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Thread: Where Is The Threat To America?

  1. #1
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    Where Is The Threat To America?

    As a kid, you know how things sometime become so vivid. ... Sad to see Middle America wasting itself on a regious/civil war, and it's so silly.

    I also knew a lot of very silent men who 'served' in WW2. El Alamein. Crete. One guy in the Royal Navy on the only oil-tanker which made it into there in '42 crippled and with frigates also hit, 18 ships 5 made it. damaged and leaking with dead and dying men on board, half-powered frigates strapped to the sides of its hull, walked in a under 5 knots, two engines going, one intermittent TWELVE operational Spitfires could be re-fuelled against Rommel's reinforcements in North Aftrica.

    This is what Colleen does not get. And JDM has some sort of block about.

    And what makes the adagio in Brahms 2 Piano so strangely brilliant... a change of key when all is fading, it could have been the German boys in the JU 88s... but it wasn't. Germans, patriotic Germans, brilliant Stuka dive-bombers while ships weaved below them. They has no idea about death camps. They were doing their job.
    This is what I have tried to suggest is wrong with the USA now. Middle America has no collective understanding of the blood and guts of war.

    JDM is far better read than myself and I ain't dumb. He hates the way I go pacificist war but it's detail we could could work out.
    And now I get constant E-mails saying how evil the Arabs are... not from JDM

    I get a steady stream of E-mail from bright intelligent people, mostly old, who prefer to offer the US view, not an Arab one.
    Yet I hear interviews with Arab and Iranian... which doesn't get to America, except in perhaps quite academic ways.

    None of the writers of the E-mails are dumb. They are US born and bred.
    As far as I know only Dennis has fired in anger. May be wrong. He knows what it feels like, though, and maybe he got command because he has such a mind to deal with men like these WW2 friends of mine, it was Korea.
    My mate's father was an RAF WW2 Bomber Squadron Commander in 1943 and 1944. He survived early raids. As you know early bombing raids were very complex. Stalingrad was still like a stalemate and only the highest people got information. Rommel had been defeated. Britain had the Med. under air mostly. The factories in the English Midlands were flat-out making Lancasters and Spitfires long before the US helped, except for Boeings. You guys were fully engaged with Japanese. German factories were flat-out making MEs and tanks. Occupied France was relatively quiet.
    Germany would have made peace with the West in 1943 but for the Presidential Style of Hitler.

    Look at it.
    The military people sought to stop the war in the West. But the rise of Stalin, well, that where it all becomes attrition and control of resources.

    Dresden was a bit like Hiroshima. 'We' will prevail.
    And 'we' defend freedom.


    What threat did Iraq pose? Is it still religious?




  2. #2
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    "What threat did Iraq pose? Is it still religious?"

    The "threat" was at most theoretical - and hyped to silly proportions. It depended, too, upon a conflation of Saddam/Iraq with al Qaeda and radical Islam. Many Americans did not (and still do not) understand that not all Middle Easterners are "A-rabs" (or Islamic radicals) let alone that the regime of Saddam Hussein was a secular/socialist one that was very much at odds with the religious radicals who attacked the U.S. on 9/11.

    Part of the "background" to the US invasion is the neo-conservative movement, a political ideology that is heavily represented among officials of the Bush Administration. These neo-cons (including Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, John Bolton, etc.) sought "regime change" in Iraq as long ago as the mid-1990s - and heavily agitated for it. They also pushed the idea that the Middle East could be (and ought to be) "democratized" - by force of US arms, if need be.

    When Bush got elected in 2000, many of these neocons became influential power brokers - who subsequently used their position to push for their Iraq/Middle Eastern agenda. When 9/11 happened, they amped up the rhetoric and over-exaggerated the "threat" presented by Iraq (while minimizing evidence to the contrary) and, at the same time, deliberately fostered the impression that Iraq/Saddam were involved in the 9/11 attacks - and that the country was preparing to either nuke or gas us. "9/11" and "Iraq" were endlessly package-dealed by reference together in the same sentence/sound bite. There were even overt claims made by Cheney and others (later retracted/discredited) about some "connection" between Saddam's regime and al Qaeda. The "WMD" bogey was hyped relentlessly - even after it became clear that no such threat in fact existed or was even a near-term possibility.

