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Thread: Buy American ...?

  1. #1
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Buy American ...?

    Should you "buy American" - or buy whatever's right for you, regardless of who made it or where?


    I guess it depends on your personal experiences, likes and dislikes. Let me share a few of mine.


    But first, a little context.


    I grew up in a "buy American" family. All my parents ever drove while I was growing up were American cars. Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets, mostly. So, that was my early bias, too. And I still love the style and personality of American cars - especially those built during the 1960s and '70s. On an emotional level, they have me all nailed up. I still own and likely will never sell my '76 Trans Am muscle car. It's a head-turner and it makes me feel good just to look at it.


    But my daily driver is a '98 Nissan pick-up. And I recently bought another exactly like it, only two years newer.


    Why?


    Because, first of all, Nissan Number One (the '98 Frontier) has proved to be a mechanical Wolverine that just takes punishment and keeps on coming back for more. The thing is almost fourteen years old now and pushing 140,000 miles an it has never - not once - let me down. It still has its original clutch. The AC works. Everything works.


    It runs and drives a helluva lot better today, with all those miles and all those years on it, than my parents' Detroit stuff did Back in the Day with half the mileage.


    And the body? Despite sitting outside all year long and rarely ever washed it still looks almost new from 20 yards away. The paint is shiny; the rubber trim hasn't begun to disintegrate.


    It could be a four or five year old truck, as far as its appearance.
    Other than routine maintenance, it has needed nothing from me but gas in the tank.


    Oh, and while we are on the subject of maintenance... .


    Working on the Frontier has been a joy, not a test of will. The engineers obviously gave thought to designing this truck so that it would be as simple as possible to service.


    For example, the front brakes. To change the pads, it is not even necessary to unbolt the caliper from the rotor. Just turn out a single bolt and you can swing up the top section of the caliper, which gives you access to both pads. They can then be popped out with your hands. Seat the pistons with a C-clamp, pop in the new pads, swing down the upper portion of the caliper and reinstall and tighten the bolt.


    You're done.


    It is almost a tool-free brake job that literally takes maybe 5 minutes per wheel and costs about $30 for a top-of-the-line set of new pads.


    Another example:


    Because I am compulsive, I changed out the truck's water pump at 100,000 miles - not because it needed to be changed. I just figured (based on years of cruel experience) that at 100k, I was on borrowed time and better to do the job when it was convenient for me, instead of 60 miles from home (and my tools) by the side of the road someplace.
    It was the easiest water pump job I have ever done and I have done dozens of them over the years. The radiator was designed to lift out easily after undoing two bolts (and the radiator itself has an easily accessed - not hidden/hard to reach - drain plug). The accessories all were mounted in such a way that removing them was simple. The individual drive belts could be loosened (and tensioned) simply by turning in a 14 mm screw. I did the job, start to finish, in just over 30 minutes. And I could have done it in a 7-11 parking lot if I'd had to. The only tools necessary were a a socket driver, pliers (to loosen the hose clamps) and one each 10 mm socket and 14 mm socket. That's it.


    You can get to the AC blower fan by taking out a few screws that hold a panel to the underside of the glovebox. All the drain holes for the transmission, front and rear axles and transfer case are easily accessible - not hidden behind something or so close to to the frame or some other part that you can't get at them without special tools or some elaborate procedure.


    Experiences such as these conjure affection for the machine over time. You begin to feel as loyal to it as it has been to you.


    Meanwhile, American cars.


    My experience with them has not been so yin-yang. Looks and heart, they have. But most seem to have been assembled with ease of manufacturing in mind, not ease of service. Just one example: To get to my Trans-Am's heater core, you must disassemble most of the AC system first. My father-in-law's early '90s Caddy has an oil filter that can't be reached by conventional tools. You have to snake your hand through a bunch of hoses and brackets on the top of the engine, then try to loosen it by hand. If you are lucky all that will happen is a big mess, because the filter is mounted upside down on top of the engine. If you are unlucky, whoever last installed the filter will have overtightened it - and you'll spend some quality time trying to get it loose.


