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Thread: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

  1. #1
    mrblanche
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    More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    I hope Gail, especially, will notice this message.

    I have mentioned that my wife works for a Mormon-owned company, and I have said here that while Mormons are almost universally respected for their stands on morality, their family values, their attention to health, etc., they are also almost widely known as "sharp" (i.e., boderline unethical) businessmen. Here's a concrete example.

    Dottie teaches as an instructor at a trucking school owned and operated by a large trucking company that is owned by a Mormon family. One of the oddities (and something that wasn't mentioned until she actually started working there) was that they were refusing to pay the instructors any overtime pay, in spite of some weeks as high as 70 hours. Their reasoning was their claim that the instructors were interstate truck drivers, who are, indeed, exempt from overtime laws.

    I looked up the law and printed it out and Dottie passed it on to her supervisor. The law is clear that unless the drivers are actually hauling freight across state lines, they are NOT exempt.

    Just 3 weeks ago Dottie was shown a letter, supposedly from the Federal Labor Department, supposedly exempting the instructors from overtime, but she was not allowed to read the whole document.

    Last week, word came down that they school would, in fact, be required to pay overtime, and pay it back for almost 2 years.

    Now, the facts have come out. The trucking company had put the instructors in a "ghost" fleet of trucks, and was claiming that they WERE in fact hauling freight across state lines. This was caught during a regular log audit by the FMCSA. When they asked for logs for those trucks, it came to light the trucks were assigned to the schools and went nowhere. The FMCSA inspector was angry enough at the blatant deception that he called in the Department of Labor, who ripped the trucking company a new one. The instructors at this one school alone are owned over $100,000 in back wages.

    What was that text? "Do unto others...until you get caught?"

    And what do you think was really in that letter Dottie was shown? Do you think it's possible that the management knew at that time that they were on extremely shaky ground?

  2. #2
    TC
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Now, the facts have come out. The trucking company had put the instructors in a "ghost" fleet of trucks, and was claiming that they WERE in fact hauling freight across state lines. This was caught during a regular log audit by the FMCSA. When they asked for logs for those trucks, it came to light the trucks were assigned to the schools and went nowhere. The FMCSA inspector was angry enough at the blatant deception that he called in the Department of Labor, who ripped the trucking company a new one. The instructors at this one school alone are owned over $100,000 in back wages.

    What was that text? "Do unto others...until you get caught?"

    And what do you think was really in that letter Dottie was shown? Do you think it's possible that the management knew at that time that they were on extremely shaky ground?
    To me, it looks like the indicator is pointing in the direction of "the management knew at the time that they were on extremely shaky ground."

  3. #3
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Mike said:

    >> What was that text? "Do unto others...until you get caught?" <<

    I believe that to be normal human behavior, although not necessarily as immoral as what you described.

    The 'ghost fleet,' was outright theft from the employees and I'll bet hat it was no secret to management from day one. It was also theft from government through not paying the extra wage based taxes.

  4. #4
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    The instructors are already treading lightly, wondering what the "other shoe" will be.

  5. #5
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    The instructors are already treading lightly, wondering what the "other shoe" will be.
    Maybe they'll wait until the suits have come up with the new numbers and then decide. If they can't make a buck the right way, then ...

  6. #6
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    The owners are probably starting a witch-hunt to find the person that tipped off the feds (even if the feds discovered it all on their own)

    Chip H.

    Former owner: 2012 Honda Civic LX, 2006 Honda Ridgeline RTL, 2000 Honda CR-V EX, 2003 MINI Cooper S, 1992 Honda Accord LX, 1999 Mercedes ML-320, 1995 VW Jetta GLX, 1991 Mercury Capri XR2, 1981 Mercury Zephyr, 1975 Chevrolet Impala

  7. #7
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Nationalise 'em all!



    Cadre Rob

  8. #8
    gail
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Well, Gail noticed and read your brief, Mike, but I'm not sure what you would have me say ??? While we Mormons refer to ourselves as "Saints," the usage isn't in the same vernacular.

    Once I was talking with a young Bishop and I asked him what had surprised him the most since he had been a bishop, and he sadly replied how many courts that he had to preside over.

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    (New Testament | Romans 3:23)


    This is about the best I can say, other than I am sad that these people have given you a bad impressions of us.

  9. #9
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    This is about the best I can say, other than I am sad that these people have given you a bad impressions of us.
    I'd be more impressed if you asked your local leaders what they think about members so blatantly ripping off their employees and giving the expression "Mormon businessman" a negative connotation.

