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gail
06-19-2008, 04:15 PM
Most women do not know that they are pregnant for 6 to 8 weeks.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html

This is when most abortions are performed.

http://prolifetraining.com/Audio-Video.htm

These children are being slaughtered. Look at their faces, and their tiny feet, and the perfectly formed legs, and hands. If you still think that these precious babies are a clump of cells, then you've been sold a bill of goods and need to take a good hard look at what goes on behind closed doors. One woman told me that her little girl was still alive when she had her abortion, but her baby only lived for a few minutes, she watched as her daughter struggled for life, listened to her weak cries as she whimpered and squirmed, but the effort was too much for her. The doctor sluffed it off as "reflexes, but my friend knew better and is still haunted by the sounds and image of her CHOICE. For some reason the media never publishes the stories of the women who are haunted by their abortions. These women now live with a ghost who follow them everywhere.

http://www.prolifetraining.com/WMV/Abortion-Pictures-high.htm

Eric
06-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Gail,

Referencing anti-abortion sites is suspect on its face; it's akin to going to the KKK for "evidence" about the Jewish World Conspiracy.

The idea that "most women" don't don't know they are pregnant for 6-8 weeks is ripe and stinky bullshit.

So is the rest of the stuff you posted.

Try to reference an objective source next time, ok?

gail
06-19-2008, 05:09 PM
Gail,

Referencing anti-abortion sites is suspect on its face; it's akin to going to the KKK for "evidence" about the Jewish World Conspiracy.

The idea that "most women" don't don't know they are pregnant for 6-8 weeks is ripe and stinky bullshit.

So is the rest of the stuff you posted.

Try to reference an objective source next time, ok?


And you think that Pro-abortionists would be objective?

PS while the KKK have little tolerant for Jews or Catholics - their primary target are blacks.

The pro-life people gather the facts, and publish them. Facts, Eric, facts. For some reasons you don't want to see facts when they go against what you want to believe.

Want the video and at the end where the doctor is turning the baby - he does this to make sure no body parts have been left in the mother and cause infection. Women often have their uterus puncture during some of the procedures, other times there is scarring rendering a woman incapable of carry a child. Some states require doctors to tell women these things, but for the most part she doesn't know or understand the risks.

At one of the clinics in NYC a devise was put on the woman to hear the baby's heartbeat so the doctor would know when his little patient was dead, they had to stop that because women were changing their minds. Abortion is big business. 5,000,000,000 tiny babies are slaughtered each year, by a person sworn to "do no harm." You think that i want that butcher to be my doctor. Uh-uh ! :'(

Eric
06-19-2008, 05:39 PM
"And you think that Pro-abortionists would be objective?"

No - did I say that?

What I meant was objective data; for example, studies done by the AMA.

"The pro-life people gather the facts, and publish them. Facts, Eric, facts."

Except they're not. They're cherry picked and stilted and designed to support the pro-life point of view.

"Want the video and at the end where the doctor is turning the baby - he does this to make sure no body parts have been left in the mother and cause infection."

Sigh. It is very challenging to discuss anything with a person who never learned the basic rules of logic. In this case, that the exception does not prove the rule.

"5,000,000,000 tiny babies are slaughtered each year"

Recently fertilized eggs are not "babies" anymore than any other potential thing is the actuality....

gail
06-19-2008, 05:57 PM
Try reading the testimonies of women who have had abortions.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/testamonials/testamonials.asp

Eric
06-19-2008, 06:16 PM
Try reading the testimonies of women who have had abortions.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/testamonials/testamonials.asp


So?

There are plenty of "testimonies" that say quite the opposite. Your point is.....?

Look, some people want children. Others, don't.

Unplanned pregnancies (especially those resulting from rape or incest) or pregnancies where the fetus is massively deformed, etc. are not "joyous occasions." Ending such pregnancies in their early stages often makes a lot more sense than letting the embryo develop into an unwanted child that will likely never receive the love, attention and proper upbringing a wanted child would - and which will thus very likely live a life of misery, poverty and crime (or all three).

