A number of problems stand athwart the Electrification Agenda, which is supposed to be accomplished fact less than nine years from now – come 2030. Perhaps the single biggest problem is the fact that even if every car maker makes nothing but electric cars by then – or sooner, as several have “committed to” already – there will still be a lot of non-electric cars for a long time to come.
Well beyond 2030.
This is so because non-electric cars have a much longer useful service life – functionally and economically – than electric cars. Almost any car bought today, in 2021, will not only still be in service come 2030 it will still have many years of functional and economically viable service life left.
A nine-year-old car is a middle-aged car. It is routine for cars with 100,000 miles to go another 100,000 miles, often without a major repair being needed. This is why the average age of a car currently in service as a daily driver is 12-plus and also why it is common to see cars much older than that still in service. Especially exceptionally durable models such as the Toyota Corolla and Camry, the Honda Accord and a number of others that routinely keep on keeping on for more than 20 years and 250,000-plus miles.
There are not many ten-year-old electric cars still in service – and won’t be – because of the inherently shorter functional and economically viable lifespan of electric cars, especially when they are used as daily driver cars (which most aren’t; see here for more about that).
The reason for both of those problems is the battery problem, which is a problem that hasn’t been overcome and will not be overcome until there is a new type of battery – one that somehow defies the known physics of batteries.
Specifically, the functional problem that all batteries – from the tiny one in your smartphone to the huge one in an electric car – lose their capacity to hold a charge over time as a result of being discharged and then recharged. This is not an economic problem when the battery is small – or rather, when its replacement cost is small relative to the device it is powering. It makes economic sense to spend say $5 to put a new dime-sized lithium-ion battery in a remote control for a ceiling fan rather than chuck the control and spend $12 for a new remote.
But it does not make sense to spend $4,000 – on the low end – to replace an aging electric car’s enormous battery pack due to the fact that by the time it becomes necessary to replace the electric car’s battery pack, the value of the electric car itself has depreciated to such a degree that it does not make economic sense to spend the money on the battery pack.
Electric cars are exactly the same as any other car in that they lose value over time – i.e., they depreciate. But depreciation is a much bigger economic problem for electric cars, because of the inevitable and sooner-occurring need to replace the thing that makes the EV go, i.e., its batteries.
Without which it doesn’t go.
And when it doesn’t go anymore, the EV is worthless. It is also worth less – i.e., it depreciates more rapidly – than a non-electric car because it’s known that a nine-year-old electric car with 100,000 miles on the odometer hasn’t got another nine years and 100,000 miles of life left in it. The nine-year-old electric car’s range is probably already less at this point than it was when it was new – a clear warning indicator of a battery in decline.
Which accounts for the much more precipitous decline in the value of a used EV relative to the value of a used non-EV. 
Most nine-year-old non-electric cars will travel just as far as they did when they were brand-new – and will still be traveling just as far nine years later. So while they depreciate, they don’t depreciate as hard – and as fast – as electric cars, which can and routinely do lose half their value within as little as five years of leaving the dealer’s lot. This being a function of having to spend half what they are worth to keep them going – which even then won’t be as long as a non-electric car goes without having to do anything, usually.
Which brings us back to the problem with the Electrification Agenda:
What to do about all those non-electric cars still in circulation come 2030 – and beyond? It is certain that, absent a powerful nudge, millions of people will “cling” to their non-electric cars far beyond 2030.
Especially cars made years – decades – before 2021.
Cars built before LCD touchscreens and electronic controlling of all the car’s mechanical systems can – and do – last for decades and unlike electric cars and cars with elaborate electronic controls – can be made to last for decades more. Practically any car made before the early ’80s, for instance is essentially a mechanical thing and its mechanical things are mostly rebuildable rather than replaceable.
Look at Cuba for a demonstration of this fact.
It will be necessary to address the problem of such cars – as well as the problem of modern cars with electronic controls and touchscreens, which are still fundamentally mechanical things and for that reason many of them will still be quite serviceable in 2040 and probably well beyond that.
So how will this problem for the Electrification Agenda be addressed?
It is already being addressed – via the artificially induced expedient of making it more (and more) expensive to fuel non-electric cars. See here. Or see – the next time you fuel up.
Gasoline – unlike electric car batteries – does not have to be expensive but it can be made expensive by politicians and by making it expensive, these politicians achieve the same effect – or rather, a parity effect – as the passing of a law force-retiring non-electric cars.
By making non-electric cars as expensive to operate as electric cars are to keep operational.
Other forms of the nudge to come will likely include usurious registration fees for “polluting” non-electric cars and if that’s insufficient to release the grip of the “clingers” then there will probably be the vehicular iteration of the current “masks required” signage on roads, taking the form of “electric cars only.” There is already precedent for this in the form of electric car/hybrid-electric car privileges for HOV – High Occupancy Vehicle – travel lanes in many cities around the country.
The bottom line is something will have to be done about the problem of non-electric cars lasting far too long – and costing far to little – relative to the electric cars they intend to force down everyone’s throats.
Unless, of course, we do something about the problem of them.
. . .
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I think we’ll follow EU’s example and institute ICE free zones and outlaw cars older than a certain model year. In the U.K. the toll road fees are much higher for cars of a certain age. Also, if enough ICE cars are taken off the road than gas prices will rise as the demand goes down. It’ll also become harder to drive as ice as you would have to plan your route around gas stations.
When the pandemic started, many ICE cars were off the road and gas prices dropped a lot.
If oil and gas production for passenger vehicle fuel is phased out, there’ll be less non-electric traffic on the road. Gas and oil may be rationed for for commercial use, mostly for trucking and heavy construction equipment. As the new urbanists are saying, suburban, exurban and rural lifestyles will change. Town centers accessible by bicycle, tiny electric scooters, horse and buggy and whatever public trans may be available. Also private vehicles like Uber with drivers permitted a monthly allotment of fuel or restricted to electric vehicles. Out current driving patterns are being taken aim at by the elite and may not survive the decade.
That isn’t going to work with the continuation of housing developments that require a car to get basics.
You do have to study basic physics to realize that Elon Musk is a sociopath.
Shit Test people by claiming Elon is a sociopath and observe their reaction.
You DO NOT want to be anywhere near someone who can’t even begin to reckon reality.
Ive been renting cars on occasion for years, and im pretty sure the 2020 cars are going to be junked almost as quickly as evs. Auto stop start, driver assist, 7+ spd automatic gearboxes & under 2.0L engines in full size cars/compact suvs. What is the cost of repairing/replacing a 9spd automatic gearbox? How long is that engine going to last when it sits with 0 oil pressure for a minute and then is full throttle with boost to redline when the light turns green? cause its a tiny engine in a heavy car. What about software updates that make your car less drivable, hacking through 4g infotainment etc.
You’re right. American new cars are nothing but plastic-coated junk. The problem has three parts: The first is the union. Union muscle keeps low-cost vehicles out of the country. Daihatsu sells nice little sedans for six thousand dollars. But you’ll never be able to get one, because of the blockade. The next problem is that Washington D.C. wants electronic cars which will track the location of every person. So they don’t care if the cars are expensive, it’s all about political control. And the third problem is that the automotive financing industry is huge; it’s like the mortgage industry. Those auto loans are more profitable than the actual car. A dealer can originate a car loan, and then sell it the same day for a three thousand dollar profit. The whole thing stinks.
Tesla and all the other car companies have been hiding the fact that lithium batteries cost several thousand dollars to dispose-of, at the end of their life. Those lithium batteries are toxic waste, so they’ll have to be encased in glass, or stored in a cave, or something. Tesla is hoping to shift that cost onto the American taxpayer, which is a huge financial crime. Tesla must factor the cost of the lithium battery disposal into the sales price of the car.
And there’s another thing: Most people don’t need a forty thousand dollar car. They just want to go to the Supermarket, or the Mall. For that, a compressed-air runabout would be fine. For example, a little four seat sedan that sells for five thousand dollars, and will run for a week on five gallons of liquid nitrogen. That would cover seventy-five percent of people’s needs. America has been trying to lie, cheat, and steal for long enough. It’s time to start being honest, and to offer real value to the customers. But the Unions and the Mob (by which I mean Washington D.C.) will fight that reform to the bitter end.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ljY7g66ONTa0A-F05NAE54ZErtfhZIBX/view?usp=sharing
If the government would allow it, id purchase a brand new 1993 nissan pathfinder ideally with the sensible upgrade of the q45 v8 a 6spd manual and a mp3 stereo. But even the standard one was superior to the new cars. And the late 90s to 2005 economy cars were perfect to begin with, just need to put in the mp3 player & subwoofers. Even a mitsubishi mirage weighs 3000 pounds.
Hi Ron,
Well-said, sir!
I’ve said for decades that it would be easy to build (and is, just not here) a 60 MPG family sedan with AC and power windows/locks capable of comfortably maintaining 75 on the highway and getting to 60 in about 10 seconds – more than adequate for day-to-day transportation – that could be sold for around $8,000 brand new. . . if it were allowed. If the car companies did not have to build cars equipped with 6-8 air bags and the structure to support them, which “pass” crash test standards that a ’90s-era Mercedes S-Class (which is a tank of a car) could not pass today.
A further irony is that such a car would “emit” far less of the putative “emission” – C02 – that is the current bugaboo excuse for all the EV pushing on account of burning half the gas a current overweight, government-mandated “economy” car does.
Extended rant on this important topic is in the works…
Yes! Awaiting the coming Eric rant! And you have the most pressing and pertinent vehicular argument here, man. I think this is just the type of argument the public needs to be made aware of. Everyone SHOULD advocate the selling of such an economic car, from your greenest environmentalist to your staunchest pragmatist. That is, everyone except the saaaafety cult.
But, as you’ve said, Eric, most cars are safe if you don’t crash them! 😉
Do the Dihatsu sedans meet federal crash regs? Those keep a lot of cars out of the US as well.
Meanwhile, let’s generate less electricity.
https://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/new-mexico-coal-plant-to-limit-operations-starting-in-2023/6041442/?cat=500
>https://www.kob.com/new-mexico-news/new-mexico-coal-plant-to-limit-operations-starting-in-2023/6041442/?cat=500
>Arizona Public Service Co., which owns a majority of the plant, had already pledged to transition away from carbon sources by 2050 and close the Four Corners plant by 2031.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Corners_Generating_Station
>The Four Corners Generating Station is a 1,540 megawatt coal-fired power plant located near Fruitland, New Mexico, on property located on the Navajo Nation
I missed my diesel VW Jetta. It could get 50mpg on a good day but averaged 45mpg most of its life. I was hoping VW, or someone else, would introduce a diesel hybrid. Then they messed with the software …
I would consider something like the Toyota plugin hybrid. It’s a bit small for long distance interstate but quite adequate for everyday use.
