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Thread: Vain Imaginations

  1. #1
    gail
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    Vain Imaginations

    There are no underage pregnant girls, there are no forced marriages, the beliefs of the FLDS mothers is NOT dangerous to their children.
    All of what you have been hearing has been lies and half-truths, and you guys swallowed it - hook, line and sinker.

    1 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    (New Testament | Romans 1:21 - 22)

  2. #2
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Third Court of Appeals Mandamus Ruling

    stated in part that:

    "The state never provided evidence that teenage girls were being sexaully abused"

    "The state never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children"

    "The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger"

  3. #3
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle (as is usual)

    "No abuse" is too strong, and "They were all abused" is also too strong a phrase to be using.

    A better question might be: Are there more cases of abuse amongst the FLDS community than in the surrounding community?
    Because we wouldn't want the pot calling the kettle black.

    This is an important question to ask because it recognizes that abuse (as horrible as it is) does happen, and until we can all be perfect, will continue to happen. The best we can hope for as a society is that it will be reduced over time, and may become essentially zero one day.

    Chip H.

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  4. #4
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    There are no underage pregnant girls, there are no forced marriages, the beliefs of the FLDS mothers is NOT dangerous to their children.
    All of what you have been hearing has been lies and half-truths, and you guys swallowed it - hook, line and sinker.

    1 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    (New Testament | Romans 1:21 - 22)
    And OJ is innocent.

    The raid may have been botched - but it was deserved - and the idea that these religious fuckwits are "innocent" of child abuse (and worse) is twaddle.

    Give me a dozen girls that I can completely isolate and control - that I can indoctrinate from birth - whose "education" and information sources I can control completely, whose very existence is unrecorded in any public record (so if an unfortunate death or two occur, none is the wiser), whom I can impregnate as soon as that is biologically possible - to bind them to me completely, and allow me to selectively tell them how hard and dangerous the outside world is (for them and their babies) and it will be a rare girl indeed who escapes.

    If they are fearful enough of the consequences, very few will even think of such a thing with anything but terror and the vast majority will tell anyone who asks how grateful they are for the opportunity to stay exactly where they are.

  5. #5
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    The raid may have been botched

    The raid wasn't botched, it went the way the authorities planned it.

    The process was botched and without following the laws

    Maybe my mother is arguing against your points, but I have not.

    I understand that the criminal investigation is ongoing, I understand that the men may be asked to leave the compound while the investigation is ongoing. There were many things that CPS could have done as stated above to achieve their desired results, but to round up and seize almost 500 children, the majority under the age of 5, is legally wrong as stated in the United States Constitution and the Laws of Texas.

    Maybe if they had competent people working in Child Protective Services the results would have been different, seems to me if you want to be angry at someone or something that should be directed towards the idiots at Child Protective Services.


  6. #6
    gail
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    There are no underage pregnant girls, there are no forced marriages, the beliefs of the FLDS mothers is NOT dangerous to their children.
    All of what you have been hearing has been lies and half-truths, and you guys swallowed it - hook, line and sinker.

    1 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    (New Testament | Romans 1:21 - 22)
    And OJ is innocent.

    The raid may have been botched - but it was deserved - and the idea that these religious fuckwits are "innocent" of child abuse (and worse) is twaddle.

    Give me a dozen girls that I can completely isolate and control - that I can indoctrinate from birth - whose "education" and information sources I can control completely, whose very existence is unrecorded in any public record (so if an unfortunate death or two occur, none is the wiser), whom I can impregnate as soon as that is biologically possible - to bind them to me completely, and allow me to selectively tell them how hard and dangerous the outside world is (for them and their babies) and it will be a rare girl indeed who escapes.

