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Thread: Comments on 2010 Taurus SHO

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Comments on 2010 Taurus SHO

    Ford Motor Company unveiled the 2010 Taurus SHO at the 2009 Chicago Auto Show featuring Ford's EcoBoost engine which delivers impressive power of a V-8 engine, but the fuel economy of a V-6.

    Brett Hinds, Advanced Engine Design Manager for Ford said this vehicle further strengthens its car line up and was quick to point out the difference between the base 2010 Taurus, revealed earlier this year at the Detroit auto show, and the 2010 Taurus SHO, which has Ford's most powerful EcoBoost twin turbocharged engine.

    Cut #1: "What EcoBoost engines do, is it's a small engine and in this case it's a 3.5 liter V-6 with twin-Turbo-Chargers and direct injection. And having that engine displacement we still use fuel like the V-6 engine that's currently in the base Taurus, 3.5 liter. But with the Turbochargers and the direct injection system what we're actually able to do is provide the performance of a V-8." :17 sec.

    Hinds then went on to explain how that translates to the vehicle and the person behind the wheel.

    Cut #2: "Performance is going to be really enhanced for the vehicle, the vehicle will have great nimble driving characteristics, it'll be a fun-to-drive vehicle, it'll have good passing maneuvers, it'll have great acceleration and give you really confidence in driving the vehicle." :12 sec.

    While performance will be enhanced, fuel economy for a performance sedan, will be too.

    Cut #3: "All the time though you're actually still going to get the same fuel economy as a V-6 and that's the idea behind EcoBoost, V-8 performance, V-6 fuel economy." :07 sec.

    Driver enthusiasts might be surprised to learn that the 2010 Taurus SHO does not have a manual transmission, it has something else.

    Cut #4: "What Ford's done, Ford's providing the "Select-Shift-Auto-Trans" and what that allows the driver to do is much like a manual transmission, the driver can select the gear he is in, using paddle-shifters on the steering wheel." :10 sec.

    Pete Reyes, (Ray-es) Chief Engineer for the 2010 Taurus SHO, says the names Taurus and Taurus SHO have been linked since 1989 when the Taurus SHO debuted.

    Cut #5: "We sort of were the first to market with a sports sedan a real performance number, and SHO stand for "Super High Output" and it was d-marked mostly by a monochromatic look and a V-6 high-performance engine. Since that time it got a cult following and many of the SHO people, people who have bought SHO's just say, they have a Taurus." :18 sec.

    Reyes says the profile of the typical customer attracted to the Taurus SHO is anybody who wants an expressive, high-tech vehicle.

    Cut #6: "Our customers are all over the map. They're men, women they're young and old, and this is what research has shown us, and then when you go and you put a performance engine in and you make the subtle changes that turn it into a SHO you get a subset of that, of people who really want power, and expressive driving dynamics and some of the look, the 20" tires, and so you're grabbing a subset of those people who say wow it looks great can I have more of it, and that's always what SHO has been." :24 sec.

    The 2010 Ford Taurus SHO will be in showrooms this summer, the same time the 2010 Taurus will be available. The Taurus SHO will be priced at $37,995.00

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    $37k for a front wheel drive sedan???? Hell no. Its about 15k overpriced.

    I don't care if the thing has 800 horsepower.

    Ford is missing the mark completely, although car companies have never sold to people like me. They sell to the sheeple.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    $37k for a front wheel drive sedan???? Hell no. Its about 15k overpriced.

    I don't care if the thing has 800 horsepower.

    Ford is missing the mark completely, although car companies have never sold to people like me. They sell to the sheeple.
    I agree. The original Taurus worked, in part, because FWD performance was "hot" in the '90s (and V-8/RWD and AWD performance cars not nearly as common or potent as they are today).

    This thing is price-competitive with a BMW 3-Series - and that is not gonna fly.

    You;d think Ford would have figured out by now that most people are not going to pay BMW money for a Ford. No offense. Just a reality check.

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    Ridin Dirty dom's Avatar
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    40k for a tore-azz. Laughable to say the least. Must be pretty strange to live in a world where you imagine people are going to pay top dollar for a bottom rate vehicle.

