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Thread: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

  1. #1
    mrblanche
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    Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Here's a link to an interview with the director of that show, along with some other experts in the field. Unfortunately, about the time it gets interesting, with one of the experts pointing out either some falsehoods or sloppy research, the show ends!

    http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/07/03/05.php#13135

  2. #2
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Here's a link to an interview with the director of that show, along with some other experts in the field. Unfortunately, about the time it gets interesting, with one of the experts pointing out either some falsehoods or sloppy research, the show ends!

    http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/07/03/05.php#13135
    I caught about half the "main show" before nodding off; it was fairly interesting.

    But what I find even more interesting is the hold that Christianity (and religion, generally) has on so many people. As far as Christianity: The idea that a sky god impregnated a virgin to incarnate as a man in order to understand his creations better (wasn't God supposed to be omniscient?) and then this immortal sky god "dies" (how's that work, exactly?) in order to transfer the "sins" of mortals onto himself and thereby expiate them, etc. etc.

    How do people slurp stuff like that up?

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    >>How do people slurp stuff like that up? <<

    If you tell the same story enough times to the same person, it soon becomes truth---

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    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose
    >>How do people slurp stuff like that up? <<

    If you tell the same story enough times to the same person, it soon becomes truth---
    So I gather!

    I just wonder whether all those Christians out there (or even many of them) have ever really thought about the basic doctrines of their faith - or read the bible. I believe many (perhaps most?) Christians have a sort of vague, generic, "be nice to people/do unto others" view of what their religion means - and have never really given much critical thought to notions like the virgin birth, a Sky God who ismonotheistic yet has a "son," all the superstitious tribal/iron age nonsense, etc. etc.

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    >>I believe many (perhaps most?) Christians have a sort of vague, generic, "be nice to people/do unto others" view of what their religion means - and have never really given much critical thought to notions like the virgin birth, a Sky God who ismonotheistic yet has a "son," all the superstitious tribal/iron age nonsense, etc. etc. <<

    I don't care what they believe as long as they don't attempt to sell it to me-- like making the American Indians out to be the lost tribe of Israel.

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose

    I don't care what they believe as long as they don't attempt to sell it to me-- like making the American Indians out to be the lost tribe of Israel.
    I thought that the 'lost tribe' was found in Africa several years ago and resettled in Israel.

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    >>I thought that the 'lost tribe' was found in Africa several years ago and resettled in Israel.<<

    Not according to ol' Joe Smith

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose
    >>I thought that the 'lost tribe' was found in Africa several years ago and resettled in Israel.<<

    Not according to ol' Joe Smith
    Well, Mr. Smith was no doubt a good man but I would question his rabbinical virtues.

    Put more clearly, Joseph Smith didn't know from Tribes.

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    >>Put more clearly, Joseph Smith didn't know from Tribes.<<

    Just for a start----

  10. #10
    gail
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose
    >>I believe many (perhaps most?) Christians have a sort of vague, generic, "be nice to people/do unto others" view of what their religion means - and have never really given much critical thought to notions like the virgin birth, a Sky God who ismonotheistic yet has a "son," all the superstitious tribal/iron age nonsense, etc. etc. <<

    I don't care what they believe as long as they don't attempt to sell it to me-- like making the American Indians out to be the lost tribe of Israel.
    Not a whole tribe, just the descendants of two families -

    An account of Lehi and his wife Sariah, and his four sons, being called, (beginning at the eldest) Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi. The Lord warns Lehi to depart out of the land of Jerusalem, because he prophesieth unto the people concerning their iniquity and they seek to destroy his life. He taketh three days' journey into the wilderness with his family. Nephi taketh his brethren and returneth to the land of Jerusalem after the record of the Jews. The account of their sufferings. They take the daughters of Ishmael to wife. They take their families and depart into the wilderness. Their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness. The course of their travels. They come to the large waters. Nephi's brethren rebel against him. He confoundeth them, and buildeth a ship. They call the name of the place Bountiful. They cross the large waters into the promised land, and so forth. This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record.

    (Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi Preface:Heading)

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by gail

    Not a whole tribe, just the descendants of two families -

    My mother converted from C of E to SDA in 1960. They didn't have such specific biblical or other written stuff, but a book I recall was "The Great Controversy". I was 9 years old then and left the SDA at 13yrs and was somewhat affected by it.

    So without getting too much into religious faith, how are your sons?

  12. #12
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    A nice fairy tale... .

    The reality is American Indians are not descended of semitic (Middle Eastern) peoples; DNA and anthropological evidence shows they are descended of Asiatic stock (like the Eskimos). They probably crossed over the ancient land bridge that once connected the Asian continent to the Americas, many thousands of years ago.

    The Mormon account (like so many other fables in religious literature) doesn't stand up to scrutiny (or common sense).

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose
    If you tell the same story enough times to the same person, it soon becomes truth---
    Not necessarily. I come from a family of rabid Methodists. One advantage of being force-fed all that garbage is that I have a very good knowledge of what I don't believe in - positive disbelief is so much more satisfying than the more common negative variety!

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Brand


    Not necessarily. I come from a family of rabid Methodists. One- positive disbelief is so much more satisfying than the more common negative variety!

    Yeah, well, doubt remains.... otherwise GM cars woud be perfect.

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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    >>Not necessarily. I come from a family of rabid Methodists. One advantage of being force-fed all that garbage is that I have a very good knowledge of what I don't believe in - positive disbelief is so much more satisfying than the more common negative variety!<<

    Sorry about that-- I should have finished the statement with a disclamer indicating that believers are of the empty headed group of people who need a leader to function.

  16. #16
    mrblanche
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Some time back, I asked Eric if he could point me to any truly "conservative" pundits that he actually liked, since he seems to make a career of attacking most of them. He mentioned a name (which I have now forgotten). I went to that writer's web site, and, lo and behold, the current column was about religion. The basic premise was that while he didn't believe in it, if it caused people to be better citizens, he was all in favor of them believing it.

    I think I'd go along with that. Almost any belief, even a slavish belief in science, is often based on some pretty irrational bases. Most religious beliefs have some basis in fact (but not a religious fact--some event or truth that got passed down generation to generation), but are so removed from the original fact that the truth in them is indistinguishable from legend. When you get down to it, almost all religion is basically a grasping to believe the "orginal lie" supposedly told by the serpent in the Garden of Eden: "You shall not surely die." We all want to believe that this ridiculous life is not all there is.

    Most religions reward "good" behavior and punish "bad" behavior. For most of them, good behavior would include good treatment of others, but would also include telling others about the belief system. Only a few today still believe that killing non-believers is acceptable; wiping out that belief would probably be a worthy but unattainable goal.

    My posts to Gail about some members of her church are along the same lines. If something in the religion leads its members to believe it is OK to mistreat others, then that part of the religion needs to be held up for the disdain and ridicule it deserves. I don't care if they believe whatever else they believe, as long as they also believe in fair treatment of others.

    Which brings me to Ann Coulter and others of her ilk on every side. She may (probably does) believe wholeheartedly in what she's saying, but to purposely hurt others or abuse them verbally cheapens the dialog and deserves to be censured. Someone can be wrong (heck, someone could even disagree with me), but that doesn't mean they're bad or even deserving of verbal abuse.

    Which brings me back to religion. Even if you only believe that Jesus lived and preached, you should keep in mind his statement, "Other sheep have I that are not of this fold." It shocked his followers at the time, and it seems to still go over the head of Christians everywhere.

  17. #17
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Actually, I mentioned several - including Joe Sobran, Sam Francis (deceased, unfortunately) and Paul Craig Roberts. (I have personally met or worked with all three, by the way.)

    Coulter's a mere ranter; a half-educated demagogue who has less real talent in her entire brain than any of the above have in the tips of their index fingers.

    As far as religon: It's one thing to allow a spiritual component to existence; to have a sense of awe and wonder at the world around us, etc. To accept that we, as finite beings, cannot have perfect knowledge of much, if anything - and that there may, indeed, be something beyond our limited ken and perception. But it's quite another to believe in relgious dogmas such as a tribal sky god who impregnates a virgin to produce a corporeal "son" - whose purpose is to suffer and die (leaving aside how an immortal being can "suffer" or "die" in any meaningful sense) in order to expiate the sins of humanity (in other words, we kill an innocent to make up for the crimes of the evil - could a more noxious doctrine be put forward?)and who then "rises" to "the father." And so on. Or that the American Indians are the "third tribe" of Israel - or whatever...

    That's just crap.

  18. #18
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    But it's quite another to believe in relgious dogmas such as a tribal sky god who impregnates a virgin to produce a corporeal "son" - whose purpose is to suffer and die (leaving aside how an immortal being can "suffer" or "die" in any meaningful sense) in order to expiate the sins of humanity (in other words, we kill an innocent to make up for the crimes of the evil - could a more noxious doctrine be put forward?)and who then "rises" to "the father." And so on. Or that the American Indians are the "third tribe" of Israel - or whatever...

    That's just crap.
    Yeah the "guy in the sky" wearing a bath robe is getting pretty old. It says a lot for public education if people still believe that 'God' (dog spelled backwards) is somewhere 'there - in the sky'. And all the angles are up there too .
    A modicum of physics and common sense could easily erase those types of thoughts!

    As an atheist, I can buy into some universal force or energy or connectivness. But I can't buy into this personficaion of god.

  19. #19
    gail
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Rose
    >>How do people slurp stuff like that up? <<

    If you tell the same story enough times to the same person, it soon becomes truth---
    So I gather!

    I just wonder whether all those Christians out there (or even many of them) have ever really thought about the basic doctrines of their faith - or read the bible. I believe many (perhaps most?) Christians have a sort of vague, generic, "be nice to people/do unto others" view of what their religion means - and have never really given much critical thought to notions like the virgin birth, a Sky God who ismonotheistic yet has a "son," all the superstitious tribal/iron age nonsense, etc. etc.
    The quote is <>

    I can sorta, kinda agree with many Christians for what you say. However, many Christians have studied deep and hard, and know what they believe. Why is it so strange of the virgin birth, when our culture is capable of performing a virgin birth, how much more capable is the God who formed the universe to create a child in a virgin. Why do you keep trying to limit the Almighty?

    http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...3726-1902r.htm

    The cultural left, which includes members of both major political parties and their allies in the press, academia and the nonprofit sector, has "fostered a decadent American culture that angers and repulses traditional societies, especially those in the Islamic world, that are being overwhelmed with this culture," Mr. D'Souza writes on his Web site.
    "What angers religious Muslims is not the American Constitution but the scandalous sexual mores they see on American movies and television," he writes. "What disgusts them are not free elections but the sights of hundreds of homosexuals kissing each other and taking marriage vows. The person that horrifies them the most is not [free market philosopher] John Locke but Hillary Clinton."

  20. #20
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    Re: Somebody mentioned the "Jesus family tomb"

    Quote Originally Posted by gail

    "What angers religious Muslims is not the American Constitution but the scandalous sexual mores they see on American movies and television," he writes. "What disgusts them are not free elections but the sights of hundreds of homosexuals kissing each other and taking marriage vows. The person that horrifies them the most is not [free market philosopher] John Locke but Hillary Clinton."
    That's just silly! The name of any zealous religious sect could be substituted form Muslims and the statement would be equally true or more so.

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