    My folks had a Lincoln Mark VII. Pretty car. Lots of power. But the transmission failed at 70,000 miles ($4,000, if I recall) and the air spring suspension leaked constantly. Each air spring cost something like $1,000 to replace. There are four air springs on the car. The dealer was indifferent. My folks - who had bought nothing but American cars since they began buying cars - bought a Lexus to replace the Lincoln.
    And they have never been happier with either a car or the service they have received.


    Me too.


    On top of all this (reason enough, in my book), the ugly truth is that "American" car companies are in fact multinational corporations whose main loyalty is to their bottom line and the salaries of upper management - not the American worker or the American nation.


    Some will take offense a that, but it doesn't make the statement less true. GM and Ford and Chrysler all aggressively backed and pushed for so-called "free trade" policies that made it easy for them to close factories in the United States and open them in places like Mexico and even China, where labor costs are much lower (but of course, the cars didn't get any cheaper when they were shipped back to El Norte). They also - yes, even Ford - used Uncle Sam to bail them out of their largely self-caused problems.
    Meanwhile, companies like Nissan (and Honda and Toyota and Mercedes-Benz and BMW) have been opening plants in the United States that employ American workers - at good wages, too. Without unions. True, much of the profit leaves the country - but a large chunk of it also provides a livelihood for thousands of Americans, which is more than can be said of a Mexican-built Chevy or Ford - the profits from which only enrich already rich CEOs and management and big-time shareholders.
    So, much as I like the idea of supporting the home team, until the home team starts supporting me (and America) in return, I will continue to do what makes the most sense for me.


    I recommend you do the same, too.

  2. #2
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    What rational person would willingly pay more for something they need when they could pay less? Why would they waste that extra money? That makes no sense.

    If an American company can produce what I need at a price I'm willing to pay then great. I'll buy American.

    But if because of gov't regulations, gov't taxation, gov't tarriffs and abusive union wages and benefits ( and having worked at a Chrysler plant don't anybody even try to argue they're not abusive ) they can't produce what I need at a price I'm willing to pay, why would I buy it from them?

    They need to address the regulatons and taxation and union problems and learn to use their resources more efficiently. How does anybody wasting scarce resources benefit anybody?

    People who make decisions with their feelings rather than their heads will try some ridiculous argument that buying American helps Americans. But it doesn't. Just look at Detroit for your real world example. Not only did people buy American to help Americans, not only did the gov't bailout the auto industry to help Americans, and the town is still devastated!

    Unless you have some magic potion, you cannot waste money and other resources and expect to be able to create wealth and economic prosperity.

    This idea of buying American is just an implicit form of trade barrier or economic embargo and as with all such things, it's the people who ultimately suffer.
    Last edited by doncoo; 11-29-2011 at 10:11 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    I buy American when I can. Sam Walton drove a lot of American businesses out of business through predatory pricing and Chinese government sponsored slave labor. ChinaMart (Wally Wurld) will advertise low prices BUT, when you go to buy, say a small radio, it will be there and the price will be what you think it is. However, you'll see one next to it with better features for just a little more. Wait a minute, next to that one is a great radio!!!! Of course the price you pay for the better radio will be more. That's where the catch is. That same radio at another store would actually be cheaper.

    WallyWurld also used to have shopping carts at the entrance. They would be labeled "What you can buy for X number of dollars here" and "What you can buy across the street". Both carts were wrapped in plastic so you couldn't see the small print on the packaging. This means you'd see three cans of coffee in the "other guys" cart but you'd see five in the Chinaworld cart. Since they buy in bulk, they can get special packaging. The 5 cans were actually enough smaller than the three regular cans it looked good but there was less coffee in the cans due to a smaller package size.

