At what point does the plug get pulled? Not the one that plugs into the wall. The one that plugs into our wallets – to subsidize the ongoing “purchase” of electric cars?
Air-fingers-quote-marks to emphasize the point.
The subsidies for electric cars were supposed to only be a temporary measure. We were told – as they always tell us, when it comes to this kind of thing – that it was necessary to make nascent electric cars more “affordable” by using the tax code to bribe people to buy them, using other people’s money – because EVs could not otherwise “compete” with non-electric cars.
That this is akin to putting that He Bitch “Lia” Thomas in the pool with women is a thought that never seems to occur to some people. If EVs can’t compete on a level playing field then perhaps there is something wrong with this whole EV business . . . ? 
At any rate, people have been buying EVs with other people’s money – the honest definition of a “subsidy” – for more than a decade. These subsidies were supposed to end once a given EV manufacturer reached 200,000 EVs subsidized – er, “sold” – after which the manufacturer would be obliged to actually sell them, at a price necessary to make a profit.
Well, so much for that.
The Biden Thing not only wants to end the 200,000 “sold” limit on subsidies – it wants to increase the bribe to $12,500 per “sale.” A not-far-from-doubling of the original $7,500 per.
This is interesting – because it goes beyond the usual/boring reason.
The federal government has long been in the business of advantaging this business at the expense of that one – and at the expense of all of us. It exists not to serve as a bulwark against threats to liberty but to middle-man endless serial corruption, talking its cut of the money and all of the power involved in the transaction. Everyone knows this. It is old hat. The EV “industry” – which is mostly Tesla – leverages it for its own advantage. So do the other car companies, whenever it is advantageous for them to do so. As back in the early 2000s, when a bankrupted GM used the government to subsidize its failed business.
The free market’s discipline is applied almost exclusively to the businesses too small to be able to afford politicians. It is why it was only small businesses that were “locked down” during the “pandemic” – because (apparently) the “virus” restrained itself from “spreading” at Lowes, Wal-Mart and Home Depot, et al.
That is the usual business.
The interesting business in this case is what the push to dive even deeper into the pockets of people who don’t own electric cars but do pay the taxes used to “help” others “buy” them suggests.
The first thing being that $7,500 isn’t enough to keep the EV conga line going.
The second is implied by the first. It is that the number of people affluent enough to “buy” EVs is dwindling.
If you’re flush – as is true of most who work for the government and the people who are the government, such as the Biden Thing’s secretary of transportation, Pete Buttigieg – it is no great stretch to find the $50,000 or so it takes to “buy” an electric car such as the Tesla Model 3. A $7,500 tax write-off sweetens the pot a little bit, certainly. But it’s probably not critical, as people who can afford $50k vehicles – electric and not – can still afford them even without the tax bribe.
It is why there is a market for luxury-priced vehicles.
If you gander at the demographic profile of the typical EV “buyer” you will find that he is not someone who sweats $7,500 either way. But if the money’s on the table, why not take it? And so, they do.
But it is a limited market – and a $7,500 tax-bribe is not enough to persuade the average American to buy something like a Tesla Model 3 – or even something like a $35,000 Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf.
There are only so many Americans who can afford to spend that – even less $7,500 – on any car, electric or not. This was true before the Biden Thing was (s)elected to replace the Orange Man bad. It is much more true now that Orange Man gone – and along with him, about 15 percent of the purchasing power of the average American’s paycheck.
Hence, it is necessary to pay him even more, to persuade him to “buy” an electric car. Otherwise, electric car sales will collapse – and that is something the government cannot allow to happen because electric cars are the vehicle for getting private transportation entirely under its control.
The market – sans subsidy – for cars in the $50,000 price bracket is inherently limited. That limit has probably been reached or close to it, as regards electric cars. But the government has “mandated” that electric cars be mass-marketed.
That it can do, simply by “mandating” it.
But it cannot “mandate” that the masses buy them. Well, it could – but then up comes the problem of the wherewithal. And that the government can remedy – by increasing the tax-bribe to $12,500. That would cut the price – to the “buyer” – of something like a $35,000 Chevy Bolt by almost a third, bringing it down to about $22,000. Maybe the government will simply give every American who wants one an EV? This would indeed make the “purchase” of electric cars much more “affordable.”
But can we afford it?
These EV subsidies are a kind of UBI (Universal Basic Income) variant on wheels. The government pays people not to work – and pays them to drive an electric car. This sounds fine except that someone’s going to have to pay for it. When everyone is getting paid, whom do you suppose that will be?
Such is the nature of the free lunch – and the free ride, too.
. . .