    Those people at Ford obviously have their heads up there asses

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    The problem is that during the genesis of front-wheel drive performance cars (in the 1980s) - touring performance (4-door sedan) cars such such as the Pontiac 6000 STE (that made 125-140 horsepower from a 2.8/3.1 liter V6), were the par. This type of power back then was good, and yet it was not enough to be dangerous (torque steer was not bad). Once front-wheel drive cars went over 200 horsepower (with lots of torque) it was a different story. Even today that's a big issue just about everyone you talk to that drives the front-wheel drive Nissan Altima coupe which has the optional beefy 3.5 liter V6 (270 horsepower), mentions the torque steer is terrible and borders on being almost suicidal.

    The simple truth is that front-wheel drive cars will never be ultimate performance cars. It's like trying to train an old man in a nursing home to bench press 500 lbs. It will never happen. This is why automakers who want to compete in the performance arena move to rear-wheel drive or an all-wheel drive systems.

    This is why you'll never see a front-wheel drive BMW.

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    Fellas, the 2010 SHO will not be front-wheel drive. It will use a Haldex all-wheel drive system. As far as it being overpriced, can you name for me a few other cars this size that offer AWD, over 350 h.p., a similar level of luxury features, and a price that is lower? The Dodge Charger R/T AWD seems a pretty fair comparison and it is $1800 cheaper. Are there any others?

    One of the car magazines (maybe Motor Trend?) calculated out the inflation and determined that the 2010 SHO is only a couple hundred dollars more expensive than the original SHO, when adjusted for inflation. The first-generation Taurus SHO seemed pretty popular despite being expensive for a Ford.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyW View Post
    Fellas, the 2010 SHO will not be front-wheel drive. It will use a Haldex all-wheel drive system. As far as it being overpriced, can you name for me a few other cars this size that offer AWD, over 350 h.p., a similar level of luxury features, and a price that is lower? The Dodge Charger R/T AWD seems a pretty fair comparison and it is $1800 cheaper. Are there any others?

    One of the car magazines (maybe Motor Trend?) calculated out the inflation and determined that the 2010 SHO is only a couple hundred dollars more expensive than the original SHO, when adjusted for inflation. The first-generation Taurus SHO seemed pretty popular despite being expensive for a Ford.
    Hi Randy,

    You're right about the AWD; but I'd argue the price is still hugely problematic. Yes, I understand that it has power/features, etc. competitive with cars in its price range. But if history is an indicator of the future, I doubt many people will pay BMW and Lexus money for a Ford. No offense intended. I like Fords and have nothing against the pending SHO. But that's neither here nor there. I also liked the recent Thunderbird. But it failed because, to a great extent, people who spend $40k on a car expect a prestige experience - from the objective stuff (features/equipment) to the peripheral stuff that's much harder to nail down, such as brand image and the dealership's exclusivity. Many people who spend $35k-up on a car don't want to have to mingle with people who buy $12k econo-boxes.

    Ford makes good cars, no question - but it doesn't have the cachet of BMW, Lexus, etc.

    Another issue is the absence of a manual transmission (as reported, anyhow). I don't care how efficient/capable/quick an automatic or CVT is - there is nothing like handling a clutch and shifting your own gears. A performance car that doesn't offer that is missing something essential. It may be quick as hell - but is it fun? Are you a driver? Or just a guy sitting behind the wheel?

    PS: Charger (R/T and otherwise) is not doing well, as I'm sure you know... .
    Last edited by Eric; 02-20-2009 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyW View Post
    Fellas, the 2010 SHO will not be front-wheel drive. It will use a Haldex all-wheel drive system. As far as it being overpriced, can you name for me a few other cars this size that offer AWD, over 350 h.p., a similar level of luxury features, and a price that is lower? The Dodge Charger R/T AWD seems a pretty fair comparison and it is $1800 cheaper. Are there any others?

    One of the car magazines (maybe Motor Trend?) calculated out the inflation and determined that the 2010 SHO is only a couple hundred dollars more expensive than the original SHO, when adjusted for inflation. The first-generation Taurus SHO seemed pretty popular despite being expensive for a Ford.

    Randy,

    Thanks for the correction. After looking over the specs and press photos of the 2010 Taurus SHO, it indeed appears to be worth what the asking price will be. I mistakenly assumed the 2010 SHO would be front-wheel drive and not all-wheel drive. Though I would prefer an all-wheel drive based on a rear wheel drive platform such as the all-wheel drive system on the Hemi Charger you mentioned. The all-wheel drive based on a front-wheel drive platform (with a mounted sideways style engine) will suffice judging from how the similar setup 2009 Lincoln MKS works pretty well.

    However I agree with Eric, with no manual transmission option available it's a disappointment. I remember that's what made the original 1988 SHO so much fun to drive.