If you’re interested, here’s a timely topic about a new type of battery. It’s 6pm on Tue, Mar 16. Register to get a link to the Zoom meeting.
https://meetings.vtools.ieee.org/m/263777
“The bottom line is something will have to be done about the problem of non-electric cars lasting far too long.”
I disagree. If no more new ICE cars are sold, they’ll all eventually disappear from the roads. Gas stations will become harder to find, so even the die-hards who are determined to keep their ICE cars running will find that doing so is impractical.
Still, you’re probably right that other steps WILL be taken to squeeze ICE vehicles off the roads faster than that. Assuming we’re not able to stop the EV pushers.
The cost of owning/running ICE cars will grow with vehicle (property) taxes, license fees, inspection fees, maintenance costs, insurance costs, and gasoline price/availability. First, will give up one car, then the other because e can no longer afford to drive them. The EV replacement will not travel well for long trips, so that problem is solved.
The monkey wrench is trucking. Deliveries will become agonizingly slow as trucks are subjected to the EV requirements. Large truck demand power, not finesse. Batteries cannot deliver sustained power, unless they occupy the majority of the load capacity (weight/volume).
Are we even to ask about similar issues with air travel?
I have a lot of issues with electric cars and also solar panels, the biggest being the waste created with these huge batteries and spent panels. We’re going to have them everywhere, unless we plug an extension cord into the power plant directly 🙄. Maybe I assume wrongly, but won’t these spent batteries go into landfills, along with all the toxic stuff in them?
I’m fine with electric cars where they make sense – maybe in a big city where they are used for short trips, back and forth all day and then plugged in at night. They work great as golf carts; you don’t need them at night when you’ll plug them in.
I like my freedom to travel long distances if I choose; I like the sound of an engine – yeah, I know I’m weird that way, I’m probably in the minority of gals out there that appreciate that. Don’t know why, but that’s always been appealing to me. Last summer leaving our local farmer’s market, some women drove by in a late model Mustang, bright orange – great, except you couldn’t hear the engine – must have been equipped with the smallest one available – I want to hear the Mustang growl! what’s the point in owning one of those things otherwise? To each his own, I suppose.
They sell 4 cylinder Mustangs here in Australia, couldn’t believe it when I heard that
Talking about electrification?
I remember this
https://blog.nomorefakenews.com/2021/03/12/jfks-dream-of-breakthrough-energy-technology/
discussion when I was a professor of electrical engineering, eons ago.
So who assassinated JFK, the oil cartel?
The CIA in the interests of the global-elites/NWO did the dirty work
The same interests behind this Cov-“ID” scam.
For reasons which are obvious to anyone that truly realizes what’s going on today.
One of the major sticking points of the Colorado River compact was just how to build the dams. The most efficient way was to build high dams, but they could be used to generate hydroelectricity, so they were vehemently opposed by the electric companies, who lobbied hard for many more (therefore expensive) “low head” storage dams. Hoover assured the electric companies that there would be no high dams on the Colorado. Later he reneged on that pinky-swear promise and went ahead with the Boulder Canyon project after California promised to buy power to pump water over the Sierra Nevada range. Without the high dams we probably wouldn’t have a Colorado River irrigation system today.
https://archive.org/details/colossushooverda0000hilt
Unfortunately, I fear any case for or against EVs is irrelevant, since the object isn’t to get us all into EVs, it’s to get us all out of our private vehicles, period. The very instant the Psychopaths In Charge dispose of the ICV, subsidies for EVs will cease. Making private transportation unaffordable to nearly all of us.
Auto makers prepare to compromise on mileage standards — guess how?
‘A coalition of automakers has told the Biden administration it would agree to raise mileage standards to reduce tailpipe emissions, but with tradeoffs and at rates lower than those brokered by California with five other car manufacturers.
‘Under the plan, automakers would agree to stricter standards in exchange for a “multiplier” that would give them additional credit toward meeting the standards if they SELL MORE ELECTRIC VEHICLES.
‘Under the Obama-era standards, automakers got double credit for fully electric vehicles toward meeting their fuel economy and pollution requirements. That “multiplier” was removed in the Trump rollback.
‘Automakers argue that it’s difficult to reach stricter standards because of CONTINUING CONSUMER DEMAND for less-efficient SUVs and trucks, the top-selling vehicles in the country.’
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-technology-climate-climate-change-fe2e9ea95ac1a987b63251eeb99433b9
So there it is: airheaded little consumers keep buying stuff that’s not good for them. Therefore Big Gov has to put its heavy thumb on the scale to shove more EVs down unwilling throats, for their own moral improvement.
As the old joke goes, we’ve established what they (the auto makers) are. Now it’s just a question of price. What’s a few trillion here or there, to a logrolling DemonRat or a pork-barreling Republiclown? SOLD!!
Physics sucks because it is too difficult for the little feebleminded massman.
My professor use to say “There are two types of people in the world…Scientists and Chimpanzees”
He was correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RbwOhM6PUk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K43XC9J82Q
This stuff is simple for those who studied to evolve from parasite monkeys.
Hi Chrome,
The average person would understand more if more truth about EVs were reported. But the press, in general, has become a kind of PR adjunct for the people selling EVs (and other such things), exaggerating the benefits and downplaying the problems, if they’re discussed at all.
eric, there was some truth reported recently about the “costs” of driving a Tesla. Someone left one outside during this solid 0 to -2 weather we had. It was a bit over $16,000.
I had to wonder how much it was driven or if most of that cost wasn’t just keeping the battery pack warm.
Nearly every vehicle I’ve ever had I installed(non-diesels)a block heater. I’d turn it on about an hour before using it or occasionally leave it on overnight. We never noticed an increase in the electric bill. It was certainly nice when one is sitting out covered in ice to start it up and not see the oil gauge go off the high end and have warm air nearly instantly.
When I worked for a large corporation in the 80’s we had some years of exceptional cold. In the winter of 83-84, we had a month of 5 to -5 degrees. It was so bad livestock and wildlife loss was worse than anything anyone near 100 years old could remember. Instead of parking in the po folk parking lot, I parked right at the lab where I worked and plugged my pickup in. I’d let the non-shift work people leave at 5 and I’d plug it in after that. On midnight’s I’d plug it in when I arrived and unplugged half an hour before everyone got off work.
What happens when a Tesla is at near zero charge and the temperature is 0?
Can the batteries handle being discharged and frozen?
The ICE lawn ornaments here are able to be fired after years of sitting idle.
Bigger problem is ‘single though’ people. They can only manage to think of one specific thing at a time, so there is no ability to compare belief/programming to reality. Seeing inconsistency requires holding two thoughts and comparing them. Many seem completely incapable and thus are severely handicapped.
Most people are programmed to memorize linearly…not to think.
Also, Conceptual Integration requires an IQ of 110.
Public school and television have made most people mentally ill retards.
“Also, Conceptual Integration requires an IQ of 110.”
I was not aware. Certainly that would explain why the ‘average’ person seems so unable to process simple confirmation and refutation or make logically consistent arguments.
Eric,
Have you seen this article about EVs from a few months ago? I can’t believe it was published in Forbes. Then again, I didn’t hear anything about it anywhere else.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tilakdoshi/2020/08/02/the-dirty-secrets-of-clean-electric-vehicles/amp/
The “Green” agenda is completely propped up by lies. Anyone who falls for it is a dupe.
https://hindenburgresearch.com/lordstown/
When I first saw the picture of the pothole at the beginning of this article about EV’s I thought you were going to write about road maintenance. A large portion of the price of gasoline is supposed to go to roadway maintenance. With EV’s using these same roads, when will the government have to start adding these taxes and fees to the recharge electricity?
Why do you think they want a milage tax. Only that tax won’t just be on ev’s. It will be on all vehicles so gas powered vehicles will pay twice for their same road maintenance.
I think worse will happen. Electricity rates will increase drastically as supply stagnates/dwindles and demand increases.
EVs will lead to it costing 3-4X as much to power any electrical device. Plus they will add mileage tax.
Oh, and I forgot a couple of points. One, the electric grid is changing; more houses have solar panels and/or small wind turbines. Not only are these homes pretty much self sufficient; if they have a surplus, they can sell electricity BACK to the grid! The old distribution model of a central power plant sending juice to customers is changing as more homes have solar and/or wind power.
Secondly, EVs have barely been around for 10 years. Though there have been a few, such as the Tesla Roadster, the Model S didn’t start coming off the line until 2012 or so. The Nissan Leaf first hit the market in 2010. We don’t have much long term experience with EVs on a mass scale quite yet.
MM don’t know what your solar set up is in the US. Here in Australia if you have solar power, that power goes into the grid and not into your home. So if your AC power goes out, your solar cannot be used in its place. Also, where is all the electricity going to come from for EVs? Yours and our power grids are going to environment destroying green energy that cannot supply enough power for a modest EV fleet. And most of that power for EVs will be needed at night, when solar and wind power are at their lowest levels.
Governments want EVs so the government can ration power, to themselves first, and if any is left over, then to us in strictly limited amounts.
to5,
It depends on the setup one gets for solar; it can be either tied in to the grid, or not. I know that Tesla offers “The Wall”, a battery pack to store energy for use at night or cloudy days.
My point, if I didn’t make it above, is that the gird is becoming more decentralized now that more homes and businesses are installing solar power.
Hi Mark,
Solar is still very expensive. Not only the initial cost but the maintenance costs, as storage batteries don’t last forever and neither do solar panels. Sure, the cost has come down. It’s still exorbitant – and none of this, more to the point, is driven by market forces. It is being forced on people, including the home and business installs you reference.
I criticize EVs chiefly for this reason. Take away all the mandates and subsidies and regulatory “nudges” that are “incentivizing” EVs and solar and the “market” for both would evaporate. This says something important about the fundamental value of both relative to the value of more economical/functionally superior alternatives.
I agree, the mandates should go. I also agree that solar is expensive, which is why I never put it in. Why would I, when my electric bill is less than $80 month, now that I have a smart meter on my house? Even before that, when I had estimated bills, my highest bill was $95. Keep in mind that’s during July and August with the A/C running; for the balance of the year, my bill is lower. There’s no way I could recoup the investment, even before I die.
Now, depending on what happens to the grid with Creepy Joe in, I might have panels and storage batteries installed just so I don’t have power outages. We’ll see. That said, if I ever install solar and a storage battery, it’ll be for reasons of preparation, not financial. If the grid remains reliable, then it simply doesn’t make financial sense to put them in, because my bills are low. If grid reliability in my area changes, then I might have panels installed.
When I bought my house, I kept an eye out for energy usage. I could’ve bought a bigger house in the city, and I could’ve paid thousands LESS for it! Why did I turn it down? Because it was big, and all I saw was mucho $$$$ during winter and summer; I saw massive heating and cooling bills, so I passed. On that house, it may have made financial sense to install panels, since the investment could’ve been recouped.
