Just thought you might like to listen to the segment of yesterday's "On the Media" from NPR regarding atheism.
Seems like Eric has been living by their operations manual, which is to publicly and loudly (and rudely) ridicule religion at every opportunity, in hopes of making religion wither away.
http://www.onthemedia.org/episodes/2...segments/83666
You're really not being fair... I don't ridicule religious belief, per se. What I ridicule and condemn is overt, belligerent public religiosity - in particular, the pushy know-nothing-ism of evangelical Christianity. The "in your face" proselytizing; the public braying about being "saved" and advocacy of theocratic "dominion."Originally Posted by mrblanche
As an aside: I am not an atheist; but I do not believe in the tenets of Christianity. Evangelicals do not allow such a distinction.
Shall I call it to your attention the next time you ridicule beliefs? Because you do that all the time. I'm with you on any "pushy" behavior by any religion, ideology, or whatever. That is the libertarian ideal. "Just leave others alone." But what someone believes is up to them, and whatever it might be--Christianity, Islam, global warming, or the superiority of carburetors--is up to them, and not my job to ridicule. Logic and evidence will either win out, or they will have to hold their beliefs by sheer dint of faith effort, but it's their loss, not mine.
To adopt a policy of publicly and loudly ridiculing others' beliefs in hopes of changing those beliefs is adopt the tactics of the bullies everywhere, of every ilk.
That's not to say some beliefs aren't worth fighting or even dying for, but that's any entirely different discussion.
"Shall I call it to your attention the next time you ridicule beliefs?"
Apparently, I haven't made myself clear. I only ridicule when religion is thrust into my face - as, for instance, when someone uses the Bible as an argument to support criticism of gays or as support for creation "science."
I agree with Sam Harris that nonsensical public utterances shouldn't be given a pass by dint of their being "religious." Idiocy is idiocy - and when you bring it forth for public examination, don't expect not to be ridiculed for it.
I think that "tolerance" is highly overrated.
I agree - esp. when it comes to tolerance of views that would, absent the religious context, prompt immediate, derisive laughter. Or at least, cause the intelligence (or sanity) of the person holding such views to come into serious question.
Example: Surely I would open myself to (and expect) ridicule if I insisted that I was given a secret book or special knowledge - or claimed to have been visited at night by the ghost of Elvis, who taught me "the way."
Yet fundamentally similar claims made in a religious context we're supposed to "respect."
Why?
It's one thing (to me) to acknowledge our finite abilities, to marvel at the infinite - and to wonder how it all came to be (and where it may be headed). But to insist that the Bible (or Koran, or whatever) is sole repository of the "truth" - and not to expect ridicule for doing so - goes beyond what I can personally support.
Yeah, we wouldn't want any excess civility around here, would we?
Where does a healthy cynicism end, and shooting start?
What you're missing, I think, is that it's awfully hard to be civil toward that which is intolerant - evangelical Christianity, for example.Yeah, we wouldn't want any excess civility around here, would we?
Where does a healthy cynicism end, and shooting start?
Seems like Eric has been living by their operations manual, which is to publicly and loudly (and rudely) ridicule religion at every opportunity, in hopes of making religion wither away.
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It seems to me that the problem with atheism is that it's the world's most difficult religion. One must be constantly on guard to avoid all superstitions and for that matter, all claims of fact not supported by hard evidence.
For one thing, the Big Bang theory is out the window, not for a lack of evidence but for iys implications.
"It seems to me that the problem with atheism is that it's the world's most difficult religion. One must be constantly on guard to avoid all superstitions and for that matter, all claims of fact not supported by hard evidence.
For one thing, the Big Bang theory is out the window, not for a lack of evidence but for iys implications."
Mike implies that I'm an atheist, even though I have never so stated. Just because one rejects Christianity doesn't mean one rules out spirituality/belief in the possibility (or even likelihood) of something "behind the curtain."
Who knows?
I sure don't - and don't claim to. I am open to any reasonable conception/argument, however.
But I can say with confidence that the Abrahamic Sky God of burnt offerings, talking bushes and virgin births, etc. isn't reasonable or credible - and many of the assertions and doctrines of Christianity unintelligible, contradictory and (in certain areas) loathsome.