    If they are fearful enough of the consequences, very few will even think of such a thing with anything but terror and the vast majority will tell anyone who asks how grateful they are for the opportunity to stay exactly where they are.
    SPEED KILLS - All traffic tickets are deserved and there are NO speed traps - we can trust cops and our government - President Bush is the best president since George Washington -- We have won the Iraqi war -- MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

    Satisfied now? We both know that the above are all lies, at the same time we also understand how difficult it is to fight the above lies. In spite of the majority of people believing the above lies, you and I could see through the facade. We understood that driving too fast for conditions was dangerous, but driving faster than an arbitrarily posted speed limit was not. The same as with drunk driving, yet unreasonable for the state to lower the BAC until almost everyone could be booked on a DUI --- bogus, bogus, BOGUS!

    Well, so were the charges against the FLDS people. No one was forced, no brainwashing, so they are weird, so what? Most of us here are weird. You're weird, I'm weird - what else is new? Let me give you some facts, since you deal so well in facts --
    Fact: raping 13 years old girls is horrendous.
    Fact: The state had no proof that any FLDS 13 year old girls were raped.
    Fact: CPS lied and the news media continued telling CPS' lies.
    Fact: Men who rape children have charges brought against them and they go to jail.
    Fact: No charges were brought against any of the FLDS men residing at the YFZ Ranch

    Fact: The state of Texas violated the Constitutional Rights of 168 women and 463 children
    Fact: There is no redeeming value to the state's action. The people in charged should be fired, and charges brought against them and they should serve jail time and the victims should sue for slander.
    Fact: Many of you are wallowing in vain imaginations, get out of the mire, sounding like a bunch of Fundies yourself, while exclaiming how horrible a porn film is to get it banned.
    Fact: all people who continue to perpetrate these malicious lies should be ashamed of themselves. Be indignant against those (CPS, Judge Walther, Texas Rangers, and anyother) who actually hurt the children by depriving them of their mothers and leave the FLDS people alone.

  7. #7
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Gail,

    You continue not to see the elephant that is stomping his feet right before your very eyes. It doesn't take a great leap of logic - or a vengeful, mean-spirited mind - to reasonably believe these FLDS cretins are abusing the kids under their control. That they have managed to obfuscate and thwart investigation is not the same thing as being innocent and pure, as you seem to believe.

    This is a group that reveres and follows the teachings of a scumbag (Jeffs) who is known to not just advocate but to have practiced coercive "marriages" of very young girls to considerably older men; often old men (such as Jeff's reptile-like father, who at the age of 80-plus "wed" teenage girls) and which clearly (to any sane observer) practices mind control techiques to herd the sheep and keep them in thrall to the Dear Leader.

    You defend them because you sympathize with them; because, at core, you share their basic Mormon beliefs. To you, all this nonsense is "wholesome" and wonderful.

    I'm sure the North Korean "pioneer children" feel the same way... .


  8. #8
    gail
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Gail,

    You continue not to see the elephant that is stomping his feet right before your very eyes. It doesn't take a great leap of logic - or a vengeful, mean-spirited mind - to reasonably believe these FLDS cretins are abusing the kids under their control. That they have managed to obfuscate and thwart investigation is not the same thing as being innocent and pure, as you seem to believe.

    This is a group that reveres and follows the teachings of a scumbag (Jeffs) who is known to not just advocate but to have practiced coercive "marriages" of very young girls to considerably older men; often old men (such as Jeff's reptile-like father, who at the age of 80-plus "wed" teenage girls) and which clearly (to any sane observer) practices mind control techiques to herd the sheep and keep them in thrall to the Dear Leader.

    You defend them because you sympathize with them; because, at core, you share their basic Mormon beliefs. To you, all this nonsense is "wholesome" and wonderful.

    I'm sure the North Korean "pioneer children" feel the same way... .

    As far as the elephants go - you seem to be the one that can't see past them. You send me videos of young girls, appearing to be 9 or 10 years old, dressed in white and expect me to believe that they are the brides of 80 and 90 year old men. I say GARBAGE! These are girls wearing their First Holy Communion dresses, which are classically like wedding dresses. And what is with the black girl? I haven't seen any Black members in this group. But she sure looked sweet in her white communion dress. Catholic, you know. Maybe some other religions that I'm not familiar with. Also, in many weddings these days the little flower girl is dressed as a miniature bride. My friend recently married a divorced woman with a 5 year old daughter and she was dressed indentical to her mother, and I see this custom in wedding magazines as well. OBTW - they don't wear fancy dresses, in case you haven't noticed.