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Question: How come electric golf carts aren’t catching fire right and left?
Question: How come battery-powered forklifts aren’t going up in smoke inside of businesses, the buildings.
Answer: Reliable batteries that pass the smell test.
A battery-powered forklift to do work inside a building is what is necessary. Very dependable mechanical mule if there ever was one.
Dedicated employees hard at work at the cobalt
minegulag somewhere in the Congo.If you’re jonesin’ to buy electric mobility, you have to bear the responsibility of being a totally clueless hypocrite. The cognitive dissonance is on fire, it auto-immolates.
You buy the lies, not the real deal. They sell the sizzle, not the steak. That fried to a crisp electric bus in Paris is picture worth a thousand words.
There is an excuse for ignorance, but not for stupidity.
Never once hit a temp above 70 degrees F during all of April when record temps of 92 degrees were recorded as record highs in 1910 CE. Coldest April month ever experienced in my memory.
Hi Drump,
Golf carts generally use lead-acid batteries, I think. They are also small and light and not subjected to “fast” charging at 400-plus volts…
The warning I read in the instructions for the battery-powered small tiller, weed whacker, and chain saw, the batteries work for all three, is don’t let them get wet.
I suspect moisture may be a factor in lithium-ion battery failures that go to plaid thermal runaway. It will fail.
Moisture in the air, rain and wet roads will somehow have a negative effect on the big bad battery, eventually, invariably, something can and will go wrong. The inevitable will happen, much to the chagrin of Li freaks.
Lead-acid for the golf cart. Retired people in small towns use golf carts for short trips to run errands.
If lead-acid batteries failed at an intolerable rate, they’d be banned.
Got about five lead-acid batteries stored for exchange, not once have they ever caught fire.
“don’t let them get wet” – this is only slightly less ridiculous than the care instructions packaged for the new stainless steel sink we installed a few years ago:
“To avoid unwanted build-up, it is recommended to dry your sink after each use”
drumphish – The reason why you never want to get a small tool battery wet is because they have a battery management system. Each cell is monitored while charging to make sure they stay about the same voltage (balanced charging). If one cell has a higher resistance (lower voltage) than the others it will heat up and fail. It also prevents the tool from discharging the battery too far for similar reasons. Some will even keep count of charge/discharge cycles and profile the battery. Now before you go down the “planned obsolescence” path remember that all chemical batteries have a limited lifespan. The difference with lithium chemistry is that very bad things can happen, so better to end-of-life the pack before it gets sketchy.
Commerical grade batteries might include conformal coatings and gasketed contacts to keep moisture out. But that costs money and the two or three remaning manufacturers are building to price points, not quality.
Tesla Model S Fails German Inspections in Large Numbers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw7PDgOsRQg
Another one from the “you really can’t afford that” file. We will see more things like this though as cars get more and more expensive (even non-electric ones).
This is what a local dealer is offering for financing. Looks like a 5 1/2 year loan, with lower payments the first 36 months and higher ones for the last 30 months. This is really getting twisted isn’t it?
This is the pitch line:
“”If you’re like a lot of first-time car buyers in Munster, you’re not yet earning as much as you plan to be earning in a few years. The problem is you need anew car now. That is when it might be a good idea to use Flex Buy forfinancing the purchase of a Ford vehicle.”” (left in the errors)
https://www.webbford.net/ford-research/ford-flex-buy/
So what happens when your income doesn’t increase enough to afford the high payments for the last 30 months? Refinance a new six year loan on a four or five year old car? Seems a recipe for lots of repos.
Even the real “general welfare clause” is actually nothing of the kind. Any who can effectively read English can clearly see that it is an APOLOGY, for taking authority to lay and collect taxes. Which is almost immediately followed by a list of the federal governments powers and authority, which do not mention “general welfare”.
Every time I see the chest feeder “Transportation ‘Secretary’,” I want to crush the life out of him. .
Watch: Electric Bus In Paris Spontaneously Explodes
First responders in many parts of the world aren’t adequately prepared nor trained to handle lithium battery fires amid the proliferation of EVs on streets and highways.
It takes +20 tons of water to extinguish a Tesla vehicle battery fire. A combustion engine needs, on average, 3 tons of water to extinguish. Not so ESG-friendly are EVs?
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/watch-electric-bus-paris-spontaneously-explodes
This happens when buses get 5 or 6 years old and after repeated fast charges of the lithium battery pack – this causes the battery’s interconnects to overheat and then short out. So far 149 Paris BlueBus have been taken off line and the bus system transport system has almost collapse. Same reason the US Post Office did not buy thousands of electric cars.
