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Thread: Where was Jesus before?

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Where was Jesus before?

    One thing about Christianity (and most other religions) that's peculiar is the lack of time-sense.

    What I mean is, Jesus only appeared about 2,000 years ago. The Old Testament isn't much older. Yet humans have been around a helluva long time more than that.

    Why would God deprive this multitude - surely, the majority of people who have ever lived - of his "good news"? Wouldn't The One True God (and his religion) have been there from the get-go? And been universal?

    Instead, he shows up (so it's claimed by some) relatively recently in human affairs - and only in one small corner of the world, where he makes himself known only to one small group of people - who claim to be "specially chosen" in contrast to the rest of the human cattle.

    I think it makes for a fine Star Trek episode.

    But it doesn't make much sense to me . . .

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    Eric;
    You'll have mud in your eye when the Maker appears again. We just don't know when. Remember God appears in mysterious ways. I'm going to play my cards right because heaven is where I want to go. Maybe a good long talk with the Preacher will do you good. Eric find a Preacher in your area and let him clear the air about God,Jesus,mankind and our destiny. All I remember in my parochial upbringing is God appears in mysterious ways. Maybe we are turning a blind eye to God and should simply open up our eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    What I mean is, Jesus only appeared about 2,000 years ago. The Old Testament isn't much older. Yet humans have been around a helluva long time more than that.
    Jesus had gigs on other planets / solar systems / galaxies. Sorta like Santa.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dBrong View Post
    Jesus had gigs on other planets / solar systems / galaxies. Sorta like Santa.
    That's essentially what the Mormons believe. Jesus is a kind of superman and humans (human men) can become god-like supermen also, each with their very own world to rule, along with a harem of wives!

    See this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Eric;
    You'll have mud in your eye when the Maker appears again. We just don't know when. Remember God appears in mysterious ways. I'm going to play my cards right because heaven is where I want to go. Maybe a good long talk with the Preacher will do you good. Eric find a Preacher in your area and let him clear the air about God,Jesus,mankind and our destiny. All I remember in my parochial upbringing is God appears in mysterious ways. Maybe we are turning a blind eye to God and should simply open up our eyes.
    I feel awe when I look at the night sky - or contemplate nature. That is a form of spiritual outlook, I suppose. But it is a big jump (like, a jump across the Grand Canyon) to go from "wow, isn't nature/existence amazing" to Christianity is true... .

    To me, it seems a simple enough and straightforward enough basic question: Why would The One True God only make himself (and his alleged plan for salvation) known in relatively recent times (allowing humans to live and die for thousands of years in ignorance of him and not "saved") and only to a small handful of humanity (the Jews) in one small corner of the globe?

    This doesn't even touch on the matter of the basic theology itself, which is a whole 'nother problem!

    It strikes me as amazingly dismissive of the vast sweep of time, and also of the untold legions of people who have lived in other times and in other parts of the world. And, therefore, very much in keeping with the dogmas of other tribal cults.

    The Christian God, like the gods of the Greek pantheon, pagan Europe and of ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica is all too human to be plausible.

    He's a God who needs rest and likes the smell of burnt offerings; a God who produces a flawed creation and gets angry with it; a God who has his "chosen" people, toward whom he expresses partiality (and often brutality toward people who are not "chosen")... a God who fathers children - and so on.

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    It strikes me as amazingly dismissive of the vast sweep of time, and also of the untold legions of people who have lived in other times and in other parts of the world. And, therefore, very much in keeping with the dogmas of other tribal cults.

    The Christian God, like the gods of the Greek pantheon, pagan Europe and of ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica is all too human to be plausible.

    He's a God who needs rest and likes the smell of burnt offerings; a God who produces a flawed creation and gets angry with it; a God who has his "chosen" people, toward whom he expresses partiality (and often brutality toward people who are not "chosen")... a God who fathers children - and so on. __________________

    Eric;
    I have to admit you have me thinking about everything more and more. My biggest question is why is there so many different ones? I mean Hindu's have one,Moslems,Us Christians and so and so forth. It would make it simpler if there was just one. Geez at work I sometimes work with these religious Hindu's that act high and mighty you know dot heads but are complete assholes when I try getting them to do a job correctly. I find myself getting along more and more with moderates but I am not anti atheists. I know your just searching for answers sometimes I wish someone very religious would join our conversations and really open up a dialogue about this heavy topic.
    With me it's like I go to Mass every Sunday,I try being good only because like Lemmy Klingster of Motorhead use to sing to be an outlaw you have to give a dam. At my age I'd rather be good and not screw around anymore not like my younger days. I do it more out of respect I suppose. I wonder about the Bible for instance did Saints write it,how was the Bible or Koran derived? I mean who wrote it and how accurate is it?
    The big thing at church nowadays is abortion,our Pastor wants us to get more involved with protecting the life of an unborn child. I don't march around abortion clinics or anything and between you and me I think that is something very personal that a women should have some say. What if she was raped or incest? I mean this is major trauma. However adoption could be an alternative too. It's all a major headache trying to sort it all out I guess I'm doing pretty good if I can get to work everyday and not harm anybody and maybe even do some good out there. It doesn't always work that way. I think I break even but other then that I don't believe in guns and I guess I'm a moderate just somebody who will follow common sense and not get too extreme one way or the other.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    "My biggest question is why is there so many different ones? I mean Hindu's have one,Moslems,Us Christians and so and so forth. It would make it simpler if there was just one. "

    I agree completely. It's one of the reasons I became a skeptic early in life. It just doesn't make sense that the "one" God would only be known (or make himself known to) just a segment of humanity, at an arbitrary time, in just one part of the world - and at the same time claim to be the universal creator and savior of all Mankind.

    It seems more logical to me that people around in the world, grappling with the tough questions, "Why are we here?" What happens when we die?" elaborated their own explanations and reasons - filtered through their respective cultures and histories - leading to the world's various religions. The religions become part of the background noise of each culture, accepted as "the way things are" by most people, in the same way that most people in any given society accept the history they're taught as the only history and not one that is always skewed to reflect the biases of the dominant group.


    "I know your just searching for answers sometimes I wish someone very religious would join our conversations and really open up a dialogue about this heavy topic. "

    I find the subject fascinating. Skeptic are in the minority and it has therefore always been a source of wonder to me how so many people can deeply believe that which, to me, seems shot full of holes.


    "I wonder about the Bible for instance did Saints write it,how was the Bible or Koran derived? I mean who wrote it and how accurate is it?"

    Another huge issue. There's no question the Bible was written by men - and years after the events described (so not first-person). Also, the current Bible's contents were selected from a much larger body of work at the Council of Nicea. What about those other books of the Bible?

    " The big thing at church nowadays is abortion,our Pastor wants us to get more involved with protecting the life of an unborn child. I don't march around abortion clinics or anything and between you and me I think that is something very personal that a women should have some say. What if she was raped or incest? I mean this is major trauma. However adoption could be an alternative too. It's all a major headache trying to sort it all out I guess I'm doing pretty good if I can get to work everyday and not harm anybody and maybe even do some good out there."

    Abortion is, indeed, a very tough question. As a matter of biology and logic I think it's hard to argue life doesn't begin at conception. But I personally am ok with terminating a pregnancy if it is done within a few weeks (at most) of conception, before there is either a heartbeat or (in particular) a brain/nervous system. I know this is somewhat arbitrary but it's a standard I'm comfortable with. I do oppose late-term abortions unless it's a case of the mother's life being in jeopardy or severe fetal abnormality, etc.

    Rape and incest: Even tougher. Ideally, the victim would be given the "morning after" pill or equivalent as soon as possible after her attack. But there are cases where that's not possible and by the time the pregnancy is discovered many weeks or even months have gone by. Both parties - the woman and the child conceived as a result of the attack - are victims. Whose rights are the greater? Or are they equal?


    " I don't believe in guns..."

    In what way? Do you just prefer not to handle them yourself? (I'm ok with that.) Or, do you oppose the right of others who wish to possess guns for self-defense, sport shooting, hunting, etc? Just curious...



    "... and I guess I'm a moderate just somebody who will follow common sense and not get too extreme one way or the other."

    I try to the same!

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    " I don't believe in guns..."

    In what way? Do you just prefer not to handle them yourself? (I'm ok with that.) Or, do you oppose the right of others who wish to possess guns for self-defense, sport shooting, hunting, etc? Just curious...

    Well I mean for myself personally. However a majority of my friends own guns for the rifle range,hunting and I believe some carry them secretly on their person I don't want to know. If a man lives in the wilderness of Alaska absolutely does he need a gun for food and protection. Hunting bambi a guy I greatly admire who owns his own company takes his young son hunting and the kid bagged his first buck. That sounds like fun,I never got into hunting but this is in my opinon and excellent spot and even an necessity.
    I guess what I'm saying is I don't want a gun in my home for protection. Some of the guys I know that have guns in there homes seem well hate to say it less manly. They are only as tough as their gun. I don't want to ever hide behind a gun. Anyway there are people that can handle guns and it's their hobby and it's their freedom. It's just not for me.

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    Eric;
    Being a believer of God does not make me more righteous,stronger morally or more accepted. I don't want to hide behind my religion and remotely think that I'm in a better position then someone else. I think if Christians,Muslims,Hindus,Jews and Atheist would try to accept each other or better yet leave each other alone and try to work on one own faults and not impose our beliefs on others would make this world a better place. I have a moral obligation to my kids even thou they are old they still need my guidance. If my kids turn out to be good regardless of who or what they believe in then I did my job right. This is all that matters to me,everything else is out of my control. Once someone brings a new life into this world that is your responsibility. Heck my son and I work out at the gym and then go for some good Mexican afterwords,life doesn't get much better then that for me. We work out together,talk and have a good meal,that's better then going to Church at least for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Eric;
    Being a believer of God does not make me more righteous,stronger morally or more accepted. I don't want to hide behind my religion and remotely think that I'm in a better position then someone else. I think if Christians,Muslims,Hindus,Jews and Atheist would try to accept each other or better yet leave each other alone and try to work on one own faults and not impose our beliefs on others would make this world a better place. I have a moral obligation to my kids even thou they are old they still need my guidance. If my kids turn out to be good regardless of who or what they believe in then I did my job right. This is all that matters to me,everything else is out of my control. Once someone brings a new life into this world that is your responsibility. Heck my son and I work out at the gym and then go for some good Mexican afterwords,life doesn't get much better then that for me. We work out together,talk and have a good meal,that's better then going to Church at least for me.
    Adam my friend, you are getting there. Your ideas on what makes a good person are right on the nail. Religion does not make one 'good' although the ideology may lead one in the right direction. What makes a good person is their behaviour and interaction with their neighbours and society in general. As I have said before - many people say they are Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc, purely because that is how they were brought up. To truly believe you have to question every tenet of your professed faith and determine whether or not it satisfies your sense of logic. If it does then you are, rightly or wrongly, a true believer and no-one can denigrate you for that. If it does not satisfy your sense of logic then you can no longer believe and still be true to yourself.

    Ken.
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  11. #11
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    " I don't believe in guns..."

    In what way? Do you just prefer not to handle them yourself? (I'm ok with that.) Or, do you oppose the right of others who wish to possess guns for self-defense, sport shooting, hunting, etc? Just curious...

    Well I mean for myself personally. However a majority of my friends own guns for the rifle range,hunting and I believe some carry them secretly on their person I don't want to know. If a man lives in the wilderness of Alaska absolutely does he need a gun for food and protection. Hunting bambi a guy I greatly admire who owns his own company takes his young son hunting and the kid bagged his first buck. That sounds like fun,I never got into hunting but this is in my opinon and excellent spot and even an necessity.
    I guess what I'm saying is I don't want a gun in my home for protection. Some of the guys I know that have guns in there homes seem well hate to say it less manly. They are only as tough as their gun. I don't want to ever hide behind a gun. Anyway there are people that can handle guns and it's their hobby and it's their freedom. It's just not for me.
    I think we're on the same page.

    I strongly support the right to self-defense so naturally I support gun rights. Guns are the great equalizer. A woman, for example, can successfully defend herself against a large male - if she's armed. If not, she's helpless. And even a strong man is out of luck against an assailant who is armed (unless he is a well-trained fighter and is also very lucky).

