A riding buddy of mine urges me to buy a disposable bike – though of course he does not call it that. He means a modern bike – which means a bike unlike any of the ones I own, all of which aren’t computers on two wheels.
He ticks off all of the modern bike’s advantages, as he sees them. I myself do not see them. But I do see a number of disadvantages, the chief of them being the disposability of modern, computer-controlled bikes.
I point to my bikes as a counterpoint. Two of them – my ’75 Kawasaki S1 triple and my ’76 Kz900 – are nearly 50 years old and both of them will start right up whenever I want to ride them, which is a remarkable thing given they are almost 50 years old.
Actually, it’s not that remarkable – because they aren’t computer controlled.
My friend – who is a professional mechanic – says a modern, computer-controlled (and fuel-injected) bike will start right up, every time. But I pointed out to him that my carbureted bikes that do not have computer controls also start right up. The difference is will the computer-controlled bike start in 20 years from now? And also what happens when the they don’t start right up, right now . . . the modern, computer-controlled bike vs. a bike without a computer.
If that happens with my bikes, it can only be due to a few things, easily checked and fixed with basic tools. The carbs (most multi-cylinder motorcycle engines have a carburetor for each cylinder) may need to be adjusted. In italics to make a point about fiddling with something vs. replacing something. EFI works very well – until one day, it doesn’t. Often, you willnot get any warning, either. Because electronically controlled things are like that.
Then you will probably need to replace electronic components, which means if the bike won’t start and you’re not home, you will need to get a ride home and haul the bike there, too. Or to a shop, if you haven’t got the necessary equipment (and knowledge) to isolate the problem and replace the part(s) that need replacing.
With carburetors, it’s rarely something that needs to be replaced. More usually a screw that needs to be turned, a choke adjusted; something cleaned, etc. There is nothing electronic to check and so nothing electronic to worry about.
If the fuel is flowing through the carb – easy to see because you can see (you can’t with EFI) then the only other thing left to check is the spark. Pull a plug wire off and put a spare plug in; ground it on the bike and crank the engine. If you have a nice hot blue spark, the ignition’s probably ok. If not, there are only a few simple parts that might need attention.
And all of those parts are inexpensive. Maybe $30 for a coil; $40 for a rectifier. There’s not much else to it.
Fuel, air and spark. Elemental, as a motorcycle ought to be.
I pointed this out to my friend, who maybe prefers the modern stuff because he likes to get new bikes more often than I do. I don’t because my bikes work just fine – so why replace them? I do occasionally add a new (old) one to the stable. But only because I found another interesting old bike that I know will start up for the next 50 years (provided I am around that long) with very little wanted from me beyond keeping the carbs clean and the gas tank full of fresh fuel.
My S1 (which has points) will start up even after an EMP detonation. Not that I have it for that reason, but it’s a perk.
The biggest perk, though, is being disconnected from unnecessary, alienating elaborateness. I am not a Luddite but why does a bike need “drive by wire” throttle? Or an LCD touchscreen that is not going to last 50 years or probably even 20 and after five or so will be as cheesy-looking and dated as an Atari screen from the ’80s? When it glitches out in ten years from now, will you even be able to find a replacement for it? Can you find a ten-year-old working replacement smartphone and would you want one?
All of my bikes have analog gauges – real (physical) needles that sweep across a face screened with numbers. It is – to me – a counterpoint and repudiation, even, of the ticky-tacky smartphone emulating display screens that look cheap because they are cheap. Why do you suppose car manufacturers (almost all of them) have replaced gauge clusters with LCD screens? If you answered – because it’s cheaper to manufacturer/install and so more profitable – go to the head of the class.
Such things are also more disposable – which makes things even more profitable. Especially if you have to replace the vehicle because its interfaces and controls no longer work – or are “no longer supported.”
Motorcycle manufacturers are headed down the same road – for the same reason. Plastic is cheap – especially when it is made in China. So are electronics. Things made of metal with mechanical parts wear but can be repaired, usually. They are thus inherently less disposable because they don’t have to be thrown away and replaced.
The entirely mechanical, analog speedos that came with my bikes when they were new 50 years ago are still working today, almost half a century later. The tachometers are mechanically driven, too – if you can imagine that.
Yes, I know. My bikes don’t all those neat-o programmable “modes” and it’s up to me to keep the front wheel down and the shiny side up.
But I kind of like it that way.
. . .
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So, you have another ‘riding buddy’? I’m crushed.
Digital watches, flat screens, digital displays….a sign of low quality, short life, cheap crap…..
Even the high end luxury and sports cars are full of this junk….short life = more frequent replacement sales…
For watches, digital is cheap crap….
High end watches….the million dollar watches… all have analog, hand made, mechanical movements….beautiful artwork… the old mechanical analog cars….the same thing….