As with the fixation on gays, I just don't get the over-the-top sentimentalizing of just fertilized eggs as "babies" - and the blithe way so many "no abortions, ever" people just leave the consequences of their insistence that each and every potential child be allowed (no, required) to grow into an actual one to the four winds... once these "children" are born, hey, someone else's problem. (Most ardent pro-life people tend to be politically conservative and oppose government programs to "help the children." I, too, oppose such programs - but I also support preventing such problems from developing in the first place!)



There are already way too many people on this Earth; and way too many low IQ, DNA deficient, unwanteds who end up becoming society's dregs (with exceptions, of course). I am thankful lawful abortion has at least somewhat tamped down these numbers.... .

Disco Man
06-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Most women do not know that they are pregnant for 6 to 8 weeks.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/fetaldevelopment.html

This is when most abortions are performed.

http://prolifetraining.com/Audio-Video.htm

These children are being slaughtered. Look at their faces, and their tiny feet, and the perfectly formed legs, and hands. If you still think that these precious babies are a clump of cells, then you've been sold a bill of goods and need to take a good hard look at what goes on behind closed doors. One woman told me that her little girl was still alive when she had her abortion, but her baby only lived for a few minutes, she watched as her daughter struggled for life, listened to her weak cries as she whimpered and squirmed, but the effort was too much for her. The doctor sluffed it off as "reflexes, but my friend knew better and is still haunted by the sounds and image of her CHOICE. For some reason the media never publishes the stories of the women who are haunted by their abortions. These women now live with a ghost who follow them everywhere.

http://www.prolifetraining.com/WMV/Abortion-Pictures-high.htm



Gail very well said!

Abortion is the greatest tragedy of our generation, so many lives have been lost that could have been an asset to our society and world.

Great point about the guilt women who have had abortions feel after the abortion. I have heard this from many women who have had abortions. These women have told me the only way they got peace was to come back to Christ and seek reconciliation for the past abortion. After that the healing process began.

There was a bumper sticker years ago that said it best - "abortion: one wounded, one dead"

Disco Man
06-19-2008, 06:29 PM
Unplanned pregnancies (especially those resulting from rape or incest) or pregnancies where the fetus is massively deformed, etc. are not "joyous occasions." Ending such pregnancies in their early stages often makes a lot more sense than letting the embryo develop into an unwanted child that will likely never receive the love, attention and proper upbringing a wanted child would - and which will thus very likely live a life of misery, poverty and crime (or all three).

As with the fixation on gays, I just don't get the over-the-top sentimentalizing of just fertilized eggs as "babies" - and the blithe way so many "no abortions, ever" people just leave the consequences of their insistence that each and every potential child be allowed (no, required) to grow into an actual one to the four winds... once these "children" are born, hey, someone else's problem.

There are already way too many people on this Earth; and way too many low IQ, DNA deficient, unwanteds who end up becoming societies dregs (with exceptions, of course). I am thankful lawful abortion has at least somewhat tamped down these numbers.... .


Eric,

Years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a young lady who had chosen to keep her baby after she was raped. She said it it was not her baby's fault he was concieved by a rape. The baby has now grown up to a healthy teenager. He would not be around if his mother felt as you do.

Life is a precious gift from God, and even in the cases of rape, incest, etc. it's still a human life and deserves a chance to live.

Eric
06-19-2008, 06:37 PM
Unplanned pregnancies (especially those resulting from rape or incest) or pregnancies where the fetus is massively deformed, etc. are not "joyous occasions." Ending such pregnancies in their early stages often makes a lot more sense than letting the embryo develop into an unwanted child that will likely never receive the love, attention and proper upbringing a wanted child would - and which will thus very likely live a life of misery, poverty and crime (or all three).

As with the fixation on gays, I just don't get the over-the-top sentimentalizing of just fertilized eggs as "babies" - and the blithe way so many "no abortions, ever" people just leave the consequences of their insistence that each and every potential child be allowed (no, required) to grow into an actual one to the four winds... once these "children" are born, hey, someone else's problem.

