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Thread: Are they going to kill me?

  1. #1
    gail
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    Are they going to kill me?

    More and more people are beginning to realize the grave injustice that the State of Texas have perpetrated upon a community of people living at the YFZ Ranch. Unconscionably!

    It is interesting how many people will claim that they did this or that, but have no proof. I certainly wouldn't want them on my jury of peers.

    I have often thought that if I had lived in Nazi Germany would I have help a Jew to find freedom? Now I am not too sure if I would, as the pressure to ignore or blast the situation was so strong it would be easier just to go with the flow. After all the govt. must be right, or else they would do it. I find myself not mentioning the FLDS situation out of fear of being ostracized, even though I feel strongly that a wrong is being done. I certainly know that many of you reading this post will rail on me, and some already have. I am reminded of the poem written by Pastor Martin Niemoller

    FIRST THEY CAME FOR THE JEWS

    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a communist.
    The they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist.
    They they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    They came for Elian Gonzales, Ruby Ridge, Waco, our prisons are full of recreational drug users, road blocks are set up for searches, the US Supreme Court approved searches of buses, cameras watch us everywhere, 1984 was late, but arrived. Do you really think that capturing the FLDS children will end the gestopo tactics. I think they have just begun. The news media was basis, but at least we have been alerted.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rePO1r0NTPU&NR=1

  2. #2
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    I, too, very much fear and object to the way our government is interfering with private conduct and personal choice; for example, the use of so-called drugs by consetning adults. (I say "so-called" because alcohol is a drug as much as, say, marijuana - yet our laws regard the former as acceptable and lawful, the former as illegal - rendering the term, "drug" both arbitrary and meaningless.)

    But - that is the key thing.... consenting adults.

    In the case of these FLDS fruitcakes, minor children are involved. Warren Jeffs is a vile cretin - but so long as he only manipulates and controls adults who consent to be maniplated and controlled, I consider it their business. But when these donkeys start reproducing and bringing hapless kids into their madness, I am absolutely in favor of the state stepping in. Adults, in my opinion (and in terms of the law) do not have unlimited rights over minor kids simply because they are parents. And when parents are involved in an idiot religion that assigns young girls as chattel to men (sometimes, much older men), indoctrinates kids with imbecile notions, denies them access to the outside world, cripples their minds, etc. - then hooray for the state, sez me.


  3. #3
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    I, too, very much fear and object to the way our government is interfering with private conduct and personal choice; for example, the use of so-called drugs by consenting adults. (I say "so-called" because alcohol is a drug as much as, say, marijuana - yet our laws regard the former as acceptable and lawful, the former as illegal - rendering the term, "drug" both arbitrary and meaningless.)

    But - that is the key thing.... consenting adults.

    In the case of these FLDS fruitcakes, minor children are involved. Warren Jeffs is a vile cretin - but so long as he only manipulates and controls adults who consent to be maniplated and controlled, I consider it their business. But when these donkeys start reproducing and bringing hapless kids into their madness, I am absolutely in favor of the state stepping in. Adults, in my opinion (and in terms of the law) do not have unlimited rights over minor kids simply because they are parents. And when parents are involved in an idiot religion that assigns young girls as chattel to men (sometimes, much older men), indoctrinates kids with imbecile notions, denies them access to the outside world, cripples their minds, etc. - then hooray for the state, sez me.

    The only consenting adult in this story was CPS and their trained goons.

    First let me clarify that Warren Jeffs is out of the picture in more ways than one. Not only is he in jail, he has resigned his leadership/priesthood/prophetship, or whatever else he might be called in polite company. I know nothing about him, so I will reserve my comments until I am better informed. So let's not bring him up again - OK?

    Your last comment floors me -- on the one hand there is a community of well-behaved, polite, happy and clean children (FLDS children). There are no drugs, no fat children, no sickness to speak of and mothers who love their children more than themselves. They stay with their children to love, teach, lead and disciplline. On the other hand, there are thousands and probably more who live in squalor, hungry, dirty, parents strung out on crack, living in homes with meth labs, often in homes of grave abuse from broken homes and stepparents. Wouldn't it be nice if all children were wanted, clean, polite, well-behaved, fed, but not fat, loved, but not abused, taught, but don't have to fight the bullies, and piss-poor teachers???? The statistics for young teen age pregnancies is staggering, often by older men, yet the young mother is left alone to raise her children without help from her family or the father of the child. Now, you tell me that the FLDS young women are in greater harm them these thousands of other young women. Life isn't always fair, but the harm brought upon the FLDS children is unconscionable!

