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Thread: Talking with imaginary friends...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I've heard the argument that most people have a "religious gene" that predisposes them to accepting religion. I've always thought that the main reason for widespread religious belief is simply that most people are born into religious families and so are molded to think in religious terms from a very early (and impressionable) age.

    In my own case (and perhaps yours?) my parents were pretty indifferent to religion, so I picked up a skeptical attitude early on. And once you begin to question religion, it's virtually impossible to continue believing in any of it!
    That's not really true. I've gone through phases of doubt, and even a phase when I believed God existed and hated Him! Yet I remain convinced of my faith.

    I remember we were discussing this very thing on the comments section, but it would probably be easier to do it here.

    As I mentioned to you before, you don't seem like a raving anti-theist in general. You seem much more focused in general on hating the State (a hatred which I share) than religion one way or another. So why call people who believe they hear from God "Crazy" and things like that? Even if you believe its true, do you really have anything at all to gain from trying to convince people of it?

    I know you aren't an "atheist" per say but I've always found it odd that atheists ever waste their time proselytizing. I get why a religion other than mine would do it, whether they be Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, or whatever, but I frankly don't see why anyone who believes in nothing at all would try to convince believers that they are crazy. What do they stand to gain?

    I know a lot of evangelical Christians, and I've definitely grown up in their community. America-worshipping tradition has certainly seeped into the church, to the point where it ticks me off at times, but the worst big-government drones (People, not machines, in this case) are generally people who don't give a crap about religion or God. Why do you think that is?

    Frankly, they accept majority rule as near-absolute because they don't have anything else. Why would they reject it? What higher authority do they have to hold majority rule to?

    Now, obviously I get that there are exceptions to all this, but the point I'm getting at is... you aren't ever going to convince Christians to be libertarians or ancaps if you make it out like the philosophy of anarchism is anti-religious. I wasn't really offended by your comments, but most people really aren't going to think very much about this philosophy. There aren't many of us, and if the first thing a Christian sees of the ancap philosophy is religion-bashing, quite frankly, they're going to reject it. Maybe that makes them "clovers", but I've been there. And frankly, in this one case, as a born-again Christian, I can't blame them.

    At the very least, stick to bashing the State

  2. #22
    That is a good question and I do not have an answer at this time.


    The answer can be found in Mark 4:12, or Romans 9. The problem is most Christians are Arminian, and so they don't want to know the answer

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    The answer can be found in Mark 4:12, or Romans 9. The problem is most Christians are Arminian, and so they don't want to know the answer
    True, that. Short of proselytizing, I really can't understand why atheists or religionists bother to initiate discussions of religion online. Maybe they're just entertaining themselves, or maybe they're honing their chops for future flamewars or something. Many on every side of this kind of discussion seem not to want to know or hear answers to questions they raise themselves, if those answers aren't easily batted aside or ridiculed.

    I see you're finding some dormant discussions to restart. Hope you start a few new ones as well. Good to see you here.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by doncoo View Post
    I've addressed this very issue many times before. If someone "buys into" the whole religion "thing" simply in an effort to "hedge their bets", and god really does exist, don't you think god knows that they are just "hedging their bets"? That they do not necessarily really believe and are not really necessarily convicted to him?

    Pascal should have added that row to his table.
    I don't agree with Pascal either. Especially since I believe to be saved you have to believe Jesus Christ died for your sins, not just believe in "God" (generic.) Also, although I do believe in eternal punishment on all unbelievers, a lot of people don't, and Pascal fails to consider that either.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    True, that. Short of proselytizing, I really can't understand why atheists or religionists bother to initiate discussions of religion online. Maybe they're just entertaining themselves, or maybe they're honing their chops for future flamewars or something. Many on every side of this kind of discussion seem not to want to know or hear answers to questions they raise themselves, if those answers aren't easily batted aside or ridiculed.

    I see you're finding some dormant discussions to restart. Hope you start a few new ones as well. Good to see you here.
    Hi, Ed.

    I can see why someone who is persuaded of their religion (Any religion, not just mine) would want to share it. But, why proselytize atheism? if the believer stops believing, how does that help the atheist?

    Now, I know some statist Christians can be aggravating, but showing them that they are interpreting the Bible wrong would probably be easier than trying to convince them not to believe anyway.

  5. #25
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Hi, Ed.

    I can see why someone who is persuaded of their religion (Any religion, not just mine) would want to share it. But, why proselytize atheism? if the believer stops believing, how does that help the atheist?
    Hm, think of religion as just a belief. Think of atheism as just a belief. If either is just a belief and someone is persuaded of their belief, then why not share that belief?

    Mind you, as a devout atheist myself I don't give a damn whether people believe or not - I just classify (organised) religion and politics as the two biggest evils in the world we live in.

    Ken.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Hm, think of religion as just a belief. Think of atheism as just a belief. If either is just a belief and someone is persuaded of their belief, then why not share that belief?

    Mind you, as a devout atheist myself I don't give a damn whether people believe or not - I just classify (organised) religion and politics as the two biggest evils in the world we live in.

    Ken.
    David & Ken, Seems to me that beliefs being shared are different from proselytization. As a Christian, I share Ken's view that organized religion and electoral politics are indeed two of the biggest evils affecting all of us. I was never comfortable proselytizing though the religious organization (church) my family attended took proselytization as a duty commanded by Christ. I might be a bad Christian, but I also fail to give a damn whether people believe or disbelieve so long as they don't assault me for what I fail (in their opinion) to accept as fact.