    I take comfort in Luke 6:38:

    Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


  10. #10
    gail
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    This is about the best I can say, other than I am sad that these people have given you a bad impressions of us.
    I'd be more impressed if you asked your local leaders what they think about members so blatantly ripping off their employees and giving the expression "Mormon businessman" a negative connotation.

    I take comfort in Luke 6:38:

    Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

    I practice this scripture:

    19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
    21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    (New Testament | Romans 12:19 - 21)


    My local leaders would say, and often do, pretty much what I told you. We are cautioned about our behavior as all the time each of us are view as an example of the Church and its teachings. We are not a Church of hypocrites, but alas, there are hypocrites among us.

    which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    (New Testament | Matthew 7:15)


    My leaders here in Las Vegas have no authority of members elsewhere. We do have several methods of check though.
    1) You, as a person offended, could talk with this person's bishop, stake president or the missionaries in your area.
    2) Each member has the responsibility when asked to vote for a person in their own ward/branch/stake to vote against a person if they know of a reason that they shouldn't hold a position in the church.
    3) When a person is requesting a Temple recommend they are asked if they are honest in all their dealings.

    There are many members who do not have Temple Recommends or have callings, or even attend meetings for that matter. We try to reach these people through the Home Teacher's/Visiting Teaching programs.

    I do not know if the people you speak of fall into these categories or not, Why don't you come right out and ask them if they are active in the Church, and then proceed from there?

    I personally do not hang my testimony on any person, regardless of how spiritual or anything else. I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true and that a prophet guides us today as in the days of old. Jesus, The Christ is the center and cornerstone of our church. Judas sat, and dined with Jesus and still betrayed him, how much weaker are people today. I will pray for them and you. I say these things in the name of my savior, and Heavenly Father's son, Jesus Christ.

  11. #11
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    And my reply to your response is that if you're willing to take on the Congress of the United States over some perceived slight, it seems like you would at least take some interest in this little item, which clearly reflects on your credibility here.

    Or maybe you actually knew about this problem all along and figure it doesn't make any difference. But in my book, an employer who intentionally rips off his employees deserves all the scorn he receives. I have to say that C.L. Werner, who I worked for for 10+ years, displayed much more of a Christian attitude toward his larger family of employees. I personally saw him correct an injustice when I brought it to his attention, and in the process help dozens of drivers who hd been wrongly charged with a preventable accident due to a brake fire (which was due to a manufacturing defect from Freightliner).

    I personally hope this is tracked all the way to the top, where the decision was made, and results in at least increased surveillance of these people, if not serious fines. It is already going to cost them several hundred thousand dollars to get this straightened out, not to mention other consequences.

  12. #12
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    And my reply to your response is that if you're willing to take on the Congress of the United States over some perceived slight, it seems like you would at least take some interest in this little item, which clearly reflects on your credibility here.

    Maybe that's a bit harsh, it could be beyond Gail's control.

    Teddy Kennedy bought an annulment from the Catholic Pope and perhaps this lot has bought an indulgence from the Mormon Pope.


  13. #13
    gail
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    And my reply to your response is that if you're willing to take on the Congress of the United States over some perceived slight, it seems like you would at least take some interest in this little item, which clearly reflects on your credibility here.

    Maybe that's a bit harsh, it could be beyond Gail's control.

    Teddy Kennedy bought an annulment from the Catholic Pope and perhaps this lot has bought an indulgence from the Mormon Pope.

    Yes, it is beyond my control, but not God's:

    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    (New Testament | Galatians 6:7)


    Do not fret, Mike.

    PS What do you mean "Mormon Pope?" How is Ted Kennedy connect with any absolution from our Prophet?

  14. #14
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Maybe that's a bit harsh, it could be beyond Gail's control.

    Teddy Kennedy bought an annulment from the Catholic Pope and perhaps this lot has bought an indulgence from the Mormon Pope.

    I'm sure it is. My real point is that any religion that claims to be Christian and yet allows its members to treat people thus is not Christian at all, if you've read the New Testament. It is long on the "love thy neighbor as thyself," and very critical of those who hide behind religion to justify mistreating others.

    The Catholic religion falls in that category, too, if you've ever read Fox's Book of Martyrs.

  15. #15
    gail
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Maybe that's a bit harsh, it could be beyond Gail's control.

    Teddy Kennedy bought an annulment from the Catholic Pope and perhaps this lot has bought an indulgence from the Mormon Pope.

    I'm sure it is. My real point is that any religion that claims to be Christian and yet allows its members to treat people thus is not Christian at all, if you've read the New Testament. It is long on the "love thy neighbor as thyself," and very critical of those who hide behind religion to justify mistreating others.