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    Eric and Disco Man, I prefer manual transmissions myself. I had a 1992 (I think) SHO with a five-speed and it was pretty nice. That's the one missing feature that keeps the new SHO from being a dream sedan for me. In the real world though, I wouldn't be able to get one of these with a manual even if it were available. My wife has a bad knee (been broken twice) and she's not going to go for a car with a manual for her daily driver. When she drives my Corvette on occasion, she's fine, but she wouldn't put up with shifting all the time. As for my own preferences, I could think of a lot of cars, both foreign and domestic, that I'd like to see come with a manual transmission. It breaks my heart to think of all the otherwise fine machinery that comes with an automatic only.

    Regarding the price again, Eric, I don't know. You may be right that $40K is just too much for the average consumer to pay for a Ford. On the other hand, who thought we'd see the day when pickups like the Chevy Silverado are going for over $40K? We'll have to see how well it drives and exactly what the equipment list includes. And if it doesn't sell well, perhaps the Lincoln MKS with Ecoboost will sell, since it's got a more expensive brand name.

    Randy

  10. #10
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyW View Post
    Eric and Disco Man, I prefer manual transmissions myself. I had a 1992 (I think) SHO with a five-speed and it was pretty nice. That's the one missing feature that keeps the new SHO from being a dream sedan for me. In the real world though, I wouldn't be able to get one of these with a manual even if it were available. My wife has a bad knee (been broken twice) and she's not going to go for a car with a manual for her daily driver. When she drives my Corvette on occasion, she's fine, but she wouldn't put up with shifting all the time. As for my own preferences, I could think of a lot of cars, both foreign and domestic, that I'd like to see come with a manual transmission. It breaks my heart to think of all the otherwise fine machinery that comes with an automatic only.

    Regarding the price again, Eric, I don't know. You may be right that $40K is just too much for the average consumer to pay for a Ford. On the other hand, who thought we'd see the day when pickups like the Chevy Silverado are going for over $40K? We'll have to see how well it drives and exactly what the equipment list includes. And if it doesn't sell well, perhaps the Lincoln MKS with Ecoboost will sell, since it's got a more expensive brand name.

    Randy
    Hi Randy,

    Definitely hear you that some people need an automatic, whether out of convenience or necessity. I just think Ford should have it available - for the same reason that most serious sport sedans at least offer manuals. Being automatic-only will hurt the SHO in terms of image, among enthusiast buyers. And if enthusiast buyers don't like it, that's a problem, I'd argue.

    On price: My opinion here is that Ford could make some real headway by offering affordable performance; in other words, rather than trying to compete with BMWs, etc. - why not cut the legs out from under them?

    A good example is the MazdaSpeed3. What a great little car - and for $23k it can run with EVOs and WRXs that cost closer to $30k.

    Imagine a 300 hp SHO that stickered for about what you can buy an entry-level Maxima for.... around $27k or so. Now that would be hugely appealing - in my book anyhow. And it would give the SHO a selling point it won't have at its currently projected mid-$30k price point, where it will have to try to make a case for itself as the equal - in every way - of established "prestige brand" cars, as opposed to a way for middle class Americans to embarrass drivers of those over-priced/pretentious imports.

    PS: Welcome to the site!
    Last edited by Eric; 02-23-2009 at 08:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Ridin Dirty dom's Avatar
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    The bottom line

    Who is going to pay 40k for a Taurus?

    Is there really a market for his car?



    Welcome RandyW.

    ############### Weird!! I didn't write any of this below -dom ##############

    I agree. I don't see it, either. The SHO ought to be an alternative to high-priced import sport sedans. Ford can absolutely match or even beat BMW, Lexus, Benz, etc. on performance. But it can't match them on prestige. Not gonna happen. No offense; just a reality check. In the same way that Corvette, no matter how quick it is, what its lap time around the Ring is, etc. - will never be in the same league as a Lamborghini or Ferrari. But the upside is that Regular Joes canhope to own a Corvette one day - whereas they will never get near a Lambo. And, they'll be able to experience comparable - maybe even better - actual performance, and embarrass the Lambo/Ferrari owner. That is what Ford should be looking to achieve with the SHO.

    But it seems that Ford, like VW, doesn't "get" that it is not - and never will be - a prestige brand. That is not a bad thing, by any means. But you need to know your market - and quit trying to sell things that aren't "you."

