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Thread: How often have you been shiny side down?

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    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    How often have you been shiny side down?

    A recent poll in Superbike magazine asked the question, “How many times have you crashed/been knocked off in the past three years?”

    The results of the poll, at the time I saw them (which may or may not have been the final figures) surprised me more than a little. They were as follows.

    Never – 41 percent.
    Once – 16 percent.
    Twice – 5 percent.
    Three times – 2 percent.
    Four times – 0 percent.
    More than four times – 1 percent.
    More than 10 times – 36 percent.

    For a start, I was very surprised to see a figure as low as 41 percent for those who had not had an incident. I would have expected this figure to be far higher; around 90 – 95 percent would have been my guess. The last figure – 36 percent for those who have crashed or been knocked off more than ten times beggars all belief unless they are all getting rear ended riding in the rush hours in major cities. In the club I belong to there have been four accidents I am aware of (one fatal) in the last five years or so. With an average of around 300 members, if my math is correct, that works out at an accident rate of around 0.3 percent over the five year period.

    Over my 60 year motorcycling career (excluding the times I came off trying out speedway riding) I recollect coming off my Triumph T110 twice. First time was when the center stand return spring broke and the stand swung forward as I braked and snagged the tarmac as I went into a left hander. The second time was cornering on snow and ice. I dropped my Sunbeam B23S once bump starting it and came off once on ice. (Memo to self: Always pull bike back against compression before bump starting.)
    I had a major crash with a Sunbeam S8 combination when a car, running the lights, hit me as I was turning off a main road. I dropped my Douglas 90 Plus once, at slow speed, cornering on snow and ice. I also dropped my Suzuki GSX600, at a standstill, when stopping in a narrow lane and putting my left foot down into a grass covered hole. Only the S8 incident involved another vehicle. I’ve probably now covered getting on for 400,000 miles on bikes, giving me an average of around 6,700 m/yr. At a rough estimation this gives me an accident rate of 1 per 57,000 miles or 8.5 years. If we exclude the bump start incident and snow and ice events – in those days the bike was a 365 days a year transport – the rate drops to 1 per 100,000 miles or 15 years. (Curiously this is roughly the same accident rate as in the car, except that all car incidents did involve other vehicles and all bar two, for which I admitted liability, resulted in successful claims against the other driver’s insurance.)

    Wondering why my personal experience differed so much from the results of the poll I looked up some of our government (UK) statistics to see what the main causes of two wheeled accidents were. Figures for 2008, 2009 and 2010 are not yet available as far as I can see. The 2007 figures were published, were available and are probably still reasonably representative.

    1. “Failing to look properly” accounted for 15 percent of accidents;
    2. “Loss of control” was a factor in 14 percent of accidents;
    3. “Failed to judge other person’s path or speed” was a factor in 11 percent of accidents;
    4. “Careless, reckless or in a hurry” accounted for 11 percent of accidents;
    5. “Poor turn or manoeuvre” was a factor in 10 percent of accidents;
    6. “Learner or inexperienced driver” was a factor in 9 percent of accidents;
    7. “Traveling too fast for the conditions” was a factor in 8 percent of accidents;
    8. “Slippery road due to weather conditions” was a factor in 6 percent of accidents;
    9. “Sudden braking” was a factor in 5 percent of accidents;
    10. “Following too close” was a factor in 4 percent of accidents;
    11. “Exceeding the speed limit” was a factor in only 4 percent of accidents;
    12. “Unaccounted” accounts for 3 percent as a result of rounding up/down of the above figures.

    Total number of motorcycling accidents reviewed was 20,249.

    My immediate reaction, which may or may not be correct, is that the riders who admitted being involved in ten or more incidents in the last three years were either having a joke or fell into the top five categories above. The majority of the riders I have seen riding badly here in Lincolnshire fall mainly into Group 4 – careless, reckless or in a hurry. Often I have seen riders, at high speed, overtaking long lines of traffic, up blind crested hills, or into blind bends apparently oblivious to the fact that someone may be coming towards them, at the same speed, in the opposite direction. Since they cannot see that the route they are taking is clear then they must also fall into Group 1, failing to look properly.