Lemme see: Bar B Que, a little action in the bushes and a valid disclaimer? Toss in a jug of wine and it works for me. Or was there some other meaning?
Well, if you take out all the hate-filled scheisse about slaying people who don't share inthe belief system - or happen to be sitting on land you want to take over, etc. I'd be ok with the rest!Lemme see: Bar B Que, a little action in the bushes and a valid disclaimer? Toss in a jug of wine and it works for me. Or was there some other meaning?
As long as it's barbecued pork, I'm all for it. But if God denied pork to his chosen people, then he must have chosen them for special punishment.
"Seems like Eric has been living by their operations manual, which is to publicly and loudly (and rudely) ridicule religion at every opportunity, in hopes of making religion wither away."
[color=blue]I think that's more me than Eric. IMAO, all people should try to live in the real world, not in the dreamworld of superstitious religious nonsense or other such drugs.
I am very religionphobic. But you cannot blame me too much, because being openly gay I have to listen to religious superstitious nonsense and how I am going to hell and all that nonsense all the time. I just wish they would help me make the trip!
And the main thing people use against gays in politics is religious nonsense, which should not even be considered. There's enough nonsense in our government as it is, even without the religious nonsense.
Our current President Bush got elected because of his stance on gay marriage and so he got the religious vote and now we have to put up with his stupid war in Iraq because of it.
I think of religions as evil, in perhaps most cases, just as with other drugs for people to get high on.
Religious nonsense is what lead to what happened on 9-11-01.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
- Blaise Pascal
-Don Quoteman
I don't understand, Mike, your fear of rationaliism.
Unlike Don I am not gay, but DO understand the vagaries of life, and really don't 'get' your Christian undertone.
Frankly, in all posts over the years, with a fair bit of life-and-death, I don't quite get your angle on some conservative farming God-fearing view.
There are times in life when you meet obstacles.. I think you ought to read a bit of anthropology before you take a stand on political things, but I guess you left teaching... why...?
I would be dismayed if you taught my kids.
Actually, I doubt you would be. Because I would teach them that even those who love trains are to be loved and respected rather than pitied, despite their clearly irrational view of the world.
And, I would like to point out here I have not criticized atheism. Did you notice that? I only criticized what some of them said was their personal agenda, and what should be the agenda of all atheists: Loudly and rudely ridicule the beliefs of others in hopes of making those beliefs disappear.
Now, that has been the policy of many people over the years, but I've never seen it work yet. All it does is create animosity.
And your silly personal attacks are really not appreciated. You don't have a corner on wisdom or world-knowledge. You're not well-traveled, and you resisted my one attempt to expose you to a little wider experience in the U.S. If I had a student in history who continued to insist that the Holocaust never happened, he would probably fail history class, because he clearly had no concept of what history meant.
And I have argued FOR rationality here, if you hadn't noticed. I just argue for decency in discourse. Yelling, "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG," at the top of one's voice proves nothing and alienates those you might like to convince.
And you'll notice I've never complained about all the train pictures.
I'm not gay, but I hate gay-bashing and the unctuous religiosity that's so often behind it.
And like you, I'm tired of having these beliefs pushed on me - as, for example, the need evangelicals often seem to feel to bring up how they got "saved" or ask you about church even thiugh you've just met them and hardly know them. It's cloying, suffocating - and offensive.
From their perspective, of course, they're just "spreading the good news" - and can't comprehend that anyone might not see Jesus as "the answer." But the firmness and conviction of their belief doesn't excuse their proselytizing in my book. I'm extremely rude and hostile even to them when they show up unbidden on my property.
So...it's OK for you to be rude and hostile with your beliefs, but not for them to be even a little pushy?
And here's my point: NO ONE should be rude, hostile, or pushy. There are just too many of us for that.
"So...it's OK for you to be rude and hostile with your beliefs, but not for them to be even a little pushy?"
When they are trespassing on MY property....forcing me to respond to THEIR pushy religious BS on my own front porch?
Hell yes.
They can't be trespassing, unless you have previously denied them entrance. That's a concept you might not be acquainted with. If you want to take that stand, you might want to post specific signs out front.
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