    The Federal Trade Commission and several states made them stop it. WallyWurld doesn't even make much noise about lower prices. Smaller competitors are taking a large chunk of their market since the Walton family is rich and squabbling about how to get richer.

    What is American now anyway? Toyotas are built 20 miles from my house and have more American content than many old line U.S. car makers. A lot of folks around my neighborhood work there. Granted, profits go to the company and then to the stock holders. Some are Japanese but many are not. Harley-Davidson is touted as an American brand but a LOT of it's stock is foreign owned. Chrysler, Ford and G.M. have built cars in Canada and Maxico for years.
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    Senior Member BrentP's Avatar
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    I'll spare the details since I've brought it up before, but my experience with my '97 mustang GT is about the same, just with more mileage and a more severe climate. I've had a few more issues but nothing I couldn't blame on chicago's climate and my own desire to keep things up more than most people. In a 14 year old truck things I've replaced would be lived with or perhaps not even noticed. I've found the car to also be rather easy to work on too.

    My experience with Japanese cars, almost entirely mazdas has been finding they are difficult to work on.

    Maybe I was foolish getting another mustang. Guess time will tell. But so far I don't see any reason why it shouldn't last just as long.

    Considering global supply chains I don't think there really is such a thing as 'buy whatever' any more. I believe trade unites the people of the world (those of us outside the ruling class and without access to use government to our advantage).
    I realize that every remaining automaker uses government to their advantage. The business has become one where either the game is played or one goes out of business.

    I suppose if I really wanted to make a statement I'd find a 1930s stutz, auburn, or some other make that didn't survive.

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    I try and buy American or from a first world country like France, Germany, UK, Japan, etc so that I minimize my chance of taking advantage of slave labor.

    I think that someone knowingly taking advantage of oppressed people needs to move to China to help produce those goods that we enjoy so cheaply.

    There are some things that you cannot buy American and are forced to buy chinese, but there are other areas where we have a choice. That's what I'm talking about.

    Don't start talking about components being made outside of this country,for I've heard it all before.

    It boils down to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    I try and buy American or from a first world country like France, Germany, UK, Japan, etc so that I minimize my chance of taking advantage of slave labor.

    I think that someone knowingly taking advantage of oppressed people needs to move to China to help produce those goods that we enjoy so cheaply.

    There are some things that you cannot buy American and are forced to buy chinese, but there are other areas where we have a choice. That's what I'm talking about.

    Don't start talking about components being made outside of this country,for I've heard it all before.

    It boils down to that.
    There's no slave labor in China. No one is in bondage. They can choose to leave and work else where if they don't like the wages they are being paid. Millions of Chinese make good wages in China and out. Factory wages are low for unskilled labor but wages in the cities are much higher. Also the cost of living in china is low for those living and working in rural areas so the low nominal wages equate to a higher real wage.

    You are not helping low wage earners in China by not buying Chinese goods, in fact you are hurting them. If the demand for those goods goes down then that means possible layoffs and unemployment for those people.

    Wages are determined by the supply and demand for labor. Don't kid yourself, if the gov't didn't impose price controls on wages here, unskilled manual laborers would be making much, much less than the minimum wage, as they should. Anything else is just wasting money and resources and that benefits no one.

    I know the liberal, progressive position is based on "feelings" but feelings have never been able to successfully allocate resources efficiently and policies based on those sorts of sentiments is what has gotten the economy to where it is now.

    Here's a recent report on unskilled manufacturing wages in China:

    http://www.ventureoutsource.com/cont...tion-costs-ems

    Also notice, these workers don't seem to be toiling in a dungeon as slaves. They are unskilled labor and earn unskilled labor wages for the market they work in. That's it. If a manufacturer can get a laborer for $1.68/hr why would he pay him $5 and waste the additional $3.32/hr? And if the laborer has the skills to earn more than $1.68/hr at another company, why would he waste his time working for $1.68? Neither the manufacturer nor the worker will waste either.
    Last edited by doncoo; 11-30-2011 at 09:36 AM.

