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  1. #1
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    My Ron Paul moment

    I finally got to meet Ron Paul this past weekend at the GOP foreign policy debate in Spartanburg, SC.

    What a genuine man. After he spoke in the morning, he took over 450 pictures with supporters.

    Then after the debate he came to the pizza place where we gathered to watch, and signed hundreds upon hundreds of books, signs, t-shirts etc...

    He engaged every single person he met. He wrote a dedication in my book for my father - it's a Christmas present so don't anyone say anything. Then he asked me some questions about my dad and we chatted. Just a remarkably humble and intelligent man.

    America doesn't deserve Ron Paul.

  2. #2
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    The American public votes with its head in its tail. To think that New Gingrich is reportedly at the top of the Republican heap right now is enough to make me want to vomit profusely. This guy is globalist trash and is the anthesis of the fumbuly values that these nitwits purport to embrace. He divorced his wife while she was sick with cancer and played slap and tickle on the side. Now, he tells us that he did it because he was working hard for America. He belongs in a psych ward, not the white house, but if these morons actually vote for this guy, we are getting what I don't deserve. I won't vote for that trash.

    That said, I like Ron Paul although I think that he has a huge blind spot on the trade issue. I don't believe in doing business with countries that enslave their workers as a matter of principle. Of course, for some goods, yo simply can't buy American, but we need to encourage American manufacturing.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BrentP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    That said, I like Ron Paul although I think that he has a huge blind spot on the trade issue. I don't believe in doing business with countries that enslave their workers as a matter of principle. Of course, for some goods, yo simply can't buy American, but we need to encourage American manufacturing.
    The problem is that once you go down the protectionist road, once you play the game, the globalists have their in. You can bet that *ANY* trade rules are going to benefit, work towards the goals of the power elite, the globalists. To play up the 'slave wages' is to give the power to create managed trade which has always been used to hurt the american middle class.

    Slave wages are not productive. Henry Ford figured this out in the early 20th century and faced the wrath of those who's families have much of the influence over government today. Henry Ford gave up their model because it didn't work for what he cared about, productivity. Of course the power elite don't care about productivity they care about domination and controlling everyone's lives as if they were livestock.

    China and others only work because of managed trade, because of the globalists defining the currencies, taxes, trade rules, etc and so forth in the favor of manufacturing there. Eliminate this and it makes no sense to go to China. Back the dollar with gold. How is china going to maintain their peg? The whole globalist system falls apart by eliminating their tools.

    Plus without the globalists a lot of those countries become not so safe for investment. The US becomes safe. With the globalists it's safer to build a factory in China than in the USA. (carbon taxes and all sorts of other nonsense).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentP View Post
    The problem is that once you go down the protectionist road, once you play the game, the globalists have their in. You can bet that *ANY* trade rules are going to benefit, work towards the goals of the power elite, the globalists. To play up the 'slave wages' is to give the power to create managed trade which has always been used to hurt the american middle class.

    Slave wages are not productive. Henry Ford figured this out in the early 20th century and faced the wrath of those who's families have much of the influence over government today. Henry Ford gave up their model because it didn't work for what he cared about, productivity. Of course the power elite don't care about productivity they care about domination and controlling everyone's lives as if they were livestock.

    China and others only work because of managed trade, because of the globalists defining the currencies, taxes, trade rules, etc and so forth in the favor of manufacturing there. Eliminate this and it makes no sense to go to China. Back the dollar with gold. How is china going to maintain their peg? The whole globalist system falls apart by eliminating their tools.

    Plus without the globalists a lot of those countries become not so safe for investment. The US becomes safe. With the globalists it's safer to build a factory in China than in the USA. (carbon taxes and all sorts of other nonsense).
    Disagree. Until about 1913, the government existed on tariffs and not income taxes. During that time, the government was small. Tariffs are not managed trade. Managed trade as practiced has consistently been lowering trade tariffs and barriers over the last 35-40 years. Managed trade agreements give countries like the United States fewer options in determining their economic futures, instead leaving that to world trade commissions and things like that.

    If our liberalizing trade policies were so good, how come over 110,000 factories have closed since 1972 in search of cheaper labor? We run a $600 billion trade deficit annually. Simply reducing pollution regulations and permitting requirements is not going to close that gap, although it may help somewhat. Because of our higher labor rates, factories are simply not going to return.

    When Henry Ford, whom I respect, paid the $5.00 per day wage, the US was still very much protectionist. There were also very few auto manufacturers overseas that competed with the Ford product.

    As a country, we need every available trade tool in our arsenal to deal with countries who pay their workers slave wages, allow companies to grossly pollute their lakes, rivers and streams without cost, and oppress their workers.

    I am all for free trade in the sense that we should be free to erect barriers against countries that do not respect worker's rights. Western european nations and Japan do not fall into that category.

    There are countries that we need to import precious metals and certain agricultural products that cannot be grown here. Those goods should enter in barrier free.

