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Thread: Some end of year "good news"

  1. #1
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Some end of year "good news"

    The grim milestone of 3,000 dead U.S. soldiers has been reached in Iraq:

    U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 2989
    Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 11
    Total 3000
    DoD Confirmation List

    See: http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

    Some 25,000 American soldiers have been wounded to date - about half that number being permanantly disabled.

    December was the deadliest month for American soldiers during all of 2006.

    The four year anniversary of "Mission Accomplished" is now just a few months away - and the Iraq war has already lasted longer than U.S. involvement in World War II.





  2. #2
    mrblanche
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    And our "combat" involvement in Iraq is almost 4 years past. You need to consider the post-war occupation, etc., in Germany, Japan, and the associated areas before you can really compare. Some say, in fact, that both Korea and Vietnam were actually some of the wind-down of WWII.

    And you really don't want to fall into the trap of comparing Iraq to WWII, because that terrain is rife with pitfalls for either side.

    But your gleeful recounting of such grim statistics betray your real feelings.

  3. #3
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    "And our "combat" involvement in Iraq is almost 4 years past."

    Are you kidding me? You're not buying that Chimp Kool-Aid, are you?

    "But your gleeful recounting of such grim statistics betray your real feelings."

    That's quite a leap and quite an assumption on your part. You know nothing of my "real feelings" - and equating my hatred of The Chimp and my disgust with his idiot war and feeling "glee" over the deaths of our soliders there is a Chimp slander par excellence.

    It's also absolute bullshit. I am disappointed you would stoop to that.

  4. #4
    mrblanche
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Really? I understand the difference between combat and pacification. Do you?


  5. #5
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    "Really? I understand the difference between combat and pacification. Do you?"

    Parse it however you like; the fact is our soldiers are caught in a combat zone. Perhaps you can explain the difference to the families of the men killed this month. I am sure it will give them great comfort.

  6. #6
    gail
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The grim milestone of 3,000 dead U.S. soldiers has been reached in Iraq:

    U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 2989
    Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 11
    Total 3000
    DoD Confirmation List

    See: http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

    Some 25,000 American soldiers have been wounded to date - about half that number being permanantly disabled.

    December was the deadliest month for American soldiers during all of 2006.

    The four year anniversary of "Mission Accomplished" is now just a few months away - and the Iraq war has already lasted longer than U.S. involvement in World War II.

    No, Eric, the Iraqi War has NOT lasted longer than WWII and nowhere near the dead toll which ran into the millions

    <>

    We are playing patty-cake in comparison. My only objection to the War in Iraq is that because Bush is trying to placate the pacifists he has please no one. If the pacifists would be supportive and let us get on with winning for both us and the Iraqi people -- it would have been over by now.

  7. #7
    DonTom
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    No, Eric, the Iraqi War has NOT lasted longer than WWII

    Eric did NOT say that. Try rereading it.

    -Don-

  8. #8
    gail
    Guest

    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    No, Eric, the Iraqi War has NOT lasted longer than WWII

    Eric did NOT say that. Try rereading it.

    -Don-
    "Oh dear," she said in her sweet falsetto voice, "please help me understand. All of this is much to deep for me."

  9. #9
    DonTom
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    please help me understand.

    WW2 was going on long before we thought about getting involved in it. Eric said "US involvement in WW2". That does NOT include when Japan invaded China, which was the very start of WW2. Have you ever been to Pearl Harbor and seen the movie about how WW2 really started and how and when we got involved? Pearl Harbor is how we first got involved by what happened there on Dec 7, 1941. We got involved with WW2 on Dec 8, 1941.

    We got involved in Iraq in 1990 and it's still going on.

    -Don-



  10. #10
    mrblanche
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Actually, we were involved in WWII long before Dec. 7, 1941. Here, for example, is an article on the SS Reuben James, the first US warship sunk in WWII, in October of 1941. We had lost a number of merchant ships before that date, too.

  11. #11
    DonTom
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    We had lost a number of merchant ships before that date, too.

