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Thread: Was History in Black and White?

  1. #1
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    Was History in Black and White?

    Trying to work out events in the Middle East will be writ in history as, I suspect, an Imperialist misadventure after 9/11.

    Much of my appreciation of war and conflict comes from books to do with WW1 and WW2. The illustrations were almost always in black and white. As a child I read books which showed up-turned hulls of battleships in WW1 and hundreds of figures either on the hull or in the water. It was the kind of book which extolled the greatness of the British Empire. Other books examine the war in detail. WW1 deserters in the labour-strikes, objectors, WW2 flyers,, I've met and talked with some. Some were in merchant convoys in the Med in 1942.

    As a child I didn't understand the nature of war, let alone the injuries and fast and slow deaths. But when these guys all dead now got going they, well, to put it bluntly, wept.

    s a child I couldn't understand why Britain in 1919 scuttled the entire German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow... they were beautiful ships. I see many in America seeing beauty in weapons of war. Discarding the trench war of 1915-1918 as stupid, yet devoting more and more energy to an enemy which is invisible, and is recently concentrated on stemming the inevitable rise of Muslim power and its ownership of its own land and nukes. Funded mostly by Westen oil money.

    This seems to me to be an age-old need, tribal, to make the world into 'enemy' and 'friend', and I think that secular government is a better than religious. I visited one of the old psychiatric hospitals in the 1970s when my wife worked there, and took what I now know know were illegal photos, and one or two of the patients were ordinary people but saw the world entirely as 'enemy' and 'friend'.

    It is this black-white view of the world in the US and Islam. Good-bad. Which already has the US sanctioning tribal Israel land grabs and recent inhumane bombing of Lebanon. I dont see the US able to avoid worse stuff, because you have your gun-totin' mentality. We need to kill and protect ours... in other places like the UK I shudder when I see women wearing the full garb. I see this as a reaction to essentially economc things, unemployment, complex things.

    9/11 gave a terrible shock to what I call civilisation. Nuking the entire Middle East is not an option.
    Nor is ignoring the religious people at both ends, Christian-Muslim.

    I am a very inconsequential individual and my opinions are less than pimple on the face of a 14yr-old girl, but I do subscribe to power to retain freedom.

    What I would like from this forum is some idea of what the US ought to do.


  2. #2
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    "As a child I couldn't understand why Britain in 1919 scuttled the entire German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow... they were beautiful ships. "

    I may be getting sensescent, but I recall that it was the Germans themselves, who, after the surrender , sailed to Scapa Flow and scuttled their own ships. Not the Brits. It was a final act of defiance, ec.

    "9/11 gave a terrible shock to what I call civilisation. Nuking the entire Middle East is not an option.
    Nor is ignoring the religious people at both ends, Christian-Muslim."

    Absolutely - and in the fever that ensued, we were misledinto attacking a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, on the basis of highly dubious "intelligence" - and by an inept braggart who, through his incapacity to listen to anyone who challenges his "gut," has us waist deep in a pool of quicksand. Ah ahm the Decider! And ah dee-cide what is right!

    "What I would like from this forum is some idea of what the US ought to do."

    * Deal with terrorism as it has previously been dealt with - as a law-enforcement (not military) issue primarily. No more idiot talk of a "war" against a method. (The misuse of "war" in our language has become an embarrassment, from the "war" on drugs to the "war" on poverty... much of it presided over by "czars" of various types. What the hell?)

    * Acknowledge the legitimate grievances of the Arab/Muslim world against the United States - including our reprehensible history of supporting tyrants (the Shah, Saddam) and of interfering in the affairs of their countries.

    * No more reflexive, unilateral support for Israel right or wrong. Deal with all the countries and peoples of the Middle East equitably.

    * Nor more trying to force-feed "democracy" (or "free markets") on other peoples. They leave us alone, we leave them alone. Mutual respect - and mutual non-interference/aggression.

    * Scale back the US presence - esp. military presence - overseas. Return the country to a posture of genuine self-defense, not "pre-emptive" war (or "nation building" of any sort).

    All this with the caveat that any future attack against us will be met with as much force as necessary.

    This would be a start...








  3. #3
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    "As a child I couldn't understand why Britain in 1919 scuttled the entire German High Seas Fleet at Scapa Flow... they were beautiful ships. "

    I may be getting sensescent, but I recall that it was the Germans themselves, who, after the surrender , sailed to Scapa Flow and scuttled their own ships. Not the Brits. It was a final act of defiance, ec.

    "9/11 gave a terrible shock to what I call civilisation. Nuking the entire Middle East is not an option.
    Nor is ignoring the religious people at both ends, Christian-Muslim."

    Absolutely - and in the fever that ensured, we were misledinto attacking a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, on the basis of highly dubious "intelligence" - and by an inept braggart who, through his incapacity to listen to anyone who challenges his "gut," has us waist deep in a pool of quicksand. Ah ahm the Decider! And ah dee-cide what is right!

