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Thread: Using very cheap parts . . . .

  1. #1
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Using very cheap parts . . . .

    Last week while in Reno, after being parked on the street for a few hours, my 1997 Sebring Convertible (JX, 2.5L) would crank (fast enough to make me think it was the timing belt at first) but would not start. I had it towed to my Reno home.

    Timing belt was fine. It cranks fast only because it has a good new battery, not low compression.

    The engine has no spark. I expect the CPS (Crank Position Sensor) or distributor to be the problem. Both are in a very difficult area to troubleshoot and work on. I removed much stuff to make it easier, including the upper intake manifold. I removed the distributor. But no obvious problems found inside during a cold test.

    Since both these items are rather cheap, I ordered a new cheap distributor and CPS (from E-BAY, about $100.00 total for both items) and didn't even do any real troubleshooting other than check for positive primary voltage on the ignition coil primary for the few seconds before the ASD (Automatic Shut Down) relay opens when I attempt to start. That voltage was fine for the few seconds, before automatic shutdown. The only other thing I did was to troubleshoot the guts of the distributor by some cold testing. It is possible that the transistor that triggers the ignition coil has a high resistance short, but I have not yet removed it for an accurate test. Also, the internal HV cap resistor should measure 5K ohms, but it measures 8K ohms. But I doubt that makes any real difference in reality.


    It seems very difficult to work in this area of the vehicle (FWD with distributor mounted on the left side of the engine), so I am going to replace the CPS and distributor and solder a new wire to the ignition coil primary negative for testing now (in case it still won't start) and for future use to make troubleshooting a bit easier if any problems in the future.

    I will start the real troubleshooting if necessary, if the car still has no spark after replacing both these items.

    I am going to test for spark into
    six adjustable spark length ignition testers and be sure I have good spark on all six before I put the rest of the car back together. Many items had to be removed to get to the area of the CPS and distributor. I ain't going to put it back together before I am 100% sure I have good spark on all six during cranking (ASD should not activate while cranking).

    I won't be back in Reno until the night of May 15 and I will work on it then.

    I bought all cheap parts. I noticed a LARGE difference in prices for the new distributor. More than a thousand bucks from the dealer. $200.00 for a rebuilt one from an auto parts shop. Or a brand new (no name) one from E-Bay made in China or wherever. But it surprising looks very well built, inside and out. No name, no paperwork or anything. I have both parts (distributor and CPS) already and am ready to see what happens this coming Wednesday night.

    Has anybody here had bad experiences with new cheap after market ignition parts? With new expensive car parts? With any new part?

    Many years ago, during my very first water pump change (1971 Chevy Malibu) the new one leaked ten times worse than the one I took out. At first, I was thinking I did something wrong. It would have to be the first time I did any real work on a car. I got a second one, spent hours changing it, but the second one worked perfectly and I've been working on my own cars ever since.

    How much of a gamble is it to use new cheap parts? I have wondered if the only difference is the name added to the part, at least in some cases.

    -Don- SF, CA

  2. #2
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    The only time I use parts from a dealer is when they aren't available elsewhere. I prefer to buy from a local store rather than E-bay simply because you can take it back to the store for another one. E-bay, well, only if it isn't available elsewhere. You'll find a lot of parts at the parts store are from Mexicao, India or China. Look for the longer warranty. That will tell you how much they trust the part. 3 months or limited lifetime usually aren't that much apart.
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    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Usually with electrical parts, not even stores allow returns. Besides that, think about the CPS. New ones come with a cardboard spacer that gets removed by the engine cranking. Now it's an obviously used part. Who's going to take it back?

    BTW, I do NOT want them to take back electrical parts. I might get stuck with the one somebody else blew out! I know from experience that many returned items to parts shops go right back into their own stock for resale. I think it's fairly safe to assume new parts work these days. I can remember in the old days of points, however, where an occasional new condenser would not work, so I realize it can happen, but not often. IAC, I prefer to take my chances with new parts being bad and if that happens, I will just buy another, if I cannot take it back. IOW, it might be even more wise to use cheap parts if they cannot be returned.