    Yes, my dad was in the Merchant Marines and they lost a higher percentage of people than did any US military branch. However, we were not involved until we started fighting. Let me check my dictionary(1994 AHD3) which is good for this type of thing without a lot of reading:


    Pearl Harbor- An inlet of the Pacific Ocean on the southern coast of Oahu, Hawaii, west of Honolulu. It became the site of a naval base after the United States annexed Hawaii in 1900. On Sunday, December 7, 1941, Japanese planes attacked the base without warning, destroying or severely damaging 19 naval vessels and some 200 aircraft. The United States entered World War II the following day.


    Note the last sentence there.

    -Don-



  12. #12
    gail
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    ~~Don't argue with an idiot;
    people watching may not be able to tell the difference. ~~

  13. #13
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    "No, Eric, the Iraqi War has NOT lasted longer than WWII"

    Get you facts right, Gail. I said US involvement in WW II - which began in early 1942. We have been involved in the Iraq war several months longer than the length of time we were involved in WW II.

    And more to the point, things are growing worse, not better in Iraq, whereas by 1944, it was very clear we were winning WWII.

    "...and nowhere near the dead toll which ran into the millions"

    I'm sure that's great comfort to the 3,000 who have died - and the ten thousand plus maimed for life. You and your Chimp are amazingly cavalier with other people's lives. It must be quite something to sit on high and determine how many lives (but not your own) are "worth it."

    The thing that appalls and enrages people like me about people like you is that you seem perfectly willing to throw good money after bad. Thousands of our soldiers have already been killed and maimed. For what, exactly? Do you see democracy aborning in Iraq? Now The Chimp wants to toss more troops into the blender. And six months from now, perhaps another 500 (or 1,000) more will have been killed (and a few thousand more mutilated for life). Again, for what? Things grow worse, not better, as the weeks and months go by.

    But I suppose you'll hold the same opinion next year this time as well - when we'll be over 4,000 dead at the current rate (maybe more, courtesy of the Chimpian "surge" that is apparently in the works.

    It was naive and ignorant to imagine we could hold a "nation" comprised of warring religious/ethnic factions together at gunpoint, indefinitely - much less turn this polyglot cauldron into a Western-friendly "democracy" after decades of aiding and abetting Saddam suppress his people.

    It's insanity not to recognize this now.






  14. #14
    mrblanche
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom

    Pearl Harbor- An inlet of the Pacific Ocean on the southern coast of Oahu, Hawaii, west of Honolulu. It became the site of a naval base after the United States annexed Hawaii in 1900. On Sunday, December 7, 1941, Japanese planes attacked the base without warning, destroying or severely damaging 19 naval vessels and some 200 aircraft. The United States entered World War II the following day.


    Note the last sentence there.

    -Don-


    Unfortunately, there is one crucial word missing from that sentence: "officially"

    In fact, if you check this site, you'll see we had already lost about 100 ships and 300 merchant sailers before we entered the war.

    http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

  15. #15
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    "Unfortunately, there is one crucial word missing from that sentence: "officially"

    In fact, if you check this site, you'll see we had already lost about 100 ships and 300 merchant sailers before we entered the war."

    You're absolutely right. However, it's more accurate to say we were aiding and abetting Great Britain, etc. Yes, we had some fliers in the RAF, etc. But we were not involved in an open shooting war. This is a key difference between then and now, in terms of what we are dscussing. We have been in Iraq, in combat, for a longer period than we were involved officially in WWI - and the intensity has not decreased in Iraq; if anything it has grown more so - and that will ratchet up again if we do the "surge" The Chimp is busily orchestrating against the advice and counsel of his military advisors.

    In contrast, by 1943, it was very clear the Axis powers were losing and we were winning. It surely helped matters, too, that ther mission was clear and the steps toward achieving it equally so - again, unlike the Iraqi debacle.

  16. #16
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    "Unfortunately, there is one crucial word missing from that sentence: "officially"

    In fact, if you check this site, you'll see we had already lost about 100 ships and 300 merchant sailers before we entered the war."

