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Thread: Christians and torture

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Christians and torture

    You have probably heard that, according to a couple of recent polls, many Christians (specifically, evangelical Christians) favor the use of torture against alleged terrorist suspects (and by implication, any person who is "suspected" of something/accused by the government of something).

    Evangelical Christianity sure seems to be infused with blood lust; the instinct to "burn the witch!" is apparently still there.

    It's another reason why the whole thing gives me the creeps. A group of people claim a divine being demands "x" and "y" (with the only proof of such divine injunctions being some "holy" book or the interpretation of said "holy" book by supposed "holy" men) and that to disagree or object is not merely to disagree or object but to be wrong, even evil - in which case, the offender is beyond the pale and deserving of everything from denial of due process and civil liberties all the way to state-sanctioned torture.

    All religions I am aware of with the exception of Buddhism are implicitly violent toward all other religions/belief systems. They do no accept let alone tolerate "different strokes for different folks." They demand conversion and submissions. Our way or the highway.

    And down that road lies state-sanctioned torture chambers.
    Last edited by Eric; 08-18-2009 at 11:13 AM.

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    Eric and Everybody;

    I was raised Catholic and go to church on Sunday. However with me I just take out the good points of Church. For example I like going to confession and confessing my sins. For some reason this humbles me and I realize I'm a sinner no question. I like mixing it up with people in my Church. You know you can find some very good people in Church,and I know they would come to my aid in times of trouble. I like listening to the homilies. I like going with my kids and afterward going out for breakfast.
    This being said some things about going to Church sort of bothers me. Like all the envelops that need green in them. I just don't have it. I hate when they spend an hour talking about money but luckily this does not happen often.
    My brother is agnostic and probably way better guy then me. He is good to his wife, friendly and very smart. My father is that way too. I personally believe in the after life God and Jesus. I think there is more another plan after all our suffering and misery. here. However I try to get along with everyone no matter if your atheist or Muslim tolerance is the keys to life.
    Being Catholic is difficult and talking to some stout Catholics about my life it's almost like I'm going to hell because I'm divorced and enjoy sex and stuff like that. That is I'm not married and sex is part of marriage but for guys like me who enjoy not being married I'm a grave sinner to say the least. Heaven or Hell I'll still be Adam and live my life like no tomorrow and hope they're won't be hell to pay afterward.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Eric and Everybody;

    I was raised Catholic and go to church on Sunday. However with me I just take out the good points of Church. For example I like going to confession and confessing my sins. For some reason this humbles me and I realize I'm a sinner no question. I like mixing it up with people in my Church. You know you can find some very good people in Church,and I know they would come to my aid in times of trouble. I like listening to the homilies. I like going with my kids and afterward going out for breakfast.
    This being said some things about going to Church sort of bothers me. Like all the envelops that need green in them. I just don't have it. I hate when they spend an hour talking about money but luckily this does not happen often.
    My brother is agnostic and probably way better guy then me. He is good to his wife, friendly and very smart. My father is that way too. I personally believe in the after life God and Jesus. I think there is more another plan after all our suffering and misery. here. However I try to get along with everyone no matter if your atheist or Muslim tolerance is the keys to life.
    Being Catholic is difficult and talking to some stout Catholics about my life it's almost like I'm going to hell because I'm divorced and enjoy sex and stuff like that. That is I'm not married and sex is part of marriage but for guys like me who enjoy not being married I'm a grave sinner to say the least. Heaven or Hell I'll still be Adam and live my life like no tomorrow and hope they're won't be hell to pay afterward.
    I can understand (and even agree with) much of what you've written. But I'm curious and wonder if you'll be ok with my asking (because I intend no offense): You say you believe in God/Jesus. Why? This kind of thing has been a mystery to me since I was very young. I just don't "get" it. I can only believe things to be true that have evidence to support their being true; never just "because" or because "it is written," etc.

    Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I can understand (and even agree with) much of what you've written. But I'm curious and wonder if you'll be ok with my asking (because I intend no offense): You say you believe in God/Jesus. Why? This kind of thing has been a mystery to me since I was very young. I just don't "get" it. I can only believe things to be true that have evidence to support their being true; never just "because" or because "it is written," etc.

    Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated....
    Eric,

    Who created you? There's always a cause for a result. For instance an engine does not start unless it has spark, air, and fuel. An atheist would believe the engine started by itself. Some greater being created the earth and placed us here, and that being is God. Things are not created out of nothingness, it's impossible.

