BAD COP/good cop

[gail]

There are no good cops. Their job is to break your resolve, and to cause you to become a blathering idiot. Being a traffic cop is not one of the higher respected jobs with either motorists are within the force itself. It is often a 'sh*t detail' for cops who go afoul with their supervisors.

Most tickets are bogus if you are talking about safety.

All tickets are for revenue.

Good cop/bad cop. They are all bad cops just doing their job. They just pretend to be a good cop to break down your natural reserve that you are in the clutches of a predator. Always keep your guard up. Be polite, but non-committal. Even more so if you are guilty. Remember your rights and use them to your advantage. Keep your mouth shut -- military rule rules: Name, rank and serial number. If it is a serious violation and you know you are guilty - don't fall on your sword and try to talk your way out of it. Keep your mouth shut and demand an attorney. If you are innocent, keep your mouth shut as well. Every one has their own variation of the infamous "warning," DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT! Warning tickets are rare, and if you are a male - even rarer.

All the cards are in the hand of the court system. In order to play the game, you need to familiarize yourself with their rules and beat them at their own game. More later on winning.

Ticket quota? No, of course not, cops are expected to write as many tickets as possible or they are out of a job. The cop mentality is I can give a ticket to anyone, at anytime, for any reason. They know that most motorists will not fight their ticket, because it is too time-comsuming. Time-comsuming for the cop too, that is why they like to ticket out-of-state motorists. Why? Because the city/county/state can jack up the cost of the ticket, and it is highly unlikely that they would fight ticket, even if they would like too. This is a win/win for the cop and a lose/lose for the motorists. Out of state tickets run as high as 75%.

[chiph]

One of my coworkers got a speeding ticket on his way to work the other day (70 in a 55).

Since he just moved here from California, we explained to him how things work in North Carolina -- he thought he could attend traffic school and get the ticket removed from his record. We explained that here there are license points and insurance points. He can live with 3 points on his license, but that 3 insurance points was going to cost him a lot in higher premiums for the next several years.

His options are to track down a magistrate on his day at court, and plead guilty to only 9 mph over the limit, which means the insurance company won't find out. Or to hire a lawyer, who will do the same thing for him, and save him the trip downtown & time away from work.

Chip H.

[Eric]

"There are no good cops..."

I won't go that far. I have been let off with warnings several times; and I have known some cops who were "ok" (by which I mean they tried to issue tickets only when justified by bad/dangerous driving, not simply because someone was guilty of a "technical foul," etc.).

But I believe this type of cop is a vanishing breed.

The profession as it exists today attracts what we might call the Dickhead Personality - who doesn't mind (and may even enjoy) spending his days hassling people over petty "violations." As I understand it, there is great deal of pressure brough to bear on cops to write as many tickets as possible; hence the "good cops" either don't advance (or simply leave the force) while the Dickheads advance and multiply.

Throw into the mix the increasing profusion of low-rent harrasment laws (seat-belt violations, etc.) and the Dickhead types proliferate while the old school decent ones just fade away...

[gail]

One of my coworkers got a speeding ticket on his way to work the other day (70 in a 55).

Since he just moved here from California, we explained to him how things work in North Carolina -- he thought he could attend traffic school and get the ticket removed from his record. We explained that here there are license points and insurance points. He can live with 3 points on his license, but that 3 insurance points was going to cost him a lot in higher premiums for the next several years.

His options are to track down a magistrate on his day at court, and plead guilty to only 9 mph over the limit, which means the insurance company won't find out. Or to hire a lawyer, who will do the same thing for him, and save him the trip downtown & time away from work.

Chip H.

I fought a ticket in North Carolina and won. Well, not really, but the judge said that I did. They got their pound of flesh first, but all charges were dismissed. No points, no bargaining, no fines, etc.

Is your friend's ticket still pending or is this a thing of the past? What county, and what was the method of speed detection? I would love to find someone who received a VASCAR ticket that would take it to another level. Much of the paper work has already been filed, with the intent of getting VASCAR deemed illegal. Dang! I can no longer get a ticket on a bet. >

[gail]

"There are no good cops..."

I won't go that far. I have been let off with warnings several times; and I have known some cops who were "ok" (by which I mean they tried to issue tickets only when justified by bad/dangerous driving, not simply because someone was guilty of a "technical foul," etc.).

But I believe this type of cop is a vanishing breed.

The profession as it exists today attracts what we might call the Dickhead Personality - who doesn't mind (and may even enjoy) spending his days hassling people over petty "violations." As I understand it, there is great deal of pressure brough to bear on cops to write as many tickets as possible; hence the "good cops" either don't advance (or simply leave the force) while the Dickheads advance and multiply.

Throw into the mix the increasing profusion of low-rent harrasment laws (seat-belt violations, etc.) and the Dickhead types proliferate while the old school decent ones just fade away...

True, oh so true. However the type of people who are drawn into law enforcement are a breed of their own. The psychological testing and academy training is designed to weed out the psycho, but rarely success 100%. Those cops are such goof-ups that they are sent out on the sh*t detail. Sure I've met some pleasant cops in the line of duty, but then, you must remember that I am a soft, polite, attractive blonde female. All plus, plus for me and my ilk. Being older is even better, because now I don't have to put up with the "flirt" bit. I can just be the sweet, attractive grandma now. (where ever is my angel smiley Icon ???)