    You're absolutely right. However, it's more accurate to say we were aiding and abetting Great Britain, etc. Yes, we had some fliers in the RAF, etc. But we were not involved in an open shooting war. This is a key difference between then and now, in terms of what we are dscussing. We have been in Iraq, in combat, for a longer period than we were involved officially in WWI - and the intensity has not decreased in Iraq; if anything it has grown more so - and that will ratchet up again if we do the "surge" The Chimp is busily orchestrating against the advice and counsel of his military advisors.

    Moreover, by 1943, it was very clear the Axis powers were losing and we were winning. It surely helped matters, too, that our war aims were clear and the steps involved in achieving them equally so - unlike the Iraqi debacle and the "mission" brayed about by the gesticulating, smirking monkey man.

  17. #17
    DonTom
    Guest

    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Unfortunately, there is one crucial word missing from that sentence: "officially"

    If you don't go by the official date, I doubt if you will get much agreement about on which day WW2 really started for us. The start of a war is NOT defined by the very first American who gets killed or hurt to any more of a degree that the end of the war is defined by the last person killed in it (or from it).

    -Don-


  18. #18
    gail
    Guest

    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The grim milestone of 3,000 dead U.S. soldiers has been reached in Iraq:

    U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 2989
    Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 11
    Total 3000
    DoD Confirmation List

    See: http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

    Some 25,000 American soldiers have been wounded to date - about half that number being permanantly disabled.

    December was the deadliest month for American soldiers during all of 2006.

    The four year anniversary of "Mission Accomplished" is now just a few months away - and the Iraq war has already lasted longer than U.S. involvement in World War II.

    Time to lay down the death rate, Eric. Yes, it is tragic with a child dies, but at least when a solder dies fighting for freedom it is honorable. you can go into any major city in America -- Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Chicago, NYC, DC, Miami and even SLC and the murder rate exceeds the death rate among American killed in Iraq. Thousands upon thousands die in car crashes, home accidents and in hospitals due to medical mistakes every year that far exceed the deaths in Iraq. In fact, there are that many young people dying chug-a-lugging beer.

    You really need a new mantra in order to convince us or at least me, that this is a bad war. I personally would like to see a Truman approach to the war, but I DO NOT want to see us pull out of Iraq the way we limped out of Nam. I would also like to see some sanctioned on the press and what they tell our enemies. I am beginning to see the entire press corp as a bunch of Benedict Arnolds. Does that include you, Eric? I don't know, you tell me!

  19. #19
    DonTom
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Yes, it is tragic with a child dies, but at least when a solder dies fighting for freedom it is honorable.

    IMO, "freedom" is a meaningless buzzword, just as is the word "love". When either of these two words are used, you have to define what they mean first or else I assume they mean nothing at all.

    So what's your definition of "freedom"? And how come we don't force freedom on countries such as Saudi Arabia and other countries that have little freedom? Saudi does NOT even have freedom of religion, but we seem to have no problem with that. Why?

    Or do you mean fighting for OUR freedom? If so, still, how do you define it? We have more laws than any country in the world as well as the very highest percentage of our population in jail/prison. So what do you mean by "fighting for freedom"? Whose freedom? Do we already have freedom or are we trying to get freedom? Just what is it, IYO?

    Was it freedom when I was drafted for a war that I did NOT believe in?


    "The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free to do than in what we are free not to do."
    --Eric Hoffer

    -Don Quoteman









  20. #20
    mrblanche
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    Re: Some end of year "good news"

    Once again, you fail to see the difference between combat and pacification, a process that would have taken at least a decade in Japan had we not used the nuclear weapons there.

    Which, of course, we COULD do in Iraq. One good tactical nuke on Fallujah, and things might calm down there. But probably not, which is why the job has taken so long and been so unrewarding.

    But we were well and truly in WWII well before Dec. 7, 1941, and that is a fact that any historian will acknowledge. In fact, the Japanese argued that we had actually been at war with them for well over a year before Dec. 7, politically and strategically if not completely militarily. And we had men fighting both for China (remember Claire Chenault?) and Britain (through a program allowing AF pilots to resign in the U.S. and then go to Britain).

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