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Thread: This god business

  1. #1
    brackman65
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    This god business

    Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

    Proving a Universal Negative

    It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

    I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

    Defining YHWH

    Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

    God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.


    One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

    Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

    What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

    Perfection Begets Imperfection

    But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

    What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

    The Freewill Argument

    The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

    Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

    Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

    Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

    The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

    All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

    God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

    Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

    God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

    Belief More Important Than Action

    Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

    Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

    The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

    No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.


    Contradictory Justice


    One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.


    Contradictory History


    The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

    Unfulfilled Prophecy

    The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

    The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.


    The Omniscient Changes the Future

    A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.


    The Omniscient is Surprised

    A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

    We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.



  2. #2
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: This god business

    Hi Brak,

    Very interesting and thoughtful post... (though not about cars!)

    Welcome on board, by the way!

  3. #3
    brackman65
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    Re: This god business

    You are welcome! I read some of the posts on this BBS and thought it was worth returning fire.

  4. #4
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    Re: This god business

    'This god business' is exactly that and very very good money maker.


  5. #5
    gail
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    Re: This god business

    Hey, you do a pretty good job at whistling "Dixie".

    Not all Christians believe that God is either ubiquitous or an invisible God. As an example, you can not see me, yet I am not visible. While I come to the forum often, I am not ubiquitous. There are some people on this forum who have actually seen me, would you say that they had no proof that I exist?

    There have been those thwho have seen both Heavenly Father and his son Jesus at the same time. And you want to --- what? --- say that they are mistaken, or hallucinating, or worse, liars?

    My Church teaches that Heavenly Father is an exalted, perfected, and glorified Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones.

    22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 130:22)

    We believe that He is the Supreme Being and the literal Parent of everyone. Just like we believe that George W. Bush is the one and only residing president of the United States of American. Heavenly Father is the only reigning God in the Kingdom.

    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    (New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

    We are all children, including Jesus, His children in the pre-existence.

    21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
    22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
    23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:21 - 23)

    Quote Originally Posted by brackman65
    Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

    Proving a Universal Negative

    It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

    I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

    Defining YHWH

    Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

    God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.


    One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

    Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

    What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

    Perfection Begets Imperfection

    But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

    What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

    The Freewill Argument

    The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

    Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

    Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

    Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

    The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

    All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

    God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

    Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

    God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

    Belief More Important Than Action

    Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

    Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

    The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

    No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.


    Contradictory Justice


    One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.


    Contradictory History


    The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

    Unfulfilled Prophecy

    The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

    The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.


    The Omniscient Changes the Future

    A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.


    The Omniscient is Surprised

    A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

    We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.


    Long winded too. I have have to read this several times to really understand the fallacies of what you have written.

    7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    (Old Testament | Proverbs 1:7)

  6. #6
    gail
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    Re: This god business

    <>

    I had meant to say invisible. Sorry about that. See the very best of us are fallible.

  7. #7
    ColleenC1
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    Re: This god business

    There is so much circular reasoning and misrepresentation is the presentation of your arguments it will take a long time to go through all that you have espoused. And since this is the Christmas Holiday, I may get back to it after the New Year

  8. #8
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: This god business

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    'This god business' is exactly that and very very good money maker.

    Amen!

    It's also immensely destructive in the way it negates critical thought and encourages blind obedience and irrationality. It feeds on people's poor self-image, their existential angst - and magnifies both to enhance its control....

  9. #9
    brackman65
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    Re: This god business

    Quote Originally Posted by ColleenC1
    There is so much circular reasoning and misrepresentation is the presentation of your arguments it will take a long time to go through all that you have espoused. And since this is the Christmas Holiday, I may get back to it after the New Year
    I'd love for you to back that up - if you can. But I am confident you won't be able to.

  10. #10
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: This god business

    "Not all Christians believe that God is either ubiquitous or an invisible God. As an example, you can not see me, yet I am not visible. While I come to the forum often, I am not ubiquitous. There are some people on this forum who have actually seen me, would you say that they had no proof that I exist?"

    That's a weak analogy, Gail. Unlike the Christian God, whom no one has ever seen (verifiably seen, that is - the claims made in religious books don't constitute proof anymore than the claims made by lunatics in ayslums that they've been visited by the ghost of Elvis constitute proof, etc.) not only have myriad people seen you, it is completely possible for anyone to see you and confirm the reality of your existence. There is no "faith" involved.

    "There have been those thwho have seen both Heavenly Father and his son Jesus at the same time. And you want to --- what? --- say that they are mistaken, or hallucinating, or worse, liars? "

    Absent proof, yes. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And all you've got is people's claims - and the assertions made in religious texts. Not good enough.