    Yes, their lifestyle and clothing is different than ours, and it would have been nice if they baked bread - but that doesn't make their lifestyle bad, just different.

  4. #4
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    "First let me clarify that Warren Jeffs is out of the picture in more ways than one. Not only is he in jail, he has resigned his leadership/priesthood/prophetship, or whatever else he might be called in polite company. I know nothing about him, so I will reserve my comments until I am better informed. So let's not bring him up again - OK?"


    That's like saying: "The guy who founded NAMBLA is in jail or retired - or whatever. His followers (those who practice pederasty) should be left alone." The fact is that this group follows Jeff's teaching and regards him as a "prophet."

    Jeffs is the FLDS. And the FLDS is a fucked-up organization because Jeffs and his teachings are severely fucked up!


    "Your last comment floors me -- on the one hand there is a community of well-behaved, polite, happy and clean children (FLDS children). There are no drugs, no fat children, no sickness to speak of and mothers who love their children more than themselves. They stay with their children to love, teach, lead and disciplline. On the other hand, there are thousands and probably more who live in squalor, hungry, dirty, parents strung out on crack, living in homes with meth labs, often in homes of grave abuse from broken homes and stepparents. Wouldn't it be nice if all children were wanted, clean, polite, well-behaved, fed, but not fat, loved, but not abused, taught, but don't have to fight the bullies, and piss-poor teachers???? The statistics for young teen age pregnancies is staggering, often by older men, yet the young mother is left alone to raise her children without help from her family or the father of the child. Now, you tell me that the FLDS young women are in greater harm them these thousands of other young women. Life isn't always fair, but the harm brought upon the FLDS children is unconscionable"

    The above is due to your own Mormon beliefs; you can't see that to people not addled by irrational beliefs, the FLDS and groups like it are more than merely "another way of life." They are authoritarian, mind-controlled cults - which is fine, so long as kids aren't brought into it. I and others regard it as repellent to cripple a kid's mind (and probably emotional development) by feeding them a bunch of Warren Jeffs/FLDS horseshit when they are too young to understand that it is bullshit and when they are under parental/group pressure to beeeeeeelieve in such bullshit.

    How is FLDS doctrine any more valid than the doctrine of Heaven's Gate or People's Temple or Aumism?

    The answer is, it ain't.

  5. #5
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    "First let me clarify that Warren Jeffs is out of the picture in more ways than one. Not only is he in jail, he has resigned his leadership/priesthood/prophetship, or whatever else he might be called in polite company. I know nothing about him, so I will reserve my comments until I am better informed. So let's not bring him up again - OK?"


    That's like saying: "The guy who founded NAMBLA is in jail or retired - or whatever. His followers (those who practice pederasty) should be left alone." The fact is that this group follows Jeff's teaching and regards him as a "prophet."

    Jeffs is the FLDS. And the FLDS is a fucked-up organization because Jeffs and his teachings are severely fucked up!


    "Your last comment floors me -- on the one hand there is a community of well-behaved, polite, happy and clean children (FLDS children). There are no drugs, no fat children, no sickness to speak of and mothers who love their children more than themselves. They stay with their children to love, teach, lead and disciplline. On the other hand, there are thousands and probably more who live in squalor, hungry, dirty, parents strung out on crack, living in homes with meth labs, often in homes of grave abuse from broken homes and stepparents. Wouldn't it be nice if all children were wanted, clean, polite, well-behaved, fed, but not fat, loved, but not abused, taught, but don't have to fight the bullies, and piss-poor teachers???? The statistics for young teen age pregnancies is staggering, often by older men, yet the young mother is left alone to raise her children without help from her family or the father of the child. Now, you tell me that the FLDS young women are in greater harm them these thousands of other young women. Life isn't always fair, but the harm brought upon the FLDS children is unconscionable"

    The above is due to your own Mormon beliefs; you can't see that to people not addled by irrational beliefs, the FLDS and groups like it are more than merely "another way of life." They are authoritarian, mind-controlled cults - which is fine, so long as kids aren't brought into it. I and others regard it as repellent to cripple a kid's mind (and probably emotional development) by feeding them a bunch of Warren Jeffs/FLDS horseshit when they are too young to understand that it is bullshit and when they are under parental/group pressure to beeeeeeelieve in such bullshit.