I’ve never had a million dollar watch but I did once own a pretty decent mechanical watch, a Maratac based on a Miyota 9015 (24 jewel). It was neat but I didn’t like working on my 1985 Toyota or riding mountain bikes with it so I ended up going back to my old G-Shock for daily wear. I found I prefer a lower profile watch so got a new G-Shock that has solar charging and sets itself to the WWV atomic clocks automatically every night. I won’t hand it down to my kids or anything but if it’s anything like the TS1000 I got for Christmas 1983 and still have, I think it’s practical enough for me. That old Casio case plastic has disintegrated but it still reads time fine. But considering that watch went to several Boy Scout trips including Philmont, through years of climbing, skiing and everything else until I got a Timex Expedition in the late 90s, I don’t have much room to complain. I thought I wanted watch hands but in truth I kind of like a stopwatch and alarm so that I don’t have to carry a smart phone!
Do bike owners do more wrenching then car owners?
There was a discussion about who buys Porsche’s…..
Some buy them for prestige…….
Some buy them because they like driving them…..the driving experience…
Some may buy them…older collectible ones….and other collectible cars….as an investment…or maybe just to look at them…they never drive them….
There was no mention of another group…..people that like to wrench on their cars…or bikes….
I would say yes, more wrencher bike owners than cars.
Just had my first experience with a modern Porsche. We finally got my aged mom (89) to fricken finally spend some money. “MOM! spend it, we don’t want/need it” The kids know that free money doesn’t work. She a car buff, MG’s, RX7’s was the furthest she went, but always wanted a fancy sports car. we fianlly get her to the Porsche dealer. And she buys one of cheapest one’s on the lot, a base Cayan, about 63K, and guess what? It’s a dam nice car relative to many other 60K’s SUV’s. I’m impressed by almost everything about it.
The issue with older bikes is getting parts. This is especially a problem with perishable rubber parts and gaskets. Whenever I consider getting an older carbureted model (even from the 90s or early 2000s), I have a look at the parts fiche and see all the parts that are no longer available, then decide against it. Case in point is my 19 year old Honda ST1300 which other than fuel injection and an adjustable windscreen, is fairly basic. The ECU is no longer available and it’s throwing an FI code (it still runs okay even when the code is thrown though – service manual says “operates normally”), which has me wondering how long I can keep the bike supported (this is a known issue for other Hondas from this era – Goldwing, Blackbird etc. as well). I could buy a used ECU off eBay, but they’re not cheap and who’s to say how long it will last.
Hi Robbie,
I have never had any difficulty finding parts for my ’76 Kz900 or my ’83 Honda GL650!
Hey Eric. Are you able to get OEM parts or third party? I’m sure it helps to have a popular model with a good following. I know Harley and BMW support their older bikes better than some other manufacturers (including Honda).
Hi Robbie,
Both! There is ample support for the old Kaw Zeds. And even weirdo Hondas like my ’83 GL650 are easy to keep going, so far at least!
I’ll chime in, while you may be right, a FI code does not necessarily mean it’s an ECU problem. As I’ve experienced in the past with FI lights/codes it’s can sometimes be a sensor that sends data to the ECU.
In one case my FI code was an air box temp sensor (that I screwed up the pins when plugging it back in).
Just an idea.
Just have to ring in on this one, the shiny new electronic laden bike will set you back 5-12k while I’m seeing nice clean UJMs like the beloved CB750 going for under 2. Or newer Jap Harleys going begging for 2500.
The only ones with high resale are Harleys and BMWs, and while I do love my R75/5 I would never pay the inflated market price for it. (I bought it at a rummage sale for $150, brought it home as a frame and 4 boxes of parts.)
‘car manufacturers (almost all of them) have replaced gauge clusters with LCD screens’ — eric
The first digital watch … ‘was introduced to the public in the 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey. Director Stanley Kubrick asked Hamilton Watch Co. to create the futuristic digital clock for his film. Hamilton’s prototype “Wrist Computer” was unveiled on the Tonight Show by Johnny Carson on May 5, 1970. Upon hearing the $1,500 price tag for the production model, Carson quipped: “The watch will tell you the exact moment you went bankrupt!” — pabook.libraries.psu.edu
All well and good — and a tribute to the fanatical genius of Stanley Kubrick. But the digital watch was a movie prop for a sci-fi film. In 2022, Swatch, which earned its chops selling cheap digital watches, introduced MoonSwatches. They are — wait for it — all analog. See for yourself:
https://www.gq.com/story/omega-speedmaster-experts-pick-favorite-moonswatch-box-papers-9-13-24
When even relatively low-end watches revert back to analog, there’s message here for out-to-lunch vehicle makers and their square-headed, plastic pocket protector-equipped designers.