That said, more people ARE installing solar, and the grid is becoming more decentralized as a result. Many of these customers, both commercial and residential, are selling power back to the grid and taking the load off power plants.
I’m probably going to install a solar with battery system this summer. But I’m much more interested in it for the battery backup than the solar panels. The incentives are a big part of it. My co-op will pay $500/KWh for solar and $250/KWh for battery, so it starts to make more sense if you’re like me and don’t have a lot of income tax deductions (which are also pretty substantial). And Garfield County is throwing another $500 or so into the pot too. Cost minus rebates and incentives will probably be around $20K. Sure, it’s a carrot. I’d rather get the carrot now than the stick later, and we know the stick is coming. Besides, I’m not smart enough to invest in the current stock market and not get screwed, so might as well invest in something I do basically understand.
Solar really only works if you don’t finance the system the way most of these companies present it, and you’re motivated by intangibles like backup power and no electric bill in the future. They love to show how if you stretch out the payments long enough the monthly cost will be the same as a utility. Well, then why bother with all the CAPEX, maintenance and potential problems? Just buy electricity from your utility, who will take on all the risk of generation for you. Oh sure, in 20+ years you’ll get “free” electricity, but along the way every cent you have to put out above and beyond the loan payment is money you wouldn’t have paid out. I guess there’s an advantage in a known fixed amount forever, but still. My plan is to pay as much in cash as I can tolerate and finance the rest over a 36-48 month loan. If you do it their way all that compounding means you’ll probably be paying 2X or 3X the price of the system and still be on the hook for the loan, often times structured as a home equity loan. Miss a payment and you’re out on the street.
Same thing when the sales guy starts talking about grid-tie systems. They use phrases like “the grid is your storage battery!” Huh? No, you just dump power into the grid when the Sun is high (and you’re at work), then pull power back (from gas turbines) in the late afternoon, when everyone comes home and starts using electricity. Oh, and good luck if the grid power goes out, since inverters shut down when they sense the power goes out …for safety mostly, and because panels don’t handle spikes in current draw very well. Installing a 10 KWh battery adds about $6000 to the cost but gives me a whole-home UPS and I can time shift solar power to the afternoon and evening, when surge pricing goes into effect. My thinking is, solar electricity is still much more expensive than grid source electricity, so why would I give it away, especially when everyone else is giving it away too? Far too valuable to let the utility have it without a premium. Especially when you consider the current political climate is very favorable to a carbon tax.
OK technically the utility is paying a huge premium for my electricity over a wholesale producer, since Colorado is a net-meter state (they buy residential solar at the retail rate, not wholesale), but that’s even worse, since it penalizes poor people who aren’t going to be installing solar either because they are renting or they don’t have enough roof real estate.
Installing solar power for one’s house SHOULDN’T be so expensive. I have yet to save the proper money for the batteries, but I’ve many other home improvement issues to tackle first.
I won’t be taking any incentives, and in fact, I won’t be tying it into the grid. I won’t even be telling the city or power company what I’m doing. Why? Because I don’t want some code-asshole breathing down my neck.
See, the exorbitant costs usually comes from the contractors who install the grid-tie systems. Somehow, people end up paying $20k and they don’t even get any battery back up. Solar panels don’t cost that much. Not anymore.
I’ll be buying nickel-iron batteries that can last, well, forever, if they’re properly maintained. I’ve posted about them before. I’ll be acquiring about 16.8kWh worth, which I anticipate will cost about $6k to be shipped directly from China (who are the only people who ACTUALLY manufacture them).
I’ll be feeding them with the 4kW worth of panels I bought on sale for $540.
In total, the system will only cost about $8k, which will PAY FOR ITSELF in 5 YEARS. That means free electricity for the remaining 20 years or more of the life of the system. Likely, It’ll last many years more. And I’ll be taking most of it with me when I move to my rural land up north, where it will be far more than is necessary.
I started down that road but the way I see it, when I’m done I’ll pretty much have a turn-key system that will be an easy sell to a homebuyer if circumstances change down the road. Even if your home-brew system is better engineered than going turn-key, real estate agents aren’t going to understand that. They want to see a company sticker with a phone number. And it’s pretty hard to hide solar panels from the enforcers, or your neighbors who will be happy to narc you out when you cross them.
Everything is a compromise at some level.
RK,
I can admit that you’re likely right about this. Luckily, the neighbors are friendly and my neighborhood is practically unregulated. Maybe I can put the name and number of MY business on things. I’m not going to pay extortionists for the right to kiss their ring, though.
Good luck with your endeavors, however!
Oh, and Eric, to your other points…
I want the grid to be a thing of the past, at least for anyone not in large, skyscraper-covered cities. Truth is, I think skyscraper-covered cities should be a thing of the past as well, but that’s just me.
I argue for solar, wind and other decentralized forms of energy generation simply because they ARE decentralized. Having a generating station coupled to 10 gajillion miles of transmission wires just seems to be such an unnecessary mess AND it keeps people dependent, paying for electricity their entire lives.
No, I don’t argue that anyone should be FORCED to have solar, or an EV. I think these taxed-based incentives are still theft from one to give to another. Truly, I also wouldn’t take these incentives because I believe it immoral.
But I also believe, the more decentralized and independent we can become, the better we will be as a people and country. Think of how resilient we can be if everyone was generating much of their own food, electricity, fuel, you-name-it!
Or, perhaps I’m just getting back what I’ve been paying into the system for decades. Many people pay no income tax because they system is designed to punish you if you don’t play by the rules. The rules are to have a working wife with multiple kids, long mortgage and lots of health insurance. Because the majority of people are in this situation they’re able to get legislators to favor them at the expense of the minority, of which I’m a member since I have no wife or children and have the minimum necessary insurance.
If all taxation is theft, and I avoid paying taxes, even if it means having to jump through unnecessary hoops put in place by the system, it is my duty as an anarchist. If I happen to eliminate the monthly expense of electricity through front-loading via a capital expenditure that’s a bonus.
Hi RK,
Respectfully, I disagree. The families where both spouses work are maimed when it comes to taxes. There is a reason that it is called the marriage penalty.
The tax system is set up to reward those that take risks, whether through business entrepreneurship or through passive gains (rental properties, stocks, etc.).
The system punishes two income families who are W2 employees. They have next to no tax breaks other than the possibility of a mortgage or charitable contributions (and then there is the phase out of itemized deductions if you make above a certain amount). With the introduction of the TCJA of 2017 most are punished further with the $10K cap on state, local, and real estate taxes when they itemize (especially if they live in a very high – likely blue – taxed state).
The profitability of children in regards to taxes I agree with you. One should not be rewarded if they reproduce (and this is coming from a woman with children). Most people though do pay taxes throughout the year. Pretty much anyone with a job does contribute to the federal and state withholdings. Where it gets nasty is the tax credits such as the EITC (Earned Income Tax Credit), Child Tax Credit, and the Tuition Credit. These are all refundable tax credits that allow those below a certain income to get more money back then they pay in. They are also targets for a vast amount of fraud.
One way to fix the tax code – get rid of refundable tax credits. The other would to institute a flat tax. Note: I realize any tax is frowned upon in this forum, but I realize that taxes, much like death, will never go away. We can either create a workable system or the average American will continue to get hosed.
Hey Raider Girl!
I’ve heard different things about taxes and marriage, but about the kids there is not question! Breeding people have been wringing tax money out of me for decades, haha!
I’ve thought, if we are to have a country and hence taxes, we could employ a “captitation” tax, and everyone above poverty level just pays, say, $2,500/year. That’s all. No withholding, labyrinthine tax codes, etc. I know that’s “regressive”, or so the leftists would say, but for me and most people, it would be PROGRESS!
Others have advocated for a broad-flat tariff across the board, along with user fees on certain things, and that’s less painful, but might be inadequate these days…
Hi BaDnOn,
The only way a marriage really helps (at least when it comes to taxes) is if one spouse is unemployed/not working. That provides an additional deduction of $12,550 (for 2021) and helps the spouse working decrease their taxable income (a bunch of rugrats helps as well) until you reach the higher thresholds and at that point they are worthless.
Honestly, I would have no problem with user fees. Those that use the system should pay into it, those that don’t shouldn’t.
Just a piece of advice- if you are childless do not read the new American Rescue Plan that passed last week. It will make you pretty damn nauseous.
RG,
Re: “American Rescue (Bwahahah) Plan”: Yes, I have no kids of my own, and I believe you. Let me guess. I’m doing the “rescuing”, at my expense, of people who cause me the most trouble with taxes, regulations and their own irresponsibility. Sound about right?
I could deal with a flat tax. Better yet, let’s get back to the COTUS! Congress can’t spend money on anything besides that which is authorized in Art. I, Sec. 8; also, all we had in the early days of the republic were tariffs and excise taxes. The regular person never had to interact with the Federal gov’t. Wouldn’t THAT be wonderful?
Hi RG,
Add my two cents to yes for a flat tax; this last “reform” bill really screwed me over as far as capping the amount of local taxes here in Taxachusetts. I say shitcan the entire tax code and everyone pay the same flat tax on every form of income, no special rates for the hedge fund billionaires, no deductions for anything. Make the first $30k or so tax free and then maybe 10% for anything above that. Never happen in a million years, how would the politicians reward their “donors”, but a guy can dream.
Hi Mike,
That is why the capital gains tax will never increase. Too many from Wall Street taking advantage of that one.
That’s how Steve Jobs was able to get by on $1 of salary on his W2 from Apple…took the rest in stock options (taxed around 20%). Not a bad rate when you are raking in several million a year.
Of course, you have a husband and wife each making $75K a year (W2 employee) and their federal marginal tax is 22% plus they also get taxed on Social Security and Medicare. It really isn’t a fair playing field.
Eric,
I’m on Twitter, but I don’t really talk politics on there; I save that for Gab. Anyway, I follow F1, FE, EV stuff, cats, Elon, and some Tesla owners and owners’ groups. Elon put out a tweet this week saying that the Model 3 is built to last a million miles, like a truck; he also said that the battery pack (the M3 and Model Y use a different battery than the Model S and Model X) will last 300K-500K miles, or 1,500 cycles. Finally, he said that replacement cost of the pack would be $5K-$7K. Oh, and I check on the the used prices for Teslas and the Nissan Leaf every so often. Guess what? They hold their value well, especially the Teslas. Teslas do not depreciate very fast.
That said, EVs won’t replace ICEVs until solid state Lithium batteries, or ASSBs, are perfected. They promise less cost than Li-Ion; are ASSBs 60% less than Li-Ion, or are they 60% of the price of Li-Ion? I can’t remember exactly. That said, ASSBs will cost a lot less than Li-Ion. Ah, but their advantages don’t stop there! They promise 50%-80% longer range, quicker charging times, and little or no degradation. To put that in perspective, the Nissan Leaf that has a 225 mile range will now have at least 337; a Tesla M3 with 265 miles range on Li-Ion will have about 397, or almost 400 miles.