    How is FLDS doctrine any more valid than the doctrine of Heaven's Gate or People's Temple or Aumism?

    The answer is, it ain't.
    I don't support the FLDS religious practices. They are not part of my church. The FLDS do not sustain the real prophet, seer and revelator Thomas S. Monson. If you watched the video that I posted earlier you would find that our churches are wide apart in beliefs. I would defend any group of people if the state moved in and captived their children, the Baptists, Blacks, gays, or even the Muslims. What the state of Texas did was just wrong and my beliefs have nothing to do with my stand. It isn't a matter of their doctrine being right or not. The FLDS Constitutional Rights have been violated.

    http://www.ericpetersautos.com/forum...;topicseen#new

  6. #6
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    "I don't support the FLDS religious practices. They are not part of my church. The FLDS do not sustain the real prophet, seer and revelator Thomas S. Monson."

    You might as well say there's an invisible parrot on your shoulder who is plugged into the Divine Unconscious.... or maybe Son of Sam's dog?

    I, too, have had a revelation. And it is this: Claims made by self-styled "seers" and "prophets" are bullshit on their face until proved otherwise. Which ain't never happened and ain't never gonna happen.

    There is just one truth with regard to religion/spiritual belief: It is that none of us "knows" anything. We may believe any number of things about god, whether there is such a being, what this being wants, what happens to us after we die, etc. But these beliefs are not to be confused with facts or truth; nor is one set of beliefs more or less valid than the beliefs held by others on the subject.

    Anyone who claims more is not only full of shit - he's infected with the virus of sectarianism... the idea that his/her "belief" is the "right" belief and all the other (equally unproved, equally dubious, equally "faith-based" and fact-challenged) religious beliefs are wrong.

    From this basic error of thought - and the self-righteous arrogance that accompanies it - springs all the evil associated with religion over time - from the genocide of the Old Testament to the Inquisition of the New to the terrorist atrocities of 9/11 to the disgusting practices of the FLDS cult.

    We all have to decide what we believe about existence - and human purpose - for ourselves. But it is a matter of private conscience and anyone who spoon feeds their own personal arbitrary beliefs to kids as "the truth" (or tries to force it on other adults) is someone who needs to be stomped on, hard.




  7. #7
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    The issue isn't yours or my beliefs, but do you support the constitution of the United States of America -- without adding your own personal qualifiers.

    Do these people have a right to practice their religion - 1st amendment: no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: And do they have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, - - -no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

    The state of Texas totally disregarded all of the above. Threw it in the trash and trashed an entire community and stole their children.

  8. #8
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Their right to practice their religion ends with the law. That is, if the practice of their religion involves illegal activities, then it can't be allowed. Rastafarians aren't allowed to smoke marijuana either. Illegal activities cannot be protected under the mantle of "religious freedom".

    And I'm tired of Ruby Ridge and Waco being used as examples of oppression.

  9. #9
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Their right to practice their religion ends with the law. That is, if the practice of their religion involves illegal activities, then it can't be allowed. Rastafarians aren't allowed to smoke marijuana either. Illegal activities cannot be protected under the mantle of "religious freedom".

    And I'm tired of Ruby Ridge and Waco being used as examples of oppression.
    If a law has been broken, why hasn't anyone been arrested for breaking said law? Agreed that some of the people masterfully manipulated the law by having spiritual wives, and only one legal wife. However, how is that so different from people living together and/or having multiple partners? You don't see CPS taking away their children, do you? OK, how about the allegations of sexual child abuse? If they have any proof - and they don't - why haven't they arrested the perpetrators?

    Read what the Mental Health workers have written about the FLDS fiasco. They were on the inside, and now the truth emerges.