    I prefer my leap of logic to think a person free of guilt until proven otherwise, than to believe the worse of people. The worse thing that these people did was to allow them into their ranch. I'm sure they, like many, felt that if they hadn't done anything wrong then why not let the authorities look into their homes. <<That they have managed to obfuscate and thwart investigation is not the same thing as being innocent and pure, as you seem to believe.
    >> Do you know first-hand any FLDS person? For that matter other than me, who you greatly admire, do you even know another Mormon? Have you ever taken the instructions from the LDS missionaries for no other reason than to learn about our docutrine? I think not. Your total education about the LDS people is from our enemies.

    6 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
    17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
    18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
    19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
    20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
    21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    (New Testament | Matthew 10:16 - 23)


    I sympathize with them because I am a mother and I can feel their pain. I sympathize with them because I believe from the depth of my being that they are being wrong and suffering religious persecution. Pure and simple! However, I have no idea as to how close the teachings are of the two churches. The FLDS broke away from my church 78 years ago. They have isolated themselves for the past 78 years. We have different leaders, we have gone different directions. I am aware that many of the lies told about the FLDS are also told about my church, and I know that they aren't true concerning the latter. I can only suppose the same is true for them.

    I have no idea what you are talking about when you say <<I'm sure the North Korean "pioneer children" feel the same way... .>> ???

  9. #9
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    There seems to be a disproportionate amount of outrage at this group and their alleged practices vs that of general society.

    Have you been so outraged at pre-pubescent girls dressing like "street-walkers", are you so outraged at the fact that 1 out of every 3 girls will be molested in the general population, are you outraged that the majority of teenage pregnancies occur between a teenager and a man at least 5 years her senior? Are you outraged that in today's society teenage pregnancy is now called a "fashion", it has been glamourized by the "movie stars" who are unwed pregnant mothers? Are you outraged at all of the female college students who are showing up everyday in the media missing and murdered? Do you display such outrage that 1 out of every 2 women in America will be a victim of domestic violence? Are you so outraged that in today's society young pre-pubecent girls are literally starving themselves to stay "attractive" to men. Are you outraged that babies and young children have no supervisory parents available to their needs but are housed in day care facilities to lie in cribs all day while parents make the almighty dollar so as to afford that BMW?

    Are you outraged that the public school system in "brain-washing" young children that having sex is o.k., are you outraged that handing out condomes to 11, 12, 13, 14 year old boys is not re-enforcing societies notion that "boys will be boys", are you not outraged that we are not teaching young boys to respect girls, respect their bodies, are you not outraged that as a society as a whole that we have done a piss poor job in raising the next generation of girls beating up on girls, having "hook-ups" with every Tom, Dick and Harry, friends with benefits? Are you not outraged that the youth of society have no respect for anyone not even themselves? Are you so outraged that the public school system has failed to educate 75% of all High School students in America today, that over 50% of all High School students drop out of school before they ever reach their senior year? Are you so outraged that 3 million teenagers under the age of 16 are alcoholics in America today?


    How dare anyone in secular society point the finger at some religous group, where the facts do not support the rumours and innundos.
    Seems to me there is a whole lot of finger pointing here and three fingers are pointing back at the individuals who claim to be so outraged at what the rumours are being spread around by CPS about this group.