    Hang about though. Doesn’t that also mean that they also fall into Group 3 (failure to judge another’s path or speed)? If they cannot stop in half the distance they can see ahead and they are on the wrong side of the road, then, unless they can pull into a gap or brake themselves out of trouble they will hit anything coming towards them at their speed. If so then they must also fall into Group 7 as well (traveling Too Fast for the conditions) and, possibly, Group 9 (the sudden braking group).

    My analysis may be a bit hazy, but it does reinforce one of my long held tenets. I have always believed that an accident (is there such a thing?) is caused by a combination of events. I believe most arise through someone making an error, or several errors, of judgment. These errors are often coupled with someone else either not being sufficiently alert to see what is happening, or being unsighted and not being able to see what was happening – with both cases resulting in them not taking an appropriate preventive action.

    That little poll in Superbike magazine certainly caused me to think about the way we ride. I still don’t know the real answer as to why my experience differs so much from the poll, but I think it has made me think more deeply about the things that cause “accidents.” I will continue to ride by my golden rule: Ride to Survive. hopefully you will do the same.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Piney's Avatar
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    Don't know if those numbers surprise me or not...I've always heard that there are 2 types of bikers - those who have been down and those who are going to go down.

  3. #3
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piney View Post
    Don't know if those numbers surprise me or not...I've always heard that there are 2 types of bikers - those who have been down and those who are going to go down.
    I happened to witness a bad one about two years ago.

    I was in my Trans-Am, heading back home, waiting behind a Jeep Cherokee at a stop sign to make a left turn onto the "main drag." I casually took notice of a big touring bike with two up coming from my left headed south down the main drag. Then I realized the driver of the Jeep in front of me (at this point I noticed it was a very old lady) did not see the bike coming and was on the verge of pulling into the road. A split second later, she did just that - slamming into the bike and sending both riders literally flying into the air.

    I put on my flashers and got out. The man was hurt petty badly, with an obviously broken bone in his upper right leg; his wife was screaming horribly. The bike was trashed.

    Luckily, this happened right in the center of town and the fire/rescue station was literally three blocks away, so EMS was there almost immediately.

    The old lady was freaking out; she just didn't see them.

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    Been down 3 times in 29 years of riding. First time was into the back of my freinds bike when he stopped abruptly at the end of a corner and I was trying to catch up. Got a scar on my chin from that one.
    2nd time I was comeing down a road and there was a car just sitting there in my travel lane with no turn signals or flashers on. I decided to swing around him to the left and that was when he decided to hang a left turn. Got a broken ankle when I knew I was going to hit and jumped. Everything cleared his car but my right foot.
    Third time was a low speed drop in some mud at a campground a couple years ago. Pretty much just laughed about that one...

  5. #5
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosts08ultra View Post
    Been down 3 times in 29 years of riding. First time was into the back of my freinds bike when he stopped abruptly at the end of a corner and I was trying to catch up. Got a scar on my chin from that one.
    2nd time I was comeing down a road and there was a car just sitting there in my travel lane with no turn signals or flashers on. I decided to swing around him to the left and that was when he decided to hang a left turn. Got a broken ankle when I knew I was going to hit and jumped. Everything cleared his car but my right foot.
    Third time was a low speed drop in some mud at a campground a couple years ago. Pretty much just laughed about that one...
    My Most Embarrassing Spill was at a bank drive-thru; I forgot about the oil slick that's almost always present anywhere multitudes of cars stop and idle.... and had ridden right up onto it. When I put my left leg down to stabilize the bike while I reached into my jacket to get my wallet, my foot slid out from under me and the bike went over - me with with it. I felt like a compleat idiot. No real harm done (broke a turn signal), other than to my pride!

  6. #6
    Senior Member Piney's Avatar
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    Wow...I'm a bona fide 2%-er!! (Been down 3 times)

    Ken, one thing I didn't glean from your article, or the statistics presented in the 2007 figures, was - (for example) #9: Sudden Braking - is that sudden braking by the biker or by the shithead who cut within a hairs width in front of the biker (at ~65mph) who, for reasons known only to himself, decides to suddenly lock up his brakes, thereby forcing the biker to take evasive maneuvers which (unfortunately for me) result in the bike & rider going down?

