“Your” Car Won’t Be Beginning in 2015

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After a certain point, it’s not paranoia.

The latest brick in the wall is the predictably named “Moving Ahead For Progress in the 21st Century Act,” also known as Senate Bill 1813. (See here for the full text of the bill itself; the relevant section is 31406.) This legislation – already passed by the Senate and likely to be passed by the House – will impose a legal requirement that all new cars made beginning with the 2015 models be fitted with so-called Event Data Recorders (EDRs). These are the “black boxes” you may have read about that store data about how you drive – including whether you wear a seat belt and how fast you drive – ostensibly for purposes of post-accident investigation.

These EDRs are not new. GM and other automakers have been installing them in new cars for years – in GM’s case, since the late 1990s. What’s new is the proposed federal mandate, which would make it illegal to not have one – or (in all likelihood) to remove or disable one in a car required to have the device.

The question arises: why?

Several possibilities come to mind:

First, the EDRs could – and almost certainly will be – tied into your vehicle’s GPS. (Most new and late model cars, conveniently, already have this, too.) Then data about your driving can be transmitted – as well as recorded. To whom? Your insurance company, of course. Progressive Insurance already has such a system in place – voluntary, for the moment. (See here for more on that.)

When EDRs are mandated, you will no longer have a choice.

We’ll be told it’s all for the sake of (groan) “safety” – just like the old 55 MPH highway speed limit and every radar trap in the country. Of course, it’s really for the sake of revenue – the government’s and the insurance company’s. Your rates will be “adjusted” in real time, for every incident of “speeding” or not buckling up. It’ll be so much more efficient than using cops to issue tickets. After all, so many fishes escape! With an EDR in every car, no one will escape. Your “adjusted” premium will be waiting for you when you get home.

You’ve got mail!

And naturally, they – the government, insurance companies – will be able to track your every move, noting (and recording) where you’ve been and when. This will create a surveillance net beyond anything that ever existed previously. Some will not sweat this: After all, if you’ve got nothing to hide, why worry? Except for the fact that, courtesy of almost everything we do being either “illegal” or at least “suspicious” we all have a great deal to hide. The naivety of the Don’t Worry, it’s No Big Deal crowd is breathtaking. Did the average Soviet citizen also “not have anything to hide,” and hence why worry?

But the last possibility is probably the creepiest possibility: EDRs tied into your car’s GPS will give them – the government and its corporate fuck buddies – literal physical control over (hack) “your” vehicle. This is not conspiracy theorizing. It is technological fact. Current GM vehicles equipped with the same technology about to be mandated for every vehicle can be disabled remotely. Just turned off. All the OnStar operator has to do is send the appropriate command over the GPS to your car’s computer, which controls the engine. It is one of the features touted by OnStar – of course, as a “safety” feature.

In the future, it will be used to limit your driving – for the sake of “energy conservation” or perhaps, “the environment.” It will be the perfect, er, vehicle, for implementing U.N. Agenda 21 – the plan to herd all of us formerly free-range tax cattle into urban feedlots. So much easier to control us this way. No more bailing out to the country or living off the grid – unless you get there (and to your work) by walking.

The pieces are all coming together.

First, computer-controlled cars. Next, widespread adoption of GPS in cars. Then, EDRs tied into them.

Viola. “Your” car is suddenly under the control of others. Just as “your” other (cough, hack) property – “your” home, for example – is under the control of others. It does not matter that you paid for it.  Or even that you have the legal fiction of ownership. You do not control “your” property – hence it is really the property of others. You are merely allowed to use said property – under certain conditions, by the leave of the true owners – the government and its cronies in the corporatocracy.

And once SB 1813 is passed and signed into law, there will no longer be an opt-out. In fact, sure as the rooster crows in the morning, you can bet the next step will a law requiring older cars not originally fitted with the technology be fitted with it – or else decommissioned. (I wrote about that previously; see here.) It is inconceivable that they – the government and its insurance company cronies – will allow anyone to drive a vehicle not subject to this monitoring and control. They will insist it’s not “safe” – and of course, “unfair” that owners of older cars not equipped with EDRs are able to “get away” with “speeding” and not wearing their seat belts.

Our cars were once a tangible expression of the freedom ideal. They are fast becoming mobile cages. And the really devilish thing is they’re making us pay the costs of our own imprisonment, too.

Throw it in the Woods?

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eric

Author of "Automotive Atrocities" and "Road Hogs" (MBI). Currently living amongst the Edentulites in rural SW Virginia. 

  234 comments for ““Your” Car Won’t Be Beginning in 2015

  1. James
    April 19, 2012 at 12:47 pm

    I wonder what effect, if any, the passage of S1813 would have on motorycle sales. I’m not talking about sales of leisure-grade chrome tractors; rather, bikes that make sense for practical, every-day use in most weather conditions. Motorcycles are not currently subject to the same emission and engine control regulations that automobiles are (as you well know). More to the point, bikes are SO easy to modify, even for the amateur wrench. Electronic nanny fitments could easily be defeated. All it takes is the introduction of a fuel injection module or a Timing Retard Eliminator to unplug that which has been plugged up.

    I am likely wondering in vain. The modern American consumer will accept whatever is forced upon them. Heck, they’ll probably like it when it happens.

    • Rooney
      April 19, 2012 at 12:59 pm

      If cars are regulated in this manner could motorcycles be far behind? It’s also entirely possible that a cabal of government and insurance could move to eliminate motorcycles entirely through punitive premiums and anti-manufacturer lawsuits.

      Anybody seen any 3-wheeler ATC’s lately?

      • April 19, 2012 at 1:40 pm

        That’s coming, too. I think the only reason why bikes are still (relatively) free of government-mandated crap is because they’re still a relatively tiny niche market – and of course, most Clovers don’t ride and so don’t really know much about bikes (especially what bikes are capable).

        But give them time…

        • Angela
          May 4, 2012 at 12:07 am

          We the people need to make a stand.. Our representatives are not representing us.. This is total BS..The NDAA, The Patriot Act, When is enough..Enough… This is our Country!! Its not meant to be ran by a few corrupt government officials that have control issues.. Stand up people!!!!!!

          • May 4, 2012 at 9:21 am

            If only they would. Most do not – and do not want to. They’d rather be “safe.”

  2. Tinsley Grey Sammons
    April 19, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    *snip* “The question arises: Why?”*snip*

    Why? As usual, just follow the money and take the incomparably eloquent George Carlin seriously when, concerning the slimy parasites ruling America, he vehemently and repeatedly said: They don’t give a fuck about YOU!

    Rest assured that They don’t.

    I look for “Your” Car Won’t Be Beginning In 2015.” to appear in LewRockwell.com, but it ought to cover the front page of every newspaper in America. (Of course, responsibliity for the payments, including an outrageously large sales tax, will continue to be yours.)

    No Power that contravenes the PRINCIPLES underpining the Unanimous Declaration has Lawful Authority. Americans not favored by the Establishment have much greater just cause for a revolution than did the Patriot Colonists in 1776.

    Sometimes the only way to get de facto criminals to cease and desist is to kill them in lawful self and property defense. One would think that the numerous lessons provided by history would make it unnecessary but as of this writing, they haven’t. Truly a sad testimony to persistent ignorance and obstinacy.

    WE[few]hold these [unamendable] Truths…

    Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

    • MoT
      April 20, 2012 at 4:19 pm

      Carlin was a prophet. I used to laugh but now I cry.

    • Jean
      August 15, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      “Sometimes the only way to get de facto criminals to cease and desist is to kill them”

      Fixed it for ya.
      They control the law; it will never be lawful to resist THEM.
      Now bend over and grab your ankles.

      (And given your date there – I’d refer to you as “dad”, but don’t want to come across as offensive there – it’s meant as an honorific, you being about the same age as my father, of 1939 vintage. But he and I have had this same conversation – and IIRC, we ahve here, as well – and it always comes to divergent answers. I’m for action, but don’t have the tools to act alone; he’s for passive actions, such as voting, writing, talking – but can’t even leave the extended NYC area. He still thinks Brooklyn is the world.
      But as Franklin said, if we do not hang together – we’ll most definitely hang seperately. Please think in those terms; the shots have been fired already, and NOT BY US.)

  3. GW
    April 19, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    Okay – the info in this article really F’d up my day – now I am pissed off and ready to go buy a couple of identical old vehicles (one to use and the others for parts)just so that I don’t have to put up with this type of Authoritarian BS in the future. What is my best option – maybe and old ford 4.9 Inline 6 cyl?

    • April 19, 2012 at 1:44 pm

      You and me both!

      Pretty much anything pre OBD-II would do. I’d personally go back to pre-computer (so pre early ’80s). A ’70s Ford F-truck updated with aftermarket fuel injection and an overdrive transmission and modern wheels/tires would be a great choice.

      If, of course, they don’t make them illegal.

      • GW
        April 19, 2012 at 1:59 pm

        It could always be tagged as Historic or an Antique.
        Plus, you can always drop the old components into a newer frame and then be on your merry old way and the suits will be none the wiser. Hell, if the cubans can do it with the old chevy’s for the last 50 years, then surely American “Engine-nuity” (be it Yankee or Redneck)is up to the task!

        • GW
          April 19, 2012 at 2:01 pm

          …newer frame for the updated VIN of course….

          • Jean
            August 15, 2013 at 4:45 pm

            And then, when the cops see a new car go by, and DON’T get a ping from the on-board computers? Better bet they’ll be scrumming you to death as a “terrorist.”