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    No slave labor in China? Really?

    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/sec...rker-suicides/


    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...0/200712.shtml

    http://clearwisdom.net/emh/129/

    China is not the US. People are not really free to speak for themselves, much less move around.

    While China's middle class is about the same size as ours, their population is 4 times ours, so there are a lot of poor people in the PRC. In Chinese villages, rarely is there electricity or running water, so yes, the cost of living is lower.

    Do we really want to go there?

    If we remove the minimum wage, it will become like that here.

    Screw that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    No slave labor in China? Really?

    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/sec...rker-suicides/


    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...0/200712.shtml

    http://clearwisdom.net/emh/129/

    China is not the US. People are not really free to speak for themselves, much less move around.

    While China's middle class is about the same size as ours, their population is 4 times ours, so there are a lot of poor people in the PRC. In Chinese villages, rarely is there electricity or running water, so yes, the cost of living is lower.

    Do we really want to go there?

    If we remove the minimum wage, it will become like that here.

    Screw that.
    Your lack of understanding (ignorance) of economics, China, and business along with your "feelings" of what's right clouds your position. I have spoken at length about this very issue with friends and colleagues who have lived and live there now. But you don't strike me as the kind of person who puts much stock in facts.

    Go ahead boycott Chinese made products. Then when those factories shut down and those "slaves" become "beggers" because they lost their jobs thanks to your boycott, who will you blame the low standard of living in China on then? Is a job at any wage better than no job?

    The minimum wage increases unemployment and prevents young people who need work experience from ever getting hired since the business is being forced to pay above market wages.

    Nobody can live off minimum wage anyway. If minimum wage is such a great idea, then why not increase it to something that somebody can actually live on like $20/hr? Or even $50. If minimum wage has no detrimental affects on business or the economy then up it to $100.

    $7.5 or whatever it is now is just some ridiculous, arbitrary number that solves nothing. And when economic times get tough like they are now, the minimum wage prevents businesses from being able to temporarily lower wages in order to cut costs and weather the storm. Instead they have to lay people off which means they lose their income, benefits and everything.

    Educate yourself and leave the statistics. Stats are for chumps. You can find as many articles as you like from a wide range of people on this issue.

    http://www.house.gov/jec/cost-gov/re...um/50years.htm

    With no minimum wage, unskilled workers would earn unskilled worker wages just like skilled workers earn skilled worker wages and if you believe that so many Americans are so unskilled that only with the gov't mandating a minimum wage, are we at a higher standard of living than China, then the problem is the American worker.

    The minimum wage just hides their lack of productive ability, so who does that benefit? Instead of gov't mandated price controls - which is nothing more than another form of welfare - how about American workers acquiring some fucking skills above and beyond that of a Chinese villager?

    Ah but that would mean people taking personal responsibility for their job skills and that's un-American. The new politically correct American way is for the gov't to take care of the unskilled workers with money from skilled workers even though the skilled workers invested their own time, money, blood, sweat and tears in acquiring those skills and the unskilled workers didn't earn that money.

    The old communist manifesto: from each according to his ability (skilled workers), to each according to his needs (unskilled workers).

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    Last edited by doncoo; 11-30-2011 at 02:07 PM.

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    Senior Member BrentP's Avatar
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    Buying made in the USA, China, or anywhere else will not fix the real problem.

    China being built up industrially at the expense of the USA is due first and foremost to the ruling class of the empire, the US empire. These are the families of the robber barons and control freak industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The people who made the company towns and tried to control every aspect of the lives of the employees. Those that despised Henry Ford for going to an 8 hour day, paying more, and ultimately rejecting the entire concept of the company running employees' lives. They probably weren't too happy with americans in general for rebelling against this sort of societal order either.