    This scared the public (and Congress) silly. The country rushed headlong into a war in Iraq; critical/questioning voices were shouted down as "unpatriotic" and/or "with them" (the enemy), etc. Thus was the focus on bin Laden and al Qaeda shifted to Iraq and Saddam - and now we find ourselves embroiled in a fratricidal civi war over ancient religious and ethnic hatreds we cannot control. The country is certainly less stable and more internally violent now than it was under Saddam, too - and arguably (indeed, by the estimates of our own intelligence agencies) more of a terrorist threat to the US now than under Saddam.

    Give it another few months of mayhem and body counts; public discontent will rise to a point that even congressional Republicans will have no choice but to force the Chimp's hand - and begin the withdrawal.

    The wild card is Iran. If The Chimp does what some (including me) believe he desperately wants to do in order to continue his broader agenda and resurrect the fear and rah-rah patriotism that got us into Iraq - we may be in for a much wider conflict than the one he's already gotten us into.

    I hope saner heads prevail - and that, somehow, either people within the government or the military figure out a way to stop The Chimp - perhaps by publicly rebuking him (as the several generals did in the recent past). There is a rumor afoot that at least one current high-ranking general would publicly resign if The Chimp attempts to ignite a conflict with Iran.









  3. #3
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    neocons became influential power brokers - who subsequently used their position to push for their Iraq/Middle Eastern agenda. When 9/11 happened, they amped up the rhetoric and over-exaggerated the "threat" presented by Iraq (while minimizing evidence to the contrary) and, at the same time, deliberately fostered the impression that Iraq/Saddam were involved in the 9/11 attacks - and that the country was preparing to either nuke or gas us. "9/11" and "Iraq" were endlessly package-dealed by reference together in the same sentence/sound bite. There were even overt claims made by Cheney and others (later retracted/discredited) about some "connection"
    Do you think these promoters of the war in Iraq were motivated by Cold War mentality? Religion? Israel? or sheer greed?

    The scary thing is that Rumsfield appears to believe his own rhetoric.

  4. #4
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    "Do you think these promoters of the war in Iraq were motivated by Cold War mentality? Religion? Israel? or sheer greed?"

    I think elements of all those things undergird the ideology.

    What's new (and unhinged) is the absence of realism from foreign policy considerations. In my entire life, I have never been as alarmed by political events as I am at this moment. I think we are closer to a massive conflagration now than we've been since the Cuban Missile Crisis - only this time, we're being pushed into the abyss not be cold calculations of Realpolitik, but rather by a theocratic neo-fascism that dresses itself up in red white and blue, with a cross in its lapel and a "support the troops" bumper sticker on the back of its SUV....


  5. #5
    gail
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Those who have not been affected by danger, tend to believe that no danger exist. We see this everyday. So it is with war. It does not personally effect us, so there must not be a danger, goes the rationale. Afterall, there hasn't been another 9-11, or has there? Remember the collapse of the bridge on I-40? Was that really a faulty bulwark and that the barge actually could knock down? Or was it another attack? What about the train derailments? Are some activities being kept from the public to prevent panic the same way incidences were kept secret in WWII. Conspiracy theories? Maybe. Maybe not.

    One thing that goes through my mind is that none of us are privy to top secret information, nor advice from the experts. Could it be that none of us are qualified to make rash statement for or against the war? It seems to me that the post are little more than idle curiosity and each of us will one day appear foolish, both those, like me who support the war, and on the other side, such as so many on this forum who do not.

    I hear the chatter that war is about politics. Since this concept is causing the demise of many in office, and low ratings for our President, I would venture to state that it isn't about politics, but I, like you - do not know.

    Some say it is about oil, I question this concept too. We have lots of oil in our own domain, and from friendly countries willing to sell. and, besides, if it is a war about oil - why don't the dissenters quit driving gas-guzzling vehicles, traveling here and there to protest the war and otherwise quit wasting this precious commodity?