  7. #27
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    David & Ken, Seems to me that beliefs being shared are different from proselytization. As a Christian, I share Ken's view that organized religion and electoral politics are indeed two of the biggest evils affecting all of us.
    Good point, Ed. I should have made the distinction between sharing, i.e. being quite happy to say what I do/do not believe (if asked), and proselytizing.

    Ken.
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    Ken.
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  8. #28
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    Ken, my reading of the Bible has Christ commanding his disciples (not any others) to go out and preach. There's also an admonition to share the word, and then "shake the dust from your shoes" ( meaning walk away) if the person you shared with isn't receptive. That stops short of proselytizing, IMO.

    I remember the lyrics to a Steppenwolf song from the 60s:

    "but all the other teachings that I tried were about the same.

    One grain of truth mixed with confusion caused by man."

    Still makes sense to me.

  9. #29
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    There's also an admonition to share the word, and then "shake the dust from your shoes" ( meaning walk away) if the person you shared with isn't receptive.
    Yep. That's my philosophy, on my atheism, too.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
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    Ken,

    Just remember that atheists belong to a non-prophet organization.
    Sincerely,
    Anthony

    'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir

    What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC)

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Hm, think of religion as just a belief. Think of atheism as just a belief. If either is just a belief and someone is persuaded of their belief, then why not share that belief?

    Mind you, as a devout atheist myself I don't give a damn whether people believe or not - I just classify (organised) religion and politics as the two biggest evils in the world we live in.

    Ken.
    What do you mean by "organized religion"? Religion becomes evil when it sleeps with the State, but then, that goes for any organization that goes to bed with the State. As Ron Paul once said "If you are in bed with government, expect to catch the disease it spreads" or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    David & Ken, Seems to me that beliefs being shared are different from proselytization. As a Christian, I share Ken's view that organized religion and electoral politics are indeed two of the biggest evils affecting all of us. I was never comfortable proselytizing though the religious organization (church) my family attended took proselytization as a duty commanded by Christ. I might be a bad Christian, but I also fail to give a damn whether people believe or disbelieve so long as they don't assault me for what I fail (in their opinion) to accept as fact.

    I too take proselytism as a religious duty. I preach the gospel anytime I get a chance. But assaulting someone for not believing would be evil

  12. #32
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    I hope this fits here: There was a very "Christian" girl in high school who liked me, and at the time I was still a virgin, apparently she was too. We got to talking to each other on AOL instant messenger and somehow was able to steer the conversation towards sex (gee, I wonder how that happened?...). She told me that vaginal sex is only for married people, but anal and oral weren't sex, so that was ok. The next day at school I told my friends about the conversation and they pointed out to me that the girl had a lot of lower back hair, so for the next week I didn't want to be looked at as "not cool" to my friends so I started ignoring her. After another week or so me and my now massive boner tried talking to her but she started dating a guy she met at church (she was 17 at the time and the dude was 24).

    I also want to add that a different girl from my high school, who was super hot (therefore, way too cool to associate with me when I was in high school) and was a super slut. I haven't had a Facebook page in almost 2 years but back when I did I saw that this girl was married and now "super Catholic". Every one of her posts, on a daily basis, were some new quote for the bible or about how if you weren't Christian you're an idiot. That shit amuses the hell out of me.

    All that said, I have no disrespect for Christians (my whole family is Christian and I celebrate all the holidays with them, I even go to church with them sometimes), but it blows me away how many "fake" Christians there are out there.

  13. #33
    "super Catholic". Every one of her posts, on a daily basis, were some new quote for the bible or about how if you weren't Christian you're an idiot. That shit amuses the hell out of me.
    Catholicism is retarded.

    I seriously hope that any of you who decide not to believe Christianity do not have Romanism in mind when they think of Christianity.
    Last edited by David; 11-26-2013 at 01:26 AM.

  14. #34
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    What do you mean by "organized religion"? Religion becomes evil when it sleeps with the State, but then, that goes for any organization that goes to bed with the State. As Ron Paul once said "If you are in bed with government, expect to catch the disease it spreads" or something like that.
    In very simplistic terms - Any religion based on indoctrination from an early age. Any religion which is based on pomp and ceremony rather than on just living a good life - which requires no religious belief at all. Any religion whose church amasses great wealth from those poorer than itself. Etc, etc.

    Ken.
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    Ken.
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  15. #35
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    By organized religion, I mean religious organizations that go beyond the circle of believers and into the realm of property ownership by the church and association with other churches for the establishment of dogma, or agreed upon tenets of belief outside the core teachings of a single circle. It doesn't take much to become an organized religion. Anyone who likes that kind of thing, is fine with me. I'm not impressed with it, myself.
    Last edited by Ed; 11-26-2013 at 11:58 AM. Reason: typos

  16. #36
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    Sorry, the above should read "that go" rather than "the go". Edit function isn't working correctly.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Think of atheism as just a belief.
    I have to take issue with that statement! Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief! Personally I don't like labelling people as this or that -ist, but if we must have a label for those of us who have no beliefs I think we need one which distances itself from any notion of gods.

  18. #38
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Brand View Post
    I have to take issue with that statement! Atheism is not a belief, it's a lack of belief! Personally I don't like labelling people as this or that -ist, but if we must have a label for those of us who have no beliefs I think we need one which distances itself from any notion of gods.
    Not in my book, Dave.

    ATHEISM - Disbelief, or denial, of the existence of God or gods, godlessness. A rather more simplistic version than my own definition but it will suffice. One of the definitions of 'belief' (there are several) is 'thing believed'.

    If I believe that there is no God then that, by definition, is my belief. Atheism is a much a belief as theism.

    Ken.
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    Ken.
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