Keep in mind that an EV’s motor only has a few parts, and only one moves: the armature. OTOH, an ICE has hundreds of parts, and at least 2/3 of them move. That dictates regular oil changes and other regular maintenance. No, tune-ups aren’t done anymore, but plenty of other maintenance is required for an ICEV. I know that, for my original Ford Focus (I had a Gen I back in the day), the 30K mile checks were extensive and expensive; at 30K, 60K, and so on, the Ford guys went top to bottom and stem to stern to do all the required maintenance at that point; there were like 2-3 pages of items on the list. The 30K interval checks cost a few hundred, simply because so much maintenance has to be done then. An EV, other than consumables like tires, brakes, and so on (which any car, EV or ICEV need), doesn’t require any maintenance to speak of.
Assuming the Model 3’s battery pack holds up at least 300K miles prior to replacement, any ICEVs still running at 300K may well need and engine and/or tranny. They’ll cost as much as any battery pack does. Even if the engine and tranny are fine, everything else on the car will be starting to break, e.g. the A/C. I know that, when I got rid of my ’06 Altima at 192K the A/C was starting to get weak; the engine and tranny were fine, but everything else was starting to break. Ergo, and ICEV will have lost most of its value by 300K miles; it won’t make any more economic sense to fix something on it vs. the EV.
Those are my thoughts. Flame away, Guys!
No fire coming from me, but a quick bit of research into these lithium solid state batteries yields that, conspicuously absent are cycle life data. There is talk of the greatest challenge being the formation of dendrites between the electrodes, which plagues other battery designs as well.
Have any info regarding cycle life?
I’ll have to go back and watch one of the videos I saw earlier, but QuantumScape, partnered with VW, says that they’ve solved the problem with dendrites. I think that they’re at 1,000 cycles too. Solid Power, a startup partnered with BMW and Ford, is working on manufacturing ASSBs using existing Li-Ion processes and manufacturing processes.
Hi Mark,
Charlie Brown trying to kick the football… again.
I’ve been a car journalist since the ’90s and since the ’90s, I have been hearing about the pending “breakthrough” that’s coming . . . and never does. I don’t doubt that when cost is no object a great deal can be achieved, functionally. But until an EV can be produced that is functionally superior to a car like the Corolla or Civic and which costs the same or less, EVs will remain what they have always been: functionally inferior and economically absurd “alternatives” to something that works better and costs less.
“…functionally inferior…”
Exactly. Show me a EV that can do what a 4runner 4wd with crawl control can do, heck any 4wd off road capable vehicle. No comparison, not even close.
It just hasn’t been built yet. Well, it has been built, but it isn’t on Earth, it is on Mars.
An electric motor can make torque at 0 RPM. No revving, no slipping the clutch, just add power. If the motor is a DC brushless motor the controller can move it at 1 revolution every hour if it is programmed to do so. With slip feedback and motor per wheel I would think an electric rock crawler should outperform any ICE based vehicle there is.
But it wouldn’t be an efficient vehicle, and out in the deserts of southern Utah there aren’t too many charging stations. The engineering of electric vehicles is all about getting the most distance per Watt of energy, not for overcoming obstacles.
“..I would think an electric rock crawler should outperform any ICE based vehicle there is…”
Imagining is cool, might happen in a couple decades. For now, IC 4wd is best. Never know when you might need to leave that nice asphalt because you’re stuck for 10hrs on a interstate due to a hurricane Evac, or ice storm, or wreck that backs up everything for 20 miles on a two lane, or you need to just get out of the area quickly. (insert problem here) Being confined to a road and charging stations is not the way to survive bad things.
Driving a truck can get you into binds that are real head scratchers. I had to pick up a dozer one day with a rig that wasn’t rated for it. Foreman went with me and I stopped at I 20 and sat there and waited. I knew there were 2 DOT’s working that area and one was a rookie and real ahole.
Finally, both passed going the direction we needed to go and I fell in behind. We get to where the dozer was left. Instead of leaving it down the road in the pasture it was right up in the corner of the field at the interstate.
So we loaded it in record time and I tore off across the interstate going N on a little well used dirt road. We only had to get to a hill and take the road around the bottom to the backside which we managed. The foreman keeps saying “I hope you know where you’re going cause a lot of those dirt roads had bridges that wouldn’t hold us. I took this road and that and finally came to a road we cou8ld have easily got busted on but we only had to run a mile on it to another back road.
The foreman had just resigned himself to watch me get busted. I made it to a good dirt road with no bridges and to a back farm to market paved road that would go into another like it and then another like that.
We ended up in the county seat in the next county but I knew the back roads all the way through town and took the one that was on the back side of Whiskey Dents, my first real victory. We each bought a six of our fave, than backtracked 2 blocks and turned onto another dirt road right at the Law Enforcement Center. We made it to the next dirt road with a huge culvert that would hold the load. We had to turn back on the main highway for a mile and then hit the dirt road that goes in front of my farm and runs into a FM road all the way to the town we were going to work in. The foreman was amazed at our route but we turned off on “beer can allley” and it ran right down to the place we had to work. That was 4 counties on mainly narrow dirt roads. Unloaded that bad boy and started working just a bit before dark. I tore off home, still on back roads and right into the dirt road to my house. I have a split driveway, one side for big rigs that makes a big circle and deposits me about 40 feet from the front door. I shut it down, went in and got a cold one, went back out and drained the air tanks, bumped the tires, checked the liquids and the lights and was ready to go the next day.
When I got in the house the wife was actually cooking…….supper……I hoped. Sure enough it was and was done not long after my shower. Then I had the pleasure of 20 cats and a dog pile on me, all telling me about their day and how much they missed me. I’m a lucky guy.
It has been built, here. My old boss was a semi-pro rock crawler. He replaced the drive in one of his buggies with SLA batteries and four electric motors. It was as good or better than the ICE stuff when it came to torque vectoring. Each wheel could be fully independently controlled from locked solid to 100% power. Only issue is that a couple more hands to control it would have been nice. He was talking about individual throttle triggers on the steering last I heard.
Eric,
IIRC, back in the 90s when the GM EV1 was the thing, they used NiMH batteries on it; Li-Ion either hadn’t been brought out yet or was brand new. Prior to that, all that was available for EV propulsion was lead-acid batteries, which powered the CitiCar. Li-Ion as since taken over. There’s been plenty of change since you started as a car journalist. What’s to say that ASSBs won’t be a thing? If there were nothing to ASSBs, why are the car makers partnering with the firms working on them? I know that you’ll say that they’re being forced to do so, courtesy of Uncle; that’s true. That said, why wouldn’t they then put the money in to improving Li-Ion, which has come a long way? Why would they invest money in ASSBs if they showed no promise at all? Even if they’re being compelled to build EVs, does it make sense for them to make the investment if there’s no promise of a payoff? Does it make sense to do so if there’s no real PROMISE with ASSBs? I don’t think so.
Hi Mark,
The only reason for the mass “investment” in EVs is rent-seeking. Companies – like car companies – want to cash in on the “market” being created by mandates and regulations. It’s that simple.
I reiterate the challenge I’ve tendered to EV proponents for the past 30 years: If electric cars are a superior alternative to non electric cars then why not compete on the functional and economic merits? Why is it necessary to force them on the “market” via mandates and regulations?
I agree; the mandates should go. But to say that there’s been no progress in EVs, batteries, and associated tech is disingenuous and inaccurate. My point in my previous post was that, even during your time as a car journalist, major progress has been made; Exhibit A is the change from NiMH to Li-Ion, which has occurred during your career.
Of course there has been progress. But not in terms of the economics. The least expensive EVs are the Leaf and Bolt and both cost $30k-plus which is preposterous given you can buy a functionally superior non-electric car for half as much that will last twice as long and makes you wait almost not at all.
True, and even the biggest EV advocates will point this out; they’ll say that, in order for EVs to supplant ICEVs, they’ll simply have to be better transportation tools for the job.. That influenced my last car buying decision; though I’m an EV fan, I couldn’t justify buying one when I got an ICEV for 1/3 the price of a Tesla M3. I made another post about that below.
I have an electric snow blower. I didn’t get it for the environment or anything like that, though I feel good about that. It’s quiet, so I can run it when it’s still dark out, though I didn’t get it for that reason, either. I got it for two reasons. One, there’ NO MAINTENANCE to do on the thing! I have no oil changes to worry about; there’s no removing fuel; there’s none of the stuff I have to worry about an ICE powered snow blower. Two, it fits better in my garage. For me, the electric snow blower was simply the better TOOL for the job, which is why I got it vs. an ICE powered snow blower. The same idea applies to EVs.
Li-Ion batteries have come way down in price. They were $648/kWh in 2013 or so, and are now $137/kWh. ASSBs promise to be about half the price of Li-Ion today. I think that the day will come when EVs are competitive with ICEVs, and that that day will come sooner than you think… 🙂
No flame, but anything “Elon says”….. Is meaningless. Elon has spouted enough bullshit that anything he says should be considered BS until proven otherwise.
Many many grains of salt required. Since the fundamental purpose of EVs is the reduction of CO2, and the entire CO2 psyop is built on lies and deceptions, why on earth would one believe a damn thing put forth by EVs proponents? There may indeed be impending huge advances in EVs, but since their purpose is built upon a mountain of lies, we simply can’t trust that there really are. It’s not like we’ve never been lied to for profit before.
Correct me if I’m wrong….but the calculation that a battery pack will last 300,000-500,000 miles is based on the range times the number of cycles that the pack is charged, and that makes the assumption that a battery pack will be allowed to be fully discharged before being recharged.
But in the real world, people will ‘top off’ their charges by plugging in much more often, thus using up the 1500 cycle-life of the batteries long before they’ve driven the theoretical maximum miles on each charge. My cell phone, for example, will last longer if I recharge it every other day, taking the chance that by the end of the second day I will lose service, than if I recharge it every night. But I recharge almost every night just in case I will need the full charge the next day. According to the manufacturer, I’m cutting the life expectancy of the phone in half.
I think human nature is going to screw with the reality of how long an EV car will go before a major overhaul.
The claim of 300,000+ mile life for the battery pack is specious, frivolous, and without foundation or merit. Batteries deteriorate with age as well as mileage or number of charge/discharge cycles. You could have a battery pack with hardly any miles at all on an old electric car that is dying due to deterioration with age.
Also, the cost of a replacement battery for an electric car with any kind of halfway-decent range is going to cost nearly as much as as a complete new basic gas powered car like a Mitsubishi Mirage. If it weren’t for Uncle’s demands preventing truly basic cars from being sold you could probably buy two or three new gasoline cars for the cost of a large lithium-ion battery pack.
That’s without even getting into the used car market where a 15-year-old electric car is worthless scrap and a gas-powered car will usually have years of useful life left.
