Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

  1. #1
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    What could be new in the 'Two Wheeled' world, diesel?, electric?, rubber bands?, check it out below. What do you think is the way to go if we accept that straight 'gasoline' is on the way out?


    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-innovation/

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC, USA
    Posts
    3,628

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Did anyone ever put a Wankel (rotary) motor in a motorcycle frame?

    I'm thinking that it might be a good fit (after some engineering, of course). They rev to absurdly high rpms, don't vibrate much at all, and come in a fairly small physical package.

    Only downside is their relative lack of torque, which might not be a bad thing for a two-wheeler (it's occasionally nice to keep the front wheel on the asphalt)

    Chip H.

    Former owner: 2012 Honda Civic LX, 2006 Honda Ridgeline RTL, 2000 Honda CR-V EX, 2003 MINI Cooper S, 1992 Honda Accord LX, 1999 Mercedes ML-320, 1995 VW Jetta GLX, 1991 Mercury Capri XR2, 1981 Mercury Zephyr, 1975 Chevrolet Impala

  3. #3
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    Did anyone ever put a Wankel (rotary) motor in a motorcycle frame?

    I'm thinking that it might be a good fit (after some engineering, of course). They rev to absurdly high rpms, don't vibrate much at all, and come in a fairly small physical package.

    Only downside is their relative lack of torque, which might not be a bad thing for a two-wheeler (it's occasionally nice to keep the front wheel on the asphalt)

    Chip H.
    To the best of my knowledge there were only two rotary engined bikes produced by major motorcycle manufacturers. The Suzuki RE-5 and the Norton Rotary. The Suzuki was not a success story and the Norton although used by some of our Police soon passed into limbo. The Norton was, however, turned into quite a good racing machine first in its RCW588 guise ridden by such riders as Ron Haslam, Steve Spray and Robert Dunlop. Further developed into the NSR588, under the JPS banner it was successfully raced by Steve Hislop. At the Lincoln BIG Bike Fest 2007 I saw a privately owned Norton Rotary in full JPS trim which looked and sounded superb. There is another privately built 'Special' which, I believe, uses a Mazda two rotor engine in conjunction with a BMW back end and a Gixer front end.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  4. #4
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The Land of The Edentulites
    Posts
    22,731

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    What could be new in the 'Two Wheeled' world, diesel?, electric?, rubber bands?, check it out below. What do you think is the way to go if we accept that straight 'gasoline' is on the way out?


    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-innovation/

    Ken.
    The military is using diesel dual-sports; they apparently have great durability (and obviously, good torque) but are also hugely costly - around $12k, as I've read, for something like a DRZ400 in diesel.... thegas version of which costs, what, $5k?

    Given the tremendous mileage of gas bikes relative to cars, however, I bet we'll see more and more people getting into riding. In fact, this is already happening. A single cylinder bike inthe 250 cc range can achieved 60-plus MPG yet be perfectly serviceable on almost any road, even a highway (for short runs, anyhow). That is better mileage than just about any hybrid car - and at a fraction of the price to buy, too.




  5. #5
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric

    The military is using diesel dual-sports; they apparently have great durability (and obviously, good torque) but are also hugely costly - around $12k, as I've read, for something like a DRZ400 in diesel.... thegas version of which costs, what, $5k?
    As far as military procurement goes, Eric, paying over the odds for anything is nothing unusual. I used to work in defence electronics and the prices charged could border on the ridiculous. I believe in one case the MoD/DoD were paying £149 for a £1 spanner. The extra £148 was the cost of 'Procurement', 'On receipt inspection', 'Testing', 'Packaging' and 'Delivery' plus the mark-up allocated to a 'Cost Plus' contract. Believe you me, a licence to print money doesn't come anywhere near the truth. My particular discipline was Quality and we used to joke that all the good engineers were promoted out of the way so they wouldn't interfere with the profit making capability of useless ones who took twice as long to get nowhere.

    Ken.

    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,071

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    The military is using diesel dual-sports; they apparently have great durability (and obviously, good torque) but are also hugely costly - around $12k, as I've read, for something like a DRZ400 in diesel.... thegas version of which costs, what, $5k?
    By using diesel bikes they can use the same fuel right across the board - diesel is also much safer, particularly when people are playing with explosives!