Alex Carroll has written a hilarious book titled Speeding Excuses that Work; The Cleverest Copouts & Ticket Victories Ever! Great reading, and maybe some excuses that one might want to use.

All-in-all though, there is a method to this madness and we all know what it is -- revenue. Pure and simple. If safety was a real factor legislators would stop passing idiotic laws and let the Department of Transportation (DOT) do their job that they have been trained to do, and if the traffic engineers would develop a backbone and stand up to the legislators and city council members, instead of being scared of losing their job, we would have realistic traffic laws. Ah, the real world. Also, if the issue was really about safety DOT would get their act together and make the highways and byways safer to travel. There doesn't seem to be a five mile stretch of roadway in the USA that doesn't have a dangerous problem. Construction work that turns into a 20-yr retirement program for the construction workers, poor signage at the construction sites, as well as other places of need, e.g., street signs too small or hidden, pot holes, curves that are improperly banked. I could go on and on and on, and I'm sure that each of you reading this post could add your own experience. In fact, that is a good idea let's just start a list here.

[DonTom]

"There are no good cops. "

I assume you only mean traffic cops.

But cops do NOT set the speed limits or make any other traffic law. They are supposed to enforce laws, even if they do NOT agree with them. That's what the real problem is.

But just like people of any profession, you will find a few a**holes and some who do a better job of getting revenue than others.

What we think of as a bad cop is what the city or state thinks of as a good cop.

The entire world runs on BS and money is the main reason. But until somebody comes up with a better idea, we are stuck with this system.

-Don-

[Eric]

" Sure I've met some pleasant cops in the line of duty, but then, you must remember that I am a soft, polite, attractive blonde female. All plus, plus for me and my ilk. Being older is even better, because now I don't have to put up with the "flirt" bit. I can just be the sweet, attractive grandma now. (where ever is my angel smiley Icon ???)"

I've been pulled over in flashy brand-new high-performance cars (BMW M Roadster, for one) and given warnings a couple of times - so I can attest from experience they're not all Dicks. But I have experienced the other type as well.

The problem at root is that the system is dishonest and based on generating money, not traffic safety. If tickets were based on justifiable things that were objectively examples of unsafe drving, etc., then few of us would complain - and when we did do something and got caught, we'd feel ashamed. Instead, we get pulled over for BS stuff - and rightly resent having our pockets picked for wha we know is no good reason. This fosters disrespect for both good and bad laws, as well as turns cops into objects of derision and contempt - which is not a good thing.

[Eric]

"But cops do NOT set the speed limits or make any other traffic law. They are supposed to enforce laws, even if they do NOT agree with them. That's what the real problem is."

This is essentially the "Nuremburg defense".... I was only following orders! (And it doesn't excuse the offenders here, either.)

"But just like people of any profession, you will find a few a**holes and some who do a better job of getting revenue than others."

Yes; but the type of work involved does trend to attract a certain "type."

"The entire world runs on BS and money is the main reason. But until somebody comes up with a better idea, we are stuck with this system."

True!






[/quote]

[DonTom]

"This is essentially the "Nuremburg defense".... I was only following orders! (And it doesn't excuse the offenders here, either.)"

And if I were running things, that WOULD be a good defense!

How would you like to be in such a position? Get killed right now by not following the order, or follow the order and PERHAPS, but only if we lose the war, MAYBE get killed around 40 years from now.

Which would you do?

IMO, only go after the one who gave the order.

BTW, when I was in the army while in basic training, we were told how to deal with an illegal order :

"First carry out the order. Only after completed, take the steps to question it."

However, they stopped saying that after the My Lai incident got exposed.

-Don-

[Eric]

"And if I were running things, that WOULD be a good defense!

How would you like to be in such a position? Get killed right now by not following the order, or follow the order and PERHAPS, but only if we lose the war, MAYBE get killed around 40 years from now."

I understand - and can empathize.. but at the same time, I believe it's necessary to hold people accountable for immoral behavior - whether done under "color of law" or not.

"Which would you do?"

I don't know - but I wouuld hope I'd have the courage to say FU - or at least, to have seen where things are headed and gotten the hell out of that situation. Besides, there is an issue of culpability in CHOOSING to SIGN UP for certain work. We are not talking about random citizens being dragged off the street and made to don uniforms. The SS, for example (Eichmann's branch of service) was a volunteer service. Being a cop is not too different. No one is forced to be a cop!

[mrblanche]

This is essentially the "Nuremburg defense".... I was only following orders! (And it doesn't excuse the offenders here, either.)

But these guys like their paychecks, just as you do. Suppose you told the makers of the next 10 cars you reviewed that they were crap and you wouldn't have their car as a gift, even if it's true. How long would you keep your job? So, you bite the bullet, praise the good and soft-pedal the bad, so you don't have to build a chicken house and work 24 hours a day to put food on the table.

So, even the best officers take the abuse and give out tickets when they have to.