It should be mandatory for EV vehicles to have mechanical door latches to facilitate an easy bail out in case of fire. I don’t believe Teslas have this. People have been burned alive. Nobody talks about this.
Congratulations to all nerds that bought an “electric car” with li-ion batteries to save the planet.
Soon to they’ll be forbidden and only allowed the ones with bateries that are certified not to enter into thermal runnaway/explode: LTO, Lipefo4…
How do you extinguish electric vehicle battery fires?
The answer is you can’t. A fine mist of water is sprayed on the fire to try to keep the temperature down until it finishes burning. It takes a few days until it is safe.
Besides being highly flammable, lithium is the lightest metal, with an atomic number 3. Lithium is so light, it floats on water, so lithium will blaze away while sitting on top of water.
Lithium melts at 180C / 356F, and burns at 2000C / 3632F – almost hot enough to melt steel, more than hot enough to destroy most composites and metals like aluminum.
The fumes from a burning lithium fire are highly toxic, capable of causing death or long term dementia like brain injuries, so you need to keep members of the public at a safe distance. Fire fighters need to wear respirators if they approach the flame.
Count on insurance rates going up with this nonsense…
Thermal runaway is an uncontrolled reaction that can occur in lithium-ion batteries. Damage to the battery or a short-circuit can cause heat and pressure to build up in the battery. If this reaches a certain level it triggers chemical reactions that generate more heat and pressure, causing a positive-feedback loop.
Thermal runaway can quickly spread from one battery to the next, leading to catastrophic explosions and fire. By-products of thermal runaway may include large amounts of flammable hydrogen and other toxic fluoroorganic gases.
You can. But not with water. Use sand, very carefully do as not to make the burning material “splash.” First surround, then cover, working from the outside in. It will eventually smother itself.
There are special fire extinguishers for combustible metal fires, and you do not use them the same way as a regular one.
I sincerely doubt any fire department is really equipped to do this, especially on a car-sized scale.
Ironically enough, in my neck of the woods, the only fire department most likely able to put out an electric car battery fire is the privately owned BP oil refinery fire department. It is equipped to fight chemical fires that most municipal fire departments would have no idea how to fight. It’s likely one of the best fire departments not only in the US but the world.
A huge problem coming for the lithium battery EV buyers today……..Congratulations to all nerds that bought an “electric car” with li-ion batteries to save the planet.
Soon to they’ll be forbidden and only allowed the ones with batteries that are certified not to enter into thermal runaway/explode: LTO, Lipefo4…
Eric, Biden’s subsidy is even more evil. He would keep the $7,500 subsidy for all electrics, however, the bigger $12,500 subsidy would only apply to cars manufactured in UAW plants.
Now wait a minute. Let’s talk about that tax credit. Unless you have that same amount of taxes due, that credit amount is not going to help you as much as being implied by the government.
They are NOT just handing you $12,500 or even $7,500. That’s why it is still primarily something that helps people that could afford it in the first place.
Also, IIRC (but the tax code has changed since Orange Man), credits like that come off before your standard deduction. Doesn’t it? You can only get credited or deducted to zero. They’re not going to give you anything beyond what you’ve paid in other words. So it could be a wash depending on the circumstances and your taxable income.
I’m making pretty decent money and could maybe afford a $50K loan today. Maybe but it would hurt and that’s probably the VERY LAST thing I’d do in an economy as effed-up as we’re currently enduring.
If the economy in the trash with hyper-inflation wasn’t in the picture AND I had $50K burning a hole in pocket, there are just SO MANY used ICE vehicles I’d rather have.
So there again, even if it wasn’t a stupid idea during these times, it’d still be the VERY LAST thing that I’d be doing with that money (and debt) during a favorable economy.
Further, that battery thing costing a fortune in about 5-years for any new car. Screw that! Sink all that money, endure all that inconvenience, to get something I’d rather not have and then face it being a un-resellable car 5 years later (or face 5-digit bill for new batter)?
No way. I’ll nurse a used ICE as long as humanly possible. Thank you very much!
Let’s take a practical example. Say that, as an individual, you ended up with “taxable income” of $50K. Your tax would be $6,754 (per the published IRS tax tables for 2021).
A $12,500 credit will reduce your taxable income (not your tax) to $37,500. You would then owe $4,304. A reduction of theft of a mere $2,450 for an individual with $50K taxable income.
OK, let’s look at a family situation. Let’s say you and your spouse, filling jointly have $80K taxable income. You would owe $9,205 of income tax without the credit. With the credit your taxable income drops to $67,500 and you would then owe $7,705. A reduction of only $1,500 of your tax bill for a freaking $12,500 credit!