            Why does everyone think they can put the fucking genie back in the bottle?

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 19, 2012 at 3:40 pm

        For an Individual to fly beneath the radar is a natural response but of course it does nothing to disabuse America of unlawful power.

        The ballot alone won’t help either. Folks are going to have to take a much deeper interest in the lawful powers found in the philosophical arsenal left us by the Scottish Enlightenment and the Founders of the American Republic.

        WE the People must do whatever is necessary to destroy in detail the Unlawful Power usurped by career office holders, juris doctors, and juris doctors who ARE career office holders.

        Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

        • Don
          April 19, 2012 at 4:32 pm

          Couldn’t agree more. People long for a change to society but they’re not willing to sacrifice a change to their current way of life to get it.

          Until people realize that what’s going on in this country is bigger than any one of us. Until they realize that the only way things are going to change in this country is by accepting that one might very well have to be willing let go of EVERYTHING they currently consider to be a part of their life and accept the fact that their way of life right down to the flatscreen tv, Chili’s and going to movies may have to be sacrificed in the short-run for true social change in the long-run, then nothing will change.

          Right now all I hear is a bunch of moaning, bitching and complaining from faceless people hiding behind their computers. Everyone’s still paying all their taxes; all their traffic citations; allowing the TSA to grope them up and down etc…

          I guess things just haven’t gotten bad enough down on the farm yet. I wonder how bad they have to get.

          • swamprat
            April 19, 2012 at 5:08 pm

            People aren’t jumping on board to change things because in part, they are apathetic or ignorant. For those who aren’t, another reason that we are not jumping on board is that there is no clear path forward besides facing a firing squad.

          • Tinsley Grey Sammons
            April 19, 2012 at 5:19 pm

            Informed Grand Juries backed by their County’s Justice Association could restore respect for the American Ideal thereby making bloody revolution unneccessary. Revolutions are dangerous since when one does prevail, for the moment at least a militant dictatorship does in fact exist*. (In my opinion one of the best movies ever made is VIVA ZAPATA. If you’ve not seen it, by all means do so. If you have seen it, watch it again.)

            As long as Citizens do no more than vote and hope, statism will only grow stronger. Beginning with the Bill of Rights, the American People are going to have to do their own judging and lawyering.

            Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

            *Not every man is a Cincinnatus or a George Washington.

          • MoT
            April 20, 2012 at 4:25 pm

            Tinsley, George is a terrible example of the sort of double-talking, back-stabbing, politicians we have today. No sooner than the supposed “revolution” was over than good ole lying George put down the Whiskey Rebellion. The SOB showed his true colors that day and his example has been copied ever since.

          • Scott
            April 20, 2012 at 7:05 pm

            Thanks for the film hint Tinsley (Viva Zapata), unfortunately it looks like the title hasn’t been released on DVD and VHS VCR’s have just about gone the way of 8 track tapes. Sigh. Technical editing of our cultural memory?

            Don’t be confused by a similar title, “Viva Zapato!”, which apparently is about a woman’s shoe fetish.

  4. Don
    April 19, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    I have a 2007 Ford Focus and 2007 Jeep Wrangler. Does anyone know if they come from the manufacturer with a GPS and/or EDR?

    I’m googling it but not with much luck.

    • Bob
      April 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm

      I doubt it, but I wonder about the newer ones with the Synch system.

      • BrentP
        April 20, 2012 at 6:28 pm

        Sync relies entirely on your cell phone service to operate.
        There are a number of settings with it as well that the car owner controls.

        Turn off the cellphone or don’t have one and sync can’t do anything.

  5. BrentP
    April 19, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Future predictions aside, the devil of this bill is the details.

    The federal government can, with this bill, get involved with everyday traffic collisions. Furthermore it allows for impounding of vehicles involved in traffic collisions.

    This bill, while being a piece of the total surveillance system, I think operates more simply in the near term with existing laws.

    Think combining this with the war on drugs civil asset forfeiture. How much better will civil asset forfeiture work if government can have possession of your car in private for 72 hours?

  6. mithrandir
    April 19, 2012 at 2:57 pm

    This bill makes me long for the life of Grizzly Adams. It may not have all the amenities, but at least he was free.

  7. That One Guy
    April 19, 2012 at 5:22 pm

    Slightly off-topic but here’s a bit of good news for you Eric: according to the LRC blog the state of VA has passed a law preventing state officials from cooperating with federal attempts to seize individuals under NDAA. Who knows what good it will do, but it’s a start…

    http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2012/04/18/new-law-virginia-will-not-cooperate-with-ndaa-detention/

    • Gail
      April 19, 2012 at 7:38 pm

      Oh, hot DOG! This was a long time coming and was never a sure thing. There were a lot of online petitions floated and so on, different versions of the bill flying around, the governor threatening to veto it. This is *great*!

      Other states have passed resolutions — which along with $2 will get me a cup of coffee — but now that Virginia has blazed the trail, maybe they will follow with nullification bills of their own.

  8. Brad Smith
    April 19, 2012 at 6:09 pm

    One of my Great Aunts “owns” a home on Torch Lake in Northern Michigan. Each year she pays more in taxes than she paid for the house when she bought it. So each and every year she must buy back her home from the State. In other words she renews her lease each year for more and more over the origninal price she paid for it.

    Like I said the other day, I really would like to know what it would cost to buy my freedom from the slave owners. (although I know they would never actualy allow it at any price)

    As for Senate Bill 1813 it’s simply one more confirmation that we are living in a Fascist Police State.

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”.

    Benito Mussolini

    • April 19, 2012 at 8:32 pm

      Once you come to terms with the reality, it’s enraging.

      Here’s some quick math:

      Even out here in the Boonies, we pay about $1,700 annually for the privilege of squatting on “our” land. Let’s say we live here 30 years – and the rent never increases. That’s still $51,000 in rent – unadjusted for inflation. More than likely – counting inflation and counting the inevitable increases in the amount itself – it’s really well over $100k. That’s on after the other taxes.

      Is it any wonder people are insolvent?

      • Brad Smith
        April 19, 2012 at 9:16 pm

        It really does tick me off. If not for taxes I would be completely off the grid right now. I’m a prepper and mostly live off the land. However, thanks to taxes I am forced to work or I lose my house and property. Not that I work hard, I’m a musician so my work is also my play. But it’s still annoying. I have to come up with around $2,400 a year. Every time I write that check I think about what I could do with that money. How about a really nice new guitar? (the guitar I make my living with is only worth half that) How about a project car for one of my kids? I would like to put in a new pond. That would pay for it. I could just blast a pond, but of course they won’t let me do that even though Uncle Sam trained me in demolition.

    • Chris
      April 19, 2012 at 9:55 pm

      One thing has always bothered me regarding references to totalitarian states.

      Why do we use Nazi Germany, Hitler and Fascism as basic references for evil totalitarians when Marxist governments like the USSR and Stalin, or Red China and Mao, work so much better?

      Is it because we actually defeated the Nazis militarily and tried them in a court?

      Or is it because the press and academia have for decades admired and sympathized with the Great Experiment of Communism and refused to condemn Uncle Joe, while making Adolf Hitler into the worst human being to have ever lived?

      Or both?

      Hitler was bad, but he was a piker compared to Stalin and Mao.

      Fascism, Socialism and Communism are just different degrees of the same philosophy: Totalitarianism.

      You see it everywhere, from HOA regulations all the way up to Siberian death camps: The drive to force others to play the game your way.

      • Brad Smith
        April 19, 2012 at 10:08 pm

        “Fascism, Socialism and Communism are just different degrees of the same philosophy: Totalitarianism”.

        So true. Germany played the race card, Mao and Stalin played the class card, but in the end it was really the same thing.

        • Chris
          April 19, 2012 at 10:22 pm

          Man is a spiritual being; he needs to believe in something larger than himself. Throughout history, that something has traditionally been God or gods. But if man’s faith in God is destroyed, he will replace it with something else.

          Too often that something else has been a secular god called The State, and untold crimes have been committed it its name.

          Karl Marx was an evil man. He invented modern totalitarianism and gave it a religious fervor.

          The Soviet Union, Red China, Nazi Germany, Soviet Californistan…all these places are (or were) Marxist theocracies convinced that they were destined to conquer the world.

          Notice how modern totalitarianism likes to cloak itself in concepts like Inevitability? “We’re the wave of the future, there’s no alternate, etc…”

          Fascism, socialism and communism do not seek freedom. They seek slavery in the name of justice.

          • Jasmine
            April 20, 2012 at 2:50 am

            I agree completely!

          • Brad Smith
            April 20, 2012 at 8:32 am

            I hear you. Recently I have been debating with a Born Again Liberal Athiest who claims he was a libertarian. He calls himself a former Hayek disciple. I couldn’t care less how people worship or if they do at all, but it does seem that most people would rather be told how to live than to take personal responsibility seriously. I know the term Sheeple is a bit played out, but it really is fitting.

            This former Hayek disciple is one case in point. He didn’t find enough “leadership” in the libertarian movement. Now he is part of the herd and has bought into everything from Obama being a man of peace to AGW.

            Have you ever noticed how all these Born Again Athiest Liberals worship Science even though they seem to have no understanding of it at all? That also seems to go hand in hand with the Totalitarian States. You can’t even argue science with them because their belief is much deeper than their knowledge. They have faith in science and especially the State. No matter how many contradictions there are, somehow they manage to reconcile them all. You would think the cognitive dissonance alone would be crushing.

          • April 20, 2012 at 9:36 am

            These people are defectives – not Libertarians!

