummycrat is useful for SOMETHING.
Eric – “which you ought to know since you’re an engineer”
G’ Morning Eric. I don’t think I would assume that is true.
Over the decades, I have worked with several engineers who were very, very, good at their specific field of expertise but would have difficulty operating a can opener. Electrical engineers often know nothing about structural or mechanical systems. Structural and civil engineers often could not wire a light switch with instructions.
Someone hands them a piece of paper saying they are qualified. Often this goes straight to their heads and because they know more than others about a specific field, they seem to think they are smarter than everyone else about EVERY field of engineering.
This I know because I am the guy that has to integrate all their design notes into a final set of shop drawings for production.
Yours truly,
Not an Engineer
I enjoy watching home improvement shows (I love work, I could watch it for hours). One of the best things to see is when they uncover the plumbing upgrade in a house that pre-dates plumbing. The plumbers almost always seem to cause major structural damage by running pipes along floor joists and doing it in the worst possible way. But they got their required waste pipe slope.
Samantha also forgets to factor in the electric cars run on 25% coal and about 10% nuclear from the grid. Also another 20% from damming pristine rivers and the remainder from fracking. Oh the horror! Hey Samantha, do you remember anything about thermodynamics or entropy? In political engineering class they skip these racist topics.
I think you may be punching a bit over your weight here, Eric. After all, you are dealing with someone who has an Engineering degree. You may be able to fool some, but not her. You also didn’t mention in your response the increased cost of periodically servicing the flux capacitor and flushing the headlight fluid. EVs of course do not need a FC and the headlights are powered by green energy in EVs, resulting in lower ownership costs.
Thanks, Brandon!
I couldn’t help myself. It’s snowing here in The Woods and I’m feeling edgy this morning…
Eric, I think Henry is on to something. Check out this site on the new “solid state batteries” for cars. This technology is to replace the lithium ion batteries and their many drawbacks. https://solidpowerbattery.com. Sounds extremely promising.
I think Henry is ON something.
Sorry, but I have seen enough ‘soon’ for a lifetime. Let me know when it is ‘now’.
Hi Oskar,
Maybe – but let’s see. That’s the thing. Basing what’s the case now on what might be the case tomorrow or next year is purely speculative. Man might walk on the surface of the sun in 20 years. But what about now?
If EVs become more efficient/less expensive than IC cars then EVs will supplant them naturally.
But if not, EVs will continue to require force, deception – and wishful thinking.
Not only that Eric, but if the “miracle battery” is just around the corner why should anyone be pushing (or buying) today’s electric cars with their soon to be obsolete, expensive, environmentally-unfriendly batteries and all their well-documented drawbacks? When solid-state batteries, Mr. Fusion, or whatever hits the market “real soon now” to take us to automotive nirvana what then will be the street value of a used electric car with lithium-ion batteries? Talk about depreciation!
If the breakthrough really is coming tomorrow then anyone buying an electric car today is a chump.
Jason,
You are spot on here. The depreciation is already horrible on Tesla’s. Check out ebay. The only way a used Tesla will sell is if there’s no reserve and sells for at least 20 grand less than the owner paid 2 years ago for it. It’s crazy.
The “around the corner tech would bring all current electrics down to pennies on the dollar.
Hi Oskar,
I checked out the site and three things really stand out; the company was founded in 2012, there is no mention of a functional battery actually for sale or being used by any EV manufacturer and no mention of a timeline. Now, I strongly suspect that is because they DON’T currently have a battery ready for sale. and they don’t know when, or if, they’ll ever have one. Eight years should be long enough to bring a “breakthrough” to market.
But, maybe I’m wrong. I sent them this email, I hope they respond.
Hi,
Someone sent me to your website and I found it interesting. However, I have some questions and an observation.
‘You write, “The electric vehicle (EV) is revolutionizing the transportation industry by offering the most viable path to zero-emission transportation…”
How will this occur, and what does a better battery have to do with it? EV’s are not zero emission vehicles, they are remote emission vehicles. Unless the source of the power produces no emissions, neither does the car. Absent nuclear, no technology exists to create enough zero emissions electricity to fuel a significant increase in EV’s. Creating the new infrastructure necessary to support an EV future will produce an enormous amount of greenhouse gases which, for quite some time, will render EV’s far more “polluting” than ICE’s. Making a better battery does not address this issue.
You write, “By simply combining a state-of-the-art cathode with a lithium metal anode, Solid Power’s ASSBs can deliver greater than 50% more energy density compared to the best available rechargeable batteries”.
Sounds great! Are they available? If not, when will they be available? How much do they cost compared to the best available rechargeable batteries? Are they currently being used in any production or prototype EV’s? If not, when do you expect this to occur’?
Kind Regards,
Jeremy Parfitt