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Thread: What broke?

  1. #21
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    A replacement engine from Japan would be cheap. Probably $500 or less for a whole engine with 30,000-60,000 miles on it. Just do a web search for used JDM engines.

  2. #22
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    I just found out that Lee took some time off, perhaps to deal with his broken down car. I wonder if he will junk it or buy a new engine and install it with a few of his buddies. He has done such before in other vehicles.

    He won't be reading my E-mail (with the link to here) until he gets back to work and I don't know when that will be.

    -Don- (SSF)

    If you're able to pull/replace an engine yourself - and if you can find a same-type complete used engine at a salvage yard, etc. - you can get back on the road in a weekend and for not much money out of pocket.

    If you have to pay someone to do the swap, on the other hand, the cost to do so may not be worth it - even assuming a used engine.

    It's important to "do the math" before you do anything - and be aware of how much the whole thing's gonna cost relative to the worth/value of the car itself (as well as the cost of replacing it with something else).

    Hope it turns out ok for him....

  3. #23
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric


    If you have to pay someone to do the swap, on the other hand, the cost to do so may not be worth it - even assuming a used engine.
    Yeah, labor for even a painless swap would exceed the value of a '95 Probe. I'd junk it now without a second thought.

  4. #24
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric


    If you have to pay someone to do the swap, on the other hand, the cost to do so may not be worth it - even assuming a used engine.
    Yeah, labor for even a painless swap would exceed the value of a '95 Probe. I'd junk it now without a second thought.
    That's my take also. The car can't be worth more than about $3k - running. Not running, it's worth maybe $500 for parts.

    I doubt any shop would do the swap for less than $1,000 - and that's not counting the cost of the replacement engine...

  5. #25
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    Re: What broke?

    Don,

    As a general rule, most cars produced before 1985 have flat tappet camshafts. The worst thing about the whole situation, is that nobody realized the EPA was phasing out ZDDP. The oil companies hid this fact and the ingredients are not listed on the side of a quart of oil. Only in the last few years, after a lot of tappet cam motors have bit the dust, due to premature cam or other internal failures, did the warning flags started popping up. I have known a few guys who lost their numbers matching motors due to the ZDDP being removed - some had rebuilt motors with not many miles.

    Never-the-less I think this removal of ZDDP and its effects, may be very good grounds for a class action lawsuit against the EPA.

    Who knows the removal of ZDDP may have been a slippery way for the EPA to get more older cars off the road. You can't trust them.

  6. #26
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    Pete,

    "some had rebuilt motors with not many miles."

    Such as my 400 CID in my RV? I think it had less than ten thousand miles on it and most of those miles were from it's last trip.

    Does the lack of ZDDP do any harm to anything other than the flat tappet camshafts?

    -Don- (SSF)

  7. #27
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    Re: What broke?

    Don,

    Did you have any problems with your 400 CID V8?

    The removal of ZDDP from oil has also led to other problems on older style motors such as premature lifter failure. ZDDP coated most old engine parts during engine runtime especially tappet cams, with it's removal there's not much protection against wear and tear. Apparently premature failure is more prevalent in rebuilt motors since the ZDDP is not there to protect during the stressful cam break-in period. This is why camshaft companies like crane recommend a ZDDP additive be used especially during engine break-in.

  8. #28
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    "Did you have any problems with your 400 CID V8?"

    Pete,

    In this section, please read the "Engine Meltdown Disaster" thread. There you will get the entire story. But the short answer is that it was NOT a cam related problem. Most likely was either a broken rod or a broken crankshaft.

    Was ZDDP added to oil only because of older engines?

    Does ZDDP have any advantage at all to newer engines?

    -Don- (at my sinecure in San Francisco)


  9. #29
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    "Was ZDDP added to oil only because of older engines?

    Does ZDDP have any advantage at all to newer engines?"

    ZDDP (like lead in gas) was once a "standard component" of engines oils; it has only recently (past 5 years or so) been removed (or concentrations reduced) to help automakers meet increasingly tough new car emissions requirements.

    Modern engines use roller-type cams and so the lackof ZDDP isn't an issue. I'd have to check to be certain, but I don't think any new cars (or any cars built in the last several years) use/used flat tappet cams. I think they've been out of comon usage in new vehicles for at least a decade - if not two.

  10. #30
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    "Modern engines use roller-type cams and so the lackof ZDDP isn't an issue. "

    [size=10pt]What does the ZDDP do, where it only has an effect on the flat cams and nothing else?

    Or perhaps I am asking the wrong question. Why do the flat cam whatever (I wish I could see a pix somewhere of both so I cold compare) need a special lubricate that nothing else seems to require?

    -Don-
    [/size]

  11. #31
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    "What does the ZDDP do, where it only has an effect on the flat cams and nothing else?"

    It's a frictionmodifier that acts to buffer the contact patch where the cam's lobe meets the lifter face. With roller-type cams, there is much less friction due to the nature of the roller design, etc.

  12. #32
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    Re: What broke?

    Adding to the great info Eric provided the reason the EPA has pushed for the phase-out of ZDDP is that the EPA believed ZDDP caused premature catalytic converter failure. I have not seen any scientific studies to prove their position/belief.

