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Thread: Goodbye, Number Five

  1. #1
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Goodbye, Number Five

    Next time you get pulled over by a cop - or stopped at random in a "sobriety checkpoint" - you might want to remember the following laugh line: It's called the Fifth Amendment to the Bill of Rights, which reads, in part, that "No person... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself."

    Ho ho ho!

    It's a laugh line, because, like, so many of the other amendments to the Bill of Rights, pleading the Fifth - that is, declining to assist the authorities in your own prosecution - is a sick joke.

    Or like them, is about to become one.

    Because cops may soon have the legal authority to forcibly extract blood from you in order to use that blood as evidence against you in DWI cases - which are criminal proceedings.

    Refuse to take a Breathalyzler (for whatever reason) or perform the trained monkey act by the side of the road (perhaps because you're not coordinated even if completely sober and probably a lot less so under pressure and in the glow of a policeman's flashlight) and you could find yourself thrown down across the hood of a squad car while some cop jams your body with needles in order to get the blood that will then be used as evidence against you at your trail.

    Oh, but they will be Trained!

    Well, sort of, kinda. A "compressed" version of the same program taken by blood techs - phlebotomists, in medical jargon - will be the curriculum vitae of these state-sanctioned thugs.

    Feel better now?

    It's all part of a new federal program - yes, another one - the stated purpose of which will be to determine how effective a "tool" such tactics would be in the ongoing (and endless) crusade against drunk driving. If it is deemed "effective" (do you doubt it will be?) then it will become as commonly practiced across this formerly free land as all the other outrages against civility and basic legal due process we have already assented to.

    The badge-lickers out there will see no trouble here, either. After all, if you're not driving drunk, what have you got to be worried about? Those nice cops would never use force against an innocent person! They will be trained! The lab people don't make mistakes, not even every now and then.

    And, of course - drunk driving is a bad thing!

    It makes me shiver with dread to see just how close to the abyss we really are. The Masses - or a great part of them - have become sickeningly compliant authority worshippers of the late-Soviet or 1920s Weimar Germany type who submit to anything demanded of them by the state. And who often bristle with righteous indignation when the occasional semi-sentient citizen dares to raise an objection. Such a person is either a soft-headed "liberal" (if the objector is a badge-licking "law and order" Republican type) or (if the objector is the liberal), the person raising pesky questions is smeared as being opposed to "safety" - or someone who favors (in this case) "drunk driving."

    Neither sees - or would give a damn about it, if they did - the point. Which is that empowering cops to physically hold you down and draw blood from your body against your will - to be used as evidence against you in a criminal proceeding - is to rape the Fifth Amendment and thus, another basic and ancient tenet of the late great tradition we used to call the rule of law.

    All in a good cause?

    Only if you're a fool - or the government, which knows what the real payoff here is.

    "Getting dangerous drunks off the road" is no more the issue than the random stop and frisks we're now routinely subjected to when traveling (and even when not) or the indefinite detentions of anyone the government wishes - with or without waterboardings - are about "fighting terror."

    The issue is teaching the people to Obey and Submit. To condition them to accept the idea that anything the government does, at any time and for whatever reason (or no reason at all) is acceptable - including the use of physical force against people even suspected of having committed some offense.

    And if you're not guilty of "drunk driving?"

    Sorry about that, John Q. Be sure to hold that bandage against your elbow for at least the next 10 minutes to staunch the flow of blood.

    Have a nice day.

    As for due process: The Maggot Masses do not grasp the concept; they are too busy watching football - or keeping track of the John and Kate plus Eight.

    It's what really matters these days.

  2. #2
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    The people who thought of this idea need to have a dull needle jammed into their skulls until they bleed. That's all I got to say about that.

    This makes my blood boil.

  3. #3

    jab me in the arm

    If you live in Austin, TX, you already know your blood will be taken by the Gestapo, like it or not. This has been going on for several months now. They imported a new chief of police from LA, Art Acevedo, that has so many fresh ideas. Up until now, it has only been taking place only on holiday weekends. Welcome to the capital of Texas.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    As for due process: The Maggot Masses do not grasp the concept; they are too busy watching football - or keeping track of the John and Kate plus Eight.

    It's what really matters these days.
    Well here in sunny Minnesota, land of 10,000 taxes, and 10,000+ rules, where there is a law against everything, all is 'controlled'.

    We have a really special sales tax, just to pay for the Twins stadium. Like wise the MN Gophers (that's a regal mascot, some rodent) just built a $500M stadium, and continue to raise tution 5% - 8% annually.

    We have electronic signs to notify about traffic conditions, etc. When there are no problems, the signs display a message to the effect: "Increased DWI enforcement.. blah, blah, blah".

    Jesus H. Christ, stick your DWI speel up you butt! Maybe you should also include H1N1, the other manufactured crisis. Also save the whales, and global climate change (since it's now getting cooler, we have to call it change, no longer warming).

    I like the movie Fargo, early in the movie where the state cop pulls them over.......

  5. #5

    jab me in the arm

    If you live in Austin, TX, you already know that the APD Gestapo have been taking blood samples from drivers they think may have been drinking. (if the breath device refused) They have been doing this for several months now, mostly on holiday weekends. The new chief of police imported from LA, Art Acevedo, has many fresh new ideas. Another is putting cops behind the wheel of city buses, and if you pass the slow moving bus and don't use your turn signal, guess what? He radios another cop to ticket you. I wonder if the cop has a CDL with a passenger endorsement...