    Click here: Caregivers blast Texas' treatment of polygamous sect's women, children - Salt Lake Tribune

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520

  10. #10
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    The issue isn't yours or my beliefs, but do you support the constitution of the United States of America -- without adding your own personal qualifiers.

    Do these people have a right to practice their religion - 1st amendment: no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: And do they have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, - - -no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

    The state of Texas totally disregarded all of the above. Threw it in the trash and trashed an entire community and stole their children.

    I fail to see how stautory rape is protected under freedom of religion. I was a police officer for 10 years. There were times, fortunately not many, I had to reach up and touch my badge to remind myself that I was to enforce the law, not take it into my own hands. When you are the first officer on the scene and see child abuse first hand, before the medics even get there, one has to rely on profession comportment. I won't go into detail due to the privacy of a minor. However, I have no tolerance for people who want control over others and all the wealth those people own. Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    I did some psycology research when I took hostage negotiation courses and the cult, not religion of polygamy is nothing more than selfish pride. Just like a guy who has to have more toys, like 4 wheelers and car and boats and so on, the men compete with each other to see how many women they can collect. Children are just pawns in their dominance games. An underage child forced to marry an older man has ben raped. Period. Keep in mind how the children have lived. Granted, they are polite. Kids in my family are taught to say "sir" and "ma'am" and "thank you" as well as showing consideration for others. How many of the children of this cult with grow up to be considerate and how many will see women as chattel to be controlled?

    As for Texas taking the constitution and throwing it in the trash, nope. They had to wait until a complaint gave them probable cause to get a warrant. That is what the law of the land requires. I have seen nothing that would lead me to think the police and other authorities acted in anything less than a professional manner. As far as I can tell, they are respecting the legal rights of everybody involved as well as the conditions allow. Yes, some of the children and mothers hyave been separated. How else will things be settled? Hear say is NOT admissable in court. Whether charges are followed through or dropped, the state has to prove its case.


    As for their prophet, I guess they have different commandments than the bible I grew up with. Mine has God saying "thou shalt have no other gods before me". Then again, mine also says not to covet your neighbors wife either. I think passing women around would go against that.
    Honk if you love Jesus.

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  11. #11
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    The issue isn't yours or my beliefs, but do you support the constitution of the United States of America -- without adding your own personal qualifiers.

    Do these people have a right to practice their religion - 1st amendment: no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: And do they have the right to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, - - -no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

    The state of Texas totally disregarded all of the above. Threw it in the trash and trashed an entire community and stole their children.

    I fail to see how stautory rape is protected under freedom of religion. I was a police officer for 10 years. There were times, fortunately not many, I had to reach up and touch my badge to remind myself that I was to enforce the law, not take it into my own hands. When you are the first officer on the scene and see child abuse first hand, before the medics even get there, one has to rely on profession comportment. I won't go into detail due to the privacy of a minor. However, I have no tolerance for people who want control over others and all the wealth those people own. Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    I did some psycology research when I took hostage negotiation courses and the cult, not religion of polygamy is nothing more than selfish pride. Just like a guy who has to have more toys, like 4 wheelers and car and boats and so on, the men compete with each other to see how many women they can collect. Children are just pawns in their dominance games. An underage child forced to marry an older man has ben raped. Period. Keep in mind how the children have lived. Granted, they are polite. Kids in my family are taught to say "sir" and "ma'am" and "thank you" as well as showing consideration for others. How many of the children of this cult with grow up to be considerate and how many will see women as chattel to be controlled?

    As for Texas taking the constitution and throwing it in the trash, nope. They had to wait until a complaint gave them probable cause to get a warrant. That is what the law of the land requires. I have seen nothing that would lead me to think the police and other authorities acted in anything less than a professional manner. As far as I can tell, they are respecting the legal rights of everybody involved as well as the conditions allow. Yes, some of the children and mothers hyave been separated. How else will things be settled? Hear say is NOT admissable in court. Whether charges are followed through or dropped, the state has to prove its case.