    How often does a new electrical item not work? I would think it's rare compared to the amount that they are destroyed by the buyer who did something wrong or let something else that was unchecked blow it out.

    I never worried much about warranties. I figure if an electrical item lasts at least 100 miles (over an hour of driving), it's likely to last at least 100,000 miles.

    Anyway, I should have my Sebring running B4 next week. I won't be able to start working on it until late Wednesday night. I will post here then if it works or not. If it does work and ever later fails, I will post here again about how long my $45.00 new ( & complete with coil and such) distributor lasted that costs more than a thousand bucks from the dealer.

    I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that this new $40.00 distributor is they same one at the dealers, but with a few stamps and such added. When I get to Reno, I will make a better side by side comparison to the OEM part.

    -Don-


  4. #4
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    The prohibition on electrical returns is partially because of someone breaking it putting it on like you mentioned. The main reason is so people don't replace a part at a time to find the problem. I ran a salvage yard back in the early 80's and that's why we didn't allow returns on electrical parts,
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  5. #5
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    The prohibition on electrical returns is partially because of someone breaking it
    putting it on like you mentioned. The main reason is so people don't replace a part at a time to find the problem. I ran a salvage yard back in the early 80's and that's why we didn't allow returns on electrical parts,
    OIC. I never thought about that. But if it were me, I would just have some spare parts. Might be handy if the problem ever returns.

    I am now at my other home in Reno and I have the 97 Sebring Convertible running like new. It seems to have more power than before, but perhaps that could be my imagination or excitement that I now have it all fixed. I think you probably know what I mean, since you too work on your own vehicles. OTOH, perhaps it really does run better. Sure seems like it. I already put around 100 miles on the car after the repair.

    After I replaced the distributor and CPS (Crank Position Sensor) I checked for spark with six spark length testers. After I saw six long powerful looking sparks when cranking, I put the rest of the car back together. I used six because I didn't want the car to start by using the plugs, I didn't want to remove the plugs or find new ones and I wanted the normal load on the new coil. I know I could check for spark with just one of these testers. But I have around ten of them around the garage here, so I used six.

    I double checked the old distributor and discovered the transistor inside it to trigger the coil had a collector to emitter short, which is kinda rare when it checks good between base and the collector and base and the emitter. So that's why the distributor crapped out, perhaps from the back currents from the starter on the old transistor. When I first had the problem, the engine started for about two seconds or less and before I even went from "start" to "ignition" the engine died and would crank but never gave the slightest indication of restarting. I proved I had no spark before having the car towed home. But at first, I was expecting a timing belt, (because it seemed to crank fast) even though it only has around 20,000 miles on the belt. But when I took the timing belt cover off when I got home, it was fine. It was just that new battery that's no more than a month old that made it crank so fast and long without discharging enough to notice.

    When I compare the OEM distributor (more than a thousand bucks) to the new cheap part (around $50.00 bucks on E-Bay ) I cannot notice any differences at all other than stamping and labeling. My new distributor has no company name or anything. No part number on it. Not even where it's made. Pure generic and I believe it's the exact same NEW one as at the dealer. I think there are labels and many stamps and middlemen dealing with this stuff by the time it is sold at the dealer. And the rebuilt ones from auto part stores cost around $200.00 (with your core as an exchange), but my $50.00 one is sold as "new". No paperwork or anything comes with it. It's just alone in a box that says nothing but addresses and such. No clues of where the part really came from. But I believe it's the exact same part and sure give a great long spark as shown on the spark length testers.

    Removing the CPS (Crank Position Sensor) was a hassle. It was in there very tight. But the non-OEM replacement would not even fit. I took some sandpaper and sanded down the plastic of the new CPS and then it fit perfectly. It only took a few seconds of sanding to make it fit. Have you ever ran into that problem?

    BTW, I did some cold testing on the old CPS. I believe it's good. There must be some electronics in there.

    The three connections to the connector of the CPS check exactly like a good NPN transistor would, with the center being the base. Conducts only in one direction from the "base" (center pin) to the collector and emitter (either end connection). I only replaced the CPS because it's just a few inches below the distributor and a lot of work to get to. If the new non-stock cheap part will last as long as the old one would have is anybody's guess. But again, the new part looks exactly like the OEM. I cannot tell the difference in any way and I expect it really is the same generic part. Perhaps I would have had the same problem with a new OEM CPS of it not quite fitting. As I mentioned the old one was difficult to remove, but the hole for it looked clean from the best I could tell.