    The rest, I say, get rid of the income tax and start taxing the living crap out of goods made by slaves. Its fair, honest and humane.

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    Not sure I get the whole slave wage argument. Can someone live on the American minimum wage? No. Do we not have low wage, child labor in the U.S.? Yes.

    Growing up in Florida I mowed lawns twice a week in the summer in 100 degree heat with 100% humidity for $2/lawn. Why did those people hire me and other kids to mow their lawns and not a professional lawn service? Because they could pay me "slave wages"!

    Whether you exploit a labor force or not is not a fuzzy matter. You either do or you don't. You don't get to say: we don't exploit it as much or as a matter of principle. You either do or you don't and the truth is that everybody does.

    The economics are clear: production costs of all kinds are too high here so the smart businessman goes somewhere else. But even that can be a good thing if the gov't would get out of the way.

    Sending manufacturing offshore, produces a cheaper product here, which increases sales which creates jobs here. As sales go up you need to increase productivity which affects the whole company from salesmen to accounting to shipping to engineering to this and that. Manufacturing is but the one piece of the production process.

    Having said that, if gov't regulations and taxations weren't what they are then we could bring manufacturing back to the U.S. which would get other countries competing with us again and everybody wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doncoo View Post
    Not sure I get the whole slave wage argument. Can someone live on the American minimum wage? No. Do we not have low wage, child labor in the U.S.? Yes.

    Growing up in Florida I mowed lawns twice a week in the summer in 100 degree heat with 100% humidity for $2/lawn. Why did those people hire me and other kids to mow their lawns and not a professional lawn service? Because they could pay me "slave wages"!

    Whether you exploit a labor force or not is not a fuzzy matter. You either do or you don't. You don't get to say: we don't exploit it as much or as a matter of principle. You either do or you don't and the truth is that everybody does.

    The economics are clear: production costs of all kinds are too high here so the smart businessman goes somewhere else. But even that can be a good thing if the gov't would get out of the way.

    Sending manufacturing offshore, produces a cheaper product here, which increases sales which creates jobs here. As sales go up you need to increase productivity which affects the whole company from salesmen to accounting to shipping to engineering to this and that. Manufacturing is but the one piece of the production process.

    Having said that, if gov't regulations and taxations weren't what they are then we could bring manufacturing back to the U.S. which would get other countries competing with us again and everybody wins.
    Oh, please. Libertarians who love to talk about economics love to talk about supply and demand when it comes to manufactured goods never talk about it when it comes to labor. Kids and Teenagers willing to break a sweat in the 100 degree heat for a couple of bucks was not going to put professional lawn services out of business.

    Over a billion of the worlds workers willing to work for 30 cents an hour will put America out of business and already is.There is also a huge difference between making minimum wage here in the US and living in China or some other country on 30-40 cents an hour. Even factoring differences in teh cost of living, they are living much, much worse.

    You get rid of basic worker protections that exist here, (and that libertarian inclined people seem to dislike but also benefit from), in time, we will get closer to the average Chinese worker.

    The numbers on job creation by imports are smoke and mirrors. Let's take a real world example. A country increases its imports of Hondas, Mazdas or Toyotas. U.S. sales go down (all things being equal) and yes, new dealerships open up. Sales jobs are created for Toyota dealers and lost for GM/Ford/ Chrysler dealers. The factory jobs are lost and everyone loses eventually. Sure, if a bubble is forming in the economy, there may be increases for everyone, but that usually doesn't last.... Here we are.

    Loss of factories from production in the US does not benefit the average American, although it may make economic numbers look good (lower inflation, greater corporate profits, fattened 401ks (?)). Just how does saving 50 cents on a hammer or a broom create jobs?

    I am sorry to personalize this with the term "libertarian" but that is the only thing that I vehemently disagree with the libertarian line. I don't think that the free trade/libertarian line takes into account an imperfect world.

    The founding fathers of this once-great country did. The Constitution specifically authorized excise taxes, duties and imposts on foreign made trash. Keep it out.
    Last edited by swamprat; 11-16-2011 at 01:17 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    Disagree. Until about 1913, the government existed on tariffs and not income taxes. During that time, the government was small. Tariffs are not managed trade. Managed trade as practiced has consistently been lowering trade tariffs and barriers over the last 35-40 years. Managed trade agreements give countries like the United States fewer options in determining their economic futures, instead leaving that to world trade commissions and things like that.

    If our liberalizing trade policies were so good, how come over 110,000 factories have closed since 1972 in search of cheaper labor? We run a $600 billion trade deficit annually. Simply reducing pollution regulations and permitting requirements is not going to close that gap, although it may help somewhat. Because of our higher labor rates, factories are simply not going to return.
    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post


    When Henry Ford, whom I respect, paid the $5.00 per day wage, the US was still very much protectionist. There were also very few auto manufacturers overseas that competed with the Ford product.