    The systems that ultimately failed in the USA are being reborn in China. They think they can pull it off. Ultimately it will fail. It cannot succeed. It is bound for failure sooner or later. The Chinese people will reject it just as americans did. If not through rebellion it will happen when someone like Henry Ford decides he can make more money by treating people better. Someone will do it. It _will_ happen. It may already be in process.

    Without the currency manipulations made in China wouldn't be cheap any longer. I think we all know of some of the players in that area.

    The minimum wage was developed as a tool of racism. The initial minimum wage laws in the USA were designed to price black laborers out of jobs. It's in the record of debate for the legislation. Minimum wage laws are about keeping people poor, keeping them dependent, keeping them from upward mobility by not letting them on to the first rung of the ladder.

    Abolish the minimum wage tomorrow and nobody would take a pay cut due to it. Nobody is employed for more than their employer feels they are worth without some other factor in play. What will happen is there will be a whole bunch more jobs that didn't exist before because what wasn't economically viable to hire someone would become economically viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentP View Post
    Buying made in the USA, China, or anywhere else will not fix the real problem.

    China being built up industrially at the expense of the USA is due first and foremost to the ruling class of the empire, the US empire. These are the families of the robber barons and control freak industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The people who made the company towns and tried to control every aspect of the lives of the employees. Those that despised Henry Ford for going to an 8 hour day, paying more, and ultimately rejecting the entire concept of the company running employees' lives. They probably weren't too happy with americans in general for rebelling against this sort of societal order either.

    The systems that ultimately failed in the USA are being reborn in China. They think they can pull it off. Ultimately it will fail. It cannot succeed. It is bound for failure sooner or later. The Chinese people will reject it just as americans did. If not through rebellion it will happen when someone like Henry Ford decides he can make more money by treating people better. Someone will do it. It _will_ happen. It may already be in process.

    Without the currency manipulations made in China wouldn't be cheap any longer. I think we all know of some of the players in that area.

    The minimum wage was developed as a tool of racism. The initial minimum wage laws in the USA were designed to price black laborers out of jobs. It's in the record of debate for the legislation. Minimum wage laws are about keeping people poor, keeping them dependent, keeping them from upward mobility by not letting them on to the first rung of the ladder.

    Abolish the minimum wage tomorrow and nobody would take a pay cut due to it. Nobody is employed for more than their employer feels they are worth without some other factor in play. What will happen is there will be a whole bunch more jobs that didn't exist before because what wasn't economically viable to hire someone would become economically viable.
    You have an interesting take on the labor market and the industrialists.

    Henry Ford was a true genius, and I guess that Ford was the first one to try and pay people more so that they could afford his product. I am not so sure that will happen in China since they are NOT a free country. Try speaking out against the government there and see how far that goes. You will get your can shot off. Someone who tried what Henry Ford did there would surely be imprisoned at best. That is why I have a difficult time with trade with unfree countries. It is NOT a level playing field.

    I am not so sure that dropping the minimum wage wouldn't just drop the bottom out of the labor market. What's to stop companies from trying to pay people 2.00 per hour? I agree that it would increase the number of jobs, but who would fill those jobs for less than $7.25 per hour? You can't live on that now as it is. Teenagers might fill those positions, but there are quite a number of people who subsist on that wage rate. On the other hand nationally, it only comprises 6-7 percent of workers. Not being an economist, I cannot forecast how that would take hold. Of course, most economists can't predict that either.

    Here are some tidbits about the minimum wage.


    http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htm


    From being firmly opposed to abolishing the minimum wage, I am now neutral. Repealing it may create more jobs, so it may be worth a try. I remain unconvinced by arguments against tariffs that would restrict cheap imports in to the United States, but removing the minimum wage might have some merit. I also think that removing the minimum wage should be accompanied by removing the social security tax on individuals making less than $10 per hour or gutting the system entirely for workers under 40.
    Last edited by swamprat; 11-30-2011 at 11:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentP View Post
    Buying made in the USA, China, or anywhere else will not fix the real problem.