Say that, in that family situation, you bought two EVs and therefore got a whopping $25,000 credit (which is HUGE TBH). Well your taxable income would be reduced to $55,000 and you would then owe $6,205 which means a reduction of $3,000 on your tax bill for the year.
If you’re a broke-ass fool with a degree in gender studies working at Starbucks, you’re probably making about $30,750 (at $15 hour). The standard deduction ($12,550) brings your taxable income down to $18,200 and you would owe $1,988 in income tax. With the credit you income drops way down to $5,700! Lucky you now only owe $573 for a net reduction of $1,415 dollars.
Bottom line, they’re bullshitting people into thinking, “Hey! $12,500 in my pocket to help pay for the EV!!” which is just a lie. That’s exactly what they want you to think and that’s exactly how it DOES NOT work.
Summary:
– Individual w/ $50K taxable income: $2,450 reduction of income tax due
– Family w/ $80K taxable income (one EV credit): $1,500 reduction of income tax due
– Family w/ $80K taxable income (two EV credit): $3,000 reduction of income tax due
– Pink Haired Starbucks employee (single of course): $1,415 reduction of income tax due
And that’s to take on a $50K+ debt.
That’s good info EM. Thank you.
EM,
Here’s a Car & Driver article about how the tax credit works, and it’s like you said.
https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32586259/how-ev-tax-credits-work/#:~:text=EV%20Tax%20Credits%20are%20non-refundable%20tax%20credits%20that,decrease%20taxes%20you%20owed%20in%20a%20given%20year.
EM, you are mistaken. You are describing a “tax deduction”, but this is a “tax credit”. I’ve talked to my tax accountant about this a while ago. One of the joys of being partially self employed is that taxes get real complicated and you have to hire tax accountants.
That $7,500 directly reduces your tax liability by $7,500. So, if you only pay $6k in federal income tax, you can’t deduct more than $6k to get a refund. However, if you do pay more than $7,500 in tax, then you get all that back!
OppositeLock, right you are. It’s been a while since I’ve done taxes manually. I got the credit/deduction thing confused. I think, when I used to do taxes manually, things worked a lot differently than they do now. But thanks for the correction.
That’s a deduction (reduces your taxable income)
A credit comes off of your final tax bill, generally only until you owe zero.
A refundable credit comes off your tax bill, and allows you to go negative (I.e. not only do you owe no tax, you also can get money back that you never paid in).
It appears my other post today is backed up by Lew Rockwell. He doesn’t often write and put it on the front page but he has today. https://lewrockwell.us7.list-manage.com/track/click?u=6ad24f4cd1574f1f7b8a0a03a&id=fb2c126098&e=62e95e6f13
Every time the government subsidizes anything, the prices will rise even higher. Even worse is that Russia is the world’s largest producer of nickel, (boycotts anyone)? While China is the largest producer of lithium and has the majority of the market concerning everything solar. Nickel and lithium are the major components of EV batteries.
The average Joe can barely afford new or used autos much less anything EV. The average person needs to prepare and “batton down the hatches” as much as possible. The “shitstorm” is cranking up and the Regime has over 2 1/2 more years or more to further their destruction. And don’t believe for a second that a McCarthy led House and a McConnell led Senate will stop it much less reverse it. Those 2 clowns will help drive “the dagger in the back” deeper!
No, we can’t afford it. We will be even less able to afford it when Biden makes good on his promise to strip mine the southwestern U.S. for lithium, cobalt, and other metals we get cheap on the backs of slave labor from Congo and Tibet. The EPA and other environmental regulators, combined with the fact that most people working really hard for a living make at least $25 an hour, here in the U.S. will push up the prices of those batteries astronomically. I have a piece on this in my head. Hopefully I’ll get it published soon and send a link your way.
Turning the entire country into a communist state is Biden’s(well, probably Obama) ultimate desire. There are already FEMA camps built in Ms. where your outside wall is the same wall that is the neighbor’s wall. I’ve seen them, arranged in quarter mile lengths with another run 40 feet away. Have no doubt about it, the Dem’s somehow think they’ll be the only people with power and money and everyone else will be on the govt. dole. I think the Republicans are very worried about it. If they turn it around and the Republicans take over, then we can worry about them doing the same thing. wish I could go to that remote HQ Hitler had built in Venezuela and see if people still don’t live there or it’s just another place controlled by a cartel.
A good old nuclear war is the ultimate goal(countless places have been built in remote US locations by the rich so they’ll be able to survive(possibly) one Gill Bates gets his most fervent wish and 4-6 million people are killed off. Looking at his gut now, you’d think he’s stocking up and constantly making sure everything is food perfection……for him.