There are already way too many people on this Earth; and way too many low IQ, DNA deficient, unwanteds who end up becoming societies dregs (with exceptions, of course). I am thankful lawful abortion has at least somewhat tamped down these numbers.... .


Eric,

Years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a young lady who had chosen to keep her baby after she was raped. She said it it was not her baby's fault he was concieved by a rape. The baby has now grown up to a healthy teenager. He would not be around if his mother felt as you do.

Life is a precious gift from God, and even in the cases of rape, incest, etc. it's still a human life and deserves a chance to live.




If that was her choice, it's ok with me. However, I would never presume to dictate to a rape victim that she should have to carry such a pregnancy to term. Or abort it. Not my decision to make.

I mentioned to Gail that I oppose abortion when it goes beyond a certain point in the pregnancy (with exceptions in the case of massive deformity/health problems or major risk to the mother) because the decision to carry through the pregnancy (or not) should be made early in the pregnancy. However I have no moral/ethical problem with a woman choosing to end a pregnancy shortly after conception; at this point, it is just a potential, not an actual, child. There is no brain, no capacity to feel pain, no consciousness.

I understand your opposition to abortion on religious grounds, but to a non-believer that argument isn't persuasive. If my sister were raped, I'd want the choice to be hers to make - not forced on her by others.

ColleenC2
06-19-2008, 08:59 PM
I understand your opposition to abortion on religious grounds, but to a non-believer that argument isn't persuasive. If my sister were raped, I'd want the choice to be hers to make - not forced on her by others.

I too put my vote in with those that do not condone abortions. On many levels.

But the problem that society has and doesnt' seem to care about is that the majority of girls not grown women who have abortions don't feel that they have ANY choice. And that is just as much a tragedy as aborting the babies. Planned Parenthood DOES NOT help girls make choices, to argue this point is riduculous and just shows a lack of information.

We call it pro-choice, but if there are no counselors helping the girls out, setting up stragey planning for all three alternatives (keeping the baby, adoption or abortion) and informing them of the develop of whatever stage their baby is at, is not a choice,

Anyone can make an appropriate choice for themselves given the support and the knowledge, if a girl doesn't have any support, psychological , financial and emotional from family and friends and the professionals how can she choose to keep her baby, if a girl doesn't even know where to begin looking for an adoption center and feel secure in the process and the new parents how can she consider adoption, and if she doesn't even know what she is aborting how can one say that she made her choice.

That is the problem, I believe giving girls the information and support 99.9% of the girls would choose adoption and keeping their baby over abortion.

Society doesn't seem to concerned about it though, this society has become a "throw away" world

Eric, it is true that most girls/women do not even know they are pregnant until they miss that first period which is usually 28 to 30 days from conception.

As far as pregnancies from rape, the statistics do not seem to bear out that this is very common, as girls seek treatment, either from their family doctors or at the emergency room. I too agree with Eric that it would be very traumatic for a woman to carry to term a baby of a rape.
If some girls or women choose too, God bless them, but if a girl or woman chooses not to God bless them as well

gail
06-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Our forefathers escaped from religious oppression when they came to this country. Our constitution was founded on religious principles. For 380 years our government has run on these principles. Now, a handful of Marxist and atheist have some kind of idea that they can be just as moral without God in their lives as believers, and it simply isn't possible. The nation has gone into a chaotic tailspin over the past 50 years.

You said yourself, Eric, <<I understand your opposition to abortion on religious grounds, but to a non-believer that argument isn't persuasive. >> that you don't even understand where I am coming from. My guide in life is the Holy Scriptures. I use the same translation that my forefathers used. The King James Version. I am fortunate that my grandmother taught me how to understand old English. The scriptures are poetic, encouraging, soothing and at times frightening. I see the way our beloved nation is going and I tremble with fear because I know that God will not always be so patient with us. I also know that his judgement will fall on the just and the unjust evenly. So you can see why it is so important to me to try to turn the direction around before there is no longer any hope.