    This mistake just keeps on being made, over and over and over...
    Last edited by Eric; 02-23-2009 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    The bottom line

    Who is going to pay 40k for a Taurus?

    Is there really a market for his car?
    I understand what you are saying however name me another vehicle that has all-wheel drive and 350 plus horsepower (besides the AWD Chrysler LX cars with the Hemi) for less than $40,000. Audi, BMW, etc. offer this but for much more money. Granted it's a Ford but it still makes over 350 horsepower with all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive cars are not cheap. Even the EVO X is almost $40,000 and it has only 291 horsepower. With all-wheel drive the Tauras is priced much cheaper than all it's competors except the all-wheel drive Chrysler LX cars equipped with the 5.7 liter Hemi.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Man View Post
    I understand what you are saying however name me another vehicle that has all-wheel drive and 350 plus horsepower (besides the AWD Chrysler LX cars with the Hemi) for less than $40,000. Audi, BMW, etc. offer this but for much more money. Granted it's a Ford but it still makes over 350 horsepower with all-wheel drive. All-wheel drive cars are not cheap. Even the EVO X is almost $40,000 and it has only 291 horsepower. With all-wheel drive the Tauras is priced much cheaper than all it's competors except the all-wheel drive Chrysler LX cars equipped with the 5.7 liter Hemi.
    I'm not sure AWD is such a draw, frankly. Then, take away the manual transmission - and the fact that it's still "just" a Ford (again, no offense - just a reality check)... and I dunno.

    A BMW 335Xi with AWD - and a six-speed manual - is $42,300. Granted, it has "only" 300 hp from its twin-turbo six. But do you think the SHO even with 50 more hp can really go toe to toe with the 335Xi? (And by that I don't mean just performance. I think at this price point you have to factor in status/prestige, expected depreciation, etc.)

    Back to AWD: I personally would rather have a RWD car with a manual; or a FWD car with a stick that costs $25k (see MazdaSpeed3).

    I maybe wrong about this, but I would not bet on the SHO's success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I'm not sure AWD is such a draw, frankly. Then, take away the manual transmission - and the fact that it's still "just" a Ford (again, no offense - just a reality check)... and I dunno.

    A BMW 335Xi with AWD - and a six-speed manual - is $42,300. Granted, it has "only" 300 hp from its twin-turbo six. But do you think the SHO even with 50 more hp can really go toe to toe with the 335Xi? (And by that I don't mean just performance. I think at this price point you have to factor in status/prestige, expected depreciation, etc.)

    Back to AWD: I personally would rather have a RWD car with a manual; or a FWD car with a stick that costs $25k (see MazdaSpeed3).

    I maybe wrong about this, but I would not bet on the SHO's success.
    The 2010 Tauras needs all-wheel drive with it's 365 horsepower motor torque steer would be a big issue if it were only front-wheel drive. The trend in recent years has been to all-wheel drive cars. There are many more on the road now than five years ago.

    Will the 2010 SHO be a big success? I don't know. A lot has to do with how well it preforms (if it beats more expensive comparible BMWs and other European sedans in handling, acceleration, driving feel, etc. that will help to boast sales) and if it is accepted by the buying public.

    For someone wanting an all-wheel drive sports sedan with 365 horsepower in 2010, this will be one of least expensive available.

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    Ridin Dirty dom's Avatar
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    HA, Eric.. You hijacked my post up there.. HA

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dom View Post
    HA, Eric.. You hijacked my post up there.. HA
    I done hit the wrong button - sorry!

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    Ridin Dirty dom's Avatar
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    No problem, do it anytime you like. Just makes me look better on paper!

    HA

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Man View Post
    The 2010 Tauras needs all-wheel drive with it's 365 horsepower motor torque steer would be a big issue if it were only front-wheel drive. The trend in recent years has been to all-wheel drive cars. There are many more on the road now than five years ago.

    Will the 2010 SHO be a big success? I don't know. A lot has to do with how well it preforms (if it beats more expensive comparible BMWs and other European sedans in handling, acceleration, driving feel, etc. that will help to boast sales) and if it is accepted by the buying public.

    For someone wanting an all-wheel drive sports sedan with 365 horsepower in 2010, this will be one of least expensive available.
    Valid points; but here are some counterpoints:

    AWD adds both weight and expense; also hurts fuel economy by a couple MPGs, which is no small thing now as a result of both the economy and pending CAFE. The SHO is going to hurt Ford's CAFE numbers - which will be compounded by slow sales due to the high cost of the car.