    When all of society can be just as outraged at the treatment of children, girls and boys, teenagers and women, in the general population, then maybe, just maybe they have a right to be outraged at a specific group of people! (if the facts bear out the abuse in that particular group)

  10. #10
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    "Have you been so outraged at pre-pubescent girls dressing like "street-walkers", are you so outraged at the fact that 1 out of every 3 girls will be molested in the general population, are you outraged that the majority of teenage pregnancies occur between a teenager and a man at least 5 years her senior? Are you outraged that in today's society teenage pregnancy is now called a "fashion", it has been glamourized by the "movie stars" who are unwed pregnant mothers? Are you outraged at all of the female college students who are showing up everyday in the media missing and murdered? Do you display such outrage that 1 out of every 2 women in America will be a victim of domestic violence? Are you so outraged that in today's society young pre-pubecent girls are literally starving themselves to stay "attractive" to men. Are you outraged that babies and young children have no supervisory parents available to their needs but are housed in day care facilities to lie in cribs all day while parents make the almighty dollar so as to afford that BMW?"

    Of course I am appalled by these things; but what has that to do with the FUBAR FLDS cult? Does pointing to one pile of shit make the pile of shit next to it not smell quite so bad?

    And: There is a difference in that this is organized, systematic abuse very similar to a pedophile ring; hell it is a pedophile ring - one using the cloak of "religious freeeeeeeedom" to get away with what, under any other circumstances, would be dealt with far more harshly than it has been to date.

    Freaks like Warren Jeffs should have their heads kicked in. The Defectives who embrace his "philosophy" (and others like it) should be forcibly sterilized and any kids involved removed and adopted out.

    To paraphrase (I believe it was) Oliver Wendell Holmes: "Three generations of imbeciles is enough."

  11. #11
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    “O-Qua Tangin Wann … Qua Omsa Lagee Wann and things of this nature”

  12. #12
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    I've noticed, at least in various "online communities" that Mormons seem to come down in one of two camps re: the FLDS episode -- some find them an embarrassment and wish to see the heretics wiped out, and others express sympathy for the "paleo-Mormon" group.

    I suspect that the State of Texas may be under some political pressure exerted by people of the first mindset. I happen to agree with Gail that Law Enforcement seem to have overreacted to what now appears to be flimsy evidence.

    As much as I dislike their lifestyle and belief system, I think the FLDS have a constitutional right to exist and to behave according to their beliefs. Except in ways where their beliefs are at odds with federal, state and local law. Practicing polygamy is not legal, although I'm sure the FLDS are probably operating within some sort of legal loophole on that matter, in that each of these harems probably only has one official legal marriage on paper.

    I don't know about the FLDS group in Texas, but there are groups in Arizona (and maybe other states that border Utah?) that run whole communities that should probably be investigated.

  13. #13
    gail
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    I've noticed, at least in various "online communities" that Mormons seem to come down in one of two camps re: the FLDS episode -- some find them an embarrassment and wish to see the heretics wiped out, and others express sympathy for the "paleo-Mormon" group.

    I suspect that the State of Texas may be under some political pressure exerted by people of the first mindset. I happen to agree with Gail that Law Enforcement seem to have overreacted to what now appears to be flimsy evidence.

    As much as I dislike their lifestyle and belief system, I think the FLDS have a constitutional right to exist and to behave according to their beliefs. Except in ways where their beliefs are at odds with federal, state and local law. Practicing polygamy is not legal, although I'm sure the FLDS are probably operating within some sort of legal loophole on that matter, in that each of these harems probably only has one official legal marriage on paper.

    I don't know about the FLDS group in Texas, but there are groups in Arizona (and maybe other states that border Utah?) that run whole communities that should probably be investigated.
    It would have been better if the men had left while the state investigated and leaving the mothers and children in their homes. The last I heard the underage girls pregnant or had had a child has dwindled from 77 to 5 and they haven't bother telling us how close these 5 are to 18. Also they are now saying that the "old" men are in their 20s and 30s. This is a much more reasonable age span for getting someone pregnant. There has been all kinds of unsubstantiated claims coming from CPS - broken bones, but no x-rays, early pregnancies, but no exams, boys being molested with no proof - it is sort of a "make-it-up-as-they-go-along," and the public is eating it up - as if they are at the coliseum. This type of behavior from a govt. agency makes me very nervous.