    One suggestion I have is to pray to God and Jesus to show you a sign and help you to obtain the gift of faith. I am 100% sure he will provide you with what you ask.



    Adam,

    The whole reason we Catholics have the sacrament of Penance/Confession, is because human beings are weak. It's a sacrament that indeed brings about humility, it has made me more humble. When you fall, you get back on your feet and get things right with God and Christ with the intention of keeping out of the occasions of sin (through Penance). God understands the struggles, these are tough times we live in. Best thing to do is keep trudging forward and remaining faithful to the Church and its teaching. Even the saints struggled greatly.

  5. #5
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    "Who created you? There's always a cause for a result. For instance an engine does not start unless it has spark, air, and fuel."

    That's certainly true - but it's a big leap to go from that to the very specific god of Christianity as being responsible for all of creation. Why (and again, I mean no offense - just asking) not Ra or Allah or Hutzilopochlti or any of the other countless gods people have believed in?

    "Some greater being created the earth and placed us here, and that being is God."

    That's an assertion of belief, but what facts lie behind this?

    "Things are not created out of nothingness, it's impossible."

    I am no physicist (not smart enough!) but my crude understanding is that matter, as such, is essentially unreal. At the subatomic level, there are particles and electrical fields. All that is material, that which we are and see, derives from these basic building blocks. Perhaps something did create these elemental particles and forces. But if so, what created that something? The problem of infinite regression...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You have probably heard that, according to a couple of recent polls, many Christians (specifically, evangelical Christians) favor the use of torture against alleged terrorist suspects (and by implication, any person who is "suspected" of something/accused by the government of something).
    First and foremost torture goes against the very nature of Christianity. Any Christian who supports torture is not a Christian.

    The flaw in your reasoning is that you use "pretender" Christians as an excuse to hate Christianity. Christianity is about Christ. As the old saying goes - "what would Christ do?" He would be against torture, he died a torture filled death on a cross 2000 years ago for our sins.

    Our "political leaders" who start these wars and sanction such acts of depravity as torture are all free-masons that belong to such groups as the Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderbergs, Trilateral Commission, Skull and Bones, etc. A lot of these leaders pretend to be Christians. Albert Pike is the free-mason (and founder of the Klu Klux Klan) that many free-masons revere (he is mentioned by Ed Harris' character in the recent National Treasure Book of Secrets movie). Pike admitted in his writings that free-masonry was about worshiping lucifer. This why the Catholic Church asserts that any Catholic who joins a free-mason group is to be excommunicated. The last U.S. President who was not a free-mason was John F. Kennedy.

    Watch this, it speaks volumes of the current situation and why both political parties work for the same small group of elite bankers:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Disco Man View Post
    . The last U.S. President who was not a free-mason was John F. Kennedy.

    Watch this, it speaks volumes of the current situation and why both political parties work for the same small group of elite bankers:


    Agreed, but I thought Reagan was the last president who was not a freemason. An attempt was made on Reagan's life by the son of a friend of George H.W. Bush, John Hinckley.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    "First and foremost torture goes against the very nature of Christianity. Any Christian who supports torture is not a Christian."

    I agree - which means (if polls are at all accurate) that the majority of "Christian" evangelicals (or a hell of a lot of them, pardon the pun!) aren't Christian!

    "The flaw in your reasoning is that you use "pretender" Christians as an excuse to hate Christianity. Christianity is about Christ. As the old saying goes - "what would Christ do?" He would be against torture, he died a torture filled death on a cross 2000 years ago for our sins. "

    I think it was Ghandi who said he liked our Christ, but not our Christians!


    Good video - do you think there's any chance people (meaning, enough to matter) will ever wake up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    Agreed, but I thought Reagan was the last president who was not a freemason. An attempt was made on Reagan's life by the son of a friend of George H.W. Bush, John Hinckley.
    That is correct about the Hinckley-Bush connection and you are partially correct about Reagan not being a freemason. He was not a freemason when he was elected president but later on he was made an "honorary member". Whether Regan embraced it we don't know, but here is a quote from http://www.cephas-library.com/famous.html :

    "Ronald Reagan-- Jim Shaw reports that President Reagan was brought into the Lodge while in office. The official Masonic line is, "President Reagan is not a Freemason although he is an honourary member of the Imperial Council of the Shrine. President Reagan has on numerous occasions been involved in Shrine and Masonic functions throughout his career. In the Oval Office of the White House on February 11th, 1988, when a group of Freemasons presented President Reagan with a certificate of honour from the Grand Lodge of Washington, D.C., then he was made an Honourary Scottish Rite mason." It was at this event that Jim Shaw claims that "a world famous evengelist" was also oathed into Masonic degrees. Jim Shaw was iced shortly after publishing his claims in a book."