    "My Church teaches that Heavenly Father is an exalted, perfected, and glorified Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones. "

    That's rather bizarre - as well as highly implausible. And again, a claim made with nothing more to back it up than some strange gibberish in a religious text.

    "We believe that He is the Supreme Being and the literal Parent of everyone. Just like we believe that George W. Bush is the one and only residing president of the United States of American. Heavenly Father is the only reigning God in the Kingdom."

    Sounds like the Moonies. They also believe their leader is their literal "father" - and call him (and his wife) the "true parents."

    "We are all children, including Jesus, His children in the pre-existence."

    Then you do not accept the monotheism of Christianity and embrace some sort of polytheism. It's unintelligible to speak of a monotheistic "god" who also has a "son."

    " Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny."

    It's rather insane to accept at face value the outrageous, illogical and downright silly claims made by Christianity. Perhaps there is a spiritual component to existence; but that is a separate matter. Much of what's in the bible and (the doctrines of Christianity ) is so implausible that to accept it as face values requires suspension of disbelief and critical faculties.

    To believe it is "perfect" and "divinely inspired" is madness.




  11. #11
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    Re: This god business

    Quote Originally Posted by AP Wire Service
    AP Poll shows an overwhelming 86% of Americans believed in Santa as a child; 81% currently believe in existence of angels
    It seems we are going to be fighting this battle for sometime!

  12. #12
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: This god business

    Quote Originally Posted by dBrong
    Quote Originally Posted by AP Wire Service
    AP Poll shows an overwhelming 86% of Americans believed in Santa as a child; 81% currently believe in existence of angels
    It seems we are going to be fighting this battle for sometime!

    The two above mentioned items are clearly related. Teach children to believe in nonsense like Santa and getting them to believe in angels is no great leap...

  13. #13
    TC
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    Re: This god business

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by dBrong
    Quote Originally Posted by AP Wire Service
    AP Poll shows an overwhelming 86% of Americans believed in Santa as a child; 81% currently believe in existence of angels
    It seems we are going to be fighting this battle for sometime!

    The two above mentioned items are clearly related. Teach children to believe in nonsense like Santa and getting them to believe in angels is no great leap...
    It seems the American public is equally stupid when it comes to politics.
    They insist mostly on electing the same senators and congressmen time and time again.

  14. #14
    ColleenC1
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    Re: This god business

    Defining YHWH

    Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it.

    First of all you have defined nothing:

    YHWY or Yawhew also Jehovah means Lord Almighty. But the Christian or more precisely the Biblical/Hebrew have ascribed the following words to God: "El Olam" meaning Eternal God..."Elohim" meaning God... "El Elyon" meaning Most High..."El Shaddai" meaning God Almighty..."Adonai" meaning Lord..."Yahweh Sabaoth" meaning Lord Almighty.

    Just so that there is no confusion as to the English translation:
    Eternal God=always was in existence
    God=monotheistic "Only one"
    Most High=Above any other
    God Almighty=Judgement Reigns Supreme (without explanations)
    Lord=Compassionate or Just (also translated with Fairness)
    Lord Almighty= Judgement with Compassion (with explanation )
    God has many attributes the "universally accepted" Biblical/Hebrew attributes are: omniscience, omnipotent and omnipresent meaning "All Knowing, All Powerful, and All present"

    Although this is in no way an exhaustion of the explanation of the words the one thing that is true is that "man" in his finite mind cannot express ideas about God in anything but anthropomorphisms. chapter 1 of Genesis expresses God in such equally anthropomorphic terms as, 'called,' 'saw,' 'blessed,' 'deliberated" (verse 26) 'let us make'), God 'worked' for six days then He 'rested.' E. J. Young illustrates this: "The anthropomorphic God of Genesis 2 'fashions,' 'breathes,' 'plants,' 'places,' 'takes,' 'sets,' 'brings,' 'closes up,' 'builds,' 'walks.'

    The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness.

    No where in the Talmud or the Bible is God ever referred to as "omnibenevolent" nor that he created humans to enable them to experience love and happiness

    In fact the Talmud and the Bible describe God as a "Jealous God" he wants His own to Himself and in the New Testatments it is stated the a person cannot "serve two masters" either God or Man. This is not an omnibenevolent God.

    Your explanation of God creating man is ignorant (without knowledge) and simplistic. It appears that you are going on what someone has told you vs. doing any real indepth study.