6 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 57:16 - 17)

gail
06-19-2008, 09:26 PM
Colleen wrote <<If some girls or women choose too, God bless them, but if a girl or woman chooses not to God bless them as well>>

Amen to that. I do not criticize women who have had an abortion, I criticize a society that pushes it off on women. My sympathy goes out to any woman who has had an abortion.

BTW all people who support abortion have already been born.

gail
06-19-2008, 09:37 PM
FYI

The Guttmacher Institute (GI) used to be Planned Parenthood's think-tank. No one would accuse it of twisting data in a pro-life direction.

McCormack cited a 1994-1995 GI survey of abortion patients which concluded that "in states where Medicaid pays for abortions, women covered by Medicaid have an abortion rate 3.9 times that of women who are not covered, while in states that do not permit Medicaid funding for abortions, Medicaid recipients are only 1.6 times as likely as nonrecipients to have abortions."

McCormack also cited a more current study by University of Alabama Professor Michael New, which found that states restricting the use of Medicaid funds to pay for abortion saw a drop of 29.66 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age.

Eric
06-20-2008, 05:11 AM
"Our forefathers escaped from religious oppression when they came to this country."

And brought their own form of oppression with them! You forget that the early settlers were just as intolerant of people who did not share their particular species of faith as their former European oppressors were toward theirs.

"Our constitution was founded on religious principles."

Oh yeah? Then why is there no mention of Jesus, the Bible, etc in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Why, indeed, are their specific prohibitions against, for example, religious tests as a requirement for holding office?

"For 380 years our government has run on these principles."

The US government was founded in 1787, not 1628. You really need to get your basic history straight.

"Now, a handful of Marxist and atheist have some kind of idea that they can be just as moral without God in their lives as believers, and it simply isn't possible."

Oh, please. This is such a silly and weak argument it hardly bears attacking. But just for the hey of it: There are thousands of murderous thugs in our prisons - rapists, murderers and child molesters - who beeeeeeeelieve and have "found the Lord." You are going to tell me these people are as (or more!) moral than I am?

"The nation has gone into a chaotic tailspin over the past 50 years."

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. (It does not necessarily follow that the decline of religious belief - if that has indeed happened which is very debatable - correlates with the increase in societal problems we are facing).

Eric
06-20-2008, 05:21 AM
"Eric, it is true that most girls/women do not even know they are pregnant until they miss that first period which is usually 28 to 30 days from conception."

Here's where I have a big bone to pick. A woman who has just had sex certainly knows - or should know - that she may have gotten pregnant, especially if she is not on the pill and the sex was unprotected. Is it unreasonable to expect that she test her pee very shortly thereafter to know for sure, either way? Store bought pee tests can detect hormonal changes indicative of pregnancy much sooner than 28-30 days. This is the woman's responsibility in my opinion. If she is pregnant - and does not want to be - the pregnancy can then be ended in its very early stages, obviating any reasonable moral objection that a "child" is being killed.

What makes this debate so contentious is that so many women are, frankly, irresponsible. They have sex, then fail to take immediate steps to determine whether they have conceived (and if they do not wish to be pregnant/have a baby, to take appropriate steps, immediately). This business of waiting months and months - and then seeking an abortion - is noxious. I, too, oppose most late term abortions for this very reason (with exceptions made for cases of severe deformity, health of the mother, etc.).

ColleenC2
06-20-2008, 12:16 PM
Here's where I have a big bone to pick. A woman who has just had sex certainly knows - or should know - that she may have gotten pregnant, especially if she is not on the pill and the sex was unprotected. Is it unreasonable to expect that she test her pee very shortly thereafter to know for sure, either way? Store bought pee tests can detect hormonal changes indicative of pregnancy much sooner than 28-30 days. This is the woman's responsibility in my opinion.