A six-figure luxury car with a digital display is a tasteless joke. It’s like buying a $5,000 linen suit and then sticking a paper napkin in the breast pocket instead of a silk handkerchief. You’re never gonna make the cover of GQ … or even get a date. 🙁
Just to take the old school a little deeper, here’s a review of highly-efficient Klipsch horn speakers, driven by vacuum-tube amplifiers, fed from vinyl discs:
https://archive.ph/yL8Mr
Do not attempt this with digital streaming, CDs, or digital amplifiers. You will fail.
You’ve correctly hit on why we build tube preamplifiers here in the USA for better home music reproduction. They make all the solid state amplifiers sound much better, and except for easily replacing the tubes on occasion, they should still be working fine in 50 years, long after the solid state amps have been replaced due to failure somewhere on the custom surface mount pc boards that won’t be available in
a few years. Have a look at tenoctaveaudio.com .
I myself LOVE ANALOG.
To me analog means real and genuine. While digital = fake. A copy, replicated to reproduce something that was real.
Does digital have its place and usefulness? Yes, of course.. just like gunpowder is useful for making bullets and dynamite.. these can be used for hunting for food of moving obstructions when building a railroad or highway.
Dynamite can and is also used to make bombs for deliberately killing people.
It is all in the intent.
So if used for good digital can be helpful and convenient.. and have its place. But since it is mostly being used today for nefarious reasons it is harder for me to embrace the whole digital concept. Especially when ‘as Eric points out’ this digital garbage is not necessary for a happy, healthy quality of life in a free and natural world.
Seems to me that this digital revolution is unleashing some serious next-level evil on mankind.
As for my motorcycles, the last thing I want to do is try to stare at a cell phone screen when riding. Just give me two nice analog gauges – tachometer and speedometer with a mechanical trip meter I can also use as a fuel gauge = perfect!
It is a real bummer when your fuel pump quits with no warning on your first day of vacation in the mountains, leaving you stranded with nothing to ride the whole time, just to pick it up, pay the bill and load up for the long journey back home. Yup, that happened to the wife and I up in the Adirondack Mountains.
So again did I mention.. I LOVE ANALOG. 🙂
RE: Analog, yep.
A dial, numbers, and a moving pointer. Readouts that can tell where you were, where you are, and where you shouldn’t be all at a glance. A digital numerical reading? Your brain has to interpret that number – is 30 OK or should it be 40 at this engine speed?
Aircraft went to “glass cockpits” screens replaced dial gauges. However, many items displayed on those screens emulate the old analog gauges just for that reason – one glance can interpret many things at once this way.
Fair point on using dials for the user interface. Seeing time on a face with two hands gives you a feeling as to what part of the day you’re in, which is different than knowing the exact time. Humans are analog creatures, the world is analog, so presenting information and taking feedback without question works better in some ways than others.
That said, I don’t mind digital watches as mini wrist computers. Some features are useful, like an alarm, that aren’t as typically seen in analog interface watches. It should be mentioned that most watches aren’t really analog. If it says quartz movement it’s more like a digital watch that just has hands instead of an LCD display.
Someone mentioned it earlier, there’s a balance between some technology and too much. The few extra features such an alarm, stopwatch or calculator integrated into a wristwatch can be helpful without bring along the size and power requirements of a phone or computer. Plus a wristwatch is probably not spying on you by sends a constant stream of GPS locations to Big Brother.
But now the dials in most cars after about 1992 or so are interesting. They don’t have a speedometer cable driving gears but a sensor that spins where the cable used to be that sends a stream of pulses to the ECU which then drives a signal to drive the needle that is proportional to that pulse stream. Speedometers work almost the same way as a quartz watch with hands works, a stepper motor driving the needle.
You would think a MECHANIC of all people would be in your camp Eric. That is the part that is really getting me.
There has got to be so many vehicles he gets in his shop, that he doesn’t get to fix now-a days. Why? because they are electronic or software things that the manufacturer won’t let him fix. Or there are parts that are too expensive to replace so the vehicle is junked, or there simply aren’t any replacement parts at all, so its junked.
It has got to be costing him business. Is he that blind to that? Mechanics should be the front line of demanding repairability.
Another note: For all this talk of “green”, we have majorly gone AWAY from repairing things. Which is much further from being green. If anything things SHOULD be MORE repairable than not.
At the very least, Rich, I liked being able to perform the basics on my old vehicles: Change the oil, and do some basic repair maintenance. Hell, changing the head light bulb, even. I cannot even do that anymore, and it is just utterly stupid. I think it is all to get us dependent on someone else to service our vehicles. When once, that was not so much the case. And when SHTF, and you do not get your latest vaccine, etc. they can shut your vehicle off, shut off your bank accounts (which they can do already), etc. and if one is dumb enough to have a connected house, lock you out of your “smart devices”, as was the case with one man whose Alexa (I think it was) thought he made a racists comment and did just that! Aaah, and here is the news link. https://www.newsweek.com/amazon-smart-home-brandon-jackson-echo-racial-slur-allegation-1806947
“Works till it doesn’t”
Yep. The 2018 Road King is a blast, electric fuel pump, all computerized EFI, throttle by wire, catastrophic converter exhaust – all the modern stuff. No futzing.