    As for their prophet, I guess they have different commandments than the bible I grew up with. Mine has God saying "thou shalt have no other gods before me". Then again, mine also says not to covet your neighbors wife either. I think passing women around would go against that.
    I'm sure the things you've seen are horrible, but your experience isn't what is going on here. You obviously didn't read the letters written by the Mental Health workers that had been hired by Texas CPA either, nor viewed any of the videos that I have sent over. In fact it seems that you have even ignored my own statement of if -- IF - there has been any sexual crimes committed then that person(s) should have been arrested. There have been no arrests. None, ziltch, zero. When have you worked on a crime when no one was arrested? When have you worked on a situation where the police came in and took an entire community of children because of one compliant. I for one am very afraid of policemen such as yourself. I am very afraid of a govt. who condones such behavior.

  12. #12
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.

  13. #13
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.


  14. #14
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.

    The point is that he announced that they'd have to come and get him, then holed up armed in a hideaway with his family.

    If you have a warrant out, even on trumped up charges, do you really expect a good outcome from that kind of situation? Better to turn yourself in and fight it. If he had, he'd still have a family.

    Similarly in Waco, when Federal Agents came and knocked on their front door, shooting at them might not have been the wisest move. In both these cases, the "victims" sealed their own fates by making utterly foolish, futile decisions.

    The Second Amendment does not give anyone the right to take up arms against law enforcement officers executing their duty.

  15. #15
    Senior Member grouch's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    Im sure the things you've seen are horrible, but your experience isn't what is going on here. You obviously didn't read the letters written by the Mental Health workers that had been hired by Texas CPA either, nor viewed any of the videos that I have sent over. In fact it seems that you have even ignored my own statement of if -- IF - there has been any sexual crimes committed then that person(s) should have been arrested. There have been no arrests. None, ziltch, zero. When have you worked on a crime when no one was arrested? When have you worked on a situation where the police came in and took an entire community of children because of one compliant. I for one am very afraid of policemen such as yourself. I am very afraid of a govt. who condones such behavior.


    I worked lots of crimes where no one was arrested. Insufficient evidence means no arrest and no conviction. There is an ongoing investigation into sex crimes. There should be NO rush to judgement. That is what due process is about. The accused will get their day in court. Be careful how you use legal terms. For instance, if you hit another car you will be ticketed. You may not go to jail. However, on the police report you will be marked yes when it asks if you were arrested.


    There are several children locally now in foster care. Because an adult played the game that you are defending, a 3 year old child was recently buried.No complaint was made in time to remove him from an abusive parent. His twin sister was more fortunate and his siblings managed to also survive. I worked very closely with social services several times. I removed children when the parent was more concerned with the loss of the wlefare check than the welfare of the children. The polygamous sect shows all the hallmarks of someone wanting to hold onto children for personal gain.

    I will admit that I haven't read all your statements very closely. They seem to be repeating the same thing over and over. As to the type of police officer I was scaring you, I did that to a lot of people. That's why I turned my badge and equipment in. I felt the law was to be applied to everybody equally. I lost my dress hat and hat badge because I forgot and left it on the roof of my unit car once. When I heard it go "thump" and got turned around, someone had a really neat souvenier. I refused to make a U turn in a posted "No U Turn" area even though I was in a marked police car. Nobody would say anything in most cases but it was against the law. Then there was the time the mayors car was towed off because it was illegally parked.

    The helpless in our society need to be protected. Children have no say and very few advocates. Now the state of Texas has stepped in when they have probable cause to believe child abuse has occured. Now it's possible that no charges will be filed in which case the children should be returned to their parents if a suitable home is provided. However, since a complaint has been filed, the children need to have advocates step up for them.


    Socrates put it very clearly when he stated that if you want to live in a society, you must follow the rules of that society. He believed it so strongly that when sentenced to death for impiety, he had several opportunities to flee but remained to have his sentence executed. I don't live anywhere near Texas but I wouldn't hesitate to give whoever decided to protect the children a pat on the back and a hearty "Atta Boy/Girl". I have seen too many times through the years where a parent claimed their rights denied those same rights to the child. The child was considered property, not a human being. Just like the cult you are defending.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.
    The weapon was between 1/16" and 1/8" shorter than the legal limit.
    His mistakes were:
    1. Allowing himself to be pushed/prodded into making it
    2. Not leaving himself some slack in the barrel length, in case someone's ruler read shorter than his.