    Also didn't see Sudden & Unexpected Impact with Wildlife. (Maybe it's not a problem in the UK? LOL)

    And, like Mark, I had a very low speed OOPS!! when a group of about 9 of us were being directed to a parking area the property owner (Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome - great place in New York's Hudson Valley to visit, by the way) sort of set aside for us. It was a grass covered patch of "overflow" parking with a rather steep incline leading to a flat plateau. The incline was just barely wide enough for one 4-wheeled vehicle to be on at a time. We were lined up on the right side...I was waiting at the bottom for the bike ahead of me to clear the flat so that I wouldn't have to stop on the incline. He started forward and so did I...then he stopped. Well, so did I ...unfortunately there was no place to put my right foot and over we went! (Totally my fault as I look back on it) When I asked my buddy why he stopped for no apparent reason he said something like "I needed to set my radio"...or something along those lines. I thought (to myself) Why? We're parking...do that when you get off the bike!

  7. #7
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piney View Post
    Wow...I'm a bona fide 2%-er!! (Been down 3 times)

    Ken, one thing I didn't glean from your article, or the statistics presented in the 2007 figures, was - (for example) #9: Sudden Braking - is that sudden braking by the biker or by the shithead who cut within a hairs width in front of the biker (at ~65mph) who, for reasons known only to himself, decides to suddenly lock up his brakes, thereby forcing the biker to take evasive maneuvers which (unfortunately for me) result in the bike & rider going down?

    Also didn't see Sudden & Unexpected Impact with Wildlife. (Maybe it's not a problem in the UK? LOL)
    From the way the facts were presented, Rich, I assumed that the 'Sudden Braking' was carried out by the rider - for whatever reason. Could have been following to close to another vehicle for the speed he was at, or vehicle cutting in as you suggested. Maybe someone/something appeared in front of him, jaywalker, wildlife, diesel spill, etc.

    Wildlife collisions were not mentioned. Over here our main roadkills are rabbits, badgers, pheasants, pigeons, deer (ouch!) and the odd cow. I've never hit anything on a bike but have had to swerve round a few rabbits and pheasants and did come across a herd of deer, in thick fog, on my way back from the club one night.

    Ken.
    Last edited by Ken; 09-10-2010 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Typo.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  8. #8
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    From the way the facts were presented I assumed that the 'Sudden Braking' was carried out by the rider - for whatever reason. Could have been following to close to another vehicle for the speed he was at, or vehicle cutting in as you suggested. Maybe someone/something appeared in front of him, jaywalker, wildlife, diesel spill, etc.

    Wildlife collisions were not mentioned. Over here our main roadkills are rabbits, badgers, pheasants, pigeons, deer (ouch!) and the odd cow. I've never hit anything on a bike but have had to swerve round a few rabbits and pheasants and did come across a herd of deer, in thick fog, on my way back from the club one night.

    Ken.
    Deer impacts are a big problem in my area. A guy I know was riding in a group of five. Number 3 rider got T-boned by a deer leaping from out of the woods and splat - right into him. Some of these beasts weigh 200 pounds; typical is 140-150 pounds for an adult... and they can run fast.

  9. #9
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    I make it a point to ride paranoid. I just KNOW that driver is going to look right through me and pull out. I know the van driver isn't going to check his mirrors. I know that woman driving, chatting on the cell phone, eating and putting on lipstick isn't going to see me stopped at a red light. I'm quite often proved wrong but I prefer to keep riding, not pushing my wheel chair.


    I've been down probably 4 or 5 times. Always a low speed drop. I can never get it out of my head that the wheels will keep hold of the pavement going around a curve. I expect them to break loose. Riders in the Concours Owners Group (COG) call their bikes "Connies". On the COG mailing list, you can apply for a CDA number if you tell every body how you dropped your bike. My CDA number is 90.

    I managed to drop my bike in my own yard. It was the day after Christmas and we had a spattering of snow on the ground but mostly damp dirt. (Mud.) I had on a brand new pair of gloves that I had just bought a few days before. I didn't feel like moving my pickup so I rode around the truck into the yard. As I rode back up to the driveway, I felt the rear wheel start to come around. That's when I knew I messed up. It slowly came around and kept going over. I rolled off the bike and when I sat up, I noticed all the neighborhood kids standing across the street watch me go down. I even heard one of them go "Cool! Just like on TV! Can you do it again?". I also split my new gloves open. Then again, the $65 pair of gloves saved me from $65 worth of stitches. The bike wasn't hurt but the kids waved at me for many months after that.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    A recent poll in Superbike magazine asked the question, “How many times have you crashed/been knocked off in the past three years?”
    Ken.
    At least a half dozen times in my 45 years of riding. Various reasons from being stupid to riding into the sun, being blinded by it, riding on top of quarts of spilled oil that I couldn't see. Also crossing street car tracks in San Francisco and stuff like that.