No, all these major food processors and animal growers haven’t been set afire, they’re just naturally combusting. Start watching Johnny B on YT. He’s heavy into finding out just what is going on with the food supply and Gill Bates and other old money buying up the crop land in this country.
There is no such thing as a “bad” tax reprieve. ALL “tax credits/deductions” are inherently good. ALL of these so-called “tax loopholes” are inherently good. These are ALL instances of so-called “tax expenditures.” Whatever the mechanism or the name applied to that mechanism, these are ALL reductions in the in the total quantity of taxes collected. LESS plunder overall ALWAYS makes our world a better place!
A “tax” is, by definition, an involuntary seizure of an individual’s property by force or threat of force. Taxation is nothing more than institutionalized disregard for individual property rights, without which there can be no peace. As such, “taxation” can NEVER be civil. Taxation is simply a euphemism for the institutionalized
extortion/theft/expropriation of an individual’s life force/work product. Euphemism is, perhaps, the most rudimentary form of sophistry. So, “taxation” is simply a nice name applied to an otherwise abhorrent practice.
The very concept of a “tax expenditure” as applied by politicians, i. e., professional sophists, to these tax credits/deductions/loopholes is nothing more than a perversion of the language to conceal the unspoken assumption that ALL PROPERTY and,by extension, ALL INDIVIDUALS, belong FIRST to the State, i. e., the Collective. That is, the State is assuming a prior claim over an individual”s body, life force, and work product for the “greater good of the collective.”
State spending ALWAYS expands to consume ALL the revenue, that is, plunder, available to it. The State is NOT a Voluntary Institution. The State is a Social Cancer that arises wherever and to the extent that there is a desire to shirk Personal Responsibility. There is, by definition, NO effective negative feedback control to provide an effective check on it’s spending/activities. It asserts the right to just take whatever it wants from individuals. Its spending expands, just like air expands to fill a balloon. It’s budget, therefore, tends toward Infinity.
Those who disparage so-called “tax expenditures” whether they take the form of tax deductions, tax credits, or, heaven forbid, tax loopholes are implicitly assuming that the state deigns to raise only a fixed/finite amount of revenue/plunder and no more. Just like with a dam whose floodgates are opened, there’s no telling the water where to go. Just like expecting the air in an inflating balloon to stay on only one side of the balloon. State spending ALWAYS expands to consume ALL resources available to it.
It’s the same argument that many make when they assume that immigrants “deprive Americans of jobs.” They naively, implicitly assume that there is only a fixed number of “jobs” in America, and that immigrants are “stealing” those jobs. But to be able to even name whatever that number is implicitly assumes that an economy can be “planned,” from top down. But this is impossible, since ALL knowledge is LOCAL. The first lesson of Economics is that ALL resources are finite/scarce, and that Human Desires are Infinite. But there’s only so much energy/stuff in the world to fulfill those desires. If anything, these immigrants ADD to the resources available to the economy! I can afford to have my yard/gardens manicured and my roof fixed due to the availability of these hard-working immigrants!
In the same way, if the State is consuming LESS resources, there will be MORE resources available to the voluntary economy. Therefore, ANYTHING that can be done to REDUCE the plundered resources available to the State, consequently reduces the Mischief it can engage in. Tax credits/deductions/loopholes reduce the resources available to the State/Collective. Tax credits/deductions/loopholes, even if they involve Electric Vehicles, serve to STARVE the State/Collective. The less resources available to the State/Collectve, the fewer resources they have to promulgate/enforce all the other meddling involving vehicles, as well as everything else. And that’s ALWAYS a BEAUTIFUL THING!
“If anything, these immigrants ADD to the resources available to the economy! I can afford to have my yard/gardens manicured and my roof fixed due to the availability of these hard-working immigrants!”
Absurd. By far, most of “these hard-working immigrants” become welfare parasites. If they vote, they do so for whichever anti-White party promises them more “free” stuff.
That’s why the Welfare State, in ALL it’s manifestations, including Publik Skool, needs to go!
Eric:
Why can’t you just celebrate Lia’s perfectly legitimate win and Pete Buttigieg’s successful pregnancy and allow this EV “incentive” to go forward without any critical thought? Why, you’re just a climate denier hellbent on LGBTQRSTUV+ disinformation!
Gubmiint subsidizes many things that would not otherwise exist in a free market. The worst is left-wing media. Without hidden subsidies, the likes of the New York Times, MSNBC, PBS, NPR and other left media “influencers” would not exist. Aside from the support that the subsidy provides, it also allows gubmint (while pretending a free market exists) to point to those enterprises as evidence of the voice of the people. They’ll claim that this left-wing media (or other subsidized sector) could not exist without public demand for it.