    The Repetition of Accounts and Alleged Contradictions

    The First Principles of Knowledge: First principles are the basis for all the conclusions drawn in any area of knowledge, whether in sience or philosophy. The philosopher Aristotle noted how evidence relies on first principles. He said that "demonstratio must be based on premises prior to and better known than the conclusion." (Analytical Posterioria, In the Student's Oxford Aristotle, ed. by W.D. Ross. London Oxford, 1942
    "For it is impossible that there should be demonstration of absolutely everything (there would be an infinite regress, so that there would still be no demonstration)". (Aristotle. Metaphysics. In Great Books of the Western World. Ed. by Robert Maynard Hutchins. Chicago: William Benton, 1952

    Thought to be continued, I have to go


  15. #15
    ColleenC1
    Guest

    Re: This god business

    Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it.

    I am backing up a little bit on my last paragraph, Brackman65 states the above but I espouse before we can discuss the existence of "a thing" we must look at the" First Principles of Knowledge" for we have the area of being (ontology) and the area of knowing (epistemology) which we define "Do we know?" not "How do we know."

    This is an important distinction, because most modern philosophies that deny that we can know reality and ultimately truth, make the mistake of contructiong epistemological systems to explain how we know reality without first acknowledging the fact that we do know reality. After they begin within the mind and find they can't construct a bridge to reality, then they declare we can't know reality. It is like drawing a faulty road map before looking at the roads, ten declaring that we can't know how to get from Chicago to New York.

    And that my friend is exactly what you have done.

    It seems like I am going to have to type in increments because I need to go and attend to a few things

  16. #16
    ColleenC1
    Guest

    Re: This god business

    Back to the "First Principles of Knowledge". First Principles of Knowledge are the Self-evident Basis of All Knowledge

    Self-evident means that they do not need to be proven. They show themselves to be true. Thus, first principles do not need to be deduced from other principles, and they become the basis of knowledge. Thomas Aquinas states that there must be a beginning point of demonstration: "if there were an infinite regress in demonstrations, demonstration would be impossible, because the conclusion of any demonstration is made certain by reducing it to the first principle of demonstration." (Aquinas, Commentary on the Metaphysics of Aristotle, Trans.by John P. Rowan, Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1961 p.224)

    Aquinas says knowledge must be based on something we are certain of: "Perfect knowledge requires certitude, and this is why we cannot be said to know unless we know what cannot be otherwise." (Aquinas, Peri Hermeneias ,1.8)

    George Mavrodes argues that first principles are more basic than argumentation. He concludes that "if there is any knowledge at all then there must be some source of knowledge other than argumentation (Mavrodes, Belief in God, A Study in Epistemology of Religion. New York: Random House, 1970, p.49)

    C.S. Lewis agrees that "these first principles of Pratical Reason are fundamental to all knowledge and argument. To deny them is to deny knowledge itself; it is no use trying to see through first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same thing as not to see." (Lewis,The Abolition of Man. New York:Collier, 1947 p.87)

    Mortimer Adler points out that it is the mind that conforms to reality not reality to the mind. (Adler,Aristotle for Everybody: Difficult thought Made Easy. New York: Macmillan, 1978

    To be cont'd

  17. #17
    ColleenC1
    Guest

    Re: This god business

    cont'd

    Self Evidence may be a new concept for the 20th and 21st but it wasn't for our forefathers went they wrote the Consitution of the United States, they "penned" the words These things are "self-evident" "All Men are Created Equal" (now one may argue the "Created" portion) if we take out created we have All Men are Equal.

    But to demonstrate this point, one is consequently brought back to the First Principle. We "know" all Men are Equal, but not How do we know, we don't. We just know.

    To be cont'd

  18. #18
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: This god business

    What in the world are you talking about?

    When the framers spoke of all men being "created equal" they were referring to men having equal rights, politically and morally. This is, indeed, "self-evident" - though what corollary it has to religious nonsense escapes me!

  19. #19
    gail
    Guest

    Re: This god business

    Eric Peters wrote: <>

    You don't even believe that Bush is president, so it's a stretch for you to accept God. LOL

  20. #20
    ColleenC1
    Guest

    Re: This god business

    Sorry I miss stated, it was the Declaration of Independence

    The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
    The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
    In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ...


    Yes you are correct that this statement is about "rights", but it is an example of the First Principle of Knowledge, and that at this point is all that it was intended for.

    We do not have to contemplate about first principles to know whether they are true; it is obvious to us (self-evident) that they are true as soon as we understand the terms used in the proposition.

    And it has every thing to do with God, Brackman challenged me and before I address his claims, I am laying the foundation for mine.

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