    China being built up industrially at the expense of the USA is due first and foremost to the ruling class of the empire, the US empire. These are the families of the robber barons and control freak industrialists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The people who made the company towns and tried to control every aspect of the lives of the employees. Those that despised Henry Ford for going to an 8 hour day, paying more, and ultimately rejecting the entire concept of the company running employees' lives. They probably weren't too happy with americans in general for rebelling against this sort of societal order either.

    The systems that ultimately failed in the USA are being reborn in China. They think they can pull it off. Ultimately it will fail. It cannot succeed. It is bound for failure sooner or later. The Chinese people will reject it just as americans did. If not through rebellion it will happen when someone like Henry Ford decides he can make more money by treating people better. Someone will do it. It _will_ happen. It may already be in process.

    Without the currency manipulations made in China wouldn't be cheap any longer. I think we all know of some of the players in that area.

    The minimum wage was developed as a tool of racism. The initial minimum wage laws in the USA were designed to price black laborers out of jobs. It's in the record of debate for the legislation. Minimum wage laws are about keeping people poor, keeping them dependent, keeping them from upward mobility by not letting them on to the first rung of the ladder.

    Abolish the minimum wage tomorrow and nobody would take a pay cut due to it. Nobody is employed for more than their employer feels they are worth without some other factor in play. What will happen is there will be a whole bunch more jobs that didn't exist before because what wasn't economically viable to hire someone would become economically viable.
    Well said Brent and you are correct as a little bit of research into the history of minimum wage, labor economics and its affects on the labor market show.

  12. #12
    Senior Member BrentP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swamprat View Post
    You have an interesting take on the labor market and the industrialists.

    Henry Ford was a true genius, and I guess that Ford was the first one to try and pay people more so that they could afford his product. I am not so sure that will happen in China since they are NOT a free country. Try speaking out against the government there and see how far that goes. You will get your can shot off. Someone who tried what Henry Ford did there would surely be imprisoned at best. That is why I have a difficult time with trade with unfree countries. It is NOT a level playing field.

    I am not so sure that dropping the minimum wage wouldn't just drop the bottom out of the labor market. What's to stop companies from trying to pay people 2.00 per hour? I agree that it would increase the number of jobs, but who would fill those jobs for less than $7.25 per hour? You can't live on that now as it is. Teenagers might fill those positions, but there are quite a number of people who subsist on that wage rate. On the other hand nationally, it only comprises 6-7 percent of workers. Not being an economist, I cannot forecast how that would take hold. Of course, most economists can't predict that either.

    Here are some tidbits about the minimum wage.


    http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htm


    From being firmly opposed to abolishing the minimum wage, I am now neutral. Repealing it may create more jobs, so it may be worth a try. I remain unconvinced by arguments against tariffs that would restrict cheap imports in to the United States, but removing the minimum wage might have some merit. I also think that removing the minimum wage should be accompanied by removing the social security tax on individuals making less than $10 per hour or gutting the system entirely for workers under 40.
    You are not going to get the truth on the minimum wage from the government. What stops a company from dropping my wage to the minimum now? They can't find anyone to do my work cheaper that's why.

    The USA isn't a free country. Business wise it's actually more restrictive than China right now if what I've read is correct. In the late 19th and early 20th century killing workers in strikes, those who were organizers, etc and so on wasn't punished by the government. Today in China big foreign companies (that is US, european, etc) already pay more. Nobody has been shot to my knowledge.

    Henry Ford's motivation was productivity. Making more cars per unit dollar. Paying people more reduced turn over. 8 hour days allowed the plant to run 24hrs a day. It was about efficiency. He made more money due to this without a single employee buying a car from his company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentP View Post
    The USA isn't a free country. Business wise it's actually more restrictive than China right now if what I've read is correct. In the late 19th and early 20th century killing workers in strikes, those who were organizers, etc and so on wasn't punished by the government. Today in China big foreign companies (that is US, european, etc) already pay more. Nobody has been shot to my knowledge.