    The only reason I replaced the CPS is because it's just below the distributor and a big hassle to get to.

    I am not sure if it was the right thing to do after finding the problem in the distributor.

    -Don- Reno, NV
    Last edited by DonTom; 06-12-2013 at 09:08 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    Just as sure as you DIDN'T replace it, it would have failed down the road a bit. It's like swapping an engine. Just because the transmission hasn't been leaking, go ahead and replace the front seal as sometimes they start to leak with the jiggling. It's several hours of aggravation for a $20 part.

    Keep in mind that a new car dealership doesn't really make much money on new car sales. They make a little more money per unit on used cars as the dealership owns those. Where they really rake the cash in is in parts and service. That $1000 part may have run the dealership around $200.

    As for the tight fit, that's by design. Myself, I would have probably cleaned the hole with a small sanding drum on a Dremel mototool. It probably had some dirt and grime making it tight. As it is, it looks like you traced and troubleshot the problem. I have no doubt the car is running better and possibly getting better fuel mleage. The short in the distributor was probably causing a weak sprk for the last several thousand miles. A slight misfire every now and then will slurp the fuel and dog the engine down.

    it probably drives like a reasonably new car now, doesn't it?
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    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    Just as sure as you DIDN'T replace it, it would have failed down the road a bit.
    I just don't know how rare it is for a CPS to fail. I don't recall ever hearing of one failing.
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    As for the tight fit, that's by design. Myself, I would have probably cleaned the hole with a small sanding drum on a Dremel mototool.
    Not possible in this car. There's only a couple of inches of clearance in this FWD car. The distributor and CPS is mounted on the side of the 2.5L Mitsubishi engine and half the car has to be torn apart to work in that area. The CPS is near the bottom of the engine. They tell me to use a 1/4" torque wrench with a long extension. I gave up trying but I was able to tighten the CPS bolt using a quarter inch socket wrench that can bend in all directions, while I held it in with the spacer touching the wheel or whatever inside the transaxle (camshaft output). I probably tightened it too tight, or more than the recommended torque. I could get a small finger in the CPS hole, and it seemed clean from the best I could tell, but I assume something must be making it tight such as a little melted plastic from the old CPS. BTW, I read threads here on the web where some have had the CPS break inside the engine while trying to remove it and they were asking what they could do about it. I guess the engine then has to be removed.
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    I have no doubt the car is running better and possibly getting better fuel mleage. The short in the distributor was probably causing a weak sprk for the last several thousand miles. A slight misfire every now and then will slurp the fuel and dog the engine down.
    If there really is a hotter spark, it won't be because of the transistor in the distributor. They either work or don't work. They trigger the coil, either it triggers or doesn't and if it doesn't,with proper input on the base, it's unlikely to ever work again. However, the coil was replaced as it was part of the distributor and that can make a big difference in the spark. The old coil had 170,000 miles on it and was the original from 1997. So if the car really has more power (and I think it does) it must be the better spark from the new ignition coil. Another possibility is that the old ignition coil had so many shorted coil winds that it greatly increased the load to the transistor that triggers it and finally couldn't take the load and it blew out. Perhaps it's a good thing that both the coil and transistor is in the distributor and normally replaced together. However, it is possible and fairly simple to only replace the ignition coil in this distributor. But I paid less for my complete distributor than I would for the ignition coil alone as they come from different sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    it probably drives like a reasonably new car now, doesn't it?
    Yep. But it always got great MPG, so there's probably not much room for improvement there.

    BTW, my cheap parts came with a 30 day warranty. I don't really agree with you about the warranties. I think one reason prices are higher is simply because the warranty is longer, not because the part is made any better than a shorter warranty, at least in many cases (certainly not all).

    BTW, I like the way it's done in some other countries. NOTHING has a warranty. You check it out in the store and make sure it works and as soon as you pay for it, you're stuck with it with no returns or warranty. Here in the USA, too many returns on too many items and I think the warranties and returns just jack up the prices.