The lies in modern society run very deep!
Clearly there are shortcomings when it comes to electric vehicles. Just like any new technology. An automobile in 1880 wasn’t going to compete with a horse and buggy. It wasn’t until nearly 40 years later that the technology surpassed horses. Electric cars have had a tougher development timeline but are getting closer. The problem is trying to shoehorn them into infrastructre designed for ICE vehicles. Early personal computers couldn’t hold a candle to even low-end mainframe timeshare systems in processing power. In fact it really wasn’t until the early 2000s that generic microchips would surpass big iron ASIC processors. But they created a specialized market niche with people who wanted to work out an idea on their own time, without having to justify machine cycles to the sysops. Electric cars are still in that specialized market stage, despite decades of development.
Interesting to note that electric vehciles have existed in parallel with internal combustion for nearly all that time, in forms like street cars, trains, forklifts and golf cars. In those iterations they work well. The evolutionay nature of the marketplace should eventually make the advantages of electric vehicles worth replacing ICE vehicles, if there are any (I think there are clear advantages, but not with the current vehicles and their adaptation of ICE design).
‘without having to justify machine cycles to the sysops’ — ReadyKilowatt
Sysop Joe Biden says no more fossil-fueled machine cycles for you.
Violators will be shackled to an IBM 29 card punch machine for the day.
Hi RK,
Yeah, but EVs are not “new technology.” They are 120-plus-year-old technology – and that technology is still plagued by the same problems that plague the current ones (cost/limited range/recharge time) exacerbated by the likes of Elon, who made them heavier in orser to be quicker so as to give them one thing they could tout as superior to IC powered cars.
The market said no to EVs some 100 years ago. Now the government is saying yes to them.
Hi Eric
Mercedes EV vs VW diesel fuel economy
travelling 100 miles in an average EV uses 1.03 gallons equivalent of fuel = 34.7 kwh of electricity @ $0.16 per kwh = $5.55, that is the net amount, at the power plant 4 gallons of fuel were burnt to get a net 1 gallon of fuel equivalent 34.7 kwh used by the EV. If they paid the full cost it would = $22.20
(under not ideal conditions this can easily double = $11.10).
under ideal conditions but at top speed this mercedes EV used 90 kwh of electricity in 100 miles which = 3 gallons of gas
Under not ideal conditions the EV efficiency drops a lot, might use twice as much energy to go 100 miles. Using the electric heater and the rear defroster and wipers in an EV reduces range. In very cold conditions the battery range can drop 50%. If the range drops 50% it costs twice as much to go 100 miles
travelling 100 miles in a 50 mpg diesel powered car uses 2 gallons of fuel
Thermal efficiency of power plants using coal, petroleum, natural gas or nuclear fuel and converting it to electricity are around 33% efficiency, natural gas is around 40%. Then there is average 6% loss in transmission, then there is a 5% loss in the charger, another 5% loss in the inverter, the electric motor is 90% efficient so another 10% loss before turning the electricity into mechanical power at the wheels.
33% – 6% – 5% – 5% – 10% = 25% efficiency for EV’s.
(under not ideal conditions it might be 12% efficient).
An Ev is 25% efficient in turning original source of energy, petroleum in this example into mechanical energy to push the car down the road.
So to end up with 34.7 kwh of electricity which is equivalent to 1.02 gallons of gas to push the EV 100 miles down the road 4.08 gallons of fuel were burnt to generate the electricity in the power station, remember net 25% efficiency.
The mercedes EV used 90 kwh of electricity to go 100 miles = 3 gallons of gas, but to get that 90 kwh of energy 12 gallons of petroleum were burnt at the power plant.
90 kwh@ $0.16 per kwh = $14.40 12 gallons of fuel were burnt at the power plant for $14.40 = $1.20 per gallon
travelling 100 miles in a 50 mpg diesel uses 2 gallons of fuel @ $4.00 per gallon = $8.00
So it cost $14.40 for the Mercedes EV to go 100 miles. It cost the diesel car owner $8.00 to go 100 miles.
There is an additional cost for the EV owner: the tesla $22,000 battery is used up, worn out in 100,000 miles. this works out to $22.00 per 100 miles it is costing you for the battery. So the EV owner has to pay another $22.00 per 100 miles to pay for the battery, the diesel car owner doesn’t have that extra cost.