    Reagan had attended the Bohemian grove before becoming President.

    Here's a picture of Reagan and Nixon at the Bohemian Grove (picture appears to have been taken in late 1960s or early 1970s):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Good video - do you think there's any chance people (meaning, enough to matter) will ever wake up?
    Yes I believe it is already happening. I am seeing people who a few years ago laughed when this topic was brought up, thinking it was a crazy conspiracy theory. Now they are awake and spreading the word. One person who I know that was like this, surprised me by sending me a link to this Obama Deception video a few months back.

    As an example a few years ago the majority of Americans thought the Federal Reserve was a government entity. Now they realize its a private bank run by a group of international elite bankers. The change is due to two factors - 1) Ron Paul's presidential run in 2008 and 2) the terrible economic situation (people go to sleep when they have plenty of money in their pocket however when they fall on hard times they want to know why).

    Currently a majority of Congressmen (282 co-sponsers) have agreed to support Ron Paul's audit the Federal Reserve Bill:

    http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues...serve-hr-1207/

    Who would have thought this possible a few years ago?

    And Bernie Sanders (a socialist) is the person in the US Senate who has introduced his version of Ron Paul's Audit the Federal Reserve Bill in the Senate now has co-sponsers (this is a sign all sides are beginning to come together for the same cause):

    http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/n...e-68f445017b94

    It's only a matter of time before the Federal Reserve gets abolished and with it a return to the freedoms our ancestors before 1913 had.

    The elite bankers won't give up without a fight however the momentum is on the side of the people, and there are sure a lot more of the people than the small group of elite bankers.

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    I can understand (and even agree with) much of what you've written. But I'm curious and wonder if you'll be ok with my asking (because I intend no offense): You say you believe in God/Jesus. Why? This kind of thing has been a mystery to me since I was very young. I just don't "get" it. I can only believe things to be true that have evidence to support their being true; never just "because" or because "it is written," etc.

    Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated....

    Eric and Friends;

    God appears to us in mysterious ways. Sometimes through prayer but usually you'll hear about somethings that are truely unexplainable. Perhaps it's a cancer patient being cured of his or her disease or you maybe somebody involved in an auto accident and coming out of it unscratched. Sometimes the unexplainable things in life that are mysterious to us or stupefying us might be the work of God. I know lot's of people who pray and pray hard receive the wishes they've asked for.
    While God appears to us in mysterious ways ,Mary the Mother of Jesus has been sighted and documented throughout history and in many parts of the world. She is still seen till this day. I try to pray the rosary everyday.If nothing else it helps keep me calmer through turbulent times. Prayer helps me everyday to get through the rough times.
    I'm probably not the best guy arguing all this as I've said before being a bigtime sinner and troublemaker but I believe 100% in the existence of God. Jesus has walked on this earth over 2000 years ago. His miracles are well documented in the Bible too. He died for our sins.
    I use to be part of a Bible study group with a bunch of men of all ages. We not only discussed the Bible mostly the New Testiment but also about our lives. All of us went through hellish times in our lives. Alchohol abuse, divorces,deaths and horrible tragedies. We talked how it all effected us and how God helped us get through it all. Prayer is the best way to get through difficult times. It has worked not only for me but millions and millions of people. If people prayed more and loved one another like God wants us too there would be no need for fear or guns. In my opinion prayer is a million times better then anything man has to protect himself with.

  12. #12
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    I can understand (and even agree with) much of what you've written. But I'm curious and wonder if you'll be ok with my asking (because I intend no offense): You say you believe in God/Jesus. Why? This kind of thing has been a mystery to me since I was very young. I just don't "get" it. I can only believe things to be true that have evidence to support their being true; never just "because" or because "it is written," etc.

    Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated....