            I guess any philosophical movement attracts some people for the wrong reasons.

            Disclosure: I’m nether a believer nor an atheist; I just don’t know. I am open to facts – but religious belief ought to be a personal matter, kept to oneself. My only “beef” with any mere belief (religious or otherwise) is when it becomes the basis for insisting so and so must be done this way – “or else.”

          • Chris
            April 20, 2012 at 10:23 am

            When it comes to these people, it has nothing to do with science.

            This is about an assault on Christianity and its values, such as the one that says that EVERY individual has an inherent worth and rights come from God, as opposed to The State.

          • April 20, 2012 at 10:33 am

            This is a tough one, philosophically – for me.

            I understand that the Christian concepts of the worth of each individual (and his right to exercise free choice) were an essential element of what became Western civilization.

            At the same time, I know that one does not have to subscribe to Christianity or any other faith to behave decently – to operate from the principle of non-aggression, to believe in live and let live. Because that’s me.

            I have no animosity toward faith – except when it becomes dogma and dogmatics seek to impose their faith on me. And I concede that faith may be necessary to keep the average person in line, morally speaking – and thus, indirectly, the state too.

            My wish is that we (humanity) could move beyond faith and into the light of reason.

          • MoT
            April 20, 2012 at 4:30 pm

            Of course you can always throw in the word Democracy. Rule by the Mob, whether large numbers of slaves on the plantation or the Mafia sitting in DC.

          • Nunya Business
            May 3, 2012 at 2:38 am

            RE. “Born Again Liberal Atheists”
            Is that as opposed to the Born Again Conservative Atheists who worship Ayn Rand while cynically courting evangelicals?

            Interestingly, the only scenarios where intellectuals and science have been as reviled as much as are by America’s modern right wing have been during communist revolutions — Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Pol Pot regime, etc.

            The Nazis burned some books, but they substituted Jews for intellectuals as their scapegoats.

          • May 3, 2012 at 10:27 am

            In my opinion, Rand did more to delegitimize Libertarianism than any other writer of the 20th century. She was a powerful writer but also a severely screwed up person; a control freak, narcissist and hypocrite (despite being a very rich woman, she accepted Medicare while denouncing the welfare state). Her “cult” is not my cup of tea – and doesn’t represent the live – and let live Libertarianism I subscribe to.

            An example is religion: What you believe doesn’t concern me so long as you also agree not to try to force what you believe on anyone else. Rand held to a militant atheism: You must not believe – and not merely in God, but in anything that Ayn Rand personally did not believe in. In the Rand Universe, to disbelieve in or disagree with anything the Master stated as an absolute marked one as “irrational,” and much worse besides.

            I’m pretty irrational about old cars and bikes; I have more than I can use and none of them are very practical. Thus, I am guilty of being irrational by the Rand Standard.

            I am also open to the possibility that my limited senses and intellect prevent me from understanding the true nature of reality. Or put another way, I freely admit that I don’t know what happens at the quantum level – and neither did Miss Rand.

            Etc.

            The woman was a shrill martinet; a termagant. And none of her ideas were original, either.

            Spooner, Read, Mencken, etc. did a far better job articulating the message of human liberty than Miss Rand ever did.

          • May 3, 2012 at 12:27 pm

            Agreed, Eric! The deeper one goes into Randian Objectivism the more it becomes Liberty for the Few, and damn the rest.

            About religious faith, it can be a perfectly rational response to necessary non-omniscience, an entirely valid way to deal with the fact that one does not know everything. Ultimately, however, it isn’t about knowledge but about meaning, what one might call importantness. The opposite of faith is not rationality (my interest – or faith – in x is a proposition permeable to rational consideration) but nihilism.

          • BrentP
            May 3, 2012 at 1:39 pm

            Eric I believe you are correct. It is not uncommon to find someone who wishes to counter the arguments I present with something Rand wrote. That is hang her arguments on me. Not only is that a poor debate tactic, I’ve never read any of her books.

            I believe that in some government schools Rand’s books are required reading in some classes. That in and of itself tells me that these books serve to discredit libertarian ideas. Otherwise we would see clovers objecting to them being part of the coursework at the very minimum. That is if government allowed them to be read for school in the first place.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 20, 2012 at 1:13 am

        Hitler and Naziism are the modern standard because of the Holocaust. Solidarity and economic power among Jews is probably stronger than it is among any other people claiming a common ancestry and culture. But in America the Mormons might be running a close second. And both have violent elements that will murder when they deem it necessary. (According to my late acquaintance Nelson Burchfield esq., Gerry Spence himself was frightened off of a trial by the Mormons who did not want the defendant adequately defended. Burchfield stayed in spite of threats, did a good job, and survived.)

        Since most of the perps and victims of the Holocaust are now dead, Jews have milked it for about all that it is politically worth. Few Individuals today really give a damn.

        Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

        • Chris
          April 20, 2012 at 2:17 am

          Jews were also victims of the Soviets, who hated them as virulently as the Reich did.

          • Tinsley Grey Sammons
            April 20, 2012 at 2:58 am

            I think Whites are bothered by the fact that Jews obviously wield an influence and power that is out of proportrion to their numbers. Also, since so many Jews look European they are not readily identifiable as someone different or alien.

            Then of course there is the religious factor but the few Jews that I have known fairly well seemed more like atheists than believers. (I am a Redneck atheist.)

            I choose not to quarrel with anyone who respects the American Ideal. However, in a heartbeat, I will go to war with anyone who does not respect the Principles supporting the Unanimous Declaration.

            I do believe that the 1967 Attack on the USNS Liberty that killed American Sailors was deliberate but I’m not quite sure why it was ordered.

            Because of my Race I feel a kinship with Germans that I do not feel toward Jews. In my heart, blood is much thicker than nationality.

            tgsam

          • April 20, 2012 at 9:56 am

            LBJ was the real shithead in re the Liberty. He countermanded a local commander’s order to launch a rescue/defensive flight while the Liberty was being mauled. Reason? LBJ was looking for a causus belli to wheedle the American people into the war – on the side of the Israelis. Liberty was put in harm’s way – on purpose. LBJ was pissed that the Liberty survived. It was supposed to have been sunk – a victim of an “arab” attack.

            I don’t give a damn about Israel, myself. Anymore than I give a damn about South Korea or Somalia or Kosovo – in the sense that I don’t want anything to do with their internal affairs or their local politics, or be used as a milk cow to help “aid” them. I wish them well – and leave me alone. That’s all.

          • Chris
            April 20, 2012 at 3:14 am

            Well, this “White” is annoyed by the fact that the REALLY bad guys get a pass, while the comparative pissant gets put under a microscope and proclaimed Most Evil.

            Yeah it’s true, but it’s out of context.

            And personally, I would only go to war with someone who attacked me or my people. Whether or not they respect my principles is irrelevant to me.

          • Brad Smith
            April 20, 2012 at 8:53 am

            The biggest problem that I see is that the lesson they learned was to do unto others as they had done unto themselves. (not all but far too many) I will never understand the Zionists who decry their treatment but support the State of Israel and it’s treatment of the Palestinians.

        • Brad Smith
          April 20, 2012 at 9:06 am

          Tinsley, there are many Jewish Athiests. In fact they might be in the majority. You don’t have to have any faith in God to be Jewish it’s more about culture and tradition. I guess it depends on which branch of Judiasm you belong to.

        • April 20, 2012 at 10:22 am

          Here’s an experiment to judge the truth of this:

          Does anyone doubt what would happen to me if I wore a T-shirt with a picture of Hitler on it – or worse, the Nazi flag emblazoned on it – and took a walk in a public space?

          Now, put on a T-shirt with Stalin’s picture on it – or the Soviet flag. You might get a few dirty looks – but it’s doubtful you’d be verbally or physically assaulted.

          Yet Stalin murdered an estimated 30 million people and Soviet Russia enslaved half of Europe for 70 years.

          Hitler was horrible. But Stalin was by any objective standard worse. He killed everyone – anyone – not just the Jews (though he went after them, too). Read up on Lavrenty Beria sometime – a person mostly unknown to Americans – who of course immediately recognize the name of Herr H. Himmler. Beria was far worse.

          A workable historical analogy is the demonization of the South over slavery. And slavery was an atrocity. But meanwhile, life was no picnic for “free” Northern blacks. They had no legal standing; they were subject to arbitrary abuse – and received it frequently. The so-called Black Codes existed in the North before they ever came to the South. In some respects, they were worse off than Southern black slaves – who at least had a place to live after their useful working lives had come to an end. Read up on Lincoln – and discover his attitudes toward blacks.

          Note carefully: I am not defending slavery. I am making a point about double standards and politicization of something to advance an agenda.

          The Holocaust is akin to slavery in that it triggers a reflexive guilt mechanism and can be used to stifle any debate or legitimate criticism that threatens the interests of the professional guilt-trippers.

          And that’s what annoys people – or at least, it’s what annoys me.

          • Brad Smith
            April 20, 2012 at 10:49 am

            I agree 100%. Part and parcel of this entire issue is group rights as apposed to individual rights. There should never be group rights. Group rights simply mean that some people get extra special treatment based on color, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

            If we were to abolish group rights and protect all rights, (that we are born with) to all people we would do away with a lot of the animosity we have today.

            Ps I am a “minority” as are my wife and children, although I prefer to think of us as American Mutts.

          • April 20, 2012 at 10:57 am

            Amen.

            The frustrating thing is the concept’s so simple – yet we’re up against eons (literally) of human conditioning to think (and so, act) otherwise.