    Oh, and I don't agree with his personal beliefs. But they're his to have.

    Chip H.

    Former owner: 2012 Honda Civic LX, 2006 Honda Ridgeline RTL, 2000 Honda CR-V EX, 2003 MINI Cooper S, 1992 Honda Accord LX, 1999 Mercedes ML-320, 1995 VW Jetta GLX, 1991 Mercury Capri XR2, 1981 Mercury Zephyr, 1975 Chevrolet Impala

  17. #17
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.
    The weapon was between 1/16" and 1/8" shorter than the legal limit.
    His mistakes were:
    1. Allowing himself to be pushed/prodded into making it
    2. Not leaving himself some slack in the barrel length, in case someone's ruler read shorter than his.

    Oh, and I don't agree with his personal beliefs. But they're his to have.

    Chip H.
    Exactly.

    And it seems clear that waaaay excessive force was used. Even if you don't accept the entrapment argument, sawing off a shotgun is a pretty minor thing. For this, they had to assault the man's home with a strike team and heavy weapons?


  18. #18
    gail
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Quote Originally Posted by gail
    Im sure the things you've seen are horrible, but your experience isn't what is going on here. You obviously didn't read the letters written by the Mental Health workers that had been hired by Texas CPA either, nor viewed any of the videos that I have sent over. In fact it seems that you have even ignored my own statement of if -- IF - there has been any sexual crimes committed then that person(s) should have been arrested. There have been no arrests. None, ziltch, zero. When have you worked on a crime when no one was arrested? When have you worked on a situation where the police came in and took an entire community of children because of one compliant. I for one am very afraid of policemen such as yourself. I am very afraid of a govt. who condones such behavior.


    I worked lots of crimes where no one was arrested. Insufficient evidence means no arrest and no conviction. There is an ongoing investigation into sex crimes. There should be NO rush to judgement. That is what due process is about. The accused will get their day in court. Be careful how you use legal terms. For instance, if you hit another car you will be ticketed. You may not go to jail. However, on the police report you will be marked yes when it asks if you were arrested.
    I am always careful in using legal terms, e.g., murder is a legal term, so when I refer to abortion I use the phrase "killing an unborn baby," since it is legal to dispose of a fetus. However, as you have asked me to be careful in using legal terms, I will ask you to keep your reference of experience to child abuse/neglect situations. OK?

    Getting back to the YFZ Ranch debacle, Texas has violated its own laws in rounding up all the children and taking them into custody. When dealing with children, there is no time for due process. Children assume that they must have done something wrong to cause the problem that they find themselves in. The way that they cope is often block it out. They do this by sleeping more than usual, or by acting out, and the most common way to cope is called the "Stockholm Syndrome," where they identify with their captors. The harm has already been done. Trust has been crushed. They can no longer depend on their parents, because their parents didn't protect them from this travesty. A feeling is neither right or wrong, it just is, a child always feels that the Mother is all-powerful and if she didn't protect them, than she didn't love them. It is very obvious that these children have and are loved by their mothers.


    Real some legalese [/color] http://messengerandadvocate.wordpres...s-on-the-flds/


    There are several children locally now in foster care. Because an adult played the game that you are defending, a 3 year old child was recently buried.No complaint was made in time to remove him from an abusive parent. His twin sister was more fortunate and his siblings managed to also survive. I worked very closely with social services several times. I removed children when the parent was more concerned with the loss of the wlefare check than the welfare of the children. The polygamous sect shows all the hallmarks of someone wanting to hold onto children for personal gain.

    What game am I defending? I don't recall any child or children being buried at the YFZ Ranch. I don't recall any parent being concerned over welfare checks. What personal gain could they possibly acheive other than living their faith and hoping that through training their children will chose the same lifestyle. Don't we all want that for our children? I know that I certainly tried to rear my children to live by the standards that I set for them. It is only rumored that any of the members received welfare checks, and only a few have admitted receiving Social Society, and those were for disabled or aged members. I haven't heard of any investigation into fraud - have you?

