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Thread: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

  1. #21
    mrblanche
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The Russians won World War II in Europe; we just picked up the pieces.
    The Russians were almost completely stalled on the Eastern Front. Without a Southern Front, and then the Western Front, the Germans may well have eventually defeated Russia, or at least negotiated them into a permanent stalemate.

  2. #22
    XRocketman1967
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The Russians won World War II in Europe; we just picked up the pieces.
    The Russians were almost completely stalled on the Eastern Front. Without a Southern Front, and then the Western Front, the Germans may well have eventually defeated Russia, or at least negotiated them into a permanent stalemate.
    But the Germans(some high ranking German Generals) were tired of the war and wanted Hitler out(hence the attempt on his life) and then negotiate a peace with the US and Britain.

  3. #23
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    The Russians bled the Germans white; it was attrition that sealed the doom of Nazi Germany.

    The endless supply of men and material - not the quality of either - is what exhausted the Reich, ultimately.

    Now, I agree that a stalemate or negotiated settlement could have happened had Russia not had the backing of the US and Britain.

    As an aside: The failure of the Germans to develop a long range heavy "Uralbomber" is considered by many to have been one of the key reasons why Germany lost the war.

  4. #24
    XRocketman1967
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The Russians bled the Germans white; it was attrition that sealed the doom of Nazi Germany.

    The endless supply of men and material - not the quality of either - is what exhausted the Reich, ultimately.

    Now, I agree that a stalemate or negotiated settlement could have happened had Russia not had the backing of the US and Britain.
    Oh so true.
    And as they say, and the rest is history.

  5. #25
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!


    Probably Hitler's greatest failure/weakness as a warlord was his soft spot for the English. He very much sought an accommodation with the Brits - and could not comprehend their adamant refusal to come to terms. He considered Englad beaten in 1940 - with only Churchill (and Churchill's hope of aid from either the Soviet Union or America) standing in the way of peace. His decision not to eradicate the Dunkirk pocket, not to launch Sea Lion (the cross-channel invasion) can be attributed to his hope for some rapprochement with the English - just as the invasion of the Soviet Union was intended primarily to force the English to come to the table.

    Had anyone other than Churchill been PM, history could have turned out very differently...

    Of course, after the war, Winnie is supposed to have quipped that the Allies "killed the wrong pig."

  6. #26
    XRocketman1967
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    He also liked Polish sausage and French wine but the Brits weren't about to turn over their English Stout to Hitler..... ;D

  7. #27
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by XRocketman1967
    He also liked Polish sausage and French wine but the Brits weren't about to turn over their English Stout to Hitler..... ;D
    Actually, Hitler was a vegetarian and virtual tee-totaler who rarely drank!

  8. #28
    mrblanche
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    As an aside: The failure of the Germans to develop a long range heavy "Uralbomber" is considered by many to have been one of the key reasons why Germany lost the war.
    Maybe. But if you stop and think what bombing New York would have done to the U.S. war effort, you may understand why there are those who say that our bombing of Germany was not as productive as we like to think, and didn't really affect the war's outcome that much.

  9. #29
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    As an aside: The failure of the Germans to develop a long range heavy "Uralbomber" is considered by many to have been one of the key reasons why Germany lost the war.
    Maybe. But if you stop and think what bombing New York would have done to the U.S. war effort, you may understand why there are those who say that our bombing of Germany was not as productive as we like to think, and didn't really affect the war's outcome that much.
    That's true; Speer actually managed to increase war production at the height of the bombing....

  10. #30
    XRocketman1967
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by XRocketman1967
    He also liked Polish sausage and French wine but the Brits weren't about to turn over their English Stout to Hitler..... ;D
    Actually, Hitler was a vegetarian and virtual tee-totaler who rarely drank!
    I meant that as a 'tongue and cheek' statement as for his desire when he invaded Poland and France.

  11. #31
    mrblanche
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    The invasion of Poland was his finger in the eye to Russia, and his invasion of France was largely to punish them for WWI. We forget history at our own peril!

  12. #32
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    The invasion of Poland was his finger in the eye to Russia, and his invasion of France was largely to punish them for WWI. We forget history at our own peril!
    How do you get that?

    Germany and Soviet Russia signed a non-aggression pact with a protocol under which Poland was divided between them. Russia was as much an aggressor as Germany - and they both profited from the arrangement.

    You're right about France - note that Hitler had the very same railway car used for the German surrender in WWI brought out of mothballs for the occasion of the armistice in WWII.

  13. #33
    mrblanche
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    And I have been in that very railway car.

    Poland has had a very unhappy history, having been independent very little of its life.

  14. #34
    AlmostFamous
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by XRocketman1967

    The Titan turned out to be the biggest load of crap ever to come out of Japan. It was funny back in 2004 when the Titan made its official debut. The media basically crowned it as the second coming. It was suppose to be the truck that took the American truck market by storm. Japan's first truck to make a huge dent in that automotive segment. It sells around 70,000 units a year. Maybe 2% of the truck market.