You are right, that if a girl or woman has sex she could get an ept test and check herself 7 to 9 days after she had intercourse, most girls are too immataure to think that far ahead. And I am talking girls here, not women.

gail
06-20-2008, 01:26 PM
Eric qwrote: <<Oh yeah? Then why is there no mention of Jesus, the Bible, etc in either the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Why, indeed, are their specific prohibitions against, for example, religious tests as a requirement for holding office?>>

Have you not noticed that all government officials swear on a Bible when sworn into office? That all court houses posted the Ten Commandments? You lived in Washington DC, surely you noticed all of the referrences to scriptures and prophets of old. And, until recently everyone had to swear on a Bible in court. I for one see no reason to tell the truth otherwise, and I'm sure that many feel the same way as I. Oh sure, you are still legally responsible, but without the Bible one hasn't swore to God in vain. The Higher Authority. Did you not know that from the time the Constitution was drafted that a prayer is given before the opening of each session?

Yes, I know that the constitution was drafted in 1776, but we did not become a nation until 1790. We fought a war to get this country, remember? The war wasn't easy, and the world didn't think much of us then either. I do consider that this country was ours from the founding of it when the Mayflower landed at Plymount, MA in 1620, not 1628. There is a lot of history that I don't know, and some that I have either forgotten or get mixed up, but there is a lot of history that I do know. Correct me if you will, ridicule me and shame on you. ::)

gail
06-20-2008, 01:41 PM
"Eric, it is true that most girls/women do not even know they are pregnant until they miss that first period which is usually 28 to 30 days from conception."

Here's where I have a big bone to pick. A woman who has just had sex certainly knows - or should know - that she may have gotten pregnant, especially if she is not on the pill and the sex was unprotected. Is it unreasonable to expect that she test her pee very shortly thereafter to know for sure, either way? Store bought pee tests can detect hormonal changes indicative of pregnancy much sooner than 28-30 days. This is the woman's responsibility in my opinion. If she is pregnant - and does not want to be - the pregnancy can then be ended in its very early stages, obviating any reasonable moral objection that a "child" is being killed.

I'm out of the loop on pregnancy testing. When I was pregnant with my first child the only testing was by killing the rabbit, and a woman had to have missed 3 periods before a doctor would even test her. With my last child, which I unfortunately miscarried 16 years ago, I was able to purchase pregnancy testing kit and use it about the second month or a little sooner. Science marches on so I would imagine you are right as to being able to test sooner, but i don't know.



What makes this debate so contentious is that so many women are, frankly, irresponsible. They have sex, then fail to take immediate steps to determine whether they have conceived (and if they do not wish to be pregnant/have a baby, to take appropriate steps, immediately). This business of waiting months and months - and then seeking an abortion - is noxious. I, too, oppose most late term abortions for this very reason (with exceptions made for cases of severe deformity, health of the mother, etc.).


We agree on most of what you wrote here. Women for the most part are silly, fickle, irresponsible and frankly, can't make up their minds. The sexual drive is strong, maternal instincts are strong, societies morals are weak. A woman will have sex thinking she is being loved, A man will love when he can't get sex, in order to get sex. ;D Since women have been giving "it" away so freely over the past 60 years in some kind of deludged thinking that they are being liberated, they no longer have the physical and legal protection of a husband and father. There are men who truly desire to have a family and they make good husbands and fathers, but in our society today neither the man or woman are taught these virtues. One only need to look around to verify what I am saying -- and one doesn't need to be religious to notice these things.

Where am I, and why am I in this basket?

Eric
06-20-2008, 03:15 PM
"Have you not noticed that all government officials swear on a Bible when sworn into office?"

That is just a custom; it has nothing whatsoever to do with what our official form of government is, its functions - or its legal requirements. And the fact is politicians also swear on the Koran. Does that mean we are a Muslim government? Your reasoning is constantly imprecise - and bereft of facts... .

"Yes, I know that the constitution was drafted in 1776...."

