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Thread: A few question on the subject of religion....

  1. #1
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    A few question on the subject of religion....

    I recently had a discussion (well, an argument!) with one of my friends who is religious. A few questions arose out of that discussion that I'm posting here, to see whether others can provide satisfactory answers - or maybe agree with me. No intent to offend; just trying to understand a few things, such as:

    * Christianity claims it is a monotheistic religion; there is just one God.

    And yet, at the same time, Christians are supposed to accept the idea that there is a "son" of God - that is, Jesus.

    To me, this is unintelligible.

    Either there is one God - or multiple Gods. In which case, Christianity isn't really monotheistic. And the idea of multiple gods - or gods who have families - strikes me as peculiar.

    I have heard the argument that Jesus is a manifestation or "aspect" of God; but this seems an implausible explanation since the Bible is full of such things as Jesus addressing God - two beings conversing with one another - not Jesus/God talking to himself (which would be even more bizarre). There are clearly two distinct individuals - God and his son. (At least, in the New Testament.)

    To me,talking about a monotheistic God on the one hand - and then, at the same time, claiming this God sent his "son" to save humanity - is like saying "water is dry" - or maybe "he is round but also square". It makes no sense.

    Another one:

    * A core tenet of Christianity is that Jesus died to take upon himself the sins of humanity, that humanity might be "saved." This business is hard for me to swallow - on two levels.

    First, if Jesus is God (or his son) then by definition he is an immortal being who exists and has always existed and always will exist. How can such a being "die"? Or for that matter, even be harmed? And by mortal men?

    Isn't this a strangely temporal, finite - and human - way of talking about this Jesus/God fellow(s)?

    And if he cannot die, then what are we to make of his supposed "resurrection"?

    Also troubling - and perhaps on a deeper level - is the idea of punishing an innocent (by death, no less) for the "sins" of others. To me, this flies in the face of any concept of morality; specific individuals should be specifically held responsible for their specific actions.

    Would it be looked upon as a noble thing to send your son/daughter to the electric chair so that a murderer might go free?

    So - to recap:

    We have a supposedly monotheistic religion with a father-son tag team diety (dieties?) that goes through the motions of "dying" (since, being an immortal diety, this being/beings canot be be killed or die) in order to transfer the sins of others onto its blameless self - thereby making everything right.

    I have yet to come across an explanation for the above that makes sense; or rather, which isn't just parsing and double-talk that tries to evade the plain meaning of words - and simple logic. This is why I cannot "buy" Christianity.

    The Bible - and Christianity - do contain some worthwhile things, including common sense morality about our conduct and relations with others, etc. But it also contains a lot of obvious nonsense - as well as material that's unsupported or unsupportable. This is equally true of secular works; for example, "Beowulf" or "The Canterbury Tales."

    I read those with a grain of salt, too!

    Thoughts?


  2. #2
    DonTom
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Turn up the heat. Explain how Jesus is a demigod. JC's father was God, but his mother was human. That makes JC a demigod.

    -Don-


  3. #3
    Administrator Ken's Avatar
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    Turn up the heat. Explain how Jesus is a demigod. JC's father was God, but his mother was human. That makes JC a demigod.

    -Don-

    So, let's recap. God is a non-physical being so presumably God is an 'It' rather than a 'He/She'. Being non-physical one should assume 'It' cannot 'mate'. Mary was a virgin who, therefore, had never mated. So - not having had sex with a non-physical, possibly sexless, being whose existence cannot be proven or disproven (how very convenient for the clergy) she, still a virgin, becomes pregnant - hubby must have been overjoyed. Wait a minute, if she was married how likely is it that she was a virgin, no that's OK the old man could have been impotent ..................... Do I need to go on?

    My guess is that J & M were the original 'Con-Artists' who, with sublime trickery, propounded a myth that has persisted, with hundreds of variations, for a couple of millenia or more.

    Ken.
    Die dulci fruimini!
    Ken.
    Wolds Bikers, Lincolnshire, England.

  4. #4
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Father, Son, Holy Ghost, that makes three. Guess that's why they call it a trinity.

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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    I'm not so sure that monotheism is a reality, Godding is a difficult activity during the best of times and even the Main Guy needs a day at the beach or, maybe a week at fish camp. Logic dictates that there are assistant gods out there, one might call them "para-gods" for lack of a better term. The ancients probably got it right the first time.

  6. #6
    D_E_Davis
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    I'm not so sure that monotheism is a reality, Godding is a difficult activity during the best of times and even the Main Guy needs a day at the beach or, maybe a week at fish camp. Logic dictates that there are assistant gods out there, one might call them "para-gods" for lack of a better term. The ancients probably got it right the first time.
    Careful! - that's close to heresy. You may be compelled to spend the afterlife in that section of Hades reserved for Nader supporters.


  7. #7
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by D_E_Davis

    Careful! - that's close to heresy. You may be compelled to spend the afterlife in that section of Hades reserved for Nader supporters.

    Frightening, idea that the 'bad place' might be compartmentalized. Imagine a Joan Claybrook compartment, a Bill and Hillary compartment and so on.

    I had originally hoped to avoid the 'good place' on the grounds that some of my super religious relatives might be there but now ...

    Just how can one regulate one's thoughts and behavior so that eternity is spent in the company of good friends and cold beer?


  8. #8
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    Turn up the heat. Explain how Jesus is a demigod. JC's father was God, but his mother was human. That makes JC a demigod.

    -Don-

    I think this is the Mormon view; viz - that Jesus is more or less a superman - and humans can aspire to the same status....

  9. #9
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Father, Son, Holy Ghost, that makes three. Guess that's why they call it a trinity.
    You are correct, sir!

    I left out the Holy Ghost stuff because that seemed to me a little less assailable on the "not monotheistic" front, since one could argue that the "spirit" is an omnipresence that derives from God. And I can't remember an instance of either God or Jesus talking with the Holy Ghost in the way that Jesus talks with God as his "father" - as if he were a distinct, separate being....

  10. #10
    D_E_Davis
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Frightening, idea that the 'bad place' might be compartmentalized. Imagine a Joan Claybrook compartment, a Bill and Hillary compartment and so on.
    That's just an assumption. No one that I know has been there but returned to yield first-hand info.

    I had originally hoped to avoid the 'good place' on the grounds that some of my super religious relatives might be there but now ...

    Just how can one regulate one's thoughts and behavior so that eternity is spent in the company of good friends and cold beer?
    Associate exclusively with athiests.



  11. #11
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by jdm
    Just how can one regulate one's thoughts and behavior so that eternity is spent in the company of good friends and cold beer?

    Renounce America and become an NZ citizen. There is a small down payment...

  12. #12
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by D_E_Davis

    Associate exclusively with atheists.
    Truly a boring lot, the successful ones are always distracted by the thought that they might actually put faith in something and the bad ones are devoid of thought.

    It seems to me that the doubters and seekers might be the best company.

  13. #13
    DonTom
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken
    So, let's recap. God is a non-physical being so presumably God is an 'It' rather than a 'He/She'. Being non-physical one should assume 'It' cannot 'mate'. Mary was a virgin who, therefore, had never mated. So - not having had sex with a non-physical, possibly sexless, being whose existence cannot be proven or disproven (how very convenient for the clergy) she, still a virgin, becomes pregnant - hubby must have been overjoyed. Wait a minute, if she was married how likely is it that she was a virgin, no that's OK the old man could have been impotent ..................... Do I need to go on?

    My guess is that J & M were the original 'Con-Artists' who, with sublime trickery, propounded a myth that has persisted, with hundreds of variations, for a couple of millenia or more.

    Ken.
    Seems no mating is required to be a DemiGod. My dictionary (1994 AHD3) says for DemiGod:

    dem·i·god n. 1. Mythology. a. A male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god. b. An inferior deity; a minor god. c. A deified man. 2. A person who is highly honored or revered.

    It seems to me that JC qualifies as a DemiGod
    -Don-


  14. #14
    D_E_Davis
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    It seems to me that JC qualifies as a DemiGod
    But Eric doesn't?


  15. #15
    DonTom
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    "But Eric doesn't?"

    Yes, he is the DemiGod of this forum.

    -Don-

  16. #16
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: A few question on the subject of religion....

    Quote Originally Posted by D_E_Davis
    Quote Originally Posted by DonTom
    It seems to me that JC qualifies as a DemiGod
    But Eric doesn't?

    Nah. I'm just The Decider here, is all...!

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