    -Don- SSF, CA

    Last edited by DonTom; 05-19-2013 at 04:13 AM. Reason: spelling error.

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    Amazon, surprisingly, is a good source for parts. I've bought a clutch, radiator, radiator fan, and lots of other smaller parts for the PT Cruiser I drive now. The clutch came from a Chrysler dealer in Kernersville, NC who was liquidating a lot of parts on Amazon. The radiator fan was Dorman, and was less than half the price our local dealer wanted.

  9. #9
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    Don, I've replaced a few CPS units through the years. They are often misdiagnosed as they don't set a code. They just don't tell the computer to fire the ignition. You're right in that they don't fail very often. It's like a coil, failure is rare but a real nuisance when it happens.
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    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed View Post
    Amazon, surprisingly, is a good source for parts. I've bought a clutch, radiator, radiator fan, and lots of other smaller parts for the PT Cruiser I drive now. The clutch came from a Chrysler dealer in Kernersville, NC who was liquidating a lot of parts on Amazon. The radiator fan was Dorman, and was less than half the price our local dealer wanted.
    I now have a new problem with the same car (97 Sebring convertible, 2.5L V6). It started running rough about a week after I worked on it. Got an OBD2 code of PO304 (misfire on cylinder number four). It's now running on five cylinders. Spark on number four is very good and strong. So then I cut some insulation off the number four injector and see the normal voltage on the hot side, but NOT going low on the low side. IOW, #4 cylinder is not being triggered by the PCM (Power Control Module). I didn't get a chance to check more before coming back here to the SF Bay area (the Sebring is at my Reno home).

    I checked the books here and I now have the entire path traced out on paper. Perhaps just a simple problem such as the PCM connector needing cleaning. Or perhaps the output circuit for the # 4 injector is NFG in the PCM. At least this stiff is in the clear and easy to get to. I should have it all figured out this week if we decide to go back to Reno on late June 5.

    EDIT:

    I didn't make it to Reno. Decided not to go since it was over 100F there and nice and cool here in the SSF area. Will go there this Wednesday and then will report why injector #4 is not getting the signal to operate from the PCM.

    -Don- SF, CA

    Last edited by DonTom; 06-08-2013 at 06:47 AM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Okay, I have been in Reno all week and spent hours on the car for my P0304 code. It was very tricky. So tricky, I will give the facts here and see if anybody can figure it out. One hint. I have to buy something to fix it, so it's not fixed yet, as I just discovered the problem a few hours ago, but I am 99.9 percent sure I found it. I will let you know the results after I buy the cheap part.

    Problem:

    Sebring 2.5L, V6, JX convertible. OBD2 code of P0304 comes on every 20 miles or so. That means cylinder four misfire. The lack of power is obvious and vibrates just like running on five instead of six cylinders.

    Here's what I have done:

    Checked for spark at #4 with a spark length tester at the end of the spark plug wire. Very good hot spark and just like the other five.

    Used a noid light. Light shows good #4 injector voltage flashing, exactly like the other five.

    I took out the injector from 4 and swapped with number six.

    I took out the spark plug from number four and swapped with number six.

    20 miles later, same code for cylinder number four (not six).

    Checked compression, 160 PSI just like all the other five.

    So then I check other things, such as fuel pressure. 55 psi. spec is 49. So that's okay.

    Checked for timing belt slippage, that's okay.

    So what would you do next?

    One more hint:

    The problem really was on cylinder number four, just like the computer said.

    Very tricky, but simple. What would you check next?

    -Don- Reno, NV

  12. #12
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Hm, don't know the engine at all, Don but, from your description it seems the faults is directly related to cyl #4. As it is consistently recurring ariound the 20 mile mark it could be temperature/pressure related so my first guess, assuming the tests you carried out were done on a cold/cool engine, is the cylinder head gasket. This would be a fairly cheap replacement part - $25/$35 ? Second guess(es) - spark plug cap/ignition lead/distributor cap all of which can work OK when cold but fail at high temperature/max stress.