    I will admit that I haven't read all your statements very closely. They seem to be repeating the same thing over and over. As to the type of police officer I was scaring you, I did that to a lot of people. That's why I turned my badge and equipment in. I felt the law was to be applied to everybody equally. I lost my dress hat and hat badge because I forgot and left it on the roof of my unit car once. When I heard it go "thump" and got turned around, someone had a really neat souvenier. I refused to make a U turn in a posted "No U Turn" area even though I was in a marked police car. Nobody would say anything in most cases but it was against the law. Then there was the time the mayors car was towed off because it was illegally parked.

    Many of my comments may seem reptitious, but from different sources for the purpose of being persuasive by using the knowledge and/or research of others, e.g., Eric Peters is a supporter of Ron Paul and I found a web site that shows that Ron Paul also feels that there has been a grave injustice done to the citizens of the YFZ Ranch and their children. Read for yourself:
    Click here: New website! www.captivefldschildren.org, and contact info to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE | Ron Paul for Presi

    The helpless in our society need to be protected. Children have no say and very few advocates. Now the state of Texas has stepped in when they have probable cause to believe child abuse has occured. Now it's possible that no charges will be filed in which case the children should be returned to their parents if a suitable home is provided. However, since a complaint has been filed, the children need to have advocates step up for them.

    The damage has already been done. If there was any truth to the claims than the men should have been removed, and possibly CPS workers assigned to mingle among the families, rather than removing the children gestapo tactics. There would have been less harm to the children while the allegations were being investigated and cheaper for the state.

    I feel that Texas has overstepped its boundaries and the actions of CPS have caused grave harm and injustice that will be a plaque upon these children and their parents for generations to come. The flagrant trampling upon the FLDS’ Constitutional Rights is appalling. Even the mental health workers associated with CPS agree with me on this one.

    Click here: Caregivers blast Texas' treatment of polygamous sect's women, children - Salt Lake Tribune

    http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9238520


    Socrates put it very clearly when he stated that if you want to live in a society, you must follow the rules of that society. He believed it so strongly that when sentenced to death for impiety, he had several opportunities to flee but remained to have his sentence executed. I don't live anywhere near Texas but I wouldn't hesitate to give whoever decided to protect the children a pat on the back and a hearty "Atta Boy/Girl". I have seen too many times through the years where a parent claimed their rights denied those same rights to the child. The child was considered property, not a human being. Just like the cult you are defending.
    [/quote]

    Rules and laws are always being broken, revised and repealed. Sometimes this is good and sometimes it isn't. As I mentioned earlier in this post abortion is a prime example, speed limits is another, homosexuality, etc. Other laws remain on the books and everyone ignores them, e.g., eating ice cream on Sunday in Connecticut, or shooting a Mormon on sight in Missouri. It used to be a sin to have sex outside of marriage - fornication, it was called, legally meant to have illicit sexual intercourse. Not anymore - it is promoted and glamorized, but the law is probably still on the books. In almost every state in the union, and maybe every state, a female could get married as young as 13 years old, and she still can in New Hampshire. How ironic that 50 years ago with young women were inoccent that they could get married so young, and now that most females are worldly and wear clothes that would make a street-walker blush, it is illegal.

    You do realize that Texas changed several of its laws to be directed specially at the FLDS, don't you? The government does not want any of us to withdraw from society and be free-thinkers, as we then become a threat to them. The threat to the state becomes greater if we gather together in a group such as the FLDS have done. This is why they went in there with armed gespato tactics in order to devide and concur.

    I do not believe that anyone was treated as property in the polygamist society. The Scriptures are very clean on how women and children are to be treated, and the Lord warms men that He better not hear them crying out to him or it would be better for a milstone to be around his neck and drowned. (I've taken liberty of several Scriptures here, since there are some that don't like me to give chapter and verse.) The FLDS people are God-fearing and they live by their beliefs and teach their children to do so as well.

    I worked with DSS in Colorado and watched the sucess of a program that I suggested of having emergency child care for parents, usually a mother who needed short-term help (less than 24 hours), and to put workers into the home to observe the needs of the family. In other words teaching the mother parenting skills, rather than removing the child(ren). It was a huge sucess, as were similar programs throughout the country. I realize and accept that there are situations where a child must be removed from its home for its safety, but all means should be exhausted before this drastic measure is taken. Our children do not belong to the state. There are many techniques to rearing children to becoming well-adjusted adults, but it is rarely in the foster care system.