    As a country, we need every available trade tool in our arsenal to deal with countries who pay their workers slave wages, allow companies to grossly pollute their lakes, rivers and streams without cost, and oppress their workers.


    I am all for free trade in the sense that we should be free to erect barriers against countries that do not respect worker's rights. Western european nations and Japan do not fall into that category.


    There are countries that we need to import precious metals and certain agricultural products that cannot be grown here. Those goods should enter in barrier free.


    The rest, I say, get rid of the income tax and start taxing the living crap out of goods made by slaves. Its fair, honest and humane.


    What has happened in the last few decades is not free trade by any sort. First rule, what the political office holders call something is what it is NOT. Do not put down real free trade because of a bunch of politicians doing whatever the globalist think tanks say.

    Tariffs have always been selective and designed to benefit some americans at the cost to other americans. It is how insiders can seek favor from the government. Once you accept the premise that an economy has to be managed by government for one reason or another you've accepted the fundamental premise by which the income tax, the bankster bailouts, and everything else stems.

    How do you argue that a tariff on foreign cars to product domestic automakers is ok but regulations on cars that favor existing domestic automakers isn't? What if I want to get into the car business but US suppliers don't want to sell me parts because the big three would get upset with them? Now I have to pay tariffs to get parts from overseas suppliers which prices my car out of the market.

    The government cannot have the power to shape the economy or it *WILL* abuse it for the benefit of those close to it and those in the government itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    Oh, please. Libertarians who love to talk about economics love to talk about supply and demand when it comes to manufactured goods never talk about it when it comes to labor. Kids and Teenagers willing to break a sweat in the 100 degree heat for a couple of bucks was not going to put professional lawn services out of business.

    Over a billion of the worlds workers willing to work for 30 cents an hour will put America out of business and already is.There is also a huge difference between making minimum wage here in the US and living in China or some other country on 30-40 cents an hour. Even factoring differences in teh cost of living, they are living much, much worse.

    You get rid of basic worker protections that exist here, (and that libertarian inclined people seem to dislike but also benefit from), in time, we will get closer to the average Chinese worker.
    China is the model for the world and managed trade is one of the tools to get there. It is the power over the economy given to governments that has allowed it to come this far. Ever notice how wealthy China is exempt from any and all international treaties on the environment? That they won't even put in the cheap stuff that does most of the work? There's a reason for that. It's on purpose. Those who influence government wish to destroy the US economy. To knock the american worker down several pegs. They do this with government's power over the economy.

    If this were straight up free trade there would be no reason to go to China. But the whole system is rigged in favor of making things in China so that's where they are made. The rise of China is the direct result of the political environment that favors it while disfavoring the USA.

    Worker protections are the same thing, it's how politics works. It's a question of power. Government instead of dealing with companies that violate people's rights make new laws that gives government more power. Government failure to do its job is rewarded with more power and the laws on labor are no different.

    Government and all that it does will never be a tool of long term prosperity for the american worker. At best the american worker will do a little better for a short while because at that moment it serves the interests of those in government to do something in their favor. Long term the american worker will always suffer under the power of government.

    We've got tons of regulation. Overall, what's happening? What the globalists want. Not what is best for us.

    I'd rather take my chances in more or less fair competition than in a government managed system where the deck is always stacked against us. Where barriers are put in our way of having our own businesses too.

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    It is early and I don't have time to get into a polemical discussion, but this article explains how specific people would get hit by nothing other than removing a shoe tariff. I want to buy athletic shoes that are made in the USA. If New Balalnce is forced to close their now operating plant because it makes no sense to operate here whereas before the removal of the tariff, they could hang on, how is that "free."

    http://www.chron.com/business/articl...ce-2081136.php

    I just don't buy free trade arguments. At one time I believe that free trade made our industries more competitive, but there has to be some equalizing tax so that American workers don't get the shaft.

    Look, the Chinese and the Koreans and everyone else are doing it and we cling to the idea of removing the last of our tariffs as if it will somehow enhance our standard of living.

    Our standard of living has dropped like a rock in the last 40 years. The only thing that keeps us in our houses and keeps us buying cars is cheap and available credit. If this wasn't available (through fed printing money whcih I'm against, btw), it would have been "game over" 15 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doncoo View Post
    I finally got to meet Ron Paul this past weekend at the GOP foreign policy debate in Spartanburg, SC.

    What a genuine man. After he spoke in the morning, he took over 450 pictures with supporters.

    Then after the debate he came to the pizza place where we gathered to watch, and signed hundreds upon hundreds of books, signs, t-shirts etc...

    He engaged every single person he met. He wrote a dedication in my book for my father - it's a Christmas present so don't anyone say anything. Then he asked me some questions about my dad and we chatted. Just a remarkably humble and intelligent man.

    America doesn't deserve Ron Paul.
    I agree. I met him many years ago. He sometimes stayed with my parents when he visited our town. He is very unassuming, and what we refer to a 'just a nice guy.'

    I'm glad you got the chance to meet him.

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