    The Catholic religion falls in that category, too, if you've ever read Fox's Book of Martyrs.
    Mike, Mormons believe in free agency -- meaning we can make our own choices. The Church guides us and offers advice to us, but doesn't force us to do what is right. That is between ourselves and God. There are times when a transgressions becomes so blatant and public that the local church leadership will hold a Bishop's court, with or without the offending party, to rule. If the offending party is repentant the penalty is usually light - maybe a 6 month of being disfellowshipped. If the offending party refuses council than they can be ex-communicated. As we both know or should know, most transgressions go under the cover of darkness.

    You, yourself have the power and opportunity to confront this businessman, or to go to the local church authority yourself. But please, don't hold me responsible for another person's actions, nor my church.

  16. #16
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    You, yourself have the power and opportunity to confront this businessman, or to go to the local church authority yourself. But please, don't hold me responsible for another person's actions, nor my church.
    Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. And I really didn't expect you to do anything, other than admit that being Mormon doesn't really require anything other than making big donations and giving lip service to it tenets. You've done that very nicely, thank you.

  17. #17
    gail
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    You, yourself have the power and opportunity to confront this businessman, or to go to the local church authority yourself. But please, don't hold me responsible for another person's actions, nor my church.
    Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. And I really didn't expect you to do anything, other than admit that being Mormon doesn't really require anything other than making big donations and giving lip service to it tenets. You've done that very nicely, thank you.
    Your words are getting meaner by the posts, Mike, and I have seen you as a petty, and unkind person - but maybe I was wrong. And, there are member who make no donations at all. There are those who adhere to the teaching and yet never attend any meetings.

    The only thing that I done very nicely is to explain how each of us are responsible and accountable for our own actions. I do not know what you think I should or could do to remedy this situation for you. I will however print out your post and discuss them with my bishop and once again explain to those in attendants how each of our behavior effects people outside our church. But, alas, the ones who will need to hear and heed it the most will probably not be around to hear it.

  18. #18
    mrblanche
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    Your words are getting meaner by the posts, Mike, and I have seen you as a petty, and unkind person - but maybe I was wrong. And, there are member who make no donations at all. There are those who adhere to the teaching and yet never attend any meetings.
    Sorry it seems mean, but my real point is that if Mormonism doesn't affect the way people treat others, even non-Mormons, then in the modern world it really has no value. You have praised the church, and you defend it, but to my way of thinking, if it doesn't have any sort of a group defense for its own public relations, if for no other reason, then it is really falling down.

    And it almost seems as if something in the religion actually encourages, somehow, the "sharp dealing" with non-believers. If that's not the case, then the church leaders need to takes steps to change that impression, especially if they care at all about Romney's chances (and if they're smart, they don't care, at least not publicly).

    There are many people who will have no other contact with Mormons than the businesses they own, and they form opinions and impressions of the church from those contacts. No amount of being baptized in absentia is going to make them feel any better about it, if they get ripped off in their dealings.

    Of course, the world is full of greedy businessmen, and their churches seem to tolerate them, too. It seems the Mormons are at best pretty much run-of-the-mill with nothing to brag about on this issue.

  19. #19
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    And my reply to your response is that if you're willing to take on the Congress of the United States over some perceived slight, it seems like you would at least take some interest in this little item, which clearly reflects on your credibility here.

    Maybe that's a bit harsh, it could be beyond Gail's control.

    Teddy Kennedy bought an annulment from the Catholic Pope and perhaps this lot has bought an indulgence from the Mormon Pope.

    Yes, it is beyond my control, but not God's:

    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    (New Testament | Galatians 6:7)


    Do not fret, Mike.

    PS What do you mean "Mormon Pope?" How is Ted Kennedy connect with any absolution from our Prophet?
    It was an analogy, if the Pope can be bought, any religious leader can. I'm guessing that the LDS have a centralized command with someone in charge, as opposed to, say, the Baptist Church which is pure anarchy.

  20. #20
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    Re: More concrete (and asphalt) hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    It was an analogy, if the Pope can be bought, any religious leader can. I'm guessing that the LDS have a centralized command with someone in charge, as opposed to, say, the Baptist Church which is pure anarchy.
    The Exclusive Brethren partly financed the last National Party election campaign here. They lied about it, as did the ex-leader Brash.

    Now a Brethren man is paying for anti-gummint ads and saying the Church has nothing to do with it.

    It's tricky, in a free society. I don't mind free speech, in fact I value it [otherwise someone would have killed me], but I worry when there are secret agendas.

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