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    Eric, I agree that DUI enforcement goes too far in some cases. I particularly hate sobriety checkpoints. Besides the blood sample thing, you're also opposed to Breathalyzers (which I understand can be inaccurate) and "the trained monkey act". What is your counter proposal? If a cop sees someone driving too slow and weaving a little, what should he do to determine whether the driver is drunk or not?

    Randy

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyW View Post
    Eric, I agree that DUI enforcement goes too far in some cases. I particularly hate sobriety checkpoints. Besides the blood sample thing, you're also opposed to Breathalyzers (which I understand can be inaccurate) and "the trained monkey act". What is your counter proposal? If a cop sees someone driving too slow and weaving a little, what should he do to determine whether the driver is drunk or not?

    Randy
    The person should be cited for driving too slowly and weaving and if appears drunk, he should be cited for that if proper testing is done. I have no problem with the person being held until someone can come with proper equipment to do a blood test. A proper warrant should be issued to hold the suspect. What I do have a problem with is some cop, with little or no training, drawing blood. Having some thug bully with a badge, a gun, a taser and a needle is too much. Cops have way too much power. Roadside blood tests are unconstitutional. Given the penalties for this type of offense (and I'm using an argument that pinhead judges use), the suspect deserves proper due process. I don't give a fucking damn what that crook, over educated pinhead shithead judge says.
    Last edited by swamprat; 09-17-2009 at 02:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperliberi@hotmail.com View Post
    If you live in Austin, TX, you already know that the APD Gestapo have been taking blood samples from drivers they think may have been drinking. (if the breath device refused) They have been doing this for several months now, mostly on holiday weekends. The new chief of police imported from LA, Art Acevedo, has many fresh new ideas. Another is putting cops behind the wheel of city buses, and if you pass the slow moving bus and don't use your turn signal, guess what? He radios another cop to ticket you. I wonder if the cop has a CDL with a passenger endorsement...
    Hi Semper,

    Yeah - I've heard about this; it's almost unbelievable. Almost. But not anymore. I often wonder just how far it will go - and how much we will put up with.

    I'm not optimistic... .

    PS: Welcome to the site; good to have you with us!

  9. #9
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyW View Post
    Eric, I agree that DUI enforcement goes too far in some cases. I particularly hate sobriety checkpoints. Besides the blood sample thing, you're also opposed to Breathalyzers (which I understand can be inaccurate) and "the trained monkey act". What is your counter proposal? If a cop sees someone driving too slow and weaving a little, what should he do to determine whether the driver is drunk or not?

    Randy
    Hey Randy -

    Ok, first of all, only individuals who give a specific/demonstrable reason for a cop to suspect impairment (erratic driving, for example) should be targeted for further investigation. This dragnet business - checkpoints that treat every person on the road as presumptively drunk and which subject them to what amounts to a criminal interrogation based on zero probable cause - are an outrage.

    Now, if a cop suspects a particular individual of being impaired, based on that particular individual's specific behavior, etc., he should of course investigate further. If, upon further investigation, he believes the driver is in fact impaired, the matter ought to be treated just like any other criminal investigation. In other words, if the cop has legally supportable probable cause to back up a charge, he should then make it and arrest the person. It is up to the courts to determine guilt - not the cop on the street. And just as you are (for the moment) constitutionally entitled to not give verbal evidence, in the form of answers to a cop's questions (other than "I decline to answer") about something you have been charged with by a cop, so also should you protected from having a cop forcibly compel you to provide physical evidence that will then be used against you in court.

    I have no problem with the suspected drunk driver being offered the opportunity to take a Breathalyzer or even a blood test; just as some suspects are offered the opportunity to take a lie detector test.

    But to force him to do so is an obvious assault on the 5th Amendment - and only a few steps away from beating people with rubber hoses to extract confessions.

    Does that mean it'd be harder to get drunk drivers prosecuted? Certainly. But I vastly prefer that to raping our civil liberties.

    So many people have been taken in by the ends justifies the means line of reasoning when it comes to issues such as this. Name the crime, and we could have less of it by making it simpler and more efficient to arrest and successfully convict transgressors. But is it worth it if we're all treated as presumptive criminals to achieve that?

    How about random stop and frisks on the street? (We're actually not too far from that now, as I see it). There's no telling what we might find... .

    Why not a chip of some kind that gives the government immediate access to our computer hard drives? (They probably have this already.) Think of all the no-goodniks that could be ID'd.

    Etc.

  10. #10
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    The person should be cited for driving too slowly and weaving and if appears drunk, he should be cited for that if proper testing is done. I have no problem with the person being held until someone can come with proper equipment to do a blood test. A proper warrant should be issued to hold the suspect. What I do have a problem with is some cop, with little or no training, drawing blood. Having some thug bully with a badge, a gun, a taser and a needle is too much. Cops have way too much power. Roadside blood tests are unconstitutional. Given the penalties for this type of offense (and I'm using an argument that pinhead judges use), the suspect deserves proper due process. I don't give a fucking damn what that crook, over educated pinhead shithead judge says.
    Amen.

    Conservatives ought to be especially alarmed about the erosion of our civil liberties - since without civil liberties, the freedoms they supposedly cherish are gutted like a 300 pound tuna.

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