The Mercedes EV owner paid $1.20 per gallon for fuel. The diesel owner paid $4.00 per gallon. One reason is the diesel owner is paying up to 50% tax in the fuel cost, partly to pay for the roads, the EV owner paid no tax in the fuel and uses the roads for free. The tax payers are subsidizing the cost of the electricity the EV owner is using.
burning 4 gallons or 12 gallons of fuel to go 100 miles is cleaner, safer, less wasteful then burning 2 gallons of fuel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BSdq-MpPdg&t=113s
Well, the diesel engine dos not last forever, so, to be accurate, you should include the cost of a diesel engine rebuild in your calculation.
Supposing the diesel lasts 400,000 miles (?) until it needs rebuilding, then 1/4 the engine rebuild cost should be factored in per 100,000 miles driven.
But it doesn’t stop there. IC engines require some kind of change gear transmission, whether manual or automatic, because IC engines generate zero torque at zero RPM, unlike electric motors. Then there is the clutch…which an IC engine needs, but an EV does not. Clutches wear out, and replacing a clutch plate is major repair, because the transmission must be dropped to access the clutch assembly.
So, by all means, compare costs, but let’s compare apples to apples. If you omit a crucial maintenance cost, for either technology, then you have not done your homework, and knowledgeable people should pay you no mind.
Just sayin…
(cost/limited range/recharge time)
They have improved by a fair amount. We are so conditioned by Moore’s Law to expect everything electrical to get exponentially better every few years. That’s clearly not going to happen with electric motors, batteries and body materials that go into electric vehicles. They are improving, incrementally, but at a tremendous investment that probably should be used to make better ICE vehicles, like the Skyactiv D we’ll never see.
RK: “The evolutiona[r]y nature of the marketplace should eventually make the advantages of electric vehicles worth replacing ICE vehicles. . .”
There’s not a free marketplace for EVs though. Also, the marketplace does not necessarily cause a given technology to “evolve” to greatness over time. In looking back at history it may seem that way, but that’s just an illusion. The free market causes the most efficient and effective technologies to rise to the top. The ones that are not go by the wayside (unless later subsidized).
Steam power Steam/BEV vs Steam/V
External combustion engines, steam engines, were dropped 100 years ago because they weren’t energy efficient, that has changed with new technology.
with BEV’s we are right back to external combustion, boiling water, steam power. Why do it remotely? it is too complicated, expensive, wasteful.
A BEV and a steam/V are both steam powered but the Steam/V skips the huge expensive, dangerous battery, the power grid, etc…
Thermal efficiency of power plants using coal, petroleum, natural gas or nuclear fuel (boiling water to power a steam turbine to drive a generator, converting it to electricity) are around 33% efficiency, natural gas is around 40%. Then there is average 6% loss in transmission, then there is a 5% loss in the charger, another 5% loss in the inverter, the electric motor is 90% efficient so another 10% loss before turning the electricity into mechanical power at the wheels.
33% – 6% – 5% – 5% – 10% = 25% efficiency for BEV’s.
(under not ideal conditions, like if it is very cold, it might be 12% efficient).
A modern steam/V is up to 60% efficient.
If you are just boiling water just bring back steam powered cars, do it in the car and skip the big expensive power grid, very heavy expensive dangerous battery, the charger, converter, electric motor, just have a steam engine, they have the same advantage as a BEV, 100% torque at one rpm,
steam/V engines have another huge advantage over BEV’s, (low rpm) The 1925 Doble Steam Car could out-accelerate the mighty Model J Duesenberg of 1930, doing 0 to 75 mph in just 5 seconds, , (zero to 60 in 4 sec.), with its engine turning over at less than 1,000 rpm, (BEV electric motors are very high rpm), Hughes’ did 133 mph in his tweaked Doble.
If you want more secure, continuous mobility get a steam powered vehicle, there will always be some sort of fuel available, no other engine has that flexibility, the other advantages are, no spark plugs (ignition system needed), no cooling system, no transmission required, no electronics, 100% mechanical, goes 600,000 miles without an overhaul, the greatest dependability, lasts 100’s of years.
Steam/V advantage over BEV:
Steam/V 600,000 miles without an overhaul, tesla BEV battery dead in 100,000 miles/ten years so is then scrap value.
Steam/V 1500 mile range on 17 gallons of water. BEV has a very short range, Mercedes BEV at top speed on highway = 100 miles.
Steam/V engines are very low rpm, the tesla motor turns up to 19,000 rpm, these BEV motors are way too high rpm, will wear out quickly . The tesla battery lasts ten years, the motors are probably worn out too.
Steam/V has no cooling system a BEV does
No heater required, a BEV needs an energy wasting add on heater.
Steam/V has no huge battery
Steam/V refuels in 3 minutes, no need for hours of recharging time.