I haven't had a moving violation in 24 years, and in that time I've driven well over 2,000,000 miles. I've been stopped 3 or 4 times, but never got a ticket. I have to say that dealing with highway enforcement, especially, is very different from city enforcement.

[DonTom]

"No one is forced to be a cop! "

It's usually NOT their choice to be assigned to the traffic division. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.

And even is the SS was a volunteer service, I seriously doubt that they knew they would get such orders as they did.


-Don-

[Eric]

"But these guys like their paychecks, just as you do. Suppose you told the makers of the next 10 cars you reviewed that they were crap and you wouldn't have their car as a gift, even if it's true. How long would you keep your job? So, you bite the bullet, praise the good and soft-pedal the bad, so you don't have to build a chicken house and work 24 hours a day to put food on the table."

I'mnot buying that line of reasoning; here's why:

For one, I'm not harming anyone by writing - I don't pick anyone's pockets with a gun and a badge, either.

"So, even the best officers take the abuse and give out tickets when they have to."

If it's justified (by which I mean the driver did somethign genuinely unsafe or stupid) I have no problem with it.

[Eric]

"It's usually NOT their choice to be assigned to the traffic division. It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it."

They chose to be a cop - and could choose another lineof work. And I'mnot sure how it is elsewhere, but here in VA, ticket writing is part of every cop's daily job.

"And even is the SS was a volunteer service, I seriously doubt that they knew they would get such orders as they did."

Well, this is a long and involved thing... the Waffen SS was different from other branches of the SS, for one. It was primarily an elite corps, very much like the Marine Recon Units or SEALs today . The Jew killing was done mainly by "special action squads" - or Einsatzgruppen. And administered/overseen by Himmler's bureaucracy and guys like Eichman, who were not soldiers.

That said, anyone alive in Germany during the late '20s and early '30s had to have heard the open calls for the abuse of Jews, seen the growing menace - and all the other totalitarian stuff.

One had an opportunity to object. Or simply to LEAVE.

By staying - and participating - one assumes a certain measure of guilt, eh?







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[chiph]

One of my coworkers got a speeding ticket on his way to work the other day (70 in a 55).

Since he just moved here from California, we explained to him how things work in North Carolina -- he thought he could attend traffic school and get the ticket removed from his record. We explained that here there are license points and insurance points. He can live with 3 points on his license, but that 3 insurance points was going to cost him a lot in higher premiums for the next several years.

His options are to track down a magistrate on his day at court, and plead guilty to only 9 mph over the limit, which means the insurance company won't find out. Or to hire a lawyer, who will do the same thing for him, and save him the trip downtown & time away from work.

Chip H.

I fought a ticket in North Carolina and won. Well, not really, but the judge said that I did. They got their pound of flesh first, but all charges were dismissed. No points, no bargaining, no fines, etc.

Is your friend's ticket still pending or is this a thing of the past? What county, and what was the method of speed detection? I would love to find someone who received a VASCAR ticket that would take it to another level. Much of the paper work has already been filed, with the intent of getting VASCAR deemed illegal. Dang! I can no longer get a ticket on a bet. >

This is Wake county (might have been inside some city limits -- don't know), it hasn't gone to trial yet, and the officer used either radar or lidar.

Chip H.

[gail]

One of my coworkers got a speeding ticket on his way to work the other day (70 in a 55).

Since he just moved here from California, we explained to him how things work in North Carolina -- he thought he could attend traffic school and get the ticket removed from his record. We explained that here there are license points and insurance points. He can live with 3 points on his license, but that 3 insurance points was going to cost him a lot in higher premiums for the next several years.

His options are to track down a magistrate on his day at court, and plead guilty to only 9 mph over the limit, which means the insurance company won't find out. Or to hire a lawyer, who will do the same thing for him, and save him the trip downtown & time away from work.

Chip H.

I fought a ticket in North Carolina and won. Well, not really, but the judge said that I did. They got their pound of flesh first, but all charges were dismissed. No points, no bargaining, no fines, etc.

Is your friend's ticket still pending or is this a thing of the past? What county, and what was the method of speed detection? I would love to find someone who received a VASCAR ticket that would take it to another level. Much of the paper work has already been filed, with the intent of getting VASCAR deemed illegal. Dang! I can no longer get a ticket on a bet. >

This is Wake county (might have been inside some city limits -- don't know), it hasn't gone to trial yet, and the officer used either radar or lidar.

Chip H.

Are you planning to fight this ticket? If so, what preparation are you making to win it?

[chiph]

It's not me -- it's a guy I work with. He's trying to make up his mind -- he doesn't want the increased insurance premiums, but he doesn't want to take time off to fight it, either.

I'm trying to convince him to hire a lawyer -- it'd be cheaper in the long run.

Chip H.

[gail]

It's not me -- it's a guy I work with. He's trying to make up his mind -- he doesn't want the increased insurance premiums, but he doesn't want to take time off to fight it, either.

I'm trying to convince him to hire a lawyer -- it'd be cheaper in the long run.

Chip H.

NMA has a list of competent attorneys, who are experience in fighting traffic ticket. Check it out.