            Remember when the hippies talked about raising one’s consciousness? They were on to something, even if they got misdirected….

          • Libertymike
            April 20, 2012 at 2:34 pm

            Eric, one manifestation of the double standard of which you write is the reflexive charge of “neo-confederate”made by both those with and those without all of the dots on their dominoes whenever one sets forth facts such as you do regarding Lincoln, the War of Northern Aggression, black codes and the like.

            There are some people who actually think that they are clever and have put another in intellectual check mate by the mere assertion of the word neo-confederate in response to the other’s enumeration of facts such as Lincoln’s intimate participation in, and direction of, the development and implementation of total war waged against civilians.

            Rest assured, almost any person who labels another as a neo-confederate has no idea what the word means. They certainly have no idea whether the word could be used to accurately describe the person to whom they ascribe it. Of course, over the intertubes, its even sillier given that the person calling another a neo-confederate has no idea where the latter resides or where he was raised.

            You want to try a little experiment?

            Ask random amerikans whether they knew that Adolph Hitler admired Abraham Lincoln. Observe reaction.

          • April 20, 2012 at 2:56 pm

            Mike,

            Yup! And I’ll happily accept the mantle of “neo-Confederate.” It is an honorable title.

          • Werner
            April 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm

            The uncomfortable truth is that so-called Christian nations (Germany, Britain, France, the US of A etc) perpetrated unspeakable atrocities upon each other (London, Liverpool, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden…)! Some of them allied themselves with the atheist communist bolshevik monster Stalin, who had given an open demonstration of his evil plans and capabilities when he killed 7 million Ukrainians by mass starvation – before Hitler was an opportunity by the president and the cabinet to make a grab for dictatorial power!

            The ordinary German citizen had no say in any of this, just like ordinary Americans today must leave it up to the elected officials to treat them or mistreat them! Any objections are usually to late, after the fact!

            After Hitler (never having received an outright majority in a free election) got in he banned all other parties – and so democracy was down the tubes!

          • April 20, 2012 at 7:25 pm

            Very true.

            Hitler on several occasions expressed admiration for the Catholic Church – and called Himmler his Ignatius Loyola. Stalin was a seminarian.

            Both came to regard most of humanity as little better than cattle – an attitude they had in common with today’s elites. And sadly, the truth is they’re right – at least in terms of the way most people seem to be unthinking herd animals who base their actions on their feelings and who want more than anything else to belong and to conform. Hence, the startling animosity toward independent people who think and don’t conform – in particular when it comes to such things as religion (and veneration of things like sports).

            The challenge facing humanity is figuring out how to awaken the people who can be awakened… and what the awakened can do about those who can’t be awakened.

      • AR
        April 20, 2012 at 5:02 am

        wow lots of Jew hatred on this thread. Kinda sad that every time I run into a libertarian site that talks sense, i invariably come to the part that tells me how i actually control the world. It’s really incredible, all the power I have, according to people like this ^^^

        today it’s “milking the holocaust for all it’s worth” tomorrow it’s “exaggerated it” then “it never happened” and then you try again to see if you can’t get rid of us t he next time. it’s been a few thousand years since we started documenting this, and you’ve tried a whole number of times, with varying but never complete success. but you and your ilk come and go, and we’ve been here the whole time, and it ain’t cuz God loves us: it’s cuz we’re forced together every time buttholes like you try to get rid of us. so, in a perverse way, thank you for contributing to the long-term survival of the Jewish nation. yeah we control the world: that’s why we let you post crap like this on the internet. Which we control.

        • April 20, 2012 at 9:46 am

          Hi AR,

          If you’re new here (or just now reading my stuff) let me assure you that the bedrock principle I operate from is violence toward none – except those who inititate it.(Another way of phrasing the Libertarian principle of non-aggression.)

          By way of explanation, I think there is legitimate frustration with organized elements that happen to be Jewish. Just as there is with “professional blacks” (Al Sharpton, et al). Being repelled by Sharpton does not make one a racist. Just as being disgusted with a neocon chickenhawk such as Billy Kristol does not make one a Jew hater.

          It’s extremely important to allow criticism without automatically imputing a hidden motive.

          I’m a big critic of Israel in the sense that I resent being used as a milch cow to fund the Israeli state. But I am also a big critic of all such “aid” to all countries. Does this make me anti-Jewish? Some “professional Jews” will screech yes. But it’s just an attempt to stifle legitimate criticism – and keep the money flowing. In the same way that Sharpton browbeats businesses into “contributing” to his group – on pain of boycotts or being accused of racism.

          Let’s try to move beyond this crap – and go after our common foe!

          • GW
            April 20, 2012 at 11:59 am

            RE – Let’s try to move beyond this crap – and go after our common foe!

            I Agree Eric.

            I am tired of the finger pointing regarding any “cause or group” (seems like it is becoming more prevalent of late).

            As soon as I hear any of it I automatically assume that the “accuser” has an agenda that I frankly don’t give a SH*T about nor do I want to hear it.

            ASSHOLES occupy all socio-economic-religious-political groups – all they serve to do is contribute to the problem rather than offer any effective solutions.

            Live and let live – but there does need to be a baseline of acceptable behavior or rule of law which has, unfortunately, been perverted by all the self interest groups that have their own agendas.

            IF anyone calls themselves a(hyphenated)
            Xxxxx-American then they miss the entire point of being a true “American”.

        • Brad Smith
          April 20, 2012 at 10:09 am

          Do you believe that the “Jewish nation” can exist without subjugating the Palestinians?

        • Tinsley Grey Sammons
          April 20, 2012 at 11:49 am

          “milking the Holocaust for all it’s worth”

          I’m neither a murderer nor a victim. I just call ‘em like I see ‘em. And I don’t owe anyone a damned thing just because s/he’s a fill-in-the-blank.

          I’m Scot-Irish but I don’t incessantly whine about past persecution and injustices committed by the Crown. Nobody owes me a damned thing just because William Wallace was betrayed and gruesomely murdered. Nobody owes me a damned thing just because the Crown did not interfere with the wholesale death of Irish People during the Potato Femine. Nobody owes me a damned thing because Sherman’s Army laid waste to to the infrastructure of the State where I was born, thereby causing great suffering among the ethnic Scot-Irish people living there.

          For the record, ethnicity notwithstanding, any Individual defendant seeking justice in a court of law would be damned fortunate to have me among his jurors. Not because I care for him or his race but simply because I passionately care about the concept of liberty and justice for ALL.

          Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

          • April 20, 2012 at 11:52 am

            Double barrels, Tinsley – and tight groupings, too!

          • Jean
            August 15, 2013 at 5:16 pm

            Tinsley,
            Just a note:
            “because the Crown did not interfere with the wholesale death of Irish People during the Potato Femine.”

            Actually, the crown CAUSED the famine via laws on inheritance. Just as it tried to ensure Ireland’s loyalty by settling Protestants (Welsh) there. The “Orangemen.”
            Inheritances were gerrymandered to ensure that Catholic farms got smaller and smaller. To the point of something like a 3′X3′ plot of ground would have feed the family.

            Crown didn’t cause the potatoes to die, but it damn sure ensured that IF (when) the potatoes died, those filthy Irish would die, too.

            That being said: I agree they don’t owe ME shit, but I hope they’ll understand, if tables are turned, why I don’t reach out to help them, either.

      • Bob
        April 20, 2012 at 6:02 pm

        Because Communism and Socialism are jewish inventions and they control the languge we use.

        • NamVet68
          April 21, 2012 at 1:25 pm

          Because something is invented or thought of by someone of any particular group does not make the entire group responsible for the invention, nor does it give that group control of the invention and it’s effects in perpetuity. If Jews were in control of your language, you would be speaking Hebrew now, not English. BTW, Judaism is a religion, not a race, not a nationality. There are Jews from almost every country (just like there are Christians) and you can’t tell a Chinese, or Indian, or Iranian or Morrocan or South African Jew by they was he or she looks. If Jews (as a group) controlled everything they are blamed for controlling, you would not be eating bacon for breakfast. You would also not be having to read this web site, because they would never have allowed the country to get where it is today, since the Jews have so much invested in the US dollar, and the decline of the dollar causes them monetary and power loss.

    • westcott
      April 20, 2012 at 11:09 am

      Funny that you note your aunt paying more in taxes then she paid for the home. I have been looking for a cottage and finally found one. It is bank owned. The price is very affordable. But, the taxes make it impossible to own. The payment on the cottage is 200 a month. However, taxes would be 600 a month.

      • April 20, 2012 at 11:23 am

        When we lived in Northern Va. (this is about nine years ago now) we were paying more than $4,000 a year in taxes on a 40 year-old, 1,800 sq. ft. house on a 1/4 acre lot. One of the reasons why we moved! We’re still paying, of course – but less than half what we used to – on a much larger house on 16 acres of land.

        Of course, it’s only a matter of time before that changes… before they catch up with us here, too. Next stop: Patagonia.

        • MoT
          April 20, 2012 at 4:37 pm

          Property taxes only serve to remind the peasants that they live to serve their masters.

          • Jean
            August 15, 2013 at 5:20 pm

            I’ll serve mine with a nice chianti… and some FAVA BEANS…. :-D

      • Brad Smith
        April 20, 2012 at 6:35 pm

        Doesn’t that suck? I own a small lot on a lake 50 feet by 300. The only reason I can afford it is because I haven’t built on it. I park a camper on it and that is fine. I wanted to put up a small cabin, oh hell no. Then they would totally zap me. Taxes, permits, wetland aproval etc. So instead of having a very nice looking small log cabin I have a dingy looking old camper.