    I have heard they the FLDS are 40,000 strong with communities in Utah, Arizona, Montana, Colorado, Texas, Wyoming and Canada. They broke away from the LDS in 1930 formed by two ex-communicated Mormons. The beliefs have varied through the years on both sides, but there is a common thread. Since I know little about the FLDS beliefs I have nothing to compare. I do understand that the church leaders are allowing and even encouraging individual members and local bishops to help as they see fit. No pressure. I personally have donated money for their legal cause. I feel strongly that they have been wronged.

  14. #14
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    And: There is a difference in that this is organized, systematic abuse very similar to a pedophile ring; hell it is a pedophile ring - one using the cloak of "religious freeeeeeeedom" to get away with what, under any other circumstances, would be dealt with far more harshly than it has been to date.

    Based on the research and statistics the "pedophile ring" is in the general population: 1 out of every 3 girls will be molested and that is only the number of molestations on record, that research and stats are vague when it comes to the boys as they are less likely to report such acts.

    The only difference is that the general public does not claim to be under the "cloak of religous freeeeeeeedom"

    although I'm sure the FLDS are probably operating within some sort of legal loophole on that matter, in that each of these harems probably only has one official legal marriage on paper.


    Again there is a parallel in that, in the general population we call this behavior something like "baby mamas" only the men do not take responsibilty for the offspring that the teenage girls produce. Don't act as if we all don't know that it is going on ,1 man having as many baby mamas' as he possibly can with no regard for the welfare and education of those offsprings.

    And since 3/4 of all teenage girls in America have either been pregnant or have babies by men at least 5 years their senior, we can't act like this is not going on and is not sanctioned by society, we do not see CPS workers going into the Junior High Schools and High Schools and seizing all of these teenagers and their babies.

    Or another instance, where I didn't hear any outrage over the Senator who just last week got into an accident because he was drunk with his girlfriend and 2 year old child, while his wife and kids were at home. Some may say well it wasn't his wife it was only his girlfriend, well if you have a child with another woman and you are cohabiting with both of them, why not just call it for what it is, he has two wives, just not married "legally" to the one.

    But,
    I guess this behavior is o.k. because it is not under the "cloak of religous freeeeeeedom" , hell no, it is under the cloak of "as long as it is done outside the religous realm, well then it is o.k.



  15. #15
    DonTom
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    "The state never provided evidence"

    Same with Michael Jackson. You think he was innocent too?

    -Don-

  16. #16
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    I've noticed, at least in various "online communities" that Mormons seem to come down in one of two camps re: the FLDS episode -- some find them an embarrassment and wish to see the heretics wiped out, and others express sympathy for the "paleo-Mormon" group.

    I suspect that the State of Texas may be under some political pressure exerted by people of the first mindset. I happen to agree with Gail that Law Enforcement seem to have overreacted to what now appears to be flimsy evidence.

    As much as I dislike their lifestyle and belief system, I think the FLDS have a constitutional right to exist and to behave according to their beliefs. Except in ways where their beliefs are at odds with federal, state and local law. Practicing polygamy is not legal, although I'm sure the FLDS are probably operating within some sort of legal loophole on that matter, in that each of these harems probably only has one official legal marriage on paper.

    I don't know about the FLDS group in Texas, but there are groups in Arizona (and maybe other states that border Utah?) that run whole communities that should probably be investigated.
    Just to be clear: I also support the idea that any adult has the right to live his/her life however they wish, provided no one else is harmed. But therein lies my objection to groups such as the FLDS. It is obvious to anyone with a brain not addled by religious nonsense that putting a child into such a situation - bizarre religious cult isolated on a "campus" and under the control of a sick/fucked-up "leader" such as Warren Jeffs and his followers etc. - is child abuse on the face of it. And that doesn't even touch on the sexual abuse side of it. No kid should be mind-fucked by a group like FLDS or parents so addled by religion that they beeeeelieve in abject nonsense and do all in their power to impart their abject nonsense (and "magical thinking" mindset) into the minds of highly impressionable children who lap up bullshit of this kind from the authority figures around them.

  17. #17
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    To equate problems in society generally with abuse by a specific group is sophistry.