    Also once when my rear brake didn't work. Left here on a cold foggy day. Rode 40 miles south where it was very hot (40 miles from the fog here). Then perhaps the air bubbles in the rear brake line got a lot larger. I tried to slow down on on a freeway exit and with the lack of rear brake and the deceleration mist on the exit, a front wheel skid. From that, I learned to bleed my brakes every year if they feel good or not. That accident (about 25 years ago) broke my left arm.

    -Don-

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom View Post
    At least a half dozen times in my 45 years of riding. Various reasons from being stupid to riding into the sun, being blinded by it, riding on top of quarts of spilled oil that I couldn't see. Also crossing street car tracks in San Francisco and stuff like that.

    Also once when my rear brake didn't work. Left here on a cold foggy day. Rode 40 miles south where it was very hot (40 miles from the fog here). Then perhaps the air bubbles in the rear brake line got a lot larger. I tried to slow down on on a freeway exit and with the lack of rear brake and the deceleration mist on the exit, a front wheel skid. From that, I learned to bleed my brakes every year if they feel good or not. That accident (about 25 years ago) broke my left arm.

    -Don-
    That's the one I think a lot of have learned about the hard way!

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    Lets see, I think I've been down 5 times in my life. Most memorable were the first and the last. My first was on Biscayne Blvd in Miami. A light rain had just started and I was rounding a bend as the rear wheel came out from under me. Fortunatly the road was so slick that I just laid back and road it out, sliding on my butt... didn't even tear my jeans. My last was in the front yard during Biketoberfest, broke my right leg. Stupid me, stopped going out to the road and the crown of the road along with the slope of the driveway put my foot about 1 foot above where it needed to be.

    As a member of the Daytona Drill Team, I've had many crashes with other bikes. Never been down though (knock, knock). I've got 3 front fenders in my attic and I can't tell you how many "crash" bars and lower's I've replaced. One of my favorites was my partner and I were making gentle right hand turns and were supposed to pass on the left. Well, we were both looking to the left checking allignment with the other bikes when we hit front tires head on. We bounced backward, put our feet down and looked up as we started laughing.

  13. #13
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieCLU View Post

    My last was in the front yard during Biketoberfest, broke my right leg. Stupid me, stopped going out to the road and the crown of the road along with the slope of the driveway put my foot about 1 foot above where it needed to be.
    I know that hollow 'WTF' feeling, Charlie. That is similar to what happened to me on the Suzi. On a group, three day, ride we stopped in a country lane for the lead rider to open a cattle gate. The grass verge looked a nice even, and level, green. I put my left foot down into the only hole on that little stretch of green. The sinking feeling as my foot met long grass, not solid earth, will linger for years. Luckily I retained some sort of leverage on the bike and was able to lower it reasonably gently without breaking my leg. The other three guys, when they stopped laughing, were able to get the bike back up again without damage to me and only a cracked mirror housing to the bike - the emergency roll of gaffer tape soon sorted that out.

    Ken.
    Last edited by Ken; 09-11-2010 at 11:14 AM.
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    Senior Member Oldfrtbkr's Avatar
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    In the past three years, never. However before that once that I remember and once I don't. Seems strange however I was on the 100,000 foot Colorado mountain pass ride and with the combination of dehydration and rapid altitude changes I awoke in the middle of Tennessee Pass, on my back with my bike looking like a dead dog about six feet from me. Damage to the bike was cosmetic as I was approaching a turn and was going rather slowly and boom, passed out. I broke a rib when I hit the ground and that was about it.

    Next time I was trying to beat a rainstorm, watched the storm but not the fellow in the SUV in front of be. Again cosmetic damage to the scoot, none to me. Interesting enough I think had I hit a car with a lower bumper I might have just bounced off but the higher bumper on the SUV pretty well mangled my front fender.