Until last month. The cold start gremlin is back. Start, revs to the normal cold fast idle, then in 2 seconds stumbles to a near stall, struggles for about 5 seconds then back to normal. What’s the big deal? While this is happening the primary drive is banging around via the chain and compensating sprocket on the business end of the crankshaft, not healthy. The weather here is haywire so I haven’t been riding much. I’m hoping it’s a lame tank of gas but if not is it? Weepy fuel injector? The plastic intake manifold cracked? The ACRs (automatic compression release) hanging after start? Throttle position sensor? Low fuel pressure- pump? Pinhole in a fuel line inside the tank?
Today’s my riding day, I’ll refill on the way home and hope the fresh gas is the answer.
If not, it’s hours of work to try and sort this out. Runs fine warmed up and no trouble codes in the computer. Starting to miss my 2004 carb Road King. Gravity fed fuel always gets you home.
there are carb kits for your 2018 to convert it to analogue if you were unaware. Lot of stuff in the front to take off, but the metal in your bike is not all that different than one from 30 years ago
Would he also recommend a computer controlled lawn mower?
The advantage of motorcycles was simplicity. Just less stuff to break. Easier to fix what does, esp compared to modern cars.
Lawn stuff has been getting stuck with more electronics recently. Lean to the side a bit on your zero turn mower and see if it stays running or not……….
My 64’ Honda dream starts right up every spring, year after year.
My 2003 fuel injected Moto Guzzi is the only bike I’ve ever had leave me stranded by the road. In part because it’s Italian (LOL) but specifically because the fuel pump failed.
Gravity fed carbs aren’t dependent on high pressure in-tank fuel pumps.
Similarly, each spring after reconnecting the computer, the Guzzi needs several seconds of extended cranking to figure out crank position, cam position, throttle position, etc., before it finally starts. There is often a 1st cough before it starts.
The Honda Dream: open petcock, set choke, slow kick it over two strokes to get gas vapor flowing, turn ignition key on, kick it! Starts and purrs every year.
Your buddy is full of BS – I’m with you !! Disposable is absolutely correct most of these “modern” bikes won’t be serviceable 20 years down the road.
You are absolutely correct Eric. However, I will give the other side of the story. I do by modern bikes, many of them. I think I currently own 6. But you are spot on, they will not last very long term. My position is simple, I’m not going to last long term either.
Your bud is correct, in that the modern machines are amazing in what they do, and I certainly take advantage of these things, mostly for fun. Lots of fun.
Dirtbikes: a 10yr old unit can not compete with a modern one. I rotate these out of my garage every 3-4 yrs.
Adventure bikes: amazing capability compared to 5 yrs ago, I rotate out every 5yrs.
Touring bikes: same as adv bikes. What bike would I want to tour on to alaska? A new Goldwing hands down.
Just my opinion of course, and your way is absolutely justified, just different ways to enjoy them, and that’s all it should be about, do you enjoy them.
Yes, I’ve noticed that new bikes are now fuel injected but I wonder if any one makes kits to put carbs back onto them. But even if you accomplish that you will need to figure out how to rework the ignition and no doubt the speedometer is electronic. I doubt this new fangled stuff will be around even 25 years and if it is some Mad Max type of re-engineering will have been done to it.
One thing motorcycles have in favor of cars is that they’re generally not daily driven, at least in the United States. Reliability doesn’t need to be the priority. And fact is, mounting electronics on a vibrating engine and chassis that’s exposed to weather probably isn’t a good idea. Circuit boards crack, solder joints fail and moisture will corrode everything. There’s only so much that potting compound will do to protect electronics, and then you run into heat dissipation problems too.
“Reliability doesn’t need to be the priority.”
I beg to differ. Apparently you’ve never been 30 miles back into the National Forrests on a bike.
That’s a long walk or potentially days waiting for a vehicle to come by.
Good point. I was thinking road bikes.
You don’t want to get stranded on the road either! Here “out west” there are some very lonely long stretches with little traffic.
Idaho 28 from Mud Lake to Salmon, yikes! Breakdown in 105 temps where it’s you, the asphalt and sagebrush no thanks! No fence, no telephone lines, nothing. Done that run three times no breakdowns!
Stick with the old fashioned, 50 year old bikes, Eric. That used to be the joys of owning a vehicle, was (in the past) being able to work on it yourself. Hell, even with my ’07, I cannot change the headlight: It is too much of a pain in the ass to do myself, and if I screw up, I am in trouble. I hate it that I cannot work on my newer vehicle. Let those who want modern have them. That saves the classics for those who can, and do, appreciate them.