    For those that feel we should bow to the whims of other countries, I might ask, "Why?" I don't know if we are the richest country in the world or not. I know that I am content in my lifestyle. My Grandma would tell me when I would come home from school with hurt feeling over the way someone had treated me, she would say, "They are just jealous, dear." As I become older, I saw that her wisdom was true, not only about me, but of others as well. The rich, the beautiful, the young, those who are thin -- add to the list as you see fit.

    I happen to be one who supports President Bush and the Iraqi War. I am personally delighted that he has stood his ground. He knows that he is the Commander-in-Chief, and I feel it is great that he has the faith and confidence in himself to do what he believes to be right. He does not waver. Yet, I have no proof that he is correct, and I can only support him, and pray that the privileged information is correct and correct. I do stand amazed at how many people don't seem to understand this concept though. I remember a comment that President Truman made about his very controversial firing of General MacArthur, he said, "There is only one person in charge here, and it is me!" (paraphase: maybe Don can find the actual quote Nancy Pelosi isn't in charge, nor Harry Reid, and Eric isn't the 'Decided.'

    I truly believe that this War is all in our best interest - - -

    - - - But, I will wait and see you may be right.

  6. #6
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    There was a threat that the military were becoming lazy and inexperienced, and not enough money was being flushed through the major military contractors. Therefore, war with Iraq was necessary to keep the pumps primed.

  7. #7
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    ". Afterall, there hasn't been another 9-11, or has there? Remember the collapse of the bridge on I-40? Was that really a faulty bulwark and that the barge actually could knock down? Or was it another attack? What about the train derailments? Are some activities being kept from the public to prevent panic the same way incidences were kept secret in WWII. Conspiracy theories? Maybe. Maybe not."

    Your vague insinuations have as much factual support as the conspiracy theorists' nonsense about 9/11 itself. Meaning - none. You're trotting out a straw man - and it can be dismissed out of hand.

    "One thing that goes through my mind is that none of us are privy to top secret information, nor advice from the experts. Could it be that none of us are qualified to make rash statement for or against the war?"

    As opposed to brilliant experts like.. The Chimp? And solons like Wolfowitz? You asign credibility where none exists - and seem willing to defer to people who have made a huge mess of things. I'm not one of those people.





  8. #8
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    There was a threat that the military were becoming lazy and inexperienced, and not enough money was being flushed through the major military contractors. Therefore, war with Iraq was necessary to keep the pumps primed.
    Except that we've got an over-stretched military and beleagured National Guard - and could not deal with another major emergency if it came up.

  9. #9
    TC
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmcg

    What threat did Iraq pose? Is it still religious?

    Where is the threat to America, you ask.
    Read these two web sites and you may find it is closer to home that you thought.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn05312007.html

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...070509-12.html

  10. #10
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric

    Except that we've got an over-stretched military and beleagured National Guard - and could not deal with another major emergency if it came up.
    I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

    Your professional soldiery is more and more composed of people who have bad records in things like assault and rape. Your Chief of Staff has to weigh the call of Army who want simple things like full combat gear, the Air Force who want the finest military planes, and the Navy, who can deliver awesome power anywhere. You have untrained soldiers doing second tours.

    JDM calls the Brits of 1914 'inept'... well hello?

    I read a measure in 'Time' which measured over 4% of your GNP in military. It was near 9% at the height of Vietnam. But that can be doctored either way.

    Gail's expression of concern about highway collapses ... well, no, Gail. German do not eat babies. [WW1 ]
    In fact in those dark days on Christmas Eve 1914 men came out of the trenches and swapped photos and sang carols in actual harmony. You cannot listen to any of the great classical composers without feeling a bit sorry for the soldiers, almost none of whom survived.


  11. #11
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by TC
    Quote Originally Posted by robmcg

    What threat did Iraq pose? Is it still religious?

    Where is the threat to America, you ask.
    Read these two web sites and you may find it is closer to home that you thought.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn05312007.html

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...070509-12.html
    Amazing this got so little coverage; the media is vile and worthless.

    But The Chimp and all he stands for so much worse.

    If I were religious, I'd say God help us.

  12. #12
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmcg


    JDM calls the Brits of 1914 'inept'... well hello?