  9. Blake
    April 19, 2012 at 8:24 pm

    Looks like a good time to market a device that gives false signals of “driving under posted speed, coming to complete stop at stop signs, etc.”

    Isn’t the technology already here with cell phones? Big brother can theoretically get a lock on your location at one point in time, and then when you reach a point 2 miles down the road in only 90 seconds, can prove you must have been “speeding” to get there so quickly.

    It will be great. 6 lanes of traffic all moving at exactly the same speed out of fear of automated tickets and “unsafe driver” insurance premiums.

  10. dom
    April 19, 2012 at 10:32 pm

    I can’t wait. There anyway I can get this shit installed sooner? Do they have a bend over version?

    • mithrandir
      April 20, 2012 at 12:55 pm

      In Jersey they call it BOHICA. Bend over here it comes again.

  11. Tinsley Grey Sammons
    April 19, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    The following is not a reply nor does it pertain to motor vehicles. However, I feel that it is important enough to be propagated.

    JAKARTA GLOBE
    Australian Man Faces Death Penalty on Malaysia Drug Charges
    March 12, 2012
    An Australian man has been charged with drug trafficking in Malaysia, which carries a mandatory death penalty, his lawyer said Monday, adding the accused claimed he was mistreated in custody.
    http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/international/australian-man-faces-death-penalty-on-malaysia-drug-charges/50425

    Two young and foolish Australians were hanged several years ago and I call it state sanctioned murder. It is certainly cruel and unusual punishment yet I’ve not heard a peep out of the United States or any other supposedly civilized Government. Nor have I heard anything from the American Media or any of the World’s Human Rights organizations.

    In the years that I have been assembling my own PCs I’ve used many parts made in Malaysia, so, the civilized world is not without influence.

    Please forgive the intrusion,Eric but when a man is legally murdered anywhere in the world it bothers me.

    Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

    • libertymike
      April 20, 2012 at 11:54 pm

      Tinsley, I like the cut of your jib.

  12. clark
    April 20, 2012 at 1:23 am

    This article reminds me of cars in Japan years ago which would jingle a bell every time the driver exceeded the hyway speed limit. In every car I was in, there was often this constant and annoying, on and off jingling. I guess this EDR thing is a great leap forward from that? Not the good kind of “great leap” either.

    I used to think the monster would have fallen over due to its own lopsided weight by now. Yet the cops still prowl around my town in brand new SUV’s, often in packs of two, like wolves with other pack members nearby, looking for victims while I in my old rusty car wonder why,… er what percentage of the population is sociopathic enough to justify all this, is it 70%?
    It’s probably the same percentage in most countries?

    The world is a barbaric power-hungry vampire.
    Even dogs better beware.

    • April 20, 2012 at 10:13 am

      Already, many of the new cars I have driven recently have those speed monitors. Of course, they can be turned off… for now.

      This pattern is recurrent. Introduce the thing as a novelty that’s voluntary. Then get more and more the novelty item into circulation; make it a de facto “standard” at the same time that PR groundwork is laid to argue how “safe” the item is, how much it will protect “the children” – and so on. Enter politicians and the New Cause. Make the thing mandatory.

      This is how we got the CHMSL (third eye brake light), air bags, tire pressure monitors, stability control… back up cameras… and you know what’s next.

      • MoT
        April 20, 2012 at 4:40 pm

        Yeah, you can “turn off” the jingling reminder but it doesn’t mean it isn’t still recording your imminent failure to comply.

  13. Brandonjin
    April 20, 2012 at 1:47 am

    Wow. This saddens me. Why so much damn intrusion on the auto industry? (rhetorical)
    Big brother is ruining my fukn life. I need to get an old car soon.

    • April 20, 2012 at 10:05 am

      Why? Money – and power. The same old story. Technology is just the tool.

      I feel bad for your generation, because you arrived just in time for the music to stop and no chair left open for you to sit on. My generation got to enjoy some freedom when we were your age. But the upside is, you won’t have to wait until you’re my age for real change to take place – hopefully change you really can believe in!

      • Brandonjin
        April 22, 2012 at 3:58 am

        Do you actually think any revolution or anything like it will happen? I’m doubtful. Plus, all change I’ve ever experienced in my life has been for the worse. Life gets a little bit less worth living every day, the way things are.

        • April 22, 2012 at 9:20 am

          I think change is inevitable – whether for good or bad is the question! Right now, things appear to be getting worse. On the other hand, there are also hopeful signs of an awakening such as I have never seen before. Much of it is still unfocused, of course – and it’s still confined to a relative minority. However, compared with say 1990, it is enormous. You yourself are an example. You’re about 20, right? So, no personal memory of the old America. You were a little kid when 9/11 happened. The pre-world is as unreal to you as the Kennedy era is to me. Yet you clearly are interested n freedom – and know something’s really wrong with the way things are now. That is encouraging. And there are many like you.

          In some ways, I wish I were your age again. I’m not old yet, but I am much more vested in the system than you are in that I have “stuff” – and that makes one naturally more cautious and limits what one is willing and able to do.

          • Brandonjin
            April 22, 2012 at 3:48 pm

            I have pretty positive memories of the 1990′s of what I can remember, being 19 I don’t remember much pre-9/11 as you pointed out.
            I’m interested in the freedeom of things now, I originally only joined this site because of the automobile hobby aspect of it. You and a couple of books are the main influences on my anti-government sentiment :)

            You say there are many like me, I wish I could find some. Granted, I don’t really search, because my views are unpopular and cause tension whenever discussed.
            But still, it’d be nice to have others to relate to.

          • April 22, 2012 at 4:20 pm

            A good place to find some solid, like-minded people your age is to attend a Ron Paul event in your area. There is probably some RP activity on your campus.

            And, you’ve got us, too!

          • dom
            April 22, 2012 at 4:03 pm

            @Brandonjin

            When I bring up the topics discussed here among my peers at work, or through my daily activities, I usually discover they are clovers. Good luck finding others like you! I’m an extremely outgoing person and know everyone everywhere I go, which provides me a better understanding/temperature of my limited sample of the environment/culture of the USSA. In my limited opinion all signs point to we’re fucked!

          • BrentP
            April 22, 2012 at 9:16 pm

            Remembering the 1990s is one thing… Today’s culture is horrid when you can remember this:
            http://wallstreetjackass.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c7ae753ef0167614bbfcb970b-800wi

            Every so often fark.com has an old playground thread… in the last one was photo from the 70s showing some kid jumping a bicycle through fire while other kids and adults just watched…

            To be jumping big wheels and other such things again… Nobody preached to me the salvation of the foam hat when I was kid… today I hear it from other adults. I miss the 70s and 80s….

            Dom, I’m in engineering so there is usually an undercurrent of libertarianism even in the clovers. I found that slowly introducing them to things gets their mind turning. But I am working with minds already so it’s just unlocking. When I told a guy a good deal older than me that the gulf of tokin was fake and it was admitted in the LBJ tapes the expression on his face was priceless. But in other professions… mostly unreachable.

          • Jim, California
            April 22, 2012 at 10:51 pm

            The ‘good old days’ were not universally so, but remarkably freer than most under-50s realize: eg, when I was in my teens (mid-50s), nearly every HS had a rifle club and optional gun training. You could walk into almost any hardware store and buy guns and ammo. You didn’t need to ask permission to do much of anything. Most speed laws were ‘reasonable and proper’, not prima facie as today. I could go on, but I don’t wanna start crying …

        • Boothe
          April 22, 2012 at 6:09 pm

          @Brandonjin – Life is seasonal and so is society. I’m an old electronics / instrument tech so I see practically everything as based on sine waves (and from life experience I’m pretty confident most things really are). But if you look at it seasonally or from a sinusoidal perspective we literally “have our ups and downs.” Right now we’re headed down (or we’re in late fall / early winter) as a society (including most of Europe and the Middle East from what I can tell). How long and how cold this saecular winter will be is anybody’s guess. But you can be sure that mild or wild winter’s fast approaching. The upshot is that once we get through it (just like our ancestors always have) spring will bring us a new beginning. The “awakening” as Eric so aptly put it and then we’ll go back into summer (or the next “high”). Then it’ll be back into another unraveling and finally the next crisis. This occurs on roughly an 80 to 100 year cycle (as Strauss and Howe point out, about the length of a long human life).

          I’m 52 so I may live to see the next high, but I’ll be pretty old. Depending on our age (i.e. if we don’t die prematurely) we should experience each season of life as well as each season of our society. Where we enter the cycle is what colors our perception of life. Our ancient ancestors understood these natural life cycles and used symbols such as the cross (yep, it’s pre-Christian by a long shot and…oh no!…”Pagan” no less), the swastika (Hitler just stole it and gave it a bad name), dream catchers and various other quaternal devices to identify them. We’ve gotten so caught up in modern day linear thinking that we ignore the fact that things get better, level off, then get worse and so on and so forth. So don’t let what you see going on around you now trouble your heart. Just be aware that things may get ugly for a while, study up on the most likely scenarios and prepare / position yourself accordingly.

          If you pay attention, you’ll not only be able to avoid the pitfalls and snares in this phase of life, but you may very well be able to help others as well. You may also be ready to identify and seize the opportunities the next upswing presents to you and the sky is the limit on what you can achieve in your lifetime. The main thing is keep a positive, can-do attitude and don’t let negative people drag you down. Be compassionate, generous and kind. Find your passion in life and pursue it; you’ll do just fine.

