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Thread: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

  1. #21
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "If you can afford two home, and can afford a ~$90,000 motor home, surely you can afford to simply take the Jeep to a shop and say "please fix this", no???"

    Has nothing to do with what I can afford.

    It's my egotistical hangup.

    Besides, I save enough money from fixing the small stuff myself to be able to afford two homes and a 90K motorhome. ;D
    -Don-


  2. #22
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system



    Besides, I save enough money from fixing the small stuff myself to be able to afford two homes and a 90K motorhome. ;D
    -Don-[/color][/size]

    [/quote]

    Define "small stuff"!!

  3. #23
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Quote Originally Posted by ChevyMan
    Define "small stuff"!!
    That's about 99% of automotive repairs. You know, stuff such as changing fuel pumps in your older vehicle ;D. Add doing your own brake jobs and other small fixes, you will save thousands compared to having a dealer do them.

    BTW, today I discovered an easy way to disarm my alarm with it still appear to be working (will still flash the indicator LED as if it's set). It solved all my problems with the interior lights staying on while the key is out. I simply removed connector C-3 from the Body Control Module.

    So now it SEEMS to work normally and only I (and those here) know the alarm will not really work.

    Nevertheless, I still plan on finding the real cause and fixing the VTSS (Vehicle Theft Security System) for real the next time I work on it.

    BTW, I am not sure if it has a hood switch or not. My 1997 Factory Service Manual clearly says it does, but I cannot find it. But I did find this info on the web:

    http://home.sc.rr.com/janet/TSB/08-47-95.htm

    -Don-


  4. #24
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    I have a guess what's wrong, but I will have to check tomorrow when I get a chance.

    I was just taking a good look at the Factory Service Manual VTSS schematic.

    There is an "VTSS disarm sense" lead from the three cylinder key locks (front left and right door plus liftgate key lock) to the Body Control Module. This is used to make sure the alarm is disabled when the key is used, so the door switches will be ignored (IOW, the alarm should NOT sound off when a key is used to open the door). If the key is used, the interior lights will go on as soon as the door is unlocked. This will NOT show in my display, because all doors are closed. IOW, a bad cylinder lock switch will cause all of my symptoms.

    I will check the resistance on pin ten of the Body Control Module. If it reads low to ground, it means I am stuck in the alarm disable mode, which will cause all of my symptoms. IOW, perhaps one of the three key switches is stuck disabling the alarm, which will leave the interior lights on, because it "thinks" I am getting in the car.

    Also, removing connector C-3 will put it in permanent VTSS enable, but will have no alarms to sense, so this all makes sense that I can then SEEM to set the alarm (all indications will be normal, but the alarm won't really work).

    Easy thing to test for tomorrow.

    I don't think I ever had a hood switch, so I wasted some time looking for what does not exist. I think the 1997 Factory Service Manual is not completely updated from the previous models which really did have a hood switch.

    -Don-


  5. #25
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "That's about 99% of automotive repairs. You know, stuff such as changing fuel pumps in your older vehicle ;D. Add doing your own brake jobs and other small fixes, you will save thousands compared to having a dealer do them."

    Amen to that.

    Example:

    I recently changed out the water pump, thermostat, all drive belts/hoses and flushed/filled the radiator in my '98 Nissan - all for less than $100, total.

    How much do you suppose a dealer would have charged for that?

  6. #26
    mrblanche
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Well, since the dealership needs to get about $80 per hour while it's actually under repair, quite a bit more...but with quite a bit less trouble for you.

    And $80/hour is not an unreasonable number. If I move something for you with my truck (your trailer), I have to get over $100/hour. And I don't have anywhere near the costs of a dealership.

  7. #27
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblanche
    Well, since the dealership needs to get about $80 per hour while it's actually under repair, quite a bit more...but with quite a bit less trouble for you.

    And $80/hour is not an unreasonable number. If I move something for you with my truck (your trailer), I have to get over $100/hour. And I don't have anywhere near the costs of a dealership.
    All true; and I don't have any moral or other problem with what dealers, etc. charge. I just like to save money - and actually enjoy doing these things myself!

  8. #28
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "All true; and I don't have any moral or other problem with what dealers, etc. charge. I just like to save money - and actually enjoy doing these things myself!"

    I think it's nice to know how your own vehicle works. The more you work on it, the better you know it. And it often helps for other makes too.

    And for electrical stuff, I figure I should be able to fix it as fast as a dealer, unless the dealer has already seen the same problem many times.

    -Don-

  9. #29
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Problem all fixed. The problem was that the cylinder lock switch for the tailgail lock fell off the bracket in the unlocked position, telling the Body Control Module that the tailgate is always unlocked as if via the key. This keeps the interior lights on as it "thinks" I am using the tailgate and need the interior lights.