    "What I would like from this forum is some idea of what the US ought to do."

    * Deal with terrorism as it has previously been dealt with it - as a law-enforcement (not military) issue primarily. No more idiot talk of a "war" against a method. (The misuse of "war" in our language has become an embarrassment, from the "war" on drugs to the "war" on poverty... much of it presided over by "czars" of various types. What the hell?)

    * Acknowledge the legitimate grievances of the Arab/Muslim world against the United States - including our reprehensible history of supporting tyrants (the Shah, Saddam) and of interfering in the affairs of their countries.

    * No more reflexive, unilateral support for Israel right or wrong. Deal with all the countries and peoples of the Middle East equitably.

    * Nor more trying to force-feed "democracy" (or "free markets") on other peoples. They leave us alone, we leave them alone. Mutual respect - and mutual non-interference/aggression.

    * Scale back the US presence - esp. military presence - overseas. Return the country to a posture of genuine self-defense, not "pre-emptive" war (or "nation building" of any sort).

    All this with the caveat that any future attack against us will be met with as much force as necessary.

    This would be a start...







    I'll vote for that platform. Are you running as an independent, or GOP?

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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Thanks.

    There is hope.

    And MDecibel yes the Germans had to ail their own ships in 1919 to Scapa Flow and scuttle them. They had lost the war.

  5. #5
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by robmcg
    Thanks.

    There is hope.

    And MDecibel yes the Germans had to ail their own ships in 1919 to Scapa Flow and scuttle them. They had lost the war.
    Why is that addressed to me? I don't recall mentioning the German ships.

    And you can call me Dave.

  6. #6
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    If I ran for anything (zero desire to ever hold public office of any kind!) it would probably be as a Libertarian/Independent, since the GOP has become a mishmash of corporate statism, militarism and fundamentalist Christianity. It pays lip service to conservatism, then undermines it with every policy it pursues - from open borders/unchecked illegal immigration to massive increases in federal spending and federal usurpation of authority, etc.

    I am gravitating to the belief that the country has become ungovernable - or at least, not governable by a limited government that actually represents the people (vs. corporations, the military industrial complex and other large, big-money special interests).

    I don't say this lightly, but perhaps a peaceful dissolution into smaller republics would be a goal worth pursuing...?

  7. #7
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Eric -
    Interesting factoid for you:
    In the latest newsletter, the Libertarian Party says they've noticed an increase in new members that put "Military" down as their occupation (your occupation is required to be given under federal election laws).

    They think part of this was a result of their efforts to get the Libertarian, Green, etc. parties listed with the Federal Voting Assistance Program. The others aren't really explained, but are likely the result of disenchantment with the status quo.

    Chip H.

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  8. #8
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    I am gravitating to the belief that the country has become ungovernable - or at least, not governable by a limited government that actually represents the people (vs. corporations, the military industrial complex and other large, big-money special interests).

    I don't say this lightly, but perhaps a peaceful dissolution into smaller republics would be a goal worth pursuing...?
    I think that the Democratic and the Republican parties do not represent the people at all, but the special interest and elite groups.
    Our vote now is of no consequence because the elites and the military industrial complex have it their way regardless of which party is in power.
    72% of people polled want our troops out of Iraq, so what did the Dems do to satisfy that wish when it came to funding the President's request for more funding for his war?

  9. #9
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    "I think that the Democratic and the Republican parties do not represent the people at all, but the special interest and elite groups.
    Our vote now is of no consequence because the elites and the military industrial complex have it their way regardless of which party is in power.
    72% of people polled want our troops out of Iraq, so what did the Dems do to satisfy that wish when it came to funding the President's request for more funding for his war?"

    Exactly. It's the same with regard to controlling (read: stopping) unchecked illegal immigration; regardless of poll/survey, a massive majority wants something done - yet nothng gets done - because the coprorations (and thus the GOP) want the influx of cheap workers to depress wages generally and keep the people insecure economically - while the Democrats see a new pool of "constituents" that will keep them in power via the dispensing of various entitlements.

    The average American gets screwed in the process.

    I wonder how long we'll stand for it?

  10. #10
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    Eric -
    Interesting factoid for you:
    In the latest newsletter, the Libertarian Party says they've noticed an increase in new members that put "Military" down as their occupation (your occupation is required to be given under federal election laws).

    They think part of this was a result of their efforts to get the Libertarian, Green, etc. parties listed with the Federal Voting Assistance Program. The others aren't really explained, but are likely the result of disenchantment with the status quo.