Steam/V runs in very cold conditions
EV is the worst choice, steam engines don’t lose 50% in efficiency in very cold weather, they don’t eat up more energy for heat for the car, they don’t need 1000 lb, very expensive, rapidly wearing out, dangerous batteries, they don’t take hours to charge, they aren’t dependent on non existing or defective chargers with huge lineups, they don’t have to be towed, just bring more fuel, they use multiple fuels, some fuels are free.
There is a new technology steam engine for your car or truck, etc., it is 30% to 60% energy efficient which is better then EV’s, gas or diesel engines. It has lower emissions then EV’s gas or diesel engines.
NOTE: If the steam/V burned hydrogen for a heat source it would be zero emissions.
It has full torque at one rpm so requires no transmission, it can run in reverse so no reverse gear required.
Cyclone Engine, a high-efficiency, modern American steam engine.
Cyclone Engine is a eco-friendly external combustion engine (EXE), ingeniously designed to achieve high thermal efficiencies through a compact heat-regenerative process, and to run on virtually any fuel –
from gasoline and diesel to green alternatives like locally grown bio-fuels, an “all-fuel” combustion engine that can operate on biofuels, synthetic gas and solar energy. It can also run off waste heat, like a truck exhaust system or geo thermal.
Old school steam power
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo
The 1925 Doble Steam Car could out-accelerate the mighty Model J Duesenberg of 1930, doing 0 to 75 mph in just 5 seconds, (zero to 60 in 4 sec.) with its engine turning over at less than 1,000 rpm, and it could sustain speeds of 95 mph right from the factory.Hughes’ did 133 mph in his tweaked Doble. One Doble steam/V got up to 180 mph before it flew off the road.
The Doble steam car 1909 to 1931.
But, but, but, what about John Conyers’ “good and welfare” clause of the Constitution?
Oops. Posted the “good and welfare” post in the wrong spot.
The delusion that the government can hand out “free’ money is one of many contributors to our downfall. It’s only “free” for those who receive it. And not always for them, as the government first steals it from them before it grants it to them. Or, in the current system, taken from your great great great grandchildren. The US government is deeply involved in the death spiral of using one credit card to pay off another credit card.
Too true John,
So many people I know think they’ve won the lottery when they get a big tax “refund”. I don’t even bother anymore trying to explain that they’re just getting their own money back. Mass enstupidation courtesy of government indoctrination, aka public schools.
What do Lia and the electric car have in common? Neither a trans woman or EV is the real thing, both cheat by way of government mandates to get ahead. As for small businesses being closed by .gov even the Wally World staff I know said that was BS but it was the smartest virus on the planet; as if a couple pieces of cotton could make a difference walking into a restaurant but not needing it to eat . As for the Ford Lightning just look at how much more it costs than a regular F-150. I bet you buy a lot of gas for that. In the end look at life cycle costs and you’ll know that there’s no way an EV will last as long with the equivalent maintenance but maybe “they” don’t want it to?
‘And that the government can remedy – by increasing the tax-bribe to $12,500.’ — eric
Subsidize a million EV sales (up from 600,000 in 2012) at $12,500 each. That makes $12.5 billion.
Is that big money? Not to the US fedgov’s cavalier currency counterfeiters, who are digitally printing this year’s $1.3 trillion deficit without raising a sweat.
When you can just print currency, seemingly without consequence, you do stupid stuff like throwing another $33 billion into a conflict between former Soviet republics on the other side of the planet. $33 billion is small change to ‘Biden.’
The authorities are batshit insane. They’ve now reached the ‘pull out the wrecking bar and start smashing stuff’ phase.
Hunker down; you have been warned.
No to mention that the “new and improved” subsidy will be paid out of funds the Psychopaths In Charge don’t have. Which means they will have to borrow, as in have the Fed print up, more money to implement it. Thus enhancing our suicidal inflation.
Adding to your demographic profile of the typical EV “buyer”, I’d guess they’re looking forward to the Biden-thing cancelling their amassed student debt for a degree in gender studies.
No president has the legitimate authority to
mandate the subsidy of anything.
Tenth Amendment:
“The powers not delegated to the United
States by the Constitution, nor prohibited
by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people.”
“When a self-governing people confer upon their
government the power to take from some to give
to others, the process will not stop until the
last bone of the last taxpayer is picked bare.”
But, but, but, what about John Conyers’ “good and welfare” clause of the Constitution?
Even the real “general welfare clause” is actually nothing of the kind. Any who can effectively read English can clearly see that it is an APOLOGY, for taking authority to lay and collect taxes. Which is almost immediately followed by a list of the federal governments powers and authority, which do not mention “general welfare”.