    PS the spell check isn't working, so if I have any misspelled words, please don't dwell on that. Thank you.

  19. #19
    Senior Member misterdecibel's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.
    The weapon was between 1/16" and 1/8" shorter than the legal limit.
    His mistakes were:
    1. Allowing himself to be pushed/prodded into making it
    2. Not leaving himself some slack in the barrel length, in case someone's ruler read shorter than his.

    Oh, and I don't agree with his personal beliefs. But they're his to have.

    Chip H.
    Exactly.

    And it seems clear that waaaay excessive force was used. Even if you don't accept the entrapment argument, sawing off a shotgun is a pretty minor thing. For this, they had to assault the man's home with a strike team and heavy weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiph
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    Quote Originally Posted by misterdecibel
    Quote Originally Posted by grouch
    Vernon whatsisname took all the women for himself. He took all the money and demanded prayers to himself. When he was about to lose it, he killed himself (no big loss) and took a lot of other people with him.


    Randy Weaver was a neo-nazi asshole with outstanding warrants for weapons charges. He told the authorities they wouldn't take him without a fight, then holed himself up in a cabin, putting his family in harm's way.
    The neo-Nazi part is true, kind of. I think he was a white separatist - which is not really a Nazi (though the two are often taken as synonymous). An asshole? Maybe. I didn't know him. He seemed to just want to be left alone. I personally don't think being an asshole or wanting to be left alone ought to be criminal offenses.

    As far as the rest - and maybe I have my facts wrong - but I recall the guy was basically pushed and prodded by an undercover agent into sawing off a shotgun for him. That was it.
    The weapon was between 1/16" and 1/8" shorter than the legal limit.
    His mistakes were:
    1. Allowing himself to be pushed/prodded into making it
    2. Not leaving himself some slack in the barrel length, in case someone's ruler read shorter than his.

    Oh, and I don't agree with his personal beliefs. But they're his to have.

    Chip H.
    His mistake was taking refuge in an armed encampment, instead of surrendering to the minor charges against him. That wasn't his "home", it was a camp in the woods. And he announced that he would have to be taken by force. Yeah the ATF or FBI or whoever overreacted, but then so did Weaver.

  20. #20
    Vulture of The Western World Eric's Avatar
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    Re: Are they going to kill me?

    "His mistake was taking refuge in an armed encampment, instead of surrendering to the minor charges against him. That wasn't his "home", it was a camp in the woods. And he announced that he would have to be taken by force. Yeah the ATF or FBI or whoever overreacted, but then so did Weaver."

    From what I know about it, it seems the feds wanted to make an example of him - which gets my back up to begin with. If all he did was saw off a shotgun (and we're talking fractions of an inch "legal" vs. "illegal" - so a pretty pedantic and frankly bullshit charge) after being badgered and cajoled to do so by an undercover agent basically working to get him to commit a crime he probably otherwise would not have committed - then the whole thing is rotten from the get-go.

    As far as the rest - why not just issue a bench warrant? The crime was not serious (even if the charges were true) and Weaver had done nothing to give evidence he was a threat to anyone. Sending in a SWAT team was way over the top. And they came in unannounced - surprised the Weaver kid who (reasonably) may have thought they were being attacked by who the hell knows who... and it went downhill from there.

    As far as "camp" - not sure what you mean by that. I saw the news coverage; unless I am mistaken it was a cabin in the woods where he lived with his wife and kids. Perhaps small and unassuming - but still sounds like a home to me. Is my place a "camp," too - just because it's off the beaten path in the woods on a bit of acreage? I also have guns - and generally want to be left the hell alone. So I sympathize with Weaver as far as his wanting to live in his space, off the grid, as he saw fit. I haven't heard anyone - not even the authorities - claim he was bothering anyone, let alone threatening anyone.

    There's an old country song that comes to mind:

    "I don't want nothing from no one, if I can't get it on my own. If you don't like the way I'm living, you just leave this long haired country boy alone."

    I've got no problem with that philosophy myself....







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