    Chip H.
    That is interesting... perhaps we are approaching a Rubicon of sorts? My sense of it is that average Americans are becoming increasingly alienated from the government - and in particular, from the governing elites of both major parties. There is open contempt, even outright hostility - and the underlying vibe seems to be a loss of legitimacy. The government governs - by force and fraud and because the average person feels helpless. Indeed, is helpless. But - and this is key - it no longer governs with the support of the people. More and more Americans would like to see fundamental change, it seems to me. And when the government no longer lays claim to the apporval of the average citizen, it is in essence a tyranny - whether "soft" or "hard" or something in between.

    I believe we have reached that point - and that people are beginning to face up to it....

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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Fine, Eric, fine.

    But if one utters the words of Thomas Jefferson, there is every likelihood that somebody carry carrying a Smith or a Glock will be knocking at you door early one morning.

  12. #12
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Fine, Eric, fine.

    But if one utters the words of Thomas Jefferson, there is every likelihood that somebody carry carrying a Smith or a Glock will be knocking at you door early one morning.
    I'm not reading you on that one....

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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    That is interesting... perhaps we are approaching a Rubicon of sorts? My sense of it is that average Americans are becoming increasingly alienated from the government - and in particular, from the governing elites of both major parties.
    It's interesting especially because the military has traditionally been very conservative (even their liberals are conservative!)

    So to see an increase like this portents many things...

    Chip H.

    Former owner: 2012 Honda Civic LX, 2006 Honda Ridgeline RTL, 2000 Honda CR-V EX, 2003 MINI Cooper S, 1992 Honda Accord LX, 1999 Mercedes ML-320, 1995 VW Jetta GLX, 1991 Mercury Capri XR2, 1981 Mercury Zephyr, 1975 Chevrolet Impala

  14. #14
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    That is interesting... perhaps we are approaching a Rubicon of sorts? My sense of it is that average Americans are becoming increasingly alienated from the government - and in particular, from the governing elites of both major parties.
    It's interesting especially because the military has traditionally been very conservative (even their liberals are conservative!)

    So to see an increase like this portents many things...

    Chip H.
    Yes, exactly. I have tried to point this out to die-hard Bush backers like Mike, by the way. There are probably millions of disaffected old-school conservatives who are repelled by Bush and the neo-con dominated modern GOP.

    Remember what Reagan said once about the Demoratic Party? The same now applies to the GOP. Only now there's no other party (with any hope of achieving office) to turn to....

  15. #15
    mrblanche
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    It's interesting especially because the military has traditionally been very conservative (even their liberals are conservative!)

    So to see an increase like this portents many things...

    Chip H.
    You don't get much more "conservative" than the Libertarian party. At least, on most public issues. It's on the private issues (drug legalization, etc.) that they get liberal.

    The Democrats (and especially Al Gore) lost in a huge way when they tried to ensure that no military absentee ballots would be counted in the Florida vote in 2000.

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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Fine, Eric, fine.

    But if one utters the words of Thomas Jefferson, there is every likelihood that somebody carry carrying a Smith or a Glock will be knocking at you door early one morning.
    I'm not reading you on that one....
    And they will be wearing dark suits with narrow lapens and narrow ties.

    http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/...s/jeff1770.htm

    "When patience has begotten false estimates of its motives, when wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality." --Thomas Jefferson to M. deStael, 1807. ME 11:282

    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." --Thomas Jefferson: his motto.


    http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/...s/jeff0300.htm

    "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?" --Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372

    "I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms are in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people, which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is medicine necessary for the sound health of government." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:65

    "What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356


    Mr. Jefferson was big on rebellions, at least successful ones.





  17. #17
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Yes... .

    And I believe that we are nearing the point at which either a revolution will take place or this country will descend into overt authoritarianism. We're already half-way into the quicksand.

    A key difference, though, between "then" and "now" is the torpor and ignorance of the average person. So long as they have their cell phones, religion and Bic Macs, they are quiescent.

  18. #18
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    We're far too complacent to rebel. It won't happen unless the middle class is wiped out.

  19. #19
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    We're far too complacent to rebel. It won't happen unless the middle class is wiped out.
    I hate to agree with you, but I do... .

    I believe authoritarianism - if not an outright dictatorship ( not of an individual, perhaps - but of a small elite of wealthy power brokers working with the military and corporations) is inevitable. And likely to emerge sooner rather than later.

  20. #20
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    Re: Was History in Black and White?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Yes... .

    And I believe that we are nearing the point at which either a revolution will take place or this country will descend into overt authoritarianism. We're already half-way into the quicksand.

    A key difference, though, between "then" and "now" is the torpor and ignorance of the average person. So long as they have their cell phones, religion and Bic Macs, they are quiescent.
    If my understanding is correct, at the time of the Revolution the average person was just as quiescent; the majority were for doing nothing.

    This country may not fail from within but follow the Roman model be over run (one way or the next) by those from the outside.

    No more pig meat but clothing will be simpler, any king size bed sheet will do.


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