    Eric and Friends;

    God appears to us in mysterious ways. Sometimes through prayer but usually you'll hear about somethings that are truely unexplainable. Perhaps it's a cancer patient being cured of his or her disease or you maybe somebody involved in an auto accident and coming out of it unscratched. Sometimes the unexplainable things in life that are mysterious to us or stupefying us might be the work of God. I know lot's of people who pray and pray hard receive the wishes they've asked for.
    While God appears to us in mysterious ways ,Mary the Mother of Jesus has been sighted and documented throughout history and in many parts of the world. She is still seen till this day. I try to pray the rosary everyday.If nothing else it helps keep me calmer through turbulent times. Prayer helps me everyday to get through the rough times.
    I'm probably not the best guy arguing all this as I've said before being a bigtime sinner and troublemaker but I believe 100% in the existence of God. Jesus has walked on this earth over 2000 years ago. His miracles are well documented in the Bible too. He died for our sins.
    I use to be part of a Bible study group with a bunch of men of all ages. We not only discussed the Bible mostly the New Testiment but also about our lives. All of us went through hellish times in our lives. Alchohol abuse, divorces,deaths and horrible tragedies. We talked how it all effected us and how God helped us get through it all. Prayer is the best way to get through difficult times. It has worked not only for me but millions and millions of people. If people prayed more and loved one another like God wants us too there would be no need for fear or guns. In my opinion prayer is a million times better then anything man has to protect himself with.
    I like the Indian idea of a "great spirit" that animates creation - a creation that is, indeed, magnificent (though also flawed and full of horrors as well as beauty).

    But I can't logically buy into the notion of an anthropomorphic God who is supposed to be the "one" God yet is also said to have a "son" who is a distinct and separate being (hence, at least two gods) who is (because he is a god, after all) immortal yet supposedly "dies" and "rises" as a kind of vicarious sacrifice for the sins of humanity. It just makes no sense to me at all.

  13. #13
    Eric:

    You have probably heard that, according to a couple of recent polls, many Christians (specifically, evangelical Christians) favor the use of torture against alleged terrorist suspects (and by implication, any person who is "suspected" of something/accused by the government of something).

    Evangelical Christianity sure seems to be infused with blood lust; the instinct to "burn the witch!" is apparently still there.

    It's another reason why the whole thing gives me the creeps. A group of people claim a divine being demands "x" and "y" (with the only proof of such divine injunctions being some "holy" book or the interpretation of said "holy" book by supposed "holy" men) and that to disagree or object is not merely to disagree or object but to be wrong, even evil - in which case, the offender is beyond the pale and deserving of everything from denial of due process and civil liberties all the way to state-sanctioned torture.

    All religions I am aware of with the exception of Buddhism are implicitly violent toward all other religions/belief systems. They do no accept let alone tolerate "different strokes for different folks." They demand conversion and submissions. Our way or the highway.

    And down that road lies state-sanctioned torture chambers.
    Historically things almost always get very ugly when religion and politics mix. That's why the Founding Fathers of this country very wisely made sure that there would be no State religion nor government sponsored religion.

    If you study the history of the 1st century Christian church you see that Jesus' followers were apolitical and did not advocate nor practice violence in their dealings with others, including non-believers or even the Roman and Jewish officials who opposed them. In fact it wasn't until the late 4th century when nominal Christians finally began to take up arms for the State and engage in wars. (This was due to "Saint" Augustine's "just war" theory which went contrary to the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles. The theory has been used as a rationale for wars ever since, all the way up to the present)

    So I would argue that nominal Christians who support not only torture but secular warfare, period, do so by contradicting the teachings of those whom they claim to follow.
    Last edited by KentAZ; 06-21-2010 at 07:14 AM.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KentAZ View Post
    Eric:

    Historically things almost always get very ugly when religion and politics mix. That's why the Founding Fathers of this country very wisely made sure that there would be no State religion nor government sponsored religion.

    If you study the history of the 1st century Christian church you see that Jesus' followers were apolitical and did not advocate nor practice violence in their dealings with others, including non-believers or even the Roman and Jewish officials who opposed them. In fact it wasn't until the late 4th century when nominal Christians finally began to take up arms for the State and engage in wars. (This was due to "Saint" Augustine's "just war" theory which went contrary to the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles. The theory has been used as a rationale for wars ever since, all the way up to the present)

    So I would argue that nominal Christians who support not only torture but secular warfare, period, do so by contradicting the teachings of those whom they claim to follow.
    Amen and well-said!

    PS: There's also that nagging business in the New Testament about shunning material wealth... and yet the Pope wears Prada and most of these evangelical types I encounter are driving $50,000 SUVs and living in suburban McMansions...

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