          • Brandonjin
            April 22, 2012 at 10:47 pm

            Dom, you final comment pretty much sums up my thoughts.

            BrentP, I imagine it’s like that for most generations. Missing the decade of thier childhood or teen years. As bad as things were, I can already tell I’m really going to miss 2010 and 2011.

            Boothe, I really like the seasonal idea. I kinda hope it’s true. Perhaps since I was born in fall and am growing into winter, the second half of my life can only get better. I’m working, trying, to prepare myself. Thanks for the thought-out comment. :)

          • BrentP
            April 23, 2012 at 2:41 am

            Except it wasn’t supposed to be this way… the 21st century was the wonder we would live our adult lives in. There wasn’t supposed to be a reason to look back. If we had the freedom there wouldn’t be one. There are so many reasons the 70s and 80s sucked. There shouldn’t be a significant reason to look back.

            In the 1990s I started to become disturbed at controlled childhood. I saw kids escorted on bicycle rides by their parents. It struck me as sick. Thankfully it seems to be a sickness of the upper 2/3rds of the middle class and above primarily.

            But I don’t see kids playing the way we did anywhere. It’s sad.

          • April 23, 2012 at 10:35 am

            “But I don’t see kids playing the way we did anywhere. It’s sad.”

            The wife and I were just talking about this. We never see kids “just playing,” either. It’s all very controlled and scripted. The kids (our friends’ kids) are driven to Activities. Then to another Activity. Then home. Repeat. They never just “go out and play.” They never ride their bikes over to their friends’ house.

            It is sad. These kids grow up in a suffocating world of regimented Activities, controlled and directed by others. They never learn to be independent and just go do stuff on their own, as my generation did.

          • Gail
            April 23, 2012 at 11:47 am

            Me too, Eric. And we were never bored. Well, hardly ever. We relied on our imaginations to dream up stuff to play at or explore. We could make do with just about anything. Kids know all about being in the zone or at least, they used to.

            As for overprotection, I couldn’t agree more. A dominant memory from my childhood is that my knees were perpetually A) bleeding, B) Band-aided or C) scabbed over. If that happened today the Child Protective Services Nazis would have my parents in jail and me in foster custody.

            I happen to think overprotection is less about the kids than the parents. It’s no wonder these kids grow up completely unprepared for adversity. Great for psychiatrists, bad for society.

            I don’t happen to think it’s a great idea for kids to ride in the bed of a pickup. But when I recently saw a couple-three kids in a pickup bed recently, my very first reaction (before my rescue gene kicked in) was: Right ON!

            But then, I’ve been riding around town seeking graffiti of late, too. A great big F WORD spray-painted across the facade of one of their precious restored Federalist homes would make my day.

            Maybe I’m channeling HST.

          • April 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm

            This is a big part of the reason why I am resurrecting that old two-stroke motorcycle. It doesn’t get more politically incorrect than that – unless you’re riding the thing without a helmet and one hand holding a fifth of Captain Morgan spiced rum!

          • Boothe
            April 23, 2012 at 9:15 pm

            @Gail – “I happen to think overprotection is less about the kids than the parents. It’s no wonder these kids grow up completely unprepared for adversity.”

            I’m with you on this; a lot of people would wrap their kids in bubble wrap and make them wear an N95 mask and full face helmet everywhere they go if they could swing it; for their children’s safety of course. Fortunately, I’m still seeing some kids out here in the country shooting, practicing archery, skinning their knees, riding dirt bikes and four wheelers, fishing, shooting off fireworks, etc., just like we did forty years ago. Some of them actually have to work on the farm and cut firewood. These will be the next generation of producers and survivors because they aren’t hothouse flowers.

            The problem is exactly as you put it; the suburbanites’ offspring that have grown up overprotected will not even have a clue what to do if and when the SHTF. The struggles in life build character, courage and strength. Adversity is our friend. I read somewhere that if you cut the cocoon off a butterfly to help it get free, there’s no struggle while leaving the cocoon to force fluid into the butterfly’s wings. The wings never spread, the insect can’t fly and it will die right there. Our shortsightedness in this overweening desire for the safety of our children may well turn out to be their undoing in the long run.

  14. dom
    April 20, 2012 at 1:51 am

    How is this even happening?

    Ya’ll know the next logical step would be monitoring in our homes, then the step after that would be implanted monitors.

    • April 20, 2012 at 10:03 am

      That’s coming – count on it.

      Did you know that some new appliances actually do that? They have RFID and can hook to the Internet; they can send data about your usage patterns to them – and they could turn off your oven (or restrict your electricity) if they decide you’re using too much juice.

      • Chris
        April 20, 2012 at 7:18 pm

        Two words: “smart meters”.

        Even your 30 year old tube tv will tattle on you before it limits your power consumption by maybe throttling back your home’s air conditioning, or just cutting you off entirely in order to “save the earth” or “spare the grid a brownout”. (side note: there are so many power stations in idle, aka not running near their capacity, because there is no massive demand for electrical power today and there has not been sense the depression showed itself in earnest back in 2008…and I’m posting this with my phone from work at the large German power generation company which makes these “smart meters”.)

  15. gruhn
    April 20, 2012 at 3:58 am

    Am I the only person in the world who thinks having a GPS does not necessarily mean having a radio transmitter?

    • Jim, California
      April 20, 2012 at 6:53 am

      True; a GPS unit is only a receiver. OnStar and similar devices are transceivers, separate from the GPS unit itself. In this proposed legislation, the GPS data is combined with the EDR data and sent -wherever- by the transmitter in the OnStar unit or its equivalent. If this scheme gets implemented, I wonder how long it will take Anonymous or like-minded monkey-wrench-throwers to wreak havoc by transmitting a shutdown code to every equipped vehicle on the freeway on Friday afternoon. Not that difficult to do. Alas, until such events occur, the average idiot will do nothing to protest this idiocy …

    • April 20, 2012 at 9:50 am

      Your are correct. However, many of the current (and recent) GPS systems (and all GM systems) are equipped with a transmitter as well as a receiver. This is how OnStar works. Also the similar systems used by more and more automakers.

  16. Georg Haider
    April 20, 2012 at 7:14 am

    I could actually live with all the chains and bonds you mention, because my spirit has been broken to sheep-like levels in the new modern (prison) America. But the one thing I fear more than any busybody .gov troll watching me and giving me tickets online, is that these control devices can be used to crash the car of an undesirable citizen, ala Georg Haider, and poof- tragic accident old chap, and a grumbling complainer who didn’t worship the total state dies in a blazing inferno! Careless driving eh? Cheerio!

    • April 20, 2012 at 9:38 am

      I’m willing to accept a lot, too – but I won’t accept this. If they criminalize owning/driving older vehicles such as my antique cars and bikes, then I guess I’ll become a criminal.

      • Douglas
        April 20, 2012 at 10:13 am

        A bit of old (and probably dismal) movie trivia might help. Remember the “Planet of the Apes” saga? Instalment number three (“Escape from the POTA, 1971) had a very instructive excerpt. Once the chimpanzees from the then-”future” (but was it but one possible future?) had been revealed to the world, the President’s chief scientific advisor, a German-American (it’s always the “Evil Nazi” for this type of role) discusses with the President (portrayed by the late William Windom) about the possibility of Cornelius and Zira’s unborn child mating with a contemporary “dumb” chimpanzee and begetting a competitive intelligent race. The President retorts to the possibility of forestalling that event (by aborting Zira’s pregnancy and then sterilizing the celebrity chimps) by pointing out how King Herod had tried that with Jesus (and was notably unsuccessful and likewise became very unpopular). The scientist’s response is instructive: “With all due respect, Mr. President, Herod lacked our facilities”. So there you have it. It’s not the inclination of those in power to inflict whatever tyranny or perpetuate whatever crimes that’s in question, they’ll do whatever they consider necessary. It’s a matter of whether it’s mission-effective! If say, for example, we still had the DDR, and they were cranking out Trabants with these hopped-up GPS devices, would therefore the Stasi not have to employ so many spies and devote so much effort to surveillance that in order to achieve its objectives to remain in power?
        I have no issue necessarily with auto makers installing these types of devices for the convenience of the consumer, but it’d be woefully naive to assume that the “Gubmint” wouldn’t step in and MANDATE use of same (and retirement of old “non-compliant” vehicles over time) so that “Big Santa” could know when you are sleeping, and know when you’re awake (so everyone has to be “good”, for “goodness’ sake”!!).

    • mithrandir
      April 20, 2012 at 1:03 pm

      Doctor Who has an episode that contains ATOS devices. They were supposed to be for atmospheric reasons, but they also were able to control the car when needed.

      • Jean
        August 15, 2013 at 7:01 pm

        And were used the very same way, trapping people inside and poisoning them with toxic fumes.
        Prophecy?

  17. Edward Ruffin
    April 20, 2012 at 11:32 am

    I would like to alert friends and family by forwarding this article, however, the article contains unfriendly friends and family language. I regret that I can’t use it. I am always disappointed when I see good material ruined by gutter language.

    • Libertymike
      April 20, 2012 at 4:25 pm

      The content of the message is more important than the way it is delivered.

      Which prinicple is more important to you?

      (1) Content / substance

      or

      (2) Superficiality?

    • MoT
      April 20, 2012 at 4:44 pm

      Just send them a link to LewRockwell.com unless you fear they’d follow on through to the source.

    • GW
      April 20, 2012 at 9:56 pm

      Sorry Ed but the “kinder, gentler nation” that wussy’s and clovers want is about to get a boot up the arse – best accept it and make your family and friends understand what lies down the path that this once great nation is taking. WAKE UP!