  7. #7
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken

    To the best of my knowledge there were only two rotary engined bikes produced by major motorcycle manufacturers. The Suzuki RE-5 and the Norton Rotary. The Suzuki was not a success story and the Norton although used by some of our Police soon passed into limbo. The Norton was, however, turned into quite a good racing machine first in its RCW588 guise ridden by such riders as Ron Haslam, Steve Spray and Robert Dunlop. Further developed into the NSR588, under the JPS banner it was successfully raced by Steve Hislop. At the Lincoln BIG Bike Fest 2007 I saw a privately owned Norton Rotary in full JPS trim which looked and sounded superb. There is another privately built 'Special' which, I believe, uses a Mazda two rotor engine in conjunction with a BMW back end and a Gixer front end.
    Further to my last post on rotarys, I have found another that I didn't know existed from way back in the 70s;



    W2000 1970-75, 294cc (882cc) Wankel 4-stroke, 6 speed, 27bhp, 90mph, 27mpg.
    The Hercules/Sachs W2000 was sold as the DKW for the UK market from 1974. Sachs were one of the first licensees of the Wankel engine developed by NSU & used the 294cc air-cooled version of the rotary engine for the W2000. First exhibited in 1970 the W2000 entered full production in 1974. Only 1784 units were sold. A well handling bike with no vibration. 12 volt electrics and good VDO clocks. Engine noise evident at low revs and gearbox 5th & 6th too high ratio providing over-drive in top. The first 1145 engines used a petroil fuel mixture, but a separate oil injection system made by Mikuni of Japan fitted to the later 639 engine units. Cost £919 when launched at the Hilton Hotel in September 1974. High fuel consumption of 27mpg is a downside of the engine which also burns two-stroke oil making it an air polluter. Hercules/Sachs W2000
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Blacksburg, VA
    Posts
    98

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Y'all,

    Eric the Decider wrote:
    A single cylinder bike inthe 250 cc range can achieved 60-plus MPG yet be perfectly serviceable on almost any road, even a highway (for short runs, anyhow). That is better mileage than just about any hybrid car - and at a fraction of the price to buy, too.


    My 2000 Yamaha XT-350 Dual Sport gets 65-70mpg. If it were optimized for mileage (fairing, street tires, gearing) it would likely do much better. At what gasoline price will one of the major manufacturers produce a 100mpg bike?

    (And of course, if they did, would you buy one?)

    Michael

  9. #9
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The Land of The Edentulites
    Posts
    22,731

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    What could be new in the 'Two Wheeled' world, diesel?, electric?, rubber bands?, check it out below. What do you think is the way to go if we accept that straight 'gasoline' is on the way out?


    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...le-innovation/

    Ken.
    Well, given that bikes (even high-perf. sport bikes) are already more fuel efficient than almost any car, including hyper-compacts and micro-diesels such as the Smart and Lupo they ought to be part of the solution in their current form. Especially multi-purpose dual-sport bikes, which almost any adult can learn to ride well enough to ride virtually every day. These are capable of 60-plus mpg. If 40 percent of current SUV owners parked their 12-15 mpg behemoths even half of the time and rode a dual sport instead, we'd conserve a helluva lot of fuel!

    But I'm also interested in cellulosic ethanol (which does not require the use of foodstocks/land for food - as such - to manufacture) and see no reason why bikes could not be made that run on 100 percent alcohol fuel...


  10. #10
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric

    Well, given that bikes (even high-perf. sport bikes) are already more fuel efficient than almost any car, including hyper-compacts and micro-diesels such as the Smart and Lupo they ought to be part of the solution in their current form. Especially multi-purpose dual-sport bikes, which almost any adult can learn to ride well enough to ride virtually every day. These are capable of 60-plus mpg. If 40 percent of current SUV owners parked their 12-15 mpg behemoths even half of the time and rode a dual sport instead, we'd conserve a helluva lot of fuel!

    But I'm also interested in cellulosic ethanol (which does not require the use of foodstocks/land for food - as such - to manufacture) and see no reason why bikes could not be made that run on 100 percent alcohol fuel...
    Cellulosic Ethanol could be a way to go as roughly a third of all plant material is cellulose. I haven't got any details of the carbon footprint of producing ethanol though. No reason why bikes can't run on ethanol/methanol. My old Dad's AJS scramblers ran on methanol - needed jets like the Dartford Tunnel though, as did George Brown's methanol burning Vincent sprint bike, Nero. One small point dragged up from the remains of my memory, the fumes from methanol were quite toxic, I wonder if ethanol has the same problem, could give Elf n' Safety a fit of the hebejeebies. I must have a browse round.

    Found some info so I'll modify this post.

    Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) and Methanol (methyl alcohol aka wood alcohol) can be used to fuel internal combustion motor vehicles, either as sole fuels or, more usually, when mixed with petrol (gasoline). As a warning, in case you think these alcohols are a cheap way of fuelling your cocktail cabinet, note that this ethanol is of a dangerously high proof and contains additives which make it poisonous (it is referred to as denatured alcohol). Methanol is well known to be a dangerous poison in its own right.


    Ken.

    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  11. #11
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,133

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    ]

    Cellulosic Ethanol could be a way to go as roughly a third of all plant material is cellulose. I haven't got any details of the carbon footprint of producing ethanol though. No reason why bikes can't run on ethanol/methanol. My old Dad's AJS scramblers ran on methanol - needed jets like the Dartford Tunnel though, as did George Brown's methanol burning Vincent sprint bike, Nero. One small point dragged up from the remains of my memory, the fumes from methanol were quite toxic, I wonder if ethanol has the same problem, could give Elf n' Safety a fit of the hebejeebies. I must have a browse round.

    Found some info so I'll modify this post.

    Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) and Methanol (methyl alcohol aka wood alcohol) can be used to fuel internal combustion motor vehicles, either as sole fuels or, more usually, when mixed with petrol (gasoline). As a warning, in case you think these alcohols are a cheap way of fuelling your cocktail cabinet, note that this ethanol is of a dangerously high proof and contains additives which make it poisonous (it is referred to as denatured alcohol). Methanol is well known to be a dangerous poison in its own right.


    Ken.


    Methanol is an oil based fuel. Ethanol is white lightning. You can make your own ethanol but you have to render it undrinkable before it leaves your property. It seems to me that if you make 85 gallons of ethanol and add 15 gallons of gasoline, you now have 100 gallons of home made E-85. I see a lot of companies selling the equipment to make home made diesel fuel (biodiesel) but I wonder how much of it you have to make to achieve the break even point in that you save more on fuel than you spent on the equipment. Then again, part of the price on fuel is the road taxes paid that build and maintain the roads. Granted, in my part of the state, we don't see much of that but the Governor and Uncle Sam will start raising taxes elsewhere if everybody makes their own fuel. After all, the reason whiskey agents blow up stills isn't because the liquor is being made. It's because it's tax evasion. There are one or two legal moonshine distilleries in the U.S. . The only major difference between them and "Bubba" up in the hills running his own still is they have a license and pay taxes. Many years ago, I bought some moonshine just to see what it was like. One swig of uncut 'shine and my gut was burning and my eyes were watering. I gave it to an old pharte sitting there who tipped it up and chugged a large slug. That was one of my many lessons in not being as tough as I thought I was. :
    Honk if you love Jesus.

    Text if you want to meet him.

  12. #12
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The Land of The Edentulites
    Posts
    22,731

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    "Many years ago, I bought some moonshine just to see what it was like. One swig of uncut 'shine and my gut was burning and my eyes were watering. I gave it to an old pharte sitting there who tipped it up and chugged a large slug. That was one of my many lessons in not being as tough as I thought I was. :"

    I found that out myself - just the same way.

    I live in rural SW Va near the NC line - up in the Blue Ridge Mountains. The locals groove on homebrew and I have tried some. It is just as you describe. An acquired taste, I guess!

  13. #13
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lincolnshire, United Kingdom.
    Posts
    3,415

    Re: How about some real motorcycle innovation?

    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    ............... Many years ago, I bought some moonshine just to see what it was like. One swig of uncut 'shine and my gut was burning and my eyes were watering. I gave it to an old pharte sitting there who tipped it up and chugged a large slug. That was one of my many lessons in not being as tough as I thought I was. :
    My wonderful old paternal grandmother used to make a powerful elderberry wine to offer visitors. She also used to brew her own version of 'White Lightning', a potato whisky that could floor any non whiskey drinker who dared to drink more than a single shot. A decorator who was painting her fascias and soffits was offered a glass said she could fill the glass as he was a 'whisky drinker'. The paint marks down the wall and on the patio where he subsequently dropped first his brush, then the paintpot followed shortly by himself lasted for many years. As a youngster I was allowed some watered down elderberry wine but never never the whisky. Sadly she died before I was considered old enough to sample her special brew.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

Similar Threads

  1. Motorcycle Types - It's Getting Real Complex
    By Marc in forum On Two Wheels
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 01-19-2012, 11:38 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-26-2010, 07:05 AM
  3. Real men ride real bikes!
    By Ken in forum On Two Wheels
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-04-2009, 01:45 PM
  4. Another Apple Innovation
    By Dave Brand in forum Motor Mouth
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-11-2009, 10:17 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-13-2007, 06:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •