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Thread: Chevy slipped this into the 2011 lineup?

  1. #1
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    Chevy slipped this into the 2011 lineup?

    Chevrolet slipped one past nearly everybody I know and is green-lighting the 2011 Z-28? The last I heard the division had deep-sixed the idea and had disbanded the team doing final vendor checks prior to assembly of the first run units (that was after Obama personally fired that insubordinate Rick Waggoner at the end of February 2009).

    Apparently it has a 575 HP Cadillac-derived V8. Prototypes have been seen on the street in the Detroit area. I got that G2 from recently-retired former stylist and GM historian Brian Baker Monday evening.

    I haven't seen any note of this in the car magazines I get, most of which are admittedly biased towards Pontiac but at least one of which is pretty non-denominational (Car & Driver).

    Have I just been asleep at the wheel of my old Pontiac?

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    Given that they seem to be selling all the Camaros they care to build, I find the assertion credible.

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Chevrolet slipped one past nearly everybody I know and is green-lighting the 2011 Z-28? The last I heard the division had deep-sixed the idea and had disbanded the team doing final vendor checks prior to assembly of the first run units (that was after Obama personally fired that insubordinate Rick Waggoner at the end of February 2009).

    Apparently it has a 575 HP Cadillac-derived V8. Prototypes have been seen on the street in the Detroit area. I got that G2 from recently-retired former stylist and GM historian Brian Baker Monday evening.

    I haven't seen any note of this in the car magazines I get, most of which are admittedly biased towards Pontiac but at least one of which is pretty non-denominational (Car & Driver).

    Have I just been asleep at the wheel of my old Pontiac?
    There are definitely pre-production examples running around but so far no official resurrection of the program.

    I think they could do it as a limited run and probably avoid CAFE issues - which is the real nut for them as far as offering the Z as a regular production option is concerned.

  4. #4
    one of which is pretty non-denominational (Car & Driver)
    C/D non denominational? I guess for every brand but BMW....especially their precious 3-Series....

    A Z28 would be awesome though...

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieseleverything View Post
    C/D non denominational? I guess for every brand but BMW....especially their precious 3-Series....

    A Z28 would be awesome though...
    Even more awesome would be a return to the spirit of the original '67-'69 Z-28, by which I mean a no-nonsense, high-performance road-racer with no automatic transmission option and minimal options, except as they enhance performance. AC delete, radio delete; no power windows or locks. And a sticker price under $28,000.

    Now that would be the ticket!

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    From what I picked up, the Z-28 "option" will be about $8,000. I'm assuming that's over the price of the 2SS model, but I'm not certain about that.

    It's pretty interesting that this hasn't gotten any real press exposure. Frankly, I'm surprised that the ideologues put in power after the government took over the company are allowing it. Perhaps that explains the lack of any publicity.

    We're all supposed to be worried poopless over our carbon footprint, you know...

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    From what I picked up, the Z-28 "option" will be about $8,000. I'm assuming that's over the price of the 2SS model, but I'm not certain about that.

    It's pretty interesting that this hasn't gotten any real press exposure. Frankly, I'm surprised that the ideologues put in power after the government took over the company are allowing it. Perhaps that explains the lack of any publicity.

    We're all supposed to be worried poopless over our carbon footprint, you know...
    Yeah - which puts it around $40k (before the inevitable dealer gouging) - which puts it out of reach of most anyone who isn't pretty well-heeled.

    I see no reason why the Z has to be so expensive.

    Wouldn't it be great if Chevy let you buy the performance equipment that comprises the heart of the Z28 (and SS) package, but skip the price-padding luxury and convenience features that push the cost of these cars to the point that (mostly) only middle-aged guys reliving their youths can even think about buying one?

    The government requires air bags, but only two. GM could leave off the door side-impact bags as a "delete option."

    Ditto AC and stereo.

    Manual roll-up windows.

    No automatic transmission (just for the 'tude!)

    Surely such a Camaro could be built and sold at a decent profit for less than $30k....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I see no reason why the Z has to be so expensive.
    To be honest, neither do I in a straight-up free market situation. But I have my suspicions that the sales price isn't determined by the cost of the add-ins or even by the nominal market demand for the cars.

    I'm betting that the CAFE average thing is nosing in here, and that's driving a goodly part of the sticker prices.

    You see, if the auto makers don't hit the target CAFE numbers for a particular model year, they are hit with penalties that are essentially extra taxes. Think "luxury tax" that gets passed on to the buyers. What I'm thinking is that they have a good idea of how many Camaros they will sell and they are building the cost of that penalty into the selling price. The high-end, lower mileage version (Z-28) will impact their CAFE average the most and thus will have the largest price penalty attached to it.

    That's the only reason I can think of for the price escalation on other vehicles. I bought my 2002 Avalanche for something around $32,000, but when I priced out a 2009 Avalanche that was equipped the same way it came out to $52,000. There's no way that we've had that much inflation since 2001. I credit the swing to larger vehicles and its impact on the CAFE average, with the corresponding pricing increases. And of course, once you've pointed out HOW to increase prices like that and gotten away with it, there's a certain amount of self-interest on the part of the makers.

  9. #9
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    To be honest, neither do I in a straight-up free market situation. But I have my suspicions that the sales price isn't determined by the cost of the add-ins or even by the nominal market demand for the cars.

    I'm betting that the CAFE average thing is nosing in here, and that's driving a goodly part of the sticker prices.

    You see, if the auto makers don't hit the target CAFE numbers for a particular model year, they are hit with penalties that are essentially extra taxes. Think "luxury tax" that gets passed on to the buyers. What I'm thinking is that they have a good idea of how many Camaros they will sell and they are building the cost of that penalty into the selling price. The high-end, lower mileage version (Z-28) will impact their CAFE average the most and thus will have the largest price penalty attached to it.

    That's the only reason I can think of for the price escalation on other vehicles. I bought my 2002 Avalanche for something around $32,000, but when I priced out a 2009 Avalanche that was equipped the same way it came out to $52,000. There's no way that we've had that much inflation since 2001. I credit the swing to larger vehicles and its impact on the CAFE average, with the corresponding pricing increases. And of course, once you've pointed out HOW to increase prices like that and gotten away with it, there's a certain amount of self-interest on the part of the makers.
    I think you're on to something here...

    No doubt GM has legions of accountants running the numbers and this may, indeed, be the only way the Z makes economic sense (for GM).

    That said, it's also true that the Z is "heavily contented." Things like AC and most power equipment, an upmarket stereo rig, premium interior upholstery - as well as above-and-beyond "safety" stuff that's not mandatory, like driver and passenger side-impact/head and curtain air bags, traction control, etc. - add significantly to the bottom-line price.

    Just as an exercise in what if:

    Imagine that you could skip all the stuff above - if you wanted - and buy just the high-performance equipment in a more or less Plain Brown Wrapper Camaro.

    That would make the car a lot more affordable - and lot more accessible to the under-35 crowd that is this car's natural and proper audience.

    It would also be smart business.

    GM could do some real damage to a market that's currently import-heavy and dominated by cars like the Soobie WRX and Mitsubishi EVO (to say nothing of giving Ford a real kick in the gnads).

    Camaro - including Z28 - used to be a middle class car; even a working class car. But a $40,000 Z28 (plus taxes/insurance) is getting to be a rich man's toy - or an older man's mid-life crisis mobile.

    And to me, that's a sad thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Camaro - including Z28 - used to be a middle class car; even a working class car. But a $40,000 Z28 (plus taxes/insurance) is getting to be a rich man's toy - or an older man's mid-life crisis mobile.

    And to me, that's a sad thing.
    Beyond that, it positions performance automobiles as political targets. If such vehicles become only the plaything of the rich, then it sets them up to be demonized by those automotive luddites who oppose any motorized vehicle that doesn't have 66 seats and bi-fold doors on it. It's just one stepping stone further down the path of getting rid of ALL cars and forcing everyone onto either bicycles or electric trains. To people who think that way an affordable FUN performance car that is available to the masses is anathema.

    If you think that stategy doesn't work, examine the tactics of the holophobics in action. The principles delineated by Saul Alinsky are effective. Making the performance content of the new Z-28 available only in a high-end package only plays into the hands of the environmentalists pushing an agenda.

  11. #11
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Beyond that, it positions performance automobiles as political targets. If such vehicles become only the plaything of the rich, then it sets them up to be demonized by those automotive luddites who oppose any motorized vehicle that doesn't have 66 seats and bi-fold doors on it. It's just one stepping stone further down the path of getting rid of ALL cars and forcing everyone onto either bicycles or electric trains. To people who think that way an affordable FUN performance car that is available to the masses is anathema.

    If you think that stategy doesn't work, examine the tactics of the holophobics in action. The principles delineated by Saul Alinsky are effective. Making the performance content of the new Z-28 available only in a high-end package only plays into the hands of the environmentalists pushing an agenda.

    Absolutely.

    In addition it fosters class antagonisms (the Alinsky types appreciate this). The average middle-income/working class guy comes to resent "the rich guy" in his Z28. Thus, the middle/working class not only don't have a stake in the survival of cars like the Z28, some will actually be suckered into supporting attacks on the car out of sheer envy and hate.

    But hopefully, at least a few will see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    It's a lot like it was back in 1979, when it was clear that big-engined (and Pontiac-powered) TAs were on the Endangered Species List.

    Get one while you can, if you can...

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