Originally Posted by doncoo
Oh come on. We have had 35-40 years of this failed experiment called free trade. Over that time, 110,000 factories have left our shores, resulting in the loss of close to 20 million jobs. Real inflation adjusted wages have fallen 25% since 1973. Our cumulative trade deficit is approaching $10 trillion. That's no problem though, because we are getting cheap shit from China and those are jobs that don't need to stay here.
We can just sit here and be "creative." What type of ivory tower do you live in? Or cave?
I don't know, nor do I care.
You people believe that people should the economy or some theory. Do yourself a favor and read a book instead of spouting your free trade swill.
http://books.google.com/books?id=f5h...ionism&f=false
You've never seen "free trade". The "free" in "free-trade" means free of gov't intervention. The gov't regulates and taxes every single industry in this country including international trade.
That foolish statement alone says everything about what you know on the subject. Better not to say anything and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
As Ross Perot said so well back in 1992: "If money is the only think you care about........"
This pretty much sums up outsourcing, China, and India. Somebody 'thinks' they are saving money - but not really.
Not only are the factory workers displaced, but people who sell things to the factories: goods and services - all sorts of things from programming services to paper towels - all those people are cut out.
It's so simplistic to think that one item: "money" is the true measure of worth.
I think what we really want is for people to be productive, participating individuals in society. As businesses become bigger, more monopolistic, they do their best to dumb down jobs, and reduce the importance of any one employee. This lowers wages, and destroy's moral.
The U6 unemployment figures are something like 16% - many say more close to 20%. How do these poor people live? We we pay taxes for their rent / food stamps / medical / etc. So all that money you have saved buying that cheap shit from China is wiped out.
Back in the day, Joe Stalin would have just shot 20,000,000 of the 'extra' people. I am sick and tired of hearing: "they need training" - we are so over educated as it is. We need a system that allows people to make their own opportunities.
You guys and your armchair economics. *sigh*
Have either of you ever actually studied international trade, economics, American Trade History? Ever worked internationally? Ever worked for a firm that outsources and asked the management why? Have any real expertise of your own at all?
Your statement that money is not the sole measure of worth shows everything you don't understand about economics.
Should I recommend an online course?
I don't see you giving any positive ideas on how to restore employment. You have the broken record about how getting the product with the highest productivity.
Productivity can be really ellusive. People live in a social structure. I believe the goal should be to allow people to 'suceed' while being productive, contributing memebers of society. By having 16 - 18% U6 unemployment, it's really killing peoples' morale.
When businesses decide to outsource their work, individuals are left with a lot less options. It's easy to see the US is in a decline. Here in Minnesota they want to build a $Billion dollar Vikings stadium. They argue about casino's, gambling, taxes. What's the worth of any of it? Nothing - crap entertainment - crap jobs for beer sellers - crap jobs for parking lot attendants, crap gambling - nothing about it is productive. What a waste of energy.
This is the same system that has brought us outsourcing. I have been indirectly involved in outsourcing for about 15 years.
IT outsourcing: First of all what you get is a bunch of 'code monkeys'. These people have grown up in the third world. Concepts we take for granted are foreign to them. A simple thing as 'the up arrow key' can take a huge amount of time, there are many social / economic concepts that they don't understand. Their education is mostly wrote and a joke. All you can give them are little, individual tasks. Naturally, breaking down a project into small elements, and having the pieces integrated takes a lot of management. So much management that it pretty much defeats the money your saving.
Engineering outsourcing to China: Give them a spec and they will build it. But they lie. You can ask is this such and such compliant and they will tell you "yes". They will send you any word doc that says what you want. But it's a lie. Half the components in a lot fail. Have circuit boards made in Mexico? they use twice as many components cause the others fall off the boards before they are flow soldered. Been to Mexico, seen 55 gallon drums with perfectly good IC's that didn't get attached to the boards. And forget about the environmental specs, forget about the labor laws.
You're going to need a 'rep' (several reps) to get anything done. In the end, the cheap may be more expensive.
IMO the people who run these companies that think they're saving money, have their heads up their ass!
Last edited by dBrong; 01-03-2012 at 05:52 PM.
Sure I have. Go back and read them. Should I recommend an online reading comprehension course as well?
As for your comment on "code monkeys" and their inability to produce: I worked in one of those countries with those "code monkeys" doing embedded software development. Your comments show your ignorance, immaturity and lack of humility.
It's not crime to be ignorant of a subject, but it just makes you look stupid having a loud and vociferous opinion on it while remaining in that state of ignorance.
You epitomize the saying: better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, rather than open it and remove all doubt.
Turn on 20/20 and continue your economics education little one. Let the adults discuss the important things.
Last edited by doncoo; 01-03-2012 at 06:07 PM.
Humility??? Ha! Ha Ha! - You're the one to speak of humility.
I am an expert software developer.
These turd worlders shit in the weeds, the rivers. Use oxen to plow fields. If they have have so much going for them, they should put their own house in order. Let the Indians and Chinese build up their own countries - they can't. They let themselves be used as whores. While some MBA here in the US is trying to screw his very own countrymen.
Our country is seriously dammaged by this bullshit. But that's OK cause we have mega government, sports, gambling, insurance, financial services, IPhones, IPads, video games, internet, and 4G networks. We're gonna wake up some morning and discover you can't eat that crap, you can't live in that crap, it can't keep you warm, and it won't love you back.
With our great financial, management, and government leadership we have 20,000,000 unemployed people. Assuming 2000 hrs/man year, we are wasting 160,000,000 man hours a day - 40,000,000,000 (40 billion) man hours a year! Imagine what could be done with 40 billion man hours - yet nothing is done.
In the song 'Fame' (by David Bowie) he has these lines:
"Fame.... put's you there where things are hollow"
"Fame.... what you need you have to borrow."
"Fame.... what you get is no tomorrow."
That's about it for life in the new US with mega government and mega corps.
Are you high?
Yes, it's called free trade. Call a tomato an orange, it's still a tomato. We do not have free trade. We have national agreements with quotas and tariffs and thousands upon thousands of lines of regulation. If you want to call that free trade be my guest, it's a misleading label.
He lives in the one where they actually teach economics.We can just sit here and be "creative." What type of ivory tower do you live in? Or cave?
Sure, once you take your own advice.Do yourself a favor and read a book
Yes, the founding fathers had protectionist views. That's not at issue, what's at issue is whether or not protectionism is beneficial. It isn't.
Stop regulating our workforce into the ground. That will restore employment. Stop debasing the currency, that will restore and improve real wages and stop the exportation of jobs to foreign nations as a payoff for them facilitating our domestic debasement. Nullify and void any and all so called 'free trade' agreements and let individuals and businesses trade as they see fit with who they see fit. That will ensure the demand for workers at all levels is determined by actual need as opposed to some appointed foreign bureaucrat with one hand on his cock and the other on the rule book. That should eliminate a good amount of 'frictional' unemployment because we won't be educating engineers to fill non engineer positions. Eliminate the goverment monopoly on education so all people can access and utilize the education that works best for them. For poor people this may be more direct; a (new) trade to imrove their employment and earning prospects. For the rich this may be the classics for their kids. Forcing everyone into pseudo prisons that stomp on genius and force a one size fits all cirrcullum on all people regardless of their desires, needs, and capabilities, needs to stop.
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