    It's like saying: There's pollution in the ocean - so why worry about the sewage being pumped into a nearby lake by that company across the road?

    As an aside, I also think the Amish practice of ending their kids' formal education at the eighth grade level is execrable and that the state should step in and require the kids be educated through the 12th grade, just like everyone else.

    Religious idiocy perpetuates itself mainly through the tamping down of education - in tandem with suffocating control from birth through adolesence, during which time the kids are spoon fed religious BS. If children were taught to think and to evaluate any claim on its merits, absent pressure to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelieve, religious nonsense would mostly disappear within 50 years.

  18. #18
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Religious idiocy perpetuates itself mainly through the tamping down of education - in tandem with suffocating control from birth through adolesence, during which time the kids are spoon fed religious BS. If children were taught to think and to evaluate any claim on its merits, absent pressure to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelieve, religious nonsense would mostly disappear within 50 years.

    My intent in this discussion is not to get into all the religious debasing, but to say that Religious idiocy perpetuates itself mainly through the tamping down of education is nothing more than ignoring the reality that "religious peoples" are removing their children from the public education system for exactly the reason for what you claim.

    Studies have shown that "home-schooled" children are higher educated and surpass any "standard achievement" tests available today in measuring the level of education that these children have. All Ivy league colleges accept home-schoolers and actively market with the hope of recruiting these students to attend their universities.

    I hear the rhetoric but the studies and the research does not support it

  19. #19
    gail
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    To equate problems in society generally with abuse by a specific group is sophistry.

    It's like saying: There's pollution in the ocean - so why worry about the sewage being pumped into a nearby lake by that company across the road?

    As an aside, I also think the Amish practice of ending their kids' formal education at the eighth grade level is execrable and that the state should step in and require the kids be educated through the 12th grade, just like everyone else.

    Religious idiocy perpetuates itself mainly through the tamping down of education - in tandem with suffocating control from birth through adolesence, during which time the kids are spoon fed religious BS. If children were taught to think and to evaluate any claim on its merits, absent pressure to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelieve, religious nonsense would mostly disappear within 50 years.
    I think you are giving parents more credit than they deserve. You have heard many of the posters tell tales of their religious upbringing, including your own, who are now atheists or agnostics. I have this among my children as well Only two of my nine children, stepdaughter and foster son are LDS, the rest have all chosen their own way in life, including two who are agnostic. I was reared non-denominational forthe most part, since I grew up on military bases. As a side line, Hard-shell Southern Baptist was my mother's religious background, as her father was a Baptist minister. I rejected much of their premise, and went searching for myself. I tried on several different Christian religions before deciding that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) doctrine 27 years ago was the one that I could embrace.

    As a mother of many children (11 - 9 birth children, a stepdaughter and a foster son), I'm here to inform you that each of my children manifested a personality before they were born, and that personality persisted after their birth. Sometimes to my chagrin, other times to my great joy. Some of my children were loving and easy to be with, several have become true friends, but others kept me wondering what went wrong, although all have good work ethics and are good citizens of their communities. None have been into drugs or in jail, for this I thank God. But only through the grace of God did I get through it all.

    If the FLDS has discovered the secret of rearing well-behaved children and happy adults - they need to be teaching the rest of us how to live our lives, rather than society condemning them. It is an insult for CPS to suggest, nay, command - that these women take parenting classes. They should be giving mothers parenting classes.

    Stop believing the lies being circulated about this group.

  20. #20
    ColleenC2
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    Re: Vain Imaginations

    To equate problems in society generally with abuse by a specific group is sophistry.

    My argument was certainly not to equate the problems in society with a specific group, but to show that the way society in general is "raising" children is more skrewed up than this religous group.

    "The effectiveness of any program can be determined by the results"!

    To point out the maganitude of the effects of the "societal norm" that which is considered acceptable parenting is in no way sophistry, the facts as previously laid out demonstrate that whatever is considered "abnormal" with this group of people is like a drop of water in the vast ocean compared with the problems manifested in society in general,


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