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  13. #13
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Hm, don't know the engine at all,
    It's a Mitsubishi 2.5L V6. It has the spark plugs down deep in the engine. They are inserted down into the valve covers, deep into a spark plug well. Takes an extra deep spark plug wrench to get the plus in and out.

    The car is now all fixed and what a difference in performance. Wow! It now seems to have more guts than most V8's.

    What was happening is that it was sparking through the hard rubber insulation on the number four spark plug connector boot while inside the engine where it cannot be seen. So when I do a spark length test outside of the engine, it looks like the very powerful spark which it is. But when the spark plug wire is put back into the engine, it sparks to the spark plug well wall and shorts out the spark on number four, where it cannot be seen. These wires are not that old, changed just last year, so I didn't expect such a problem.

    The way I discovered the problem was to use the adjustable spark length tester set for a normal spark length. Then holding the grounded side so I don't get zapped, I laid the hard rubber insulation for the plug cap (around five inches long) just above the engine and watched it spark through the insulation as much as to the spark length tester. Inside the engine, it would be even closer to metal than I had it, so it would spark even more. I knew then I found the problem.

    BTW, I think this problem is related to the repair I did. Those new but cheap ignition parts have such a powerful spark that it went right through the plastic on the insulation on number four. I would be much less likely to have such a problem with less high voltage.

    From now on, there is one place I will NOT use cheap parts. The wires. The new six spark plug wire set cost me $70.01 at Napa Auto Parts. NapaBelden 700921 --7 MM wires. Very good high quality wires. I can tell by looking at them. These are guaranteed for life. I don't remember how much the wires cost me last year, but I doubt I paid that much for them.



    -Don- Reno, NV

  14. #14
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Yay! - looks like my second guess was right on the money.

    Ken.
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    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    I've seen many a problem with inferior plug wire insulation. It looks really creepy at night when St. Elmo's Fire is blowing along the plug wires. I'll bet if you had opened the hood at night with no lights, you'd have seen the secondary ignition pulses glowing and moving along the wires. I generally use Bosche wires myself. Not the cheapest but they haven't ever given me trouble.
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    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grouch View Post
    I've seen many a problem with inferior plug wire insulation. It looks really creepy at night when St. Elmo's Fire is blowing along the plug wires. I'll bet if you had opened the hood at night with no lights, you'd have seen the secondary ignition pulses glowing and moving along the wires. I generally use Bosche wires myself. Not the cheapest but they haven't ever given me trouble.
    No, in this car you won't see a thing at night. It was only sparking a foot below the valve cover, covered by the plug wire cap in the hole, where it cannot be seen in normal operation no matter how you try. This is not your typical engine where you can see spark plugs. It wasn't the wire that sparked, but the hard plastic thingie that goes over the spark plug, which is down deep in a covered hole with cannot be uncovered without removing the problem at the same time. That's what made this problem so tricky.

    BTW, I opened the box of new wires on the trunk of the car. I found the number four wire size and installed it. I forgot that I left the other five new wires on the trunk. I went for a test drive. I discovered the box, but no wires in front of this house. So I drove the same path again and found the other five wires on the freeway, damaged, ran over by countless cars. But at least I have the one wire I needed the most installed.

    There goes my lifetime guaranteed new wires in five minutes! The other old five wires installed in the engine seem to be holding up fine. By "old", I mean less than a year old.

    -Don- Reno, NV

  17. #17
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    Yay! - looks like my second guess was right on the money.

    Ken.
    Not quite, because it had nothing to do with temperature. It failed when ice cold as well as hot.

    But since you're a good guy, I will let you have that one anyway.

    BTW, my analog voltmeter simply wasn't fast enough to see the injectors go off and on. I was getting a steady high reading. The noid light showed me that a voltmeter cannot be used there. I would have seen it if I used my small portable oscilloscope instead of a voltmeter, under the normal load of the injector. BTW, this engine is so weird that I can easily get to the front injectors, they are in the clear, unlike the spark plugs.

    -Don- Reno, NV

  18. #18
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom View Post
    Not quite, because it had nothing to do with temperature. It failed when ice cold as well as hot.

    But since you're a good guy, I will let you have that one anyway.


    I thank you kind sir and bend a knee in your direction as a gentleman.