    I said no such thing, what I said was that the leadership was inept in the 1914 war. As fighting soldiers and sailors, the Brits were as good as any and better than most.

  13. #13
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    Those who have not been affected by danger, tend to believe that no danger exist. We see this everyday. So it is with war. It does not personally effect us, so there must not be a danger, goes the rationale.
    Maybe that's why countries such as France & Germany, indeed all of mainland Europe, will not get involved in the US's warmongering? Having seen their countries totally destroyed twice in the last century, they probably don't want to inflict such misery on the inhabitants of other countries to support the US's insatiable appetite for oil?

    Just a thought.

    Funny, isn't it? When I was a baby, Germans were dropping bombs on me; maybe that's why I see war as a last resort, not, as your dimwitted president appears to think, the first option.

  14. #14
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    "Funny, isn't it? When I was a baby, Germans were dropping bombs on me; maybe that's why I see war as a last resort, not, as your dimwitted president appears to think, the first option."

    The Chimp's doctrine of "pre-emptive" war is highly radical; it breaks with previous tradition that war is, indeed, a last resort.

    And leaving aside philosophical questions, as a practical matter, the US doesn't have the means or will to enage in these "pre-emptive" wars.

    We're bogged down in Iraq and The Chimp is itching to expand the conflict to Iran.

    Germany made the same mistake in WWII.


  15. #15
    mrblanche
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Brand
    Maybe that's why countries such as France & Germany, indeed all of mainland Europe, will not get involved in the US's warmongering? Having seen their countries totally destroyed twice in the last century, they probably don't want to inflict such misery on the inhabitants of other countries to support the US's insatiable appetite for oil?
    England, Italy, Spain, and other European countries HAVE sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Germany didn't because it can't, legally.

    France didn't because they don't help anyone...not even themselves.

  16. #16
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    "England, Italy, Spain, and other European countries HAVE sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq."

    In very small numbers. A token contingent. Spain has pulled its troops out of Iraq; Britain is in the process of doing so.

    "France didn't because they don't help anyone...not even themselves."

    I don't udnerstand the anti-French animus many Americans have. They are cultured people and not deluded by sentimental BS about nations having "friends." France pursues her own interests - without apology. That her interests and those of the US do not always coincide is not a great surprise, is it? And why is it that Americans feel every other nation must always and reflexively hew to the American view of things?

  17. #17
    mrblanche
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    I don't udnerstand the anti-French animus many Americans have. They are cultured people and not deluded by sentimental BS about nations having "friends." France pursues her own interests - without apology. That her interests and those of the US do not always coincide is not a great surprise, is it? And why is it that Americans feel every other nation must always and reflexively hew to the American view of things?
    As someone with a French heritage (notice the name?), a study of French history, and living in France, I have to say I like the French people, individually. And yes, they do pursue their own interests. Each and every one of them. That's why they have over 100 political parties that actually put representatives in their legislature, and why their legislature rarely gets anything done. And why, when attacked, they will have the most passionate collaborationists and the most passionate underground.

    But, as a world partner, they are absolutely useless, unless you need a screwdriver thrown in the works to keep anything from being done.

  18. #18
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    "But, as a world partner, they are absolutely useless, unless you need a screwdriver thrown in the works to keep anything from being done."

    I have no clue what you mean by "world partner"- or why France would want to "partner" with a nation/policy it doesn't agree with... .

    France was right to stay out of Iraq - as Britain and Spain had to learn the hard way.

  19. #19
    gail
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?


    Informant Helped Thwart JFK Terror Plot
    Convicted Drug-Dealer Began Working for Feds in 2004


    http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles...02123409990001

  20. #20
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    Re: Where Is The Threat To America?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    England, Italy, Spain, and other European countries HAVE sent troops to Afghanistan and Iraq.
    England has sent no troops to Afghanistan, Iraq, or anywhere else. The United Kingdom, however, has.

    The big difference here is that the UK has been directly involved in the USA's illegal invasions, not part of the so-called 'peace-keeping force' or whatever. It's a matter of degree possibly, but as I see it, we share the USA's guilt; the rest of Europe doesn't.

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