    Knowing how this works, I decided to make a simple modification. I cut the wire to pin 10 of the BCM (which I can easily repair if I ever want to) so that even if a key is used, the alarm will still sound off. I always use the remotes to unlock (have two of them, each with one of the two keys). This way it will fool the thief who just happens to have the key or a way to break the key lock. And even if I use the key, as soon as the key is put in the ignition (OR remote is used to unlock) it will quiet the alarm.

    If anybody else wants to do this on a Jeep Cherokee, cut the violet / yellow wire (pin 10) on connector C3 to the left of the steering column.

    I also proved today, that despite the Factory Service Manual, that my 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee does NOT (and never did) have a hood switch. This isn't much of an issue since one has to get in the cab to open the hood or probably have to make make more noise than the alarm to break into the hood.

    -Don-

  10. #30
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Don,

    Glad you found the problem. I was pretty sure your car did not have a hood switch. I hate it when the shop manual gives your wrong info. Was your manual a Haynes or other 3rd party, I have seen error in these manuals in the past, the factory shop manuals are usually more correct.

    I am still looking for the code activation sequence. I'll post it when I find it.

  11. #31
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "Was your manual a Haynes or other 3rd party, "

    !997 Jeep Factory Service manual. $100.00 bucks worth, IIRC.

    I don't think the Haynes or other 3rd party manuals have alarm stuff in them.

    BTW, I have those too.

    I always have every manual possible for all my vehicles.

    It's obvious what happened in the factory service manual. They didn't bother to update the older schematics. This might explain why there wasn't a word about the hood switch location in the text, but all other alarm switches are mentioned.

    This is not the first time I have seen factory manuals incorrect when it came to electrical stuff.

    Anyway, now I know how the alarm works quite well. I never would if I let a dealer fix it. That's one reason why I like to fix my own stuff whenever possible.

    I didn't bother to try to replace or fix the small bracket on the tailgate lock switch. I simply disabled the alarm disable function by cutting the wire to the BCM so the key locks will not disable the alarm. IOW, the alarm will now sound off even if a key is used. But the remotes will still work normally. I like this way better, as even if the key lock is forced open, the alarm will still sound. IMO, that's the way an alarm should work.

    I also could have set it up to only ignore the tail gate (IOW, tailgate only would set off alarm, when opened) but I decided to let it alarm whenever the remote is NOT used to open any door or tailgate.

    My 1984 Venture was ripped off (and recovered) many years ago. A screwdriver was used to break the ignition lock. Even if the bike had an alarm, it would not have worked, as alarms are usually disabled by the key switch being turned on (even when forced on!). I added an alarm later, but I used a hidden wire to set it instead of the ignition switch.

    -Don- (Reno)







  12. #32
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    For my '94 Grand Cherokee I do not have the factory shop manual, I need to get it. I have the Haynes manual, and so far that has had everything that I need. But for my other cars I have now and have had in the past I have had the factory shop manual and other 3rd party manuals. On my old '88 Wrangler, I had 3 different shop manuals, and on some occassions every one of the three was better than the others. So I can definitely see where its worth it having as many shop manuals as possible.

  13. #33
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    By any chance does anybody here happen to know where the hood switch is located in a 1997 Jeep Grand Cherokee?

    I think mine MIGHT be stuck closed (as if hood is open), but I cannot find it. Or short to ground on the wire, which I also cannot find.

    I have the Factory Service Manual and it gives no clue where the hood switch is located. The only useful information is that it goes to a brown/tan wire to a connector (in a difficult area under the IP) with about ten other multi-wire connectors.

    The problem is that it keeps the interior lights on, so I have to disconnect the battery if I stop for more than a few minutes. This Jeep has not been used for a month or so and the battery was dead because of this. Seems the problem started while it just sat parked.

    Seems the interior lights will not time out as when I charged the battery and locked all the doors, the interior lights stayed on for more than a half hour, so then I disconnected the battery.

    -Don-
    How does onego about obtaining (buying) a service manual for a particular vehicle?

  14. #34
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "How does onego about obtaining (buying) a service manual for a particular vehicle?"

    There are many ways. It might depend on what you're looking for. You can try E-Bay first. If no luck, try:

    http://www.helminc.com/helm/publication.asp?Style=&mscsid=4EL379JNRQK29HXVR0F9A823G81AE5X9


    And:

    http://www.autorepairmanuals.biz/sit...FQibggodTFfl2Q

    -Don- (back in SSF)



  15. #35
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    "How does onego about obtaining (buying) a service manual for a particular vehicle?"

    There are many ways. It might depend on what you're looking for. You can try E-Bay first. If no luck, try:

    http://www.helminc.com/helm/publication.asp?Style=&mscsid=4EL379JNRQK29HXVR0F9A823G81AE5X9


    And:

    http://www.autorepairmanuals.biz/sit...FQibggodTFfl2Q

    -Don- (back in SSF)



    Don,

    Thanks for the links. I was actually looking for a repair manual ONLY for the 1999 RX300 Lexus wagon. What actual difference is there between a SHOP MANUAL and a REPAIR MANUAL ? The Haynes RepairManual covers 1999 to2005 Lexus.