    I made the temperature assumption as, I think, you said the fault appeared after 20 miles.

    Glad you got it sorted, pity about the other five leads though - bet you won't make that mistake again!

    I don't know what Grouch thinks but I would suggest biting the bullet and replacing all leads - even at the expense of a new set, you will even have a spare left over. My feeling is that if one has failed the others won't be all that far behind. And, according to S*d's law, if they are going to fail it will be at the most awkward time (pouring rain, thunder and lightning) in the most difficult place (two hundred miles from the nearest service station).

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  19. #19
    Senior Member DonTom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken View Post
    I thank you kind sir and bend a knee in your direction as a gentleman.

    I made the temperature assumption as, I think, you said the fault appeared after 20 miles.

    Glad you got it sorted, pity about the other five leads though - bet you won't make that mistake again!

    I don't know what Grouch thinks but I would suggest biting the bullet and replacing all leads - even at the expense of a new set, you will even have a spare left over. My feeling is that if one has failed the others won't be all that far behind. And, according to S*d's law, if they are going to fail it will be at the most awkward time (pouring rain, thunder and lightning) in the most difficult place (two hundred miles from the nearest service station).

    Ken.
    With many OBD2 codes, they do NOT appear until after many miles of having the problem. For an example, if I take the wire and plug #4 out completely, it will still go for perhaps as much as 20 miles before a check engine light comes on. But my OBD2 reader can read pending codes that have not yet activated the check engine light. I think OBD2 does this to prevent faulsing and also to give time for testing without activating the light.

    If there is a check engine light because of a problem and the problem goes away it still might not turn out the light. It depends on the OBD2 code number. But a pending code will clear in time if the problem is gone. I have several factory manuals where some explain every single code possible for that vehicle. That's a lot of pages just for OBD2 codes.

    IOW, even if there is no check-engine light on, many OBD2 readers can still read a pending code. So it's best to check on a better code reader even if the check engine light is not lit.

    I will buy a new set of wires. I will keep them with the vehicle, but I won't replace them until I have a reason to again take off the upper intake manifold. Number 4 is well in the clear and goes the the easiest terminal to get to on the distributor. The distributor is buried low and mounted to the side of the engine. Many items have to be removed to get to cylinders 1,3,5 (bank one). Bank two (2,4,6) is in the clear. To get the upper intake manifold off, there are many hoses and connectors as well as the throttle bracket to remove and much more. All this must be done to get to anything on bank one, including doing a spark plug and/or wire change.

    -Don- Reno, NV

  20. #20
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom View Post
    With many OBD2 codes, they do NOT appear until after many miles of having the problem. For an example, if I take the wire and plug #4 out completely, it will still go for perhaps as much as 20 miles before a check engine light comes on. But my OBD2 reader can read pending codes that have not yet activated the check engine light. I think OBD2 does this to prevent faulsing and also to give time for testing without activating the light.

    If there is a check engine light because of a problem and the problem goes away it still might not turn out the light. It depends on the OBD2 code number. But a pending code will clear in time if the problem is gone. I have several factory manuals where some explain every single code possible for that vehicle. That's a lot of pages just for OBD2 codes.

    IOW, even if there is no check-engine light on, many OBD2 readers can still read a pending code. So it's best to check on a better code reader even if the check engine light is not lit.


    Thanks for the clarification, Don. I've never had occasion to even think about On Board Diagnostics (Toyotas are sooooo reliable). Have to see how my new Mazda gets on.

    I will buy a new set of wires. I will keep them with the vehicle, but I won't replace them until I have a reason to again take off the upper intake manifold. ......... (snipped) ............ Many items have to be removed to get to cylinders 1,3,5 (bank one). Bank two (2,4,6) is in the clear. To get the upper intake manifold off, there are many hoses and connectors as well as the throttle bracket to remove and much more. All this must be done to get to anything on bank one, including doing a spark plug and/or wire change.
    I seem to remember back in the day that Colin Chapman, of Lotus fame, said that the basic tenet of good engineering was to add lightness and simplify - whatever happened to his words of wisdom?

    Ken.
    Last edited by Ken; 06-19-2013 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Typo.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

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