    Henry Ford's motivation was productivity. Making more cars per unit dollar. Paying people more reduced turn over. 8 hour days allowed the plant to run 24hrs a day. It was about efficiency. He made more money due to this without a single employee buying a car from his company.

    Some of my early mechanical training was taught by veterans of Henry's $5 day. By raising wages and dropping the price, he made it possible for his employees to afford his product. It continues today. Drive by a Ford plant and look at the parking lot. There will be a sign that says "foreign cars back around back". In Henry's time, the edges of the lot were reserved for Ford products so people driving or walking by only saw Ford cars.

    On the other hand, you weren't assured of $5 a day. You had to "make rate" and produce a required amount of product. Lots of employees didn't get it until much later.

    In China, everyone is the property of the STATE. The STATE is run by the Communist Party. There is no opposition. Remember Tien A Mien Square? When the Communists were threatened by freedom, they sent in the troops with APCs and tanks, and either shot or ran over the demonstrators. A business wanting to do business in China has to have a Chinese partner. There are slaves as in, they don't get paid and can't leave. You see on the news about the development of China but you don't see the grinding poverty in most of the country. If your village is in the way of a dam, buy a boat. Many villages were bulldozed for apartments, but the only people allowed there are members of the Party. Try heading over there with a camera. You WILL be asked why you are taking pictures. Maybe the asker is in uniform, maybe not. They are all the police.
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    Senior Member BrentP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    In China, everyone is the property of the STATE. The STATE is run by the Communist Party. There is no opposition. Remember Tien A Mien Square? When the Communists were threatened by freedom, they sent in the troops with APCs and tanks, and either shot or ran over the demonstrators. A business wanting to do business in China has to have a Chinese partner. There are slaves as in, they don't get paid and can't leave. You see on the news about the development of China but you don't see the grinding poverty in most of the country. If your village is in the way of a dam, buy a boat. Many villages were bulldozed for apartments, but the only people allowed there are members of the Party. Try heading over there with a camera. You WILL be asked why you are taking pictures. Maybe the asker is in uniform, maybe not. They are all the police.
    Those in the governments of the USA and whatever state each of us is in consider us their property too. Very few if any governments do not consider the people under their rule to be their property.

    All the things you complain about either once happened in the USA or happening today or both. Ask the people of New London who's homes were bulldozed for the benefit a corporation that bought the local government. Post patriot act USA is full of people being hassled for photography.

    China is the model for the world. It's where the control freak bankster rulers are exercising many of the things that didn't quite stick in the USA or are just plain taking them too long.
    Last edited by BrentP; 12-03-2011 at 02:05 AM.

  15. #15
    Ridin Dirty dom's Avatar
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    Did ya'll know there is an 'Eric' in 'America'?

    AmERICa!

    How weird is that!

    "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato "
    -Mussolini
    All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentP View Post
    You are not going to get the truth on the minimum wage from the government. What stops a company from dropping my wage to the minimum now? They can't find anyone to do my work cheaper that's why.

    The USA isn't a free country. Business wise it's actually more restrictive than China right now if what I've read is correct. In the late 19th and early 20th century killing workers in strikes, those who were organizers, etc and so on wasn't punished by the government. Today in China big foreign companies (that is US, european, etc) already pay more. Nobody has been shot to my knowledge.

    Henry Ford's motivation was productivity. Making more cars per unit dollar. Paying people more reduced turn over. 8 hour days allowed the plant to run 24hrs a day. It was about efficiency. He made more money due to this without a single employee buying a car from his company.

    He made a car that was affordable to a much greater segment of the population. His factories hummed along because of it. Productivity, with a happier workforce, reduced turnover, and passing along those cost reductions enabled Ford to dominate.

    He did recognize the human element, which is what these cracker jack CEOs today enjoy forgetting. All they do is steal millions from their companies and then oppress people around the globe, sometimes directly, sometimes more subtly.

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