    Here's the facts. This is all you have to read to realize that Nissan screwed up big time. 40 pages worth of broken rear diffs:

    http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...lures-only.html


    29 pages worth of brake failures.

    http://www.titantalk.com/forums/tit...ecall-info.html


    It's just a very bad vehicle. An embarrassment. Interior of the truck is a disgrace. More cheap plastics than a mid 90's Chevy Cavalier. Gas mileage is the worst in the 1/2 ton market. Truck is loud and obnoxious. Very sloppy road manners, feels like your driving an 80's era truck. The brakes not only suck, they will fail by the time you hit 10,000 miles. It's also common for Titan owners to have gone through 3 rear-ends. Just a horrible truck all the way around.

  15. #35
    AlmostFamous
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    There was never any technical reason for the Japanese to not built large trucks. They just chose not to.

    And if anyone from Detroit ever said "They're not able to", this ought to prove them wrong.

    Chip H.
    Agreed.. they're whistling past the graveyard if they take that line...!

    Personally, I would definitely go with the proven GM truck. It may have less horsepower but not by much. The 6.0L Vortec produces 367hp and is only a $1100 option. So it's not far off Toyota's peak horsepower rating. The Vortec 6.0L is based on the LSx series of engines and is as reliable as they get. More importantly it gets better MPG and tows more. Also, the Silverado/Sierra get better gas mileage across the board when compared to other Tundra's configurations. Which points to why the Tundra has such big brakes, its heavy. It's at least 500lb heavier than all of the competition. And the GM trucks still slightly outbreaks the Tundra with smaller breaks. Plus GM wins hands down with it's interior. The Tundra's interior feels cheap and unrefined. Lots of cheap looking plastic everywhere. With a horrible looking gauge and center stack. It doesn't even come close to the Silverado/Sierra.

    This Tundra is on its 3rd strike. A multitude of issues keep it from becoming any threat in any form to the Detroit trucks. Already, problems are arising with this generation Tundra. Just as with the previous generation Tundra with the multiple recalls and recurring problems with the faulty ball joints, warped rotors ever 10k miles, etc...

    While this truck does offer more horsepower than any of Ford's, or Dodge's, or GM's offerings besides the 6.2L in the top model, who will buy this? The average price difference along similar based vehicles is around a $4000 dollar premium. Toyota is quoted to believe people will pay for a higher quality of vehicle. While the horsepower is greater, first ask yourself why do you need it? Torque is the most important power rating on a truck. How much torque and at what RPM's. The market is in 4 major segments, People using the trucks to tow large loads for work, people towing things for themselves(boats, trailers, etc.), people who like to gun it, and the everyday guy.

    A contractor will need the extra power, however he will also need a strong truck. He's looking to haul a lot and tow a lot. A 1/2 ton frame will not handle the needs of most contractors. Also the new Tundra has an inferior hauling load.

    The everyday guy who hauls his boat regularly or his camper needs extra power. However, just because this truck has more horsepower doesn't mean it can tow anymore! It's not worth the extra $4-5,000 and uncertainty of an unknown truck.

    The everyday guy who wants to drive his truck back and forth to work. What does he need his vehicle for? Safe transportation and the occasional zoom to pass a guy on the freeway. This guy has driven Ford, Chevy, or Dodge for his entire life. His father drove the same truck brand for all of his life. These people are the extreme of brand loyalty. Their Chevy's, Dodge's and Ford's have 200,000+ miles. There is no way they will switch to a foreign brand vehicle that costs more and one they've never driven in their life.

    This leaves one market segment, the segment i like to think of as only 10% large. This is the high school guys with dad's pocket book that only look at the 380 hp rating and the biased against American, import buyer wanting a change from a car/suv. These are the guys who have the extra money to spend and are willing to take a risk. These are the Nissan Titan buyers, all 70,000 annual sales of them.

    In the end the Tundra has awesome horsepower for a 1/2 ton and is the best effort so far by a Japanese company into the 1/2 truck market. But with this power comes a hefty price tag. Your going to hit the $40k price tag if you want all 380 horses. You can get the Sierra Denali with 400+ horsepower around that price. With that kind of price tag, they have also priced themselves into the 3/4 diesel market. A diesel that gets better gas mileage and tons more power, there's no comparison. The diesel wins every time. Don't forget, Toyota is going to be way off of their projected 200,000 sales. They are only on track to sell maybe 150,000. That's right, Toyota has already started the incentives games to try to raise sells. I guess this is Toyota's response to only selling 61,113 Tundra's since the end of May. This is also combined with 2002-06 Tundra sales sold in the beginning of the year as well.

    As i said before, the fact Toyota is a company with a pretty bad 1/2 truck history and an extremly higher priced vehicle speaks volumes. I just don't see this Tundra being anymore successful than the 2 previous generation of Tundra's that were suppose to change the ballgame with the truck market.

  16. #36
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 2007 Toyota Tundra - be afraid, Detroit... be very afraid!

    All your points are well-taken; the only thing I'd say in response is that Toyota (and Honda) were in a similar position with their passenger cars circa 1972. The learn from their mistakes and aggressively improve their product - and do so quickly. They won't sit on their hands and leave the Tundra as is for three years. I'd bet on a major mid-cycle change and, in five years' time, that they have begun to successfully penetrate the light truck market... .

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