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Eric
07-25-2010, 05:43 PM
Doesn't it seem likely that the reason all of us can't see God is because there is no God?

If God exists… why isn't his existence obvious?

And is "free will" a good answer to this question?

If God reveals himself to religious believers, in visions or revelations or other spiritual experiences… why doesn't he do it with everyone? Why are those revelations so contradictory - not to mention so suspiciously consistent with whatever the people having them already believe or want to believe? And why doesn't everyone have them? If God is real - if religious believers are perceiving a real entity with a real effect on the world - why isn't it just obvious?

Why is God playing hide and seek?

Some theists will say, it's because of free will.

"God can't reveal himself to us clearly," this argument goes, "because he wants us to have free will. We have to be free to believe in him or not. If he revealed his presence to us, we'd be forced to believe in him - and our free will is a precious gift. It's what makes us God's unique creation."

It's a really, really bad argument.

I'm going to dismantle it today.

Imagine you're on a jury. You're asked to decide whether something is or is not real, whether it did or did not happen; whether the accused stole the diamonds, or set fire to their warehouse for the insurance, or shot a man in Reno just to watch him die. The prosecution doesn't offer much evidence at the trial - it's all circumstantial at best, third-hand hearsay at worst, with excessive appeals to emotion and fear, and arguments based on faulty logic. So you decide to acquit.

And then, after you've reached your verdict, you're told there's a videotape, clearly showing the accused committing the crime.

You're baffled. You're outraged. You confront the prosecutor in the hallway, and ask, "Why didn't you show us this evidence at the trial? Why show it to us now - when it's too late to do anything about it?"

And the prosecutor replies, "Because you had to be free to decide for yourself. If we gave you that videotape, it would have made your choice too obvious. Free will is a precious gift, a crucial component of the justice system - and in order for the jury to have free will, we can't make the right verdict too obvious. That would have forced your hand."

Would you nod your head sagely in agreement? Would you think that was a sound and reasonable explanation?

Or would you think he was out of his gourd?

And if you think this was a ridiculous and outrageous explanation from the prosecutor - then why on earth would you think it's a good argument when it comes to God?

Adam
07-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Eric we will all see God on judgment day very clearly. Untill then we should stay focus and remember my good man Eternity is a very long time. Yes,let's all spend it with God our Father.

Eric
07-25-2010, 08:08 PM
Eric we will all see God on judgment day very clearly. Untill then we should stay focus and remember my good man Eternity is a very long time. Yes,let's all spend it with God our Father.

I know you believe that, but how do you know it?

Is your belief in the Christian God more (or less) valid than the Muslim's belief in his God? The Hindu's?

Which God is the real god?

How do you know it? How can it be proved?

Saying, " I believe" or "the Bible (or Koran) says so" is fine, but it's not knowledge or proof anymore than my saying I believe in Martians (because there are books that say so).

Our everyday experience and what we know about biology (that is, things that can be demonstrated and proved; that aren't just opinions) pretty strongly suggest that our awareness/sense of the external world is based on our physical bodies; once they die, so does our awareness.

Just sayin'....

dom
07-25-2010, 11:10 PM
Eric we will all see God on judgment day very clearly. Untill then we should stay focus and remember my good man Eternity is a very long time. Yes,let's all spend it with God our Father.

I am not a super religious person, but I do know that I don't want to spend eternity contemplating the stupid makes and decisions I made while on earth as a human.

I agree with Adam. Ultimate Reality will be supremely clear and unmistakable when time comes. Doesn't matter what religion.

Which God is the real god you ask.

The real God is the one that put all these atom in space into motion.

He is also the one that assigned your spirit to the particular atoms that make your body.

Adam
07-26-2010, 07:06 AM
I know times are tough and getting worst but in my opinion God is testing our faith. I think there are false gods in this world but only one real God and he is every bodies just different versions of the same Almighty. No matter who you believe in or not be the best you can be and let God sort it all out at the end. The proof is there and we will all find it sooner or later. Prayer is the answer.

dBrong
07-26-2010, 10:03 AM
"God can't reveal himself to us clearly," this argument goes, "because he wants us to have free will. We have to be free to believe in him or not. If he revealed his presence to us, we'd be forced to believe in him - and our free will is a precious gift. It's what makes us God's unique creation."

First of all God will be revealed when he goes through one of those TSA backscatter machines :)

But seriously here is the flaw in the above arguement:


If he revealed his presence to us, we'd be forced to believe in him - and our free will is a precious gift.

#1. This is the very old belief that God is a person. That God can cause earthquakes, storms, etc.

#2. He did reveal himself 1000's of years ago (like Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed). So that 'breaks' the free will arguement.

#3. Funny all this religious stuff happend 1000's of years ago but not today. It's similar to UFO's that only happen an night, somewhere in the sticks.

#4 There are already 1,000's of people in mental hospitals that believe they are really close to God, or are God. Maybe God is one of them?

#5. Hell, I don't even believe in (the ligitimacy of) the US government, and there are millions working for that organization.

Thank God for free will :)

dom
07-26-2010, 11:34 PM
You know what really blows my mind.

Ever watch the History, or Discovery channel when they start talking about the ancient astronaut theory/hypothesis?

That is a trip!

They have like little figures and wall paintings showing human like creatures with space suits on and they few around on aircraft/space ships.

Eric
07-27-2010, 06:05 AM
You know what really blows my mind.

Ever watch the History, or Discovery channel when they start talking about the ancient astronaut theory/hypothesis?

That is a trip!

They have like little figures and wall paintings showing human like creatures with space suits on and they few around on aircraft/space ships.

I'm hip.

You know what's even more of a trip?

Consider: What we call human civilization is roughly 10,000 years or so old. The Earth is more than 4 billion years old. It has been able to sustain advanced life for hundreds of millions of years.

Who's to say we're the first advanced civilization to rise up here?

There is some evidence we're not.