Every car I have had for the last 20 years was bought with at least 175K miles and 20 years on the clock. Usually for <$2k (but from now on likely $4k). Out of six, one failed catastrophically after six months. The rest gave me years of service and couple are still in the yard as backups.
I just don't see new cars, never mind EVs being financially viable second hand vehicles 20+ years from now. If an EV did last that long, guessing it would have had at least one many-thousands-of-dollars battery change. Likely more.
The only issue I have with EVs, is the time it takes to recharge. I can’t see them being competitive with conventional vehicles, until you can recharge them in 5 minutes
Driving a truck can get you into binds that are real head scratchers. I had to pick up a dozer one day with a rig that wasn’t rated for it. Foreman went with me and I stopped at I 20 and sat there and waited. I knew there were 2 DOT’s working that area and one was a rookie and real ahole.
Finally, both passed going the direction we needed to go and I fell in behind. We get to where the dozer was left. Instead of leaving it down the road in the pasture it was right up in the corner of the field at the interstate.
So we loaded it in record time and I tore off across the interstate going N on a little well used dirt road. We only had to get to a hill and take the road around the bottom to the backside which we managed. The foreman keeps saying “I hope you know where you’re going cause a lot of those dirt roads had bridges that wouldn’t hold us. I took this road and that and finally came to a road we could have easily got busted on but we only had to run a mile on it to another back road.
The foreman had just resigned himself to watch me get busted. I made it to a good dirt road with no bridges and to a back farm to market paved road that would go into another like it and then another like that.
We ended up in the county seat in the next county but I knew the back roads all the way through town and took the one that was on the back side of Whiskey Dents, my first real victory. We each bought a six of our fave, than backtracked 2 blocks and turned onto another dirt road right at the Law Enforcement Center. We made it to the next dirt road with a huge culvert that would hold the load. We had to turn back on the main highway for a mile and then hit the dirt road that goes in front of my farm and runs into a FM road all the way to the town we were going to work in. The foreman was amazed at our route but we turned off on “beer can alley” and it ran right down to the place we had to work. That town was the county seat of the 4th county and where we worked was right beside a major N/S Federal road. That was 4 counties on mainly narrow dirt roads. Unloaded that bad boy and started working just a bit before dark. I tore off home, still on back roads and right into the dirt road to my house. I have a split driveway, one side for big rigs that makes a big circle and deposits me about 40 feet from the front door. I shut it down, went in and got a cold one, went back out and drained the air tanks, bumped the tires, checked the liquids and the lights and was ready to go the next day. And yeah, a couple days later I had to take it back to the yard that was on the same dirt road as my farm.
When I got in the house the wife was actually cooking…….supper……I hoped. Sure enough it was and was done not long after my shower. Then I had the pleasure of 20 cats and a dog pile on me, all telling me about their day and how much they missed me. I’m a lucky guy.
What is your mileage per charge when it’s -25 F and you have the heaters and window defrosters running? Just asking because I went through that a month ago and was never worried about running out of gasoline in the middle of nowhere while driving my ICE pickup.
The reality of it all. The automakers, all of them, will need to continue making new ICE cars long after 2030. Because if they go all electric they will have nothing to sell.
Is there nobody in the marketing departments pointing that out? These cars don’t sell once you have sold them to the fanboys, and there ain’t many of those with the money to burn.
Electric cars after nearly twenty year of nudges still are only are about 1% of the market. And sales fall off every time a subsidy goes away. Just wait until people have to pay the full price of electric. They will find no savings at that point.
The fanboys point out people are interested in electric, but they fail to note that nobody buys after they find out about them. Electric cars have an huge job ahead of them just to be equal to ICE.
Another reality electric cars are no more “green” than ICE. They may as well be worse, especially when it comes to the batteries.
‘Electric cars after nearly twenty year of nudges still are only are about 1% of the market.’ — richb
SHHHH! You’re gonna upset the president. He’s taking his nap now.
Privately, though, highly published investment strategist Rob Arnott agrees with you:
‘Tesla’s immense market capitalization makes sense only if the expectation is that Tesla will come to dominate the entire auto industry, not just the EV market.
‘Such an achievement requires Tesla’s brand and technology to become so dominant that the company can earn profit margins exceeding those of Ferrari on a level of production exceeding that of Toyota.
‘If that’s the scenario reflected in Tesla’s price, it should also be reflected in FALLING valuations of its competitors — however, the reverse is true.
‘Today’s electric vehicle industry is a classic example of a big market delusion. The EV phenomenon will not change the fact that the auto industry remains highly competitive and capital intensive, and not every company can be a winner.’
https://www.researchaffiliates.com/en_us/publications/articles/826-big-market-delusion-electric-vehicles.html
‘The profit margins of Ferrari on the volume of Toyota!’ I cry, waving my baton in a sharp carny barker’s straw boater, bow tie, and vanilla-strawberry-chocolate striped jacket.
https://www.epsilontheory.com/wp-content/uploads/Dark-Carnival.jpg
‘THIS WAY TO THE EGRESS, FOLKS!’ ah ha ha haaaaaaahhh
Lordy, Lordy, y’all – a fresh Hindenburg omen!
‘Lordstown Motors stock fell nearly 20% on Friday after short seller Hindenburg Research published a report on the electric-truck maker, accusing it of misleading investors and being a “mirage.”
‘Lordstown has misled investors “on both its demand and production capabilities,” Hindenburg said, citing conversations with former employees, business partners, and documents that showed “fictitious orders” and others that were non-binding agreements.
‘A former employee said that delays and design modifications are putting the vehicles Lordstown has promised to produce by September at least THREE TO FOUR YEARS away from production. A recent road test ended up with the vehicle catching fire.’
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lordstown-stock-falls-20-after-short-seller-says-electric-truck-is-a-mirage-11615566973
First Nikola; now Lordstown – what’s going on? Here’s one theory.
Coachbuilding is an ancient discipline, going clear back to imperial Roman times. It is more art than science, full of unwritten lore known only to veteran craft workers and designers.
As a business proposition, it’s nuts to try to break into the mature, capital-intensive business of coachbuilding. Tesla managed it after a fashion, but still suffers from poor design, fit and finish.
But Tesla’s wriggling little baby brothers, none backed like Tesla by one of the richest lifeforms on the planet, are going to hit the coachbuilding know-how wall and get smacked as flat as Wile E Coyote under the Acme steamroller.
Building car bodies is just too damned hard. Reinventing the wheel don’t pay, as star-struck e-bros are now learning to their sorrow.
‘millions of people will “cling” to their non-electric cars far beyond 2030’ — EP
That’s me, bro — clingy as a cashmere sweater.
Once I showed an Acura I was selling to a woman in the neighborhood. My presentation was totally low-key, merely answering her questions, otherwise keeping quiet and making zero effort to persuade.
After emerging from sitting awhile in the drivers seat, she instinctively reached out with a slender hand (delicate bracelet, nails lacquered crimson) and ran her long fingers down the windshield.
Her fleeting touch announced clear as a bell that the car was now hers, before she even opened her mouth to confirm that yes, she would buy it for the asking price.
Clingers gonna cling; they cain’t help it.
I think I need a cigarette…
Year and a half into my genny coupe ownership and I’m still lustfully eyeing my beloved from every store exit to its parkin space, runnin my hand across the door handle as I hop back in.. The day anything happens to her is the day that I descend into total madness.
Aside from the ridiculousness of EV’s I still would like to know where all the electricity is going to come from. Every time a new power plant is proposed the nimbys are out in force protesting, there’s been a plan for years to bring power down my way from Hydro Quebec but every route proposed brings howls of protest from the uber-greenies who are offended by seeing power lines. These morons think they can somehow have their cake and eat it too; I say ef them and feed them fish heads, go live in a shack or cave somewhere. I’ll take my modern conveniences and my a/c instead.
Henry Payne of the Detroit News used to call electric cars coal-powered cars. He was right, but this was years ago; don’t know what he says these days, stopped reading that paper years ago.
Hi Snap,
I know Henry! Used to work with him in the Olden Times (’90s) …
Hello Eric! I got a kick out of his political cartoons, but I haven’t seen his stuff recently (I can’t stand the Detroit papers so I never read them) don’t even know if he’s still published in the News. I just recently discovered that he does illustrations for books also – noticed when reading a book to one of my grandbabies.
We were in Florida for most of the ’90’s, so I didn’t read the Detroit News then. He’s good enough to be syndicated, maybe he was? If so, he wasn’t published in the Sun-Sentinel, that old rag.
I admire political cartoonists in that they seem to get down to the heart of the issue with one picture and a few words. He’s a good one.
Solar cells and/or small wind turbines on homes would not only provide power to charge an EV overnight; if there’s a surplus, it could be sold to the grid.
Have you done any of the math?
What is the total amount of power required to recharge an average EV?
Say Model S with an 85kWh battery. Maybe it only needs around a half recharge. 50kWh.
Are thinking you will be gathering at least 50kWh with solar and wind? Do you know how much a system that can supply 50kWh/day costs? Surplus? Seriously?
Then there are several levels of conversion losses that make it even worse.
The one thing I am sure of when I see someone promoting solar/wind/EV, they have not done the math, or did it so optimistically as to be fantasy.
If you charge at home every day, you’ll only be charging a portion of the 85 kWh, not the whole pack. Plus, that’ll be overnight, not all at once.
Well, that addressed nothing.
Seems I said “Maybe it only needs around a half recharge. 50kWh”
What does “overnight, not all at once.” have to do with anything? In fact, what are you referring to with “all at once”?
If you’re not taking a road trip, how much range (i.e. kWh) are you going to use in a day? Even if you use 20% of the 85 kWh, that’s 17 kWh. That would be charged overnight if being charged at home. Plus, to treat the batteries better, you can set the car to charge to 80% or 90%, not the full 100%.
Sure, and if unicorns shit gold we would all be rich. I can do irrelevant too.
I note that you have avoided answering my first question and have moved on to just making up scenarios that I assume you think are convincing to someone.
You seem to be definitively making my concluding point for me. Thanks.
I’m not sure I understand what’s being asked here. Even if a 50 kWh charge were needed, it’s not needed all at once; it’s not as if the system has to supply all 50 kWh in an instant. Charging at home is typically done overnight, which is a period of hours. Let’s say it’s 5 hours, then that’s only 10 kWh that has to be supplied every hour.
If a typical home has 100 Amp service, there’s more than enough power to do the job. 100×120=12,000. Since the 120V and 100A are rms, then so is the power; rms in AC is approximately equivalent to DC, so the full 12 kWh is available.
However, that’s a moot point. Why? Because, when charging at home, the home’s AC will go through an onboard charger. The house current is AC, while the EV stores the energy in DC; the onboard charger converts the house current to DC that the car can use. Depending on the model Tesla you have, the onboard charger will either be 11.5 kWh or 7.7 kWh. The most a Tesla can accept is 11.5 kWh. Go here for more info: https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/onboard-charger
If using a Supercharger, then the onboard charger is bypassed, and the DC is sent directly to the batteries.