  15. #15
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfrtbkr View Post
    In the past three years, never. However before that once that I remember and once I don't. Seems strange however I was on the 100,000 foot Colorado mountain pass ride and with the combination of dehydration and rapid altitude changes I awoke in the middle of Tennessee Pass, on my back with my bike looking like a dead dog about six feet from me. Damage to the bike was cosmetic as I was approaching a turn and was going rather slowly and boom, passed out. I broke a rib when I hit the ground and that was about it.

    Next time I was trying to beat a rainstorm, watched the storm but not the fellow in the SUV in front of be. Again cosmetic damage to the scoot, none to me. Interesting enough I think had I hit a car with a lower bumper I might have just bounced off but the higher bumper on the SUV pretty well mangled my front fender.
    Looking at the replies so far it looks as though we are all solid 41%ers, good, steady, reliable, forward thinking, riders who have the maturity not to take risks (although some of us might calculate the odds when indulging our passion for bursts of high speed). Gentlemen all, I am honoured to be in such responsible company. I look forward to reading Sherry's input when she gets back from her week's ride-out. I take it we are all agreed that 'off-road' spills are par for the course and do not count in this survey.

    Ken.
    Last edited by Ken; 09-11-2010 at 11:40 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfrtbkr View Post
    In the past three years, never. However before that once that I remember and once I don't. Seems strange however I was on the 100,000 foot Colorado mountain pass ride and with the combination of dehydration and rapid altitude changes I awoke in the middle of Tennessee Pass, on my back with my bike looking like a dead dog about six feet from me. Damage to the bike was cosmetic as I was approaching a turn and was going rather slowly and boom, passed out. I broke a rib when I hit the ground and that was about it.

    Next time I was trying to beat a rainstorm, watched the storm but not the fellow in the SUV in front of be. Again cosmetic damage to the scoot, none to me. Interesting enough I think had I hit a car with a lower bumper I might have just bounced off but the higher bumper on the SUV pretty well mangled my front fender.
    Hay JP, you did'nt tell them the best part of that crash on the 100,000 foot run. The water bottle in your jacket that you neglected to drink out of was what broke your rib. LOL talk about irony

  17. #17
    Senior Member Piney's Avatar
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    Ken, something else I didn't see explicitly listed in the 2007 stats is and mention of "Alcohol Related" accidents. I suppose it could be an underlying factor in many of the listed categories.

    What got me to thinking about drink driving is, this morning I could hear a lot of bikes (I'm going to guess Harley guys, from the sound of the bikes) heading home from Roar To The Shore, and I wondered how many might be hung over from last night's partying?

  18. #18
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piney View Post
    Ken, something else I didn't see explicitly listed in the 2007 stats is and mention of "Alcohol Related" accidents. I suppose it could be an underlying factor in many of the listed categories.

    What got me to thinking about drink driving is, this morning I could hear a lot of bikes (I'm going to guess Harley guys, from the sound of the bikes) heading home from Roar To The Shore, and I wondered how many might be hung over from last night's partying?
    One problem with that stat (at least as it's recorded in the US) is that it includes stuff that really has nothing to do with what's implied. For example, a rider (sober) strikes a drunk pedestrian who wandered into the road; it gets listed as an "alcohol-related" incident/death.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Oldfrtbkr's Avatar
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    Hay JP, you did'nt tell them the best part of that crash on the 100,000 foot run. The water bottle in your jacket that you neglected to drink out of was what broke your rib. LOL talk about irony
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  20. #20
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piney View Post
    Ken, something else I didn't see explicitly listed in the 2007 stats is and mention of "Alcohol Related" accidents. I suppose it could be an underlying factor in many of the listed categories.

    What got me to thinking about drink driving is, this morning I could hear a lot of bikes (I'm going to guess Harley guys, from the sound of the bikes) heading home from Roar To The Shore, and I wondered how many might be hung over from last night's partying?
    No, Rich, those particular stats did not mention alcohol. My guess is the same as your's in that an over indulgence in the falling down juice would, inevitably, lead to at least one (if not all) the factors listed.

    Your second point is a very valid one - it is surprising how many people will party like mad the night before then drive the next morning without thinking about the amount of booze still in their bloodstream.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

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