    But I also believe strongly that with that right comes responsibility. I support the idea of extreme punishment for the misuse of firearms, especially criminal misuse. If it were up to me, any person who is even in possession of a firearm during an act of criminal violence such as robbery or assault (even if the gun is never used or displayed) would be subject to a mandatory minimum 20 years in prison - in addition to whatever punishment would come into play for the robbery, assault or whatever.

    Such a policy would end the problem of "gun crime" overnight.

    Most people who carry firearms (especially those with concealed carry permits) are among the most responsible and least likely to be involved in criminal violence people you'll ever meet. They are not the problem.

    The problem we have is a relative handful of violent repeat offenders who continue to get turned loose and recycled through the system. Often, they have to commit several violent crimes before they're put away for any length of time.

    My attitude is there's no excuse - ever - for gratuitous (unprovoked) violence. Those who do cross that line should be put away for a long, long time - the first time.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Eric;
    Being a believer of God does not make me more righteous,stronger morally or more accepted. I don't want to hide behind my religion and remotely think that I'm in a better position then someone else. I think if Christians,Muslims,Hindus,Jews and Atheist would try to accept each other or better yet leave each other alone and try to work on one own faults and not impose our beliefs on others would make this world a better place. I have a moral obligation to my kids even thou they are old they still need my guidance. If my kids turn out to be good regardless of who or what they believe in then I did my job right. This is all that matters to me,everything else is out of my control. Once someone brings a new life into this world that is your responsibility. Heck my son and I work out at the gym and then go for some good Mexican afterwords,life doesn't get much better then that for me. We work out together,talk and have a good meal,that's better then going to Church at least for me.

    That's pretty much my policy also.

    I think it's important to be decent, civil and fair - irrespective of religious belief (or its lack). Good people can be found among the religious and non-religious, just as bad people can be found among both camps, too.

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    Adam my friend, you are getting there. Your ideas on what makes a good person are right on the nail. Religion does not make one 'good' although the ideology may lead one in the right direction. What makes a good person is their behaviour and interaction with their neighbours and society in general. As I have said before - many people say they are Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc, purely because that is how they were brought up. To truly believe you have to question every tenet of your professed faith and determine whether or not it satisfies your sense of logic. If it does then you are, rightly or wrongly, a true believer and no-one can denigrate you for that. If it does not satisfy your sense of logic then you can no longer believe and still be true to yourself.

    Ken. __________________

    Well said as usual Ken. You know sometimes I hope there is a heaven and hell. I'd like to see the good people end up in heaven and all the chiseler,weasels,murder and thugs in hell or somewhere were they can think of all the misery they caused. I don't know Ken life is a battle but the older I get the more I try to make it less complicated. I still go to Church every Sunday but I am not a zombie and I will never think that whoever goes to church is better then someone who doesn't because it's what somebody does when not in church that really matters.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Adam my friend, you are getting there. Your ideas on what makes a good person are right on the nail. Religion does not make one 'good' although the ideology may lead one in the right direction. What makes a good person is their behaviour and interaction with their neighbours and society in general. As I have said before - many people say they are Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Buddhist, etc, purely because that is how they were brought up. To truly believe you have to question every tenet of your professed faith and determine whether or not it satisfies your sense of logic. If it does then you are, rightly or wrongly, a true believer and no-one can denigrate you for that. If it does not satisfy your sense of logic then you can no longer believe and still be true to yourself.

    Ken. __________________

    Well said as usual Ken. You know sometimes I hope there is a heaven and hell. I'd like to see the good people end up in heaven and all the chiseler,weasels,murder and thugs in hell or somewhere were they can think of all the misery they caused. I don't know Ken life is a battle but the older I get the more I try to make it less complicated. I still go to Church every Sunday but I am not a zombie and I will never think that whoever goes to church is better then someone who doesn't because it's what somebody does when not in church that really matters.
    The notion of a benevolent God, of life continuing after death, etc., - all nice. I just see no evidence for either and so am doubtful of either being more than humanity's wishful thinking...

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