MM- “Solar cells and/or small wind turbines on homes would not only provide power to charge an EV overnight; if there’s a surplus, it could be sold to the grid.”
Are thinking you will be gathering at least 50kWh with solar and wind? Do you know how much a system that can supply 50kWh/day costs?
If you are confused as to what was being asked, I don’t know why.
I looked in to installing solar on my house, but it cost too much so I didn’t pull the trigger. I bought a small house that doesn’t use much energy as it is. Since the smart meter was installed and I’m billed on actual use, I’ve never paid over $80 for an electric bill-in the summer with A/C running! I simply couldn’t recoup the investment in solar, so I never put it in. So, I never got in to specs and all that.
Same here, Mark –
My utility bill averages around $70. The economics of solar simply do not pencil – leaving aside the cost of the hassle, which is considerable. And rarely discussed.
It ought to be.
“That said, it IS possible to make EV ownership work if you have a common parking lat where you live. YouTuber Tesla Joy lives in an LA area condo with such an arrangement, yet she owns a Tesla Model 3. She goes to a local Supercharger 1-2 times a week to top off her battery.”
Well, that seems much better than a five minute fill up at the gas station that you seem to think takes too long…..
Mega-facepalm.
Aside from anything else I’m always amazed at Tesla/electric car fanboys who always assume that everyone has a home with a driveway or garage amenable to charging at home, and of course pontificate about what “most people” need in a vehicle.
In fact the only place that electric vehicles might make a lick of sense, in cities, is where most people live in apartments where they park on the street and have no place to charge an electric car overnight. Even in the suburbs many people are living in clustered housing with no garage or driveway of their own.
In my own case although they might be physically accommodated here, there will never be a wind turbine or rooftop solar cells, or an electric car, at my place while I’m still breathing. Not willing to go along with it; no way, no how.
I am sure the HOA will allow a 20kW solar array and windmill on the townhouse roof…..
Another obstacle is the covenants on almost all municipal properties. Even if you have a half acre lot, by-laws and permitting will likely make it cost prohibitive or simply not allowed.
Hi Jason,
Yup! In terms of physical accommodations, my place “makes sense” for an EV in that I do have a garage and I could add a solar array to my roof that would be capable of producing sufficient electricity. But it makes no sense for me to own an EV because of the distances I drive – being out in the Woods – and the cost of the solar is preposterous relative to what it costs me to operate my truck – which is almost nothing (even if gas goes to $5 a gallon, my truck is paid for, old – so very little in taxes and insurance – and so my monthly cost to operate it is basically whatever a tankful of gas is).
Jason,
You know that the Tesla charger can be installed outside, right? It can be installed alongside a driveway.
Hi Mark,
Yeah – and now you have an expensive piece of equipment out in the elements, guaranteed to shorten its life and increase costs (again). Plus the physical security issues. And what happens when you haven’t got a driveway? Or even a parking spot that’s yours – as is the case for many people living in apartments in the city.
The whole thing is silly – and the fact that it has to be forced is the proof of th’ pudding.
Anon,
The key is to NOT LIVE in an HOA! One reason I got the house I did was because there’s no meddlesome HOA to deal with. I worked at a title company right after graduating college, and I got to find out what HORROR stories HOAs are…
“You know that the Tesla charger can be installed outside, right? It can be installed alongside a driveway.”
Mark, that is one of the most preposterous statements I’ve seen from an electric car fanboi on this issue. I’m talking about people who don’t even have a driveway, they have to park in the street or a common parking lot. (Have you ever lived in a city or in an apartment complex?)
Are you going to come back now and say you want to use violence, coercion, theft, and extortion (i.e., “government”) to place charging points along city streets and in parking lots?
Electric cars make no financial sense for most people and no sense at all for a whole lot of people. They also leave out the many people who cannot afford even a new or late model low-end gasoline powered car, let alone an even more expensive electric car. A 15-20 year old gasoline car selling for a grand or two can still provide valuable service to a low-end buyer. A used electric car of that vintage with a weak or dead battery pack is fodder for the scrapyard. (Are you saying, “Take the bus prole!” to those people? Or maybe just “Let them eat cake.”)
As Eric points out, the fact that this technology needs to be forced is proof of its overall inferiority for the needs of the typical car buyer. If it were really a better mousetrap the market would flock to it without the use of force.
In particular, Tesla only is able to exist because it has been blessed with the ability to extort funds from companies that make money producing products that most people actually want to buy. Without the carbon credit scam Tesla would have folded like a house of cards years ago. If someone gave me a Tesla I’d give it back just on the basis that I don’t want to be an accessory to extortion and theft.
Jason, while I haven’t lived in a major city, I presently live in the inner suburb of a small one. I’ve also lived in apartments before. If off street parking isn’t available, then EV ownership is a no-go; it’s that simple.
That said, it IS possible to make EV ownership work if you have a common parking lat where you live. YouTuber Tesla Joy lives in an LA area condo with such an arrangement, yet she owns a Tesla Model 3. She goes to a local Supercharger 1-2 times a week to top off her battery.
Personally, I wouldn’t do that, as there’s little or no difference between that and gassing up an ICEV. Plugging in and charging an EV at home is appealing to me; if I couldn’t do that, I simply wouldn’t by an EV, because if I couldn’t charge at home, it would be too much hassle to own one. That said, TJ makes it work for her.
One doesn’t have to be wealthy to live in a home with a garage; I know, because I’m not wealthy, yet I live in a home with a garage. That said, it’s not a detached, single family home; it’s a small, 2BR row home with a garage. It’s not fancy, but it works for me; for me, it ticked all the boxes of what I was looking for in a home. I like it, and barring health reasons (e.g. arthritic knee), I can’t see ever moving from here.
Whenever I looked for a place to live, I always did so with “mission requirements” in mind at the time; will this place work for me and how I live? Did I feel at home? Could I see living there? When I bought a house, looked at energy consumption in mind. In a previous post, I talked about that. What would the heating and cooling bills be like?
As for the other stuff you mentioned (Tesla’s business model, etc.), those are separate discussions. I agree that gov’t should GTFO the way.
Hi Mark,
Yes, but why bother with this when you can refuel a non-electric car in less than 5 minutes? No need to plan or remember; no having to bother with plug-in plug-out every day (I have test driven EVs and this small PITAS adds up; plus you now have a heavy electrical cord to trip over in the garage). Even if you forget to fill up – even if you’re running on fumes – there’s gas minutes away from almost anywhere.
EVs increase hassle and waste time – as well as money.
They are the equivalent of walking around the block to cross the street.
Eric,
If you’re charging at home, you don’t have to spend 5 minutes refueling at all. Plus, there are some days when you simply don’t WANT to get out of the car to refuel it, specially if there’s no overhead roof! Thankfully, I don’t drive so much anymore that I can’t wait a day or so to refuel when it’s nicer outside.
Mark,
C’mon… the comparison is silly. Refueling takes a few minutes; there is no hassle involved. Sure, you don’t have to wait all of five minutes to gas up. But you do have to remember to plug in, unplug – and then you must wait for hours. Yes, I know. It’s no time lost – whee! you saved 5 minutes! – when you can plug in at home and don’t need or want to leave in five minutes. But what if you do?
Now you can’t. How much does that cost?
Eric,
How hard is it to remember to plug in? Wouldn’t you see the charger on the wall as you pull in to the garage? For me, that would remind me to plug in before going upstairs.
For me, plugging in would be like taking medicine or giving my diabetic cat insulin-something that just becomes part of your routine… 🙂
Hi Mark,
It’s not hard to plug in; it is a hassle to have to plan your life around it. And it’s a hassle to have this bulky cord to deal with every day, tripping over it, etc.
Point being, these hassles are non issues with non-electric cars.
Your diabetic cat analog is most apt. EVs are like having a special needs kitty. It’s something you put up with/deal with but not something you want to have to deal with!
Eric,
I don’t know how your garage is laid out, but with mine, the cord wouldn’t be a problem. I pull nose-in, so I’d put the charger by the door. I wouldn’t trip over the cord, as I don’t go back there anyway; my garbage cans and snow blower are there, so I normally don’t go there-no trip hazard. I’d get out, take a step or two, and plug in. I don’t see how that’s a hassle. It’s no hassle at all. As for my special needs kitty, it’s no hassle; I love her!
Hi Mark,
Spontaneity. This is something gimped by EVs. I don’t have any plans to take a road trip today. But what if – on a whim – I decide I’d like to? I can do that anytime with a non-electric car. Spur of the moment. Or – just keep on driving – all day, if I feel like it.
The freedom this gives a man – not just actually but psychologically – of knowing he can go anywhere anytime he likes – is important. Electric cars force you to limit your life; to plan it around the limitations of the EV. To work around the necessity of having to wait an absurdly long time and not being able to go very far at all, regardless. To have to think about where you’ll stop and then wait; a one-day trip turned into two.
How is this an improvement? It astounds me that so many defend EVs when they are inferior to non-electric cars in every meaningful way except acceleration (and if you use the acceleration EVs are capable of delivering, you compound the problems of range/recharge time).
They represent a regression in mobility.
Eric,
If you’re charging at home, it is no issue. I don’t live in the woods, but I don’t live in the city, either; I live in what they call an “inner suburb” next to a small city. Anyway, now that I’m retired, I rarely put on more than 100-150 miles a week, and most of that is going downtown to feed the stray cat, get something to eat, and so on. When I’ve taken jobs, they’ve been within a half hour of me.
I have a garage, and I could put in a home charger. I could easily charge at home if I had an EV. My dryer, which runs on 240, is in the room adjacent to the garage; it would be no problem to install a charger in my garage.
I like the Tesla Model 3, but what held me back from buying one is the cost. I was able to get a gently used, 2015 Ford Focus that offers 70%-80% of the M3’s capability at 1/3 the price. I wanted something practical, economical, and fun to drive; the Focus ticked those boxes at a price I can live with.
Hi Mark,
Of course it’s an issue! Recharging requires waiting – a long wait – and planning. A hassle that doesn’t exist with non-electric cars. I don’t dispute that EVs have some attractive attributes, such as their quickness and quiet. But on practicality/economics, EVs are a loser. They simply cannot compete on those merits.
Recharging is no hassle at home; you can do it overnight while you sleep. How much planning does that require?
The only time charging is an issue is if you’re on a road trip, and that’s only if someone gasses up then gets right back on the road. As I said elsewhere, I don’t do that, and my bladder wouldn’t let me; I could easily charge up during one of my pit stops. The only planning involved is figuring out what Supercharger to use if you own a Tesla. That’s just part of route/trip planning, something you do in any kind of vehicle.