Here we go again.... the Constitution was drafted in 1787; the Declaration of Independence in 1776. Please try to get your facts straight before you rant....

ColleenC2
06-20-2008, 06:12 PM
The United States Constitution was written in 1787, adopted in 1788, and took effect in 1789, replacing the Articles of Confederation. It remains the basic law of the United States Federal (central) government.

O.K. is everybody clear?

Disco Man
06-20-2008, 06:44 PM
We agree on most of what you wrote here. Women for the most part are silly, fickle, irresponsible and frankly, can't make up their minds. The sexual drive is strong, maternal instincts are strong, societies morals are weak. A woman will have sex thinking she is being loved, A man will love when he can't get sex, in order to get sex. ;D Since women have been giving "it" away so freely over the past 60 years in some kind of deludged thinking that they are being liberated, they no longer have the physical and legal protection of a husband and father. There are men who truly desire to have a family and they make good husbands and fathers, but in our society today neither the man or woman are taught these virtues. One only need to look around to verify what I am saying -- and one doesn't need to be religious to notice these things.

Where am I, and why am I in this basket?


Very well said!

Eric
06-20-2008, 06:55 PM
"We agree on most of what you wrote here. Women for the most part are silly, fickle, irresponsible and frankly, can't make up their minds. The sexual drive is strong, maternal instincts are strong, societies morals are weak. A woman will have sex thinking she is being loved, A man will love when he can't get sex, in order to get sex. ;D Since women have been giving "it" away so freely over the past 60 years in some kind of deludged thinking that they are being liberated, they no longer have the physical and legal protection of a husband and father. There are men who truly desire to have a family and they make good husbands and fathers, but in our society today neither the man or woman are taught these virtues. One only need to look around to verify what I am saying -- and one doesn't need to be religious to notice these things."

Surprise, surprise... we do agree!

I'd only add that men can be just as dumb and irresponsible. It takes two to get pregnant - and in my opinion, the guy is just as responsible as the girl.

Drives me nuts when I hear/read about all these no-goodnik guys who knock up their girlfriends but are either in no position to assume the responsibilities of being a father... or just refuse to assume them.

ColleenC2
06-20-2008, 07:48 PM
I'd only add that men can be just as dumb and irresponsible. It takes two to get pregnant - and in my opinion, the guy is just as responsible as the girl.

Drives me nuts when I hear/read about all these no-goodnik guys who knock up their girlfriends but are either in no position to assume the responsibilities of being a father... or just refuse to assume them.

hear, hear!!! What burns me up is all these guys who get several girls pregnant (sometimes up to as many as 10 girls) and then doesn't give a damn about any of them!

ColleenC2
06-20-2008, 09:52 PM
Thought you all would find this article interesting

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=q_and_a

misterdecibel
06-20-2008, 10:11 PM
We agree on most of what you wrote here. Women for the most part are silly, fickle, irresponsible and frankly, can't make up their minds. The sexual drive is strong, maternal instincts are strong, societies morals are weak. A woman will have sex thinking she is being loved, A man will love when he can't get sex, in order to get sex. ;D Since women have been giving "it" away so freely over the past 60 years in some kind of deludged thinking that they are being liberated, they no longer have the physical and legal protection of a husband and father. There are men who truly desire to have a family and they make good husbands and fathers, but in our society today neither the man or woman are taught these virtues. One only need to look around to verify what I am saying -- and one doesn't need to be religious to notice these things.

Where am I, and why am I in this basket?


You think women "giving it away" is some sort of recent innovation? Victorian prudishness has only been a societal norm since the late 1800s. Prior to that, people were pretty bawdy, especially the lower classes. And that was almost everyone, before the Industrial Revolution created a solid middle class.

ColleenC2
06-20-2008, 11:07 PM
You think women "giving it away" is some sort of recent innovation? Victorian prudishness has only been a societal norm since the late 1800s.

Are you talking about here in America, because this pattern of promiscuity and victorianism is cyclical. About every 100 years the pendulum seem to swing.