  16. #36
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    ChevyMan,

    The Haynes manual is good but since it covers multiple years, it may not go into exact detail for certain items whereas the factory shop manual will have everything specific to that year of a certain car. Shop manuals or repair manual are really different two different names for the same thing. The reason the factory repair manuals tend to be called shop manuals is because these were the manuals the mechanics had sitting in their repair shop for reference. For instance years ago when I worked at an Oldsmobile dealership, the Oldsmobile factory repair manuals were all over the place (where the mechanics worked) and were referred to as shop manuals. They didn't use the Chilton manuals which at the time could be purchased at the local auto parts store. Where Haynes and Chilton are sometimes better than the factory shop manuals, is that they sometimes do a better job of explaining things in layman's terms (the factory manuals tend to be written like boring text books written by lawyers). So my advice to you is if you have a car you will be working on, buy all the main repair manuals available (including the factory repair manual), and before doing a job read in the different manuals how to do the job, you'll find you will do the job better and easier by having read the different perspectives in the different manuals. This is my experience.

  17. #37
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Haynes & Chilton will not cover safety systems, like the airbag wiring or motorized seatbelts. Plus, they often lack critical details: "Yes, I need to remove that instrument panel cover to get to the component I need to replace, but *where* are the clips located?"

    I have the Helm manual for the CR-V and it's truly a wealth of information. You could rebuild the transmission (Auto or Manual), if you were so inclined.

    Chip H.

    Former owner: 2012 Honda Civic LX, 2006 Honda Ridgeline RTL, 2000 Honda CR-V EX, 2003 MINI Cooper S, 1992 Honda Accord LX, 1999 Mercedes ML-320, 1995 VW Jetta GLX, 1991 Mercury Capri XR2, 1981 Mercury Zephyr, 1975 Chevrolet Impala

  18. #38
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    "What actual difference is there between a SHOP MANUAL and a REPAIR MANUAL ? The Haynes Repair Manual covers 1999 to2005 Lexus."

    There is no comparison. The factory manuals are only for a single model car and only for the one year of your vehicle.

    Here's an example. My Jeep Factory Service Manual is ONLY for year 1997 of the Jeep Grand Cherokee model and is more than two inches thick.

    My Haynes Jeep Grand Cherokee manual is only 7/8 inch thick and covers years 1993 to 2000.

    It's obvious which will have the most information for your vehicle and be less confusing (in most cases).

    But a factory manual may cost more than a hundred bucks and may require many manuals just for a single year and model. An extreme example is my 1996 Saturn, which is 13 manuals to cover it all (electrical, smog, body, powertrain, brakes, HVAC etc., all in separate manuals). The smallest of these manuals is about the same size as a Haynes Repair Manual, but many are quite larger.

    The newer the car, the more manuals usually will be needed to cover a single year. At times, I can understand why Eric is so technophobic. ;D

    -Don-

  19. #39
    DonTom
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Well, it's been six months since I started this thread. I assumed my rather new Jeep Battery (about a year old) would now be dead.

    This is because my theory has always been that if a lead acid battery, especially one that is NOT designed for deep discharges, such as engine starting batteries, is deeply discharged, it will work fine for six months and then be unusable.

    Well, the last time I used the Jeep was three weeks ago from my 250 mile trip back home from our Reno home. When I got home, I disconnected the battery because I don't expect to use the Jeep for a while, perhaps months.

    Today, I reconnected the battery and I could not crank the Jeep. My theory is confirmed. If you take a good car battery and discharge it until it has nothing left (such as happened because of my alarm problem keeping the interior lights on at all times without me noticing for a while) the battery will work normally for six months and then be totally unusable.

    The alarm problem was fixed months ago as explained in this thread.

    -Don- (posted from my sinecure in San Francisco)

  20. #40
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee alarm system

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    Well, it's been six months since I started this thread. I assumed my rather new Jeep Battery (about a year old) would now be dead.

    This is because my theory has always been that if a lead acid battery, especially one that is NOT designed for deep discharges, such as engine starting batteries, is deeply discharged, it will work fine for six months and then be unusable.

    Well, the last time I used the Jeep was three weeks ago from my 250 mile trip back home from our Reno home. When I got home, I disconnected the battery because I don't expect to use the Jeep for a while, perhaps months.

    Today, I reconnected the battery and I could not crank the Jeep. My theory is confirmed. If you take a good car battery and discharge it until it has nothing left (such as happened because of my alarm problem keeping the interior lights on at all times without me noticing for a while) the battery will work normally for six months and then be totally unusable.

    The alarm problem was fixed months ago as explained in this thread.

    -Don- (posted from my sinecure in San Francisco)
    Hey Don, where ya been? ;D

    This is an interesting theory... any explanation for why the battery's life is so dramatically shortened?

    As an aside: Why do you think small motorcycle batteries are more expensive than car batteries? Economies of scale?

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