Hi Mark,
The actual plugging in may not be hassle – to you. I think it is a recurrent hassle. Instead of drive up, park and leave the car – it’s plug in the car. Then unplug it before you leave. Have the bulky cord laying around, if you don’t roll it up/put it out of the way. More stuff to do. More clutter in the garage. That’s more hassle to me than occasionally – once a week or so – stopping for 5 minutes or less to gas up and have a fully fueled vehicle ready to go another week without me having to do anything but drive it.
Pee stops take me 5 minutes. Maybe ten, total, if I get a cup of coffee in addition. No more than 15 at most for a quick pit. The EV takes at least twice-plus as long to recover a partial charge that, accordingly, does not take you as far. So now you stop again – sooner – and wait again!
Route trip/planning? I guess we do it differently. I just get in the car and go. I stop when I feel like it, not because I’m forced to – and I get going again in minutes, not hours!
Eric,
Even when I was working and racking up 400-450 miles a week, I never put them all on at one shot; that was over seven days. Mon-Fri, I put on 70 miles or so a day. If the EV has 250 miles or greater range, you’ll have enough juice in the battery to do a spontaneous trip, especially if you charge at home.
Hi Mark,
But most EVs do not have 250 miles of range – and those that do are very expensive and their range is dependent on Clover-esque driving and you still have to wait and deal with the hassles of charging and waiting.
You are making excuses for problems that do not exist with non-electric cars.
I could hop in my 20-year-old truck right now – and drive 600 miles to visit friends in another state, with only one or two quick (5 minute) stops for gas along the way. I can drive as fast as I like without having to worry about how far I can drive.
No new electric car can touch that practicality.
Eric,
The EVs you’re talking about and that you’ve tested are converted ICEVs; they never work as well as one designed from the ground up as an EV. EVs designed as such from the ground up are big skateboards with room for the power pack in the middle.
As for road trips, how often do we take those? Even before these crazy times where doing so could get one in trouble, how often did you take a road trip? Before COVID, the masking, and the vax (which is why I won’t fly anymore), I rarely took one. If I had to go over a few hundred miles, I’d board an airplane. I personally took one every year or so.
When I do take one, I can’t just gas and go after 200-300 miles; I need time to stretch my legs, drink, eat, and use the bathroom. I could easily charge an EV during one of my pit stops.
Hi Mark,
I’ve driven most of the EVs on the market right now. You keep sidestepping the point I made about the actual and psychological freedom of knowing you can just hop in and drive as long as you want to – or need to – without having to worry about range or recharge times. These are facts and as such inarguable.
The fact that you don’t mind accommodating a long pit stop doesn’t mean it’s not a hassle for other people, who just want to keep on moving!
Eric,
My bladder won’t LET me keep moving! I can’t gas and go anymore. After a few hours behind the wheel, I need to get out of the car, stretch my legs, drink, eat, and use the boys’ room… 🙂
Eric,
I did a search, and it doesn’t look like you’ve reviewed any Teslas. I’d consider a Model 3, as it has the range and other capabilities I’m looking for. That’s the only EV I could live with, as it has over 250 miles range.
ther than the Leaf though, all the other EVs are converted ICEVs, and they don’t work well. I think the Bolt might have more than 250, but then it’s a question of where to charge it?
Other than the Nissan Leaf and the Teslas, none of the other EVs were designed and built from the ground up as EVs. This is key! Converted ICEVs never do as well in terms of performance or range.
A Model 3 would be no problem for me to live with; any time I’m home, I’d have it plugged in. Plugging in, for me, would be easy, quick and painless. When I toss a recyclable in, I’d plug in-easy peasy! It would be ready to go whenever I am.
So, let me ask you something: if it’s cold, rainy, and nasty out, are you doing to tell me that refueling isn’t a hassle? For me, it is. If I know that the weather will be nicer in a day or so, I’ll just wait and gas up the next day if I’m near home.
You have the added benefit of running your heater or a/c and not worrying about the 20% decrease in range.
Hi Mark,
Have you looked at a 2nd generation Volt? IMO, the Volt is the only sensible EV produced for the American market. The 2nd gen delivers about 45 miles of pure EV range (more than enough for most commuting needs, though perhaps not yours). It easily charges overnight with standard equipment and carries its own efficient on board generator.
Long range, super fast EV’s strike me as idiotic if the goal is to lower the carbon footprint of cars. EV’s are simply not well suited to long range driving and will require a new, redundant nationwide network of fast chargers to minimize their inherent drawbacks compared to an ICE. Such EV’s also require a much bigger and heavier battery. Both of these, along with the extra generating capacity that will be required if EV’s become commonplace will produce environmental consequences that will almost certainly be worse than those produced by efficient ICE’s or a sensible Plug in like the Volt.
The Volt is a pure EV that can handle most people’s daily driving needs and an efficient ICE if long distance travel is required. It has all of the advantages of an EV with none of the drawbacks. No need to plan a trip around available charging stations and no long waits. I just drove to Dallas from Santa Fe. I averaged 36 MPG on the way down and can charge the car from an outdoor plug in front of my sister’s house.
Anyway, other than long range (which is not an issue), the Volt meets all of your requirements.
Cheers,
Jeremy
I was on Carvana looking at them last night. They’re great! If I charged at home, I’d rarely use the ICE; the pure EV range would suit me 90% of the time.. I’d be worrying about the gas going stale-ha!
Yeah, I was looking at some last night. Unfortunately, I don’t know it would make financial sense to even buy a Volt at this point. My Focus is economical, practical, and it’s fun to drive. It’s also paid for. I’d take a hit if I were to buy a Volt, But yeah, I looked at ’em, and you’re right; it would be perfect for me! It’s a crying shame GM no longer makes the car… 🙁
Hi Mark,
I think it’s a shame as well. I also think the reason the Volt and hybrids generally are being shunted/gas-lit into the same oblivion is because they work. Because they do not represent a diminution of mobility for the average person. I dislike EVs (as they exist) for precisely this reason. They do not work; or rather, the do not work as well as standard cars and they represent a diminution of mobility for that reason and also because of their exorbitant cost and much shorter useful service life.
Like Jeremy, I could use a Volt in EV mode almost entirely – without using gas for weeks at a time. But I would also not be restricted to its EV-only range and so could just as easily drive across three states if the urge hit me.
That’s the ticket. Especially with gas headed to $4 a gallon and perhaps even higher.
Too bad it got cut up!
Eric,
I’d be EV only on a Volt so much I’d seriously be worried about the gas going stale before I use it.
How is it as a car though? Is it fun to drive? Can you have fun in a Volt when the road gets curvy?
Hi Mark,
That’s actually an issue with these cars! People address it by using fuel stabilizer. And yes, it’s a fun car to drive; not super quick, but enjoyable and very quiet and without the anxiety which attends having to think about how much range you have left and whether you have time to recharge!
Here’s the review I wrote when I last got to drive one: https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2016/06/08/2017-chevy-volt/
Thanks for the good review of the Volt! Part of me is wishing I’d bought one.
Hey Mark,
While visiting Texas last year I bought a pristine 2013 Volt for $6950.00. I got $6,000.00 in trade for a beat 2012 Toyota Pious. Out of pocket only $950.00. The Volt is a vastly better car than the Pious. I’d rather have a 2nd gen, but I really don’t need the extra range, and they’re more expensive. I average about 30 miles of pure EV range in the winter and 35 in the summer. It is a brilliant car, and pretty damn fun to drive. If the enviros were serious, a car like the Volt is obviously a better solution to “climate change” than long range EV’s. Makes me suspect that concern for the environment is not really driving the agenda.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Jeremy,
I agree! A Gen I Volt would probably be enough for me most of the time too; at least I’d use a little gasoline now and then…. 🙂
I agree with you WRT the environmental agenda. Either cars like the Volt would be encouraged a lot more, or natural gas would be encouraged too. NG can be used in ICEVs, and there’s nothing exotic about it. NG is so common in Lima, Peru that gas stations there have a separate pump for it. NG burns cleaner, abundant, and cheap. That would help the environment too.
There IS an agenda, but it’s not to help the environment; that’s a red herring. The real agenda is UN Agenda 2030; the objective is to get us in to their high tech, super surveiled “smart cities”, so the Oligarchs can control us cattle. That’s what it’s REALLY all about…
Hi Mark,
“How is it as a car though? Is it fun to drive? Can you have fun in a Volt when the road gets curvy?”
Actually, it is quite fun to drive. It handles well in the curves and feels peppy enough. It has a sort mode that alters the throttle response. It doesn’t make the car faster, it makes it respond to less throttle movement, which makes it feel faster. It also has a center console mounted automatic style stick shift, which operates like a sporty automatic. It has an L feature, like a standard automatic, that boosts regeneration, but feels exactly like a downshift. It’s fun to come into a sharp turn, downshift, then accelerate through the turn and shift back to D.
Yes, the Volt is fun to drive.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Eric,
I am constantly amazed at how simple things are made into complex procedures for no reason, or for only marginal gain.
It’s happening all across society. And it marginalizes and excludes a lot of people. Some just can’t keep up with it all, and others don’t have the time or patience to deal with it because they have other priorities.
One of the bosses at work has tracking sheets for everything. Which he makes everyone fill out. It’s a major PITA. Peple joke about the fact that there is no category for “filling out tracking sheets” on the time tracker, and suggest that we need a tracking sheet to keep track of all of the tracking sheets. All of those “simple extra steps” add up. And I, for one, have had it up to here with that stuff. It’s one thing if my boss does it, but the BS stops when I get home.
Hi Publius,
Yup! A friend of mine just sent me a text about her “self-appraisal” at work. She has to do her own annual review, justifying her job – and then have the additional review conducted by HR. Apparently this is now commonplace. I fall to my knees and thank the Motor Gods I work for myself…
I have to do that too.
It is one of many brainwashing/torture techniques that are all too common, and all too effective in the corporate world.
My biggest regret is not learning to do something where I can easily pack up my tools and strike out on my own, minus all the bullshit.
I told my mother this, and she seemed horrified.
And I fall to my knees, praise the sun god (the only god to worship) who provides heat and light for me to exist, that I am now a retiree and not subject to the tyranny of the modern day workplace.
They’re hoping to flatten out the ranks of management. When I was a supervisor we had 10 technicians per supervisor. When they restructured I had 20 but also a lead tech to do most of the field work for me. My current boss (I’m now hourly) has 25 reports! With 20 guys I spent much of my time approving vacation schedules and following up on HR crap. I can only imagine what he has to go through. For sure the day-to-day stuff isn’t coming from him, it is from all the other departments and “the systems.” Without workforce automation I doubt he would have any way to know what I do, since I only talk to him once a week or so and since he’s in Denver and I’m not (thank God!) I only see him a few times a year, even before Wuhan Flu.
I like that you guys continue to try to educate MM.
Sisyphusean, clearly, but entertaining to watch MM continually ignore or not understand the valid points and then move the goalposts with a new concocted scenario that was not being discussed before.