    • Tor Munkov
      April 23, 2012 at 12:53 pm

      Start using Firefox, and get the addon called Foxreplace. Put in the list of words you dislike with their replacement text. Go to menu:tools:FoxReplace and select Auto-replace on pageload.

      From now on, your version of this page will say corporate #### buddies and if you forward the article to someone, they’ll get your clean version.

  18. BAZZY
    April 20, 2012 at 11:45 am

    Great insight into future reality. Like in the old Soviet State; road block “check points” were common to “review your travels” – do that here and people will wake up screaming. Sheep scream when they go to slaughter, don’t they? I was wondering, none of your noted hyperlinks are active (former articles etc). I trust being mindful in controlling what you say is not somehow, unknowingly being editorialized. A few of us are all watching in some way, except for the sheep.”Papers please…”

    • April 20, 2012 at 11:54 am

      Hi Bazzy,

      I just checked the links in the text and they’re working for me… might be an issue with your browser.

  19. El Gordo
    April 20, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    Car companies are decent – only decent – at making cars. But they are severely backwards in the electronics department. Modern car computers – all of them – are *almost* as advanced as the “Commodore 64″.

    If the *precise performance* you desire is lacking there are many, many people who are capable of improving your experience with your car’s computer.

    Tweecer’s of the world unite!

    • Tinsley Grey Sammons
      April 20, 2012 at 3:22 pm

      Actually Gordo, the Electronic Powertrain Management Systems are superb. The population has increased so dramatically since 1968 when the first Elecronic Fuel Injection appeared in a production vehicle*, that the atmosphere would be truly foul if we still depended on carburetors. There is simply no way that a mechanically controlled device could achieve the accurate fuel metering that is standard in production vehicles today.

      Tinsley Grey Sammons

      *Volkswagen Squareback

    • Don
      April 20, 2012 at 5:17 pm

      I guess that’s correct. I work in the automotive engineering field developing software for car systems.

      Each Electronic Control Unit contains a microcontroller (small computer)and a very small amount of memory. It’s always challenging trying to write the code that fits into the limited resources the ECU has.

      I wouldn’t say they are backwards, just constrained by the available technology and given those constraints it’s kind of amazing what gets accomplished.

      Granted, a lot of it is complete bullshit and a waste of money but some EC Systems in cars are valuable.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 20, 2012 at 7:19 pm

        As far as performance and fuel economy go, I don’t know how much better it can get. As for the rest of it, in my opinion it’s merely crap that will now be capitalized on by very bad parasites.

        I’ve always been a Spartan hardass. My ’67 VW Bug cost less than $2,000 and I wish I could buy a new one today. Except for the absence of air conditioning it did everything well that I wanted or needed a car to do.

        Tinsley Grey Sammons

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 21, 2012 at 2:08 am

        WE Mectecs took a beating during the Electronic Transition years. Back then it was stand on your head-pin-by-pin testing with a DMM. There were no self-diagnostics in the beginning and it was a long time before they really got good. By the time carbs and half-assed throttle body injection were about gone, it was time for me to retire.

        In the early days of the Electronic Transition the customers weren’t too eager to pay for diagnostic time either. And a misdiagnosis and part sale could really get you in over your head financially.

        Doctors get paid for their best guess but Mechtecs don’t. Mectecs get paid for fixing things. Eating a big bad check can practically put a little guy out of business.

        Tinsley Grey Sammons

  20. Kelli
    April 20, 2012 at 3:19 pm

    The entire article rests on this one point made fairly early in the piece: “First, the EDRs could – and almost certainly will be – tied into your vehicle’s GPS. (Most new and late model cars, conveniently, already have this, too.) Then data about your driving can be transmitted – as well as recorded.”

    No justification is provided for this, except the paranoia of the writer. The article also includes severe misunderstandings of how the GPS system operates. (Hint: GPS is neither bidirectional nor does it have any provision for sending ‘commands’ to anything.)

    I would suggest that anyone taking the fearful claims of this article seriously undertake a bit of research on the subject. The author might be well-served by such research too.

    Clover

    • April 20, 2012 at 3:45 pm

      Kelli,

      Given the litany of assaults on our privacy – on our former right to be left alone – do you really think it’s unreasonable to believe that this technology will be used as described?

      The fact is it’s already being used as described.

      PS: Read up on Onstar.

      • dom
        April 21, 2012 at 12:50 am

        So I mentioned this topic to a co-worker yesterday. He thought it sounds like a good idea. Somebody shoot me!

        • ThatOneGuy
          April 21, 2012 at 12:55 am

          You’re not the one that needs shooting, Dom.

          • dom
            April 21, 2012 at 12:58 am

            The war declared on our freedom can’t be won. Freedom loses! Only options we have are the fly under the radar as much as possible and even that is becoming impossible. We will see all of our liberties stripped during my life time. I’m positive of this. Just in the 35 years I’ve been alive I’ve seen the exponential speed of this movement. Once we are completely GPS tracked (which is pretty much already are, cell phones) and our guns are gone, everything will fall into place just perfect.

          • ThatOneGuy
            April 21, 2012 at 1:06 am

            Cut more of those trees down brother! Start growing your own food and get some jars and get canning now so you can get the hard knocks out of the way before practice is over and it’s game time.

            Our numbers will be more favorable if we can go to ground as best as possible and stay out of the horror show that will be the Clovers wiping each other out. Thought about what Brent said the other day about our only hope being to show people the way of freedom, and I think the only way it can work is if they truly hit bottom and have to learn it from the ground up. We have to be well-placed to show them when that time comes.

          • April 21, 2012 at 10:27 am

            Amen –

            That and a thinning of the herd. That sounds mean – and I guess it is. I’d much prefer everyone “woke up” and began to live by civilized rules. But if not – then let them bear the consequences. Mind, I am not advocating violence toward these people (except in self-defense). I am saying I won’t feel obligated to “help” – and if they consume themselves in an orgy of violence, well, that may be the crucible this country – this world – needs to go through.

          • dom
            April 21, 2012 at 1:12 am

            I need to start practicing for sure. I can’t have chickens on my land at this point, but will find a few locations to get some on the quick when necessary. Also a couple of goats. Wife and I spent some time in the yard this evening. We’ve been working on rigging up the garden for full production, but still have a ways to go. Going to Lowes tomorrow with my box truck to get some pressure treated wood for finishing up the stair garden we are working on. I do need to get the canning stuff down though. I don’t know jack about it. One of our neighbors does and my wife has participated in a few of their sessions, so we have at least a start in that department.

          • April 21, 2012 at 10:23 am

            Mang – you can’t have chickens where you are? Is it an HOA deal? That sucks if it is! That far out and in a rural area you’re not “allowed” to have a few hens? Ridiculous!

            We couldn’t either – at the old place. But that was Sterling, crowded suburban Northern Va.

          • dom
            April 21, 2012 at 8:36 pm

            Yeah, here is what they said:

            “Your property is located within the Residential One Zoning District which does not include AGRICULTURAL PURSUITS which are the raising and keeping of bees, livestock and fowl (chickens).”

          • April 21, 2012 at 8:48 pm

            So much for “your” land, huh?

            Sucks. Especially since I gnoe the lay of that land – rural/country, etc. It’s ridiculous that you can’t have chickens.

            We have 22 – and get (right now, during peak season) 9-13 eggs every day. More than we can use. We give some to friends, who give us things like vegetables (and meat) in return.

            I am working on the new fenceline – and after that, looking into digging a pond within this fenced-off area, which will serve as a water source for the goats as well as fishpond for us.

            Thankfully, we’re still allowed do such things out here. For the moment.

          • Boothe
            April 21, 2012 at 8:58 pm

            dom, canning is good but labor and materials intensive. It’s also hot, so you may want to set up a canning kitchen on the porch our in your garage. I’m not saying don’t do it, but look into dehydration as well and compare the too processes. You can store a lot more dehydrated food in the same area than you will be able to store canning jars. Check out the Excalibur dehydrator on youtube. This series, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxVpIHre2ao&feature=BFa&list=PLD64C8BC66CA9AB52 is excellent. Dehydrated foods, properly stored (cool, dry and dark place like a basement and vacuum packed) will literally keep for years and years. Just a suggestion that y’all may want to explore.

          • That One Guy
            April 23, 2012 at 4:09 am

            Dom you inspired me with all that gardening talk; finally got the 4 x 8 foot planter box built that I’ve been talking about for a year and got all my seeds and starts squared away for that and my other beds but I ran out of daylight.

            Can’t believe you can’t have chickens, that’s insane. Here we can’t cut tree branches without permits but we can have one chicken per thousand square feet of property. Try and figure that.

            Eric-

            that may be the crucible this country – this world – needs to go through.

            Absolutely. Sometimes thinking too much in economic terms makes me feel like I lose part of my humanity, but I firmly believe that what they call “the process of creative destruction” isn’t good solely for business enterprises. It’s interesting how closely free-market economics tracks natural law.

            Regarding your fish pond, have you looked into aquaponics? Some folks are using the fish poop-laden water from their aquaculture ponds as a source of nutrients for hydroponically-grown vegetables, which they say clean the water sufficiently enough that it can be recycled back into the pond.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhAferKRXh4&feature=fvwrel

            Boothe-

            This dehydrator is just bitchin! Here I was worrying about accumulating canning supplies and getting a Big Chief smoker for the coming trout season and here’s a single solution for both problems. I’m sure this will work out cheaper than all that other stuff. Thanks for pointing this out!