    On older vehicles with flat tappet cam engines you can either put in a ZDDP additive or you can upgrade to a new roller cam to prevent against failure. Personally I would got with a ZDDP additive since I am have a hunch ZDDP was also protecting other internal areas of older engines.

  13. #33
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    "Personally I would got with a ZDDP additive since I am have a hunch ZDDP was also protecting other internal areas of older engines. "

    Friction is friction and I am wondering if it has any negative effect even on newer engines.

    I would think newer engines would have less blow-by and have a lot less oil in the exhaust and wouldn't have to worry much about what's in the oil. Not much of it should ever get to the CC. I've noticed in the last few years that it seems engine oil levels don't go down much. Or have we just been lucky?

    -Don-

  14. #34
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    "Personally I would got with a ZDDP additive since I am have a hunch ZDDP was also protecting other internal areas of older engines. "

    Friction is friction and I am wondering if it has any negative effect even on newer engines.

    I would think newer engines would have less blow-by and have a lot less oil in the exhaust and wouldn't have to worry much about what's in the oil. Not much of it should ever get to the CC. I've noticed in the last few years that it seems engine oil levels don't go down much. Or have we just been lucky?

    -Don-
    Well, they're concerned (allegedly, this is the stated reason) about the durabilty of catalysts up to 120,000 miles - which is a long time. Every engine, no matter how "tight" will use at least a little oil; this consumption, of course, will increase with age. An engine with 75,000 miles will probably use more than a brand-new engine - yet the law now requires the automakers to warrant catalytic converters (Read: pay for them if they fail) for 120,000 miles.... so even what seems like an infinitesimal amount of ZDDP "contamination" over time becomes a real issue...

  15. #35
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    So what happened with the guy who blew up the Probe? It's been a few days, has he just been doing without transport?

  16. #36
    MikeHalloran
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    Re: What broke?

    The tappet face is actually contacting (with considerable force) and sliding (on the cam surface) while the engine is operating. Because the cam surface is mostly convex and the tappet face is flat, the contact area is theoretically zero; a mathematical line. Both surfaces deflect infinitesimally, so there's a small but finite contact area. The interface needs an extreme pressure lubricant, because the pressure is extreme.

    The tappet barrels are also sliding, but the load is much lower. The rocker pivots are sliding, but the pressure is lower because of the much larger contact area.

    The rollers, bushings and pins in the various roller chains are sliding a little too, but at a lower velocity, and they get some rest.

    (The crank and rod bearings are not sliding on the crank surface; they are separated by a hydrodynamically generated film of oil as soon as the engine starts.)


  17. #37
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    "Every engine, no matter how "tight" will use at least a little oil; this consumption, of course, will increase with age."

    Sure, but it seems these days, a later model car will eat a lot less oil at 150,000 miles than any engine from the 1970's that had even 100,000 miles.

    But back then, not many engines would even make it to 150,000 miles. Perhaps that's why all the odometers reset to zero at 100K, unlike today. Now, most odometers go to a million miles.

    I am not counting the many cars of the 1980's that would leak oil from the intake manifold and "dummy" distributor hole plug gasket for those which had no distributor. Engines such as the 2.8L in my 1988 Biretta that leaked oil at 50K.

    I did the work myself at 70K when I got tired of adding oil almost every day. But it never used a drop of oil after that. But at another 68K, the cam chain broke. Or does GM still use nylon gears and it fell off? That happened at 138,000 miles. Then I junked it, as I assumed it was an interference engine as most engines were by then.

    I was at a steady speed on the freeway when it broke. Engine dies at 70 MPH. I tried to restart, already expecting it was a timing chain. And sure enough, the starter ran VERY fast just as if there's no compression or load at all.

    -Don-

  18. #38
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    My mom's '84 S-10 with the 2.8 V6 leaked oil too, lots of it.

  19. #39
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: What broke?

    "Sure, but it seems these days, a later model car will eat a lot less oil at 150,000 miles than any engine from the 1970's that had even 100,000 miles."

    Probably true; but again, it does not take much contamination to reduce the effectiveness of a catalyst. So even fractional amounts of consumed oil (which contains the additive) will, over time, begin to reduce the converter's effectiveness.

    Or that's the claim, anyhow.

    What it all comes down to is this:

    If you own a new/relatively new (less than 15 years old) vehicle, you've probably got no worries.

    But if you own a car built prior to about 1985 ( especially if it's American and has a pushrod/OHV V-8) using the additive with every oil change is probably smart policy.

    Better safe than sorry... !


  20. #40
    DonTom
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    Re: What broke?

    "My mom's '84 S-10 with the 2.8 V6 leaked oil too, lots of it."

    Did you see oil on top of the intake manifold?

    It took me about ten hours to fix it, with the help of the factory service manual. With experience, I bet it can be done in five hours. If no power steering (in the way and must be completely removed) it could be done in a few hours.

    Two gaskets to replace. Intake manifold and for the plug for the distributor. That is for the distributor that does NOT exist in the 2.8 V6. And then it won't leak a drop.

    And the replacement gaskets must have been better quality than the originals. Or else I do better work than the factory ;D. The originals leaked at 50K. I drove it about 70K miles after the repair without it leaking a drop.

    -Don-

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