The arrogance and sanctimony is epic.
All based on ‘for me’ because that is all that matters to MM clearly. Others can eat cake.
Tell me, A, do you have to work hard at being a jerk or does it come naturally to you?
“The arrogance and sanctimony is epic.”
This describes every post of yours. You have no desire to debate, only to throw out condescending one liners, which, unfortunately, you seem to think are cute or funny…..there not.
Most of the time I ignore your posts, because I don’t find them interesting, but I like MarkyMark. He and I may not agree on everything, but I find his posts to be thoughtful, concise, and reflective.
Your posts insinuating that he is dense or unintelligent, because he disagrees with you is preposterous.
That you think that surprises me little. You seem of the same type as MM.
“Your posts insinuating that he is dense or unintelligent, because he disagrees with you….”
Except that is NOT what I said. Though it surprises me little that it is how you comprehended it.
“The arrogance and sanctimony is epic.”
Read your reply to me.
BTW They are or They’re.
Go back to ignoring. Or whine some more. Or do whatever you want if it makes you feel relevant.
Anon, you’re an A’HOLE! There, I said it! Now, I can live up to the arrogant, condescending, and other tags you applied to me.
See?
“condescending”
Never once written in my posts here.
In fact it was RG who called me condescending.
Man, I can just imagine an argument between you two. Fabricated accusations would abound.
At least make an effort to get your attributions correct so you don’t look too foolish.
“This describes every post of yours.”
Every post? Please show your work or acknowledge that that is a blatant lie.
“You have no desire to debate” Explain how you can possibly know this.
Tell me, RG, do you have to work hard at being a lying POS or does it come naturally to you?
Considering the source, a compliment.
But seriously, go back and read your responses in this thread. You are constantly moving the goalpost, creating ‘reverse strawman’ arguments and stating things specific to you as applying generally to all. Then ignoring or dismissing other peoples comments without justification.
BTW, I am an asshole. Changes nothing about the written words.
Compliment given.
You can’t seriously believe you are going to charge anything overnight using solar power. Maybe a calculator, in the summertime, above the Arctic circle…
He has it solved. He is going to put windmills on the EV so it can recharge while he drives……….
People have suggested this to me as a good idea that “obviously nobody has thought of, because I have not seen it done”.
Weather forecast for today, a huge number of pies falling out of the sky may make it impossible to drive. Home based wind/solar systems do not create much surplus, if in fact they don’t have to draw outside sourced power, during peak demand near record high or low temperatures, without an EV plugged into them. Both these power sources are in fact the very original sources of energy. Solar power has been used since before there were even people, and wind has been used for hundreds if not thousands of years. There’s a reason they have declined in usage lately. There are sources that create more, and more reliable energy at less cost. At least less cost if the Psychopaths In Charge didn’t have their thumb on the scale.
In the future liberty minded people will be living as outlaws. Looked upon as Barbarians, but remember eventually the Barbarians sacked Rome.
I might buy an electric bicycle, but my personal vehicle is a 21 year old Ford F-250 (I have a newer company owned truck for work) and my wife drives a 20 year old Jeep. It seems like there is more parts available for old trucks and Jeep’s than old passenger cars. No salt used on the roads where I live , so no rust problem. Why buy new when you can fix the old?
I am driving a 25 yr old subaru …Its not rusty its not a pos the clear is coming off thats it…..try that with any tesla.
I drive a 21 YO Z 71. I guess LS engines last forever since a friend has a K2500 with lockers front and rear and has 400,000 miles on it. I’ll buy one of those Tesla pickups next time that can barely be hurt. I’ll never forget Elon bragging about how tough they were. He threw a steel ball at one and shattered the window he said was virtually unbreakable. Evidently, virtual doesn’t include a wimp throwing a steel ball.
Q: How to force IC autos out of service?
A: Stop making replacements for the electronics all modern autos depend on.
Can’t buy a replacement engine computer when the original part dies?
Can’t buy a new touchscreen or digital speedometer?
Yer screwed, Charlie.
For want of a nail, the (horse)shoe was lost…etc.
I’ve seen this happen with computer displays.
Had to junk an expensive large sized monitor awhile back.
Display panel was fine, but part of the external controls fried – no replacement parts.
Panel is the expensive part, but will not work without the control board & wiring harness.
Hi turtle,
A similar thing happened to me recently, the (electronic of course) control board on our dishwasher got fried and I couldn’t find a replacement anywhere, so I had to junk a perfectly usable appliance, there’s some green/sustainable BS for ya. I tried to buy a replacement with the old timey clock motor type controls but of course those aren’t available any more – progress, ugh. I contemplated ordering a spare control board for the new dishwasher but I’m old enough that it might outlast me so why bother 😆.
Hi, mike,
Ah feel yore pine. 🙂
Getting to the point where you need serious surge protection on your entire house electrical system, not just computer, etc.
Nearly everything you can think of (and some you may not realize) has electronic gee gaws these days. One bad power surge and its kaput.
BTW, I spent 5 years of my young life in Eastern Mass., so I am very familiar with New England winters. The greenies don’t want power? Fine. Let them freeze in the dark, I say.
Go, Red Sox!
Perhaps one could by pass all the controls and wire it directly with an on/off switch? A dryer is nothing more than a huge hair dryer with a tumbler. Shouldn’t be impossible, if one can dispense with their need for a timer and the largely useless plethora of operating modes provided by the control board.
AvE repairs dead Milwaukee liquids pump:
https://youtu.be/yRP-PCYZDpo
Long ago when electronics controlled appliances a friend bought that Caddy Kenmore washer. Almost immediately the board died. The repairman said after the 6 month warranty was gone, he would have been just as well off to buy another new one.
He left and left that washer with us. We wore out every mechanical part on it, some of them a few times. It finally had all the mechanicals including the transmission worn out we bought a new washer. It was the longest lived washer we ever had including the old “chugger” Fridgedaire that were almost unbreakable. They’d damned sure get stuff clean. In my part of the country there was often a fancy washer for the family and one of those old Frigidaire’s in the garage or barn for all those really nasty work clothes.
How to put them back into service:
Bolt on a carburetor. Not exactly a simple process. But, underneath all of the crap, a modern car is still just a gas engine with a transmission.
Maybe even run straight pipes while you’re at it.
If there’s enough of a market for it, someone will build an aftermarket kit.
Maybe.
It will likely have to be pre OBD2 for a carb on an automatic. The transmission talks to the fuel system in newer stuff. Without signal electronic transmissions can be useless.
Manuals are better but even those are integrated with the computer on newish stuff.
If it requires a computer to shift, you make a good point.
If not…so what if the transmission talks to the computer? At the point where you rip out the EFI, the computer isn’t really doing anything, except maybe monitoring the sensors. And probably throwing codes all over the place. If it’s even left hooked up.
A more “elegant” install might involve modifying/replacing the sensors to trick the computer into thinking that all is well. That version might even pass emissions…if they don’t look too closely.
If it won’t pass emissions, in some locations it’s not a problem. In others, it can’t be “registered.” But a little ingenuity might just make it run.
Turtle, they make aftermarket fuel control systems that “bolt in”. Good weekend project and you then have a tuning interface to go along with your new electrics. Fairly simple project.
Fine and dandy, but here in the People’s Republic of California, you will need to pass emissions (smog) test every 2 years, unled your ride is older than 1975.
If the aftermarket parts can’t do that, they are worthless in this environment.
Great news, if they can pass smog.
Port fuel injection on my 1989 F150 is still running clean on the original Intel processor.
I am hoping the processor outlives the vehicle.
Turtle, same for me. I have 4 or 5 big ruined monitors. They chew your ass if you put them in the dumpster so I borrow a backhoe now and then and fill it with monitors, computers, tv’s, and batteries except for lead acid. I keep those for ammo. I’ve been tempted to pour some babbit in a mold and see how that works.
Eric,
Do you think part of the hidden agenda on Electrics is aimed towards helping the big tech giants in that they get to *write off* the massive depreciation of electric vehicles at a higher rate? Amazon’s future fleet will depreciate at 2X the rate of non-electrics (7 years currently for standard depreciation) and almost zero on recapture burden since the electric thing is worthless at the end. The John Gill president can and will change the tax law to make electrics more affordable to business. Amazon has massive profits in their Web and Web sales business so they can shelter their massive profits at a greater rate than their delivery competitors. One more step towards a monopoly. Amazon’s competitors can do the same but they are behind on massive capital that Amazon has acquired to change out their fleets, and devoting capital to this effort by acquiring more debt would be their demise. Say goodbye to UPS and FedEx.
Another consideration that is not being spoken of in polite company is, what to do with the now useless 9 year old EV. Will the entire vehicle fleet in the world have to be replaced every decade? If so, where are you going to put all those old, useless cars with leaking batteries?
I know, I know, I’m just a detracting, nay-saying, malcontented denier. Our Glorious Electrified Future awaits. Somehow I feel like Ted Bundy awaiting HIS electrified future.
Again, the case for a small, light, low range electric for commuting or chores makes a lot of sense. But that automobile isn’t available in the US because someone may take it out on the interstate, or overload it by packing a bunch of their friends in the back and wreck, or whatever stupidity they can dream up. In fact, I’m fairly certain people will, and post their road trip on YouTube just for the LULZ. But the think-tank types will dream up an even worse scenario and make sure that’s the “story” presented to anyone who might want to build such a vehicle and get it through the labyrinth of the DOT for sale. Not to mention all the added total cost of ownership when dealing with multiple vehicles, one of which is a uni-tasker.
But one advantage is that by not using your gas engined vehicle as much you’ll save wear and tear, so it might last even longer. And the fact that short distance trips put more wear on the gas engine than long trips, and it might even go longer than expected.
RK,
“Again, the case for a small, light, low range electric for commuting or chores makes a lot of sense.”
I agree!
As for the ass who does what you’ve said here: What happened to simply being accountable for one’s stupid actions? Why is it we may not have this car because some idiot will use it improperly? You can most assuredly make the same argument for firearms or screwdrivers.
“Am I my brother’s keeper?” has morphed into “My brother is my keeper.”
Or at least “society’s is my keeper.” For sure I’m not my own keeper, if you believe someone else is better at keeping you alive than you are.
RK,
LSEVs are widely available in China. Because they’re built so light (necessary given its mission requirement), they wouldn’t meet NHTSA crash regs here.
London used to be overrun with those horrid Gee Whiz things. Not sure if it still is. Terrible but they did seem to fill a niche and were better than a bicycle when it rains.
Why aren’t there more electric golf carts?
That would appear to be the ideal place for an EV to be used. But they haven’t exactly taken over that particular market segment.
No case need be made for a product that people find useful and cost effective. That’s called a market, and it makes its own case without any effort. The “case” needing to be made is the case of stopping the Psychopaths In Charge from interfering in that market.