    At core, Ford has a problem in that it lacks an upscale performance brand image like BMW, GM (Cadillac) or Lexus, etc.

    Lincoln is an old man's car with a terrible image right now. Fords, meanwhile, are perfectly good cars but in no way can they be put into the same league as prestige-brand cars from BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, etc.

    I think, bottom line, that sometimes it's best to leave the past in the past. Both Ford and GM (and Chrysler) keep trying to resurrect cars that were successful decades ago but which arguably don't fit the times.

    The original Taurus SHO did well, in part, because the Taurus itself was a huge phenomenon in the '80s. Today's Taurus is a good car, but it is not a star; indeed, it is almost completely anonymous.

    Also, the original SHO came to market at a time when there were not many hi-perf sedans out there - at least, none that were reasonably priced. So it had a much larger potential market to exploit. But to today, the market is overflowing with powerful/great handling sport sedans and wagons - at just about every price point. The competition will be much more fierce.

    I go back to my earlier argument that Ford would have been smart to make the pending SHO a "budget" performance sedan instead of trying to compete on equal terms with prestige-brand/status cars from Lexus, BMW, etc.

    But, we'll see!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Valid points; but here are some counterpoints:

    AWD adds both weight and expense; also hurts fuel economy by a couple MPGs, which is no small thing now as a result of both the economy and pending CAFE. The SHO is going to hurt Ford's CAFE numbers - which will be compounded by slow sales due to the high cost of the car.

    At core, Ford has a problem in that it lacks an upscale performance brand image like BMW, GM (Cadillac) or Lexus, etc.

    Lincoln is an old man's car with a terrible image right now. Fords, meanwhile, are perfectly good cars but in no way can they be put into the same league as prestige-brand cars from BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, etc.

    I think, bottom line, that sometimes it's best to leave the past in the past. Both Ford and GM (and Chrysler) keep trying to resurrect cars that were successful decades ago but which arguably don't fit the times.

    The original Taurus SHO did well, in part, because the Taurus itself was a huge phenomenon in the '80s. Today's Taurus is a good car, but it is not a star; indeed, it is almost completely anonymous.

    Also, the original SHO came to market at a time when there were not many hi-perf sedans out there - at least, none that were reasonably priced. So it had a much larger potential market to exploit. But to today, the market is overflowing with powerful/great handling sport sedans and wagons - at just about every price point. The competition will be much more fierce.

    I go back to my earlier argument that Ford would have been smart to make the pending SHO a "budget" performance sedan instead of trying to compete on equal terms with prestige-brand/status cars from Lexus, BMW, etc.

    But, we'll see!
    Eric,

    I understand what you're saying however I believe the issue is inflation. The original Tauras SHO back in 1989 had a base price of around $20,000 as I recall. If you convert $20,000 in 1989 dollars to 2009 dollars (factoring inflation) that would be about $37,000 roughly. That's right around the base price of a 2010 Tauras SHO (which will have a base price of $37,995). The new SHO will have all-wheel drive and 145 more horsepower than a 1989 Taurus SHO for about the same money (due to inflation). That's what I consider progress.


    ..

  20. #20
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Man View Post
    Eric,

    I understand what you're saying however I believe the issue is inflation. The original Tauras SHO back in 1989 had a base price of around $20,000 as I recall. If you convert $20,000 in 1989 dollars to 2009 dollars (factoring inflation) that would be about $37,000 roughly. That's right around the base price of a 2010 Tauras SHO (which will have a base price of $37,995). The new SHO will have all-wheel drive and 145 more horsepower than a 1989 Taurus SHO for about the same money (due to inflation). That's what I consider progress.


    ..
    This made me think of two related things:

    First, incomes haven't kept pace with inflation; so while the price of the 2010 Taurus may be comparable in real terms with the price of the '89 model, the average person's income is still at '89 levels in real terms. Which means it's much harder to afford the $38k Ford plans to ask for the car.

    The cost ties in to my second (and earlier point), which is that Ford is not a prestige brand and that by pricing itself with prestige-branded cars, it invites unflattering comparisons in areas where it cannot hope to compete, such as status, the dealer experience, resale values, etc.

    I think, bottom line, that there are way too many $40k cars. The market can no longer sustain this. Ford was probably assuming a pre-crash economy, in which case the thing might have done ok. But I really doubt many people are going to line up to pay $40k for a hopped-up Taurus, especially in this economy.

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