          • April 23, 2012 at 10:31 am

            I haven’t looked into that, but will! The chickens provide a lot of natural compost. We haven’t done ay gardening yet, but need to get into that. I do have a dehydrator – my wife got it for me! It’s stackable, so you canm ake more (or less) as you like. I’ve used it to make beef jerky – much cheaper than store bought, much better for you (known cuts of meat, no nitrates, etc.) and much better (to me) tasting. Also dried fruit, such as apples and strawberries. It’s easy and fun!

            I’m hoping I can dig out a pretty large (1/4 to 1/2 acre) pond, deep enough to safely “house” a supply of bass and catfish and so on, plus provide water for goats. I’m still stringing fence, though – and those out there who have done this know what a job that is!

          • Boothe
            April 23, 2012 at 3:08 pm

            Eric, we had a standard convection dehydrator with stackable trays, but it took a good bit longer to work than the fan forced unit. One thing we really like about the Excalibur is the slide out trays. You don’t have to stack and un-stack and if you’re doing something that’s a bit too tall you can skip a space for more clearance between them. FYI, I’m not affiliated with the gal on YouTube I linked to or Excalibur, we’ve just had real good experience with ours. I’ve seen some other fan forced units out there with drawer style trays (even some “commercial” units made of stainless), but I think the 9 tray Excalibur, for the average home gardener it more than adequate. If you have a large family or intend to put up a lot of stuff you might even want two of them to keep up with a big garden coming in. The also offer tray liners for dehydrating really wet things like tomato paste or making fruit leathers (they’re pricey though).

            We dehydrated some meats with ours then rehydrated them about a year later for stews and soups. It works and the meat is edible; but the texture and flavor is certainly different. How long dried meat will keep (with O2 absorbers, in a cool, dark place) is debatable but I would suspect several years. There are some things (like white potatoes) that are simply too much of a PITA to bother with. Besides which, they are available commercially in bulk for long term storage at a fairly reasonable price. Since I know you like to flip off the PTB every chance you get (such as rebuilding those old oil burning crotch rockets), this seems to me to be one more way to tell DHS, FEMA and the rest of the nanny state to take a flying leap, we don’t need ya’.

          • April 23, 2012 at 3:49 pm

            Hey Boothe,

            Yeah, I’ve seen the tray types such as you have and they’re probably better than the stackable type. My main gripe is the clean-up. I usually soak my trays overnight to get the goop loose. Then it’s not too bad.

            With meat, if you use a decent quantity of salt, then vacuum seal, I think you’re good for years. I try to rotate all my stuff so that few things are actually older than about six months, so this is not much of an issue for me. I try to buy the same food for “everyday” that I do for storage – for example, rice and pasta; oatmeal – etc. So far, this system has worked pretty well.

          • Jean
            August 15, 2013 at 8:39 pm

            (Meant as a reply to eric @ April 21, 2012 at 10:27 am )

            This is an excerpt from an article at Return of Kings. I’m a little dramatic in my comments; I should instead follow the advice here:

            Compare with the man made whole, the master. He does not look to others for validation, when he believes he has settled on the truth. After all, what does it matter what others say, if the truth is on your side? It doesn’t. Most men of this cast look indifferent even – he may consider it beneath him to herd sheep into believing the truth. He can come off as elitist and esoteric. He lives not by lies and that is enough for him. He keeps a few men as close friends, whom he trusts to think freely and reasonably. Otherwise, he knows most people are beyond reason, so he considers it fruitless to try and change them.

            When he does encounter credible arguments, he applauds the author for teaching him something. Insofar as credit is due, the identity of the author doesn’t matter – only the strength of the author’s wisdom matters.

            From: http://www.returnofkings.com/13823/the-master-and-the-slave

            I should STFU and let the sheep bleat to death, but – they keep dragging me down with them, so I get annoyed.

        • April 21, 2012 at 10:34 am

          Probably they’re gonna end up doing that to both of us… and a lot of others, too.

          • Rooney
            April 21, 2012 at 9:35 pm

            One of the reasons I bought where I did is that my little acre is zoned agricultural-R-1. In Colorado this means I can raise livestock up to and including horses.

    • MoT
      April 20, 2012 at 4:55 pm

      4gb thumb drives can carry a hell of a lot of data and are dirt cheap. To integrate something as simple as that with plain text logging tied to GPS would be pathetically simple. As your cell phone presently transmits location data on a near continuous basis simple “bursts” of collected tracking data throughout the day or even on a scheduled dump at the end of the night by your automotive nanny is elementary. The technology is no different than a common kitchen knife today. Except would you rather Jack the Ripper or Julia Child wield it?

    • Don
      April 20, 2012 at 5:22 pm

      “I would suggest that anyone taking the fearful claims of this article seriously undertake a bit of research on the subject.”

      Oh we have Kelli. Let me sum it up for you in one sentence: the gov’t always lies.

      You might be well-served by some research into that.

      Naivete is cute in children, and pretty young ladies drinking champagne, but dangerous in adults.

      • GW
        April 20, 2012 at 10:00 pm

        Kelli must be a clover…”Clover Kelli” has a nice rhyme to it….

    • BrentP
      April 20, 2012 at 5:56 pm

      Kelli, there have been multiple attempts to implement tax-by-mile transponders which would keep track of where and when you drive so you can be billed and the monies to go to the various government entities that control the various roads.

      Every step is to get driving under greater and greater monitoring. There have been signs of lanes and roads only for people who behave the way the government wants or are privileged members of the state, but that’s the long term. What is desired now is monitoring. Logging.

      I doubt they’ll even use the data for traffic tickets at first. It will just be kept. When someone becomes a political problem the data base can then be used to smear the person. Doesn’t matter who or what. There will be a way to spin a person’s travels negatively. Then there will be more innocent people in prison just because of coincidence on various crimes. That’s where it’s going for the short term.

      The monitoring has to get in first. People need to believe it’s no big thing. Then it will be used for stuff like I mentioned…. then slowly more clamps. Taxes. Speeding tickets. restriction/permission…. it will progress. incrementally.

      EDR’s are a first step to monitoring, like toll transponders. Just a little at a time. They can’t bring it in all at once.

    • Don
      April 20, 2012 at 7:16 pm
    • DD
      April 20, 2012 at 10:04 pm

      Make way for the elitist/statist liberal scold!

      OnStar is only one reason I would never purchase from GM.

      • April 20, 2012 at 10:19 pm

        I haven’t “clovered” Kelli yet – giving her the benefit of the doubt. Let’s see how she responds.

        • Scott
          April 22, 2012 at 12:57 am

          I think Kelli’s comment surrounds not parsing the sentence “First, the EDRs could – and almost certainly will be – tied into your vehicle’s GPS. (Most new and late model cars, conveniently, already have this, too.) Then data about your driving can be transmitted – as well as recorded.” correctly.

          The comment doesn’t break this sentence into two parts; the first part says EDR’s will be tied to GPS data. The second claims the combined data can then be transmitted to some “service” like OnStar for permanent recording and storage.

          Kelli makes the point that GPS isn’t bi-directional, and it isn’t. She then goes on to assume the transmission media you proposed was GPS, though a more careful examination of what you actually wrote reveals otherwise. She does legitimately challenges your claim that EDS data will be combined and re-transmitted; this is speculative technology. She gets out of hand when she projects an assumption of ignorance on you about how GPS works.

          Is this Cloverism, or just orneryness? I could be easily convinced of the later given that it was a fairly complicated sentence.

          • April 22, 2012 at 9:51 am

            I sniff a Clover… note her comment toward the end that I am “paranoid.” Because after all, there’s no real reason to be concerned about the systematic evisceration of privacy (or even probable cause) in this country…. all for own good and what’s to worry about….

          • Boothe
            April 22, 2012 at 12:40 pm

            Let’s go down the “Kelli” list: Failure to read with comprehension, failure to parse simple statements, making assumptions about the writer’s knowledge and intent beyond what was written, ignorance (especially willful) of the subject, ad hominem attacks, etc., ad nauseam. I’m with Eric, I’d bet on Kelli being a Clover.

    • Michael Maier
      April 21, 2012 at 5:51 pm

      Eric, it’s far too cool that you put the Clover Mark on these dolts.

      Well played.

      • April 21, 2012 at 6:00 pm

        Thanks, Mike – I enjoy it, too!

  21. JTG
    April 20, 2012 at 4:57 pm

    Sure paints the “Cash for Clunkers” fiasco in a different light…

  22. liberranter
    April 20, 2012 at 8:07 pm

    I see a huge service black market in disabling these things arising should they become mandatory. I know I’ll be one of its first customers. There’s still enough talent and ingenuity left in the American people that, even if they manage to design these things as integral parts of the engine, SOMEBODY will come up with a workaround, of that you can be sure.

    F**k “the law.” I’ll be damned if I’m going to drive something that feeds me to the State.

    • BrentP
      April 20, 2012 at 10:15 pm

      America’s talent is going underground more and more because there the government is making above ground work more and more difficult. People just operate their businesses illegally.

      Hence the attacks on cash and the 1099 rules under obamacare.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 21, 2012 at 4:37 pm

        Brent, Whenever talent is forced to go underground it is a clear sign that it’s time for extreme Critical Thinking about Unlawful Legal Power.

        Can the so-called abuse of certain desirable things be legally curbed without monstrous collateral damage and legal injury to responsbile purchasers and users of those things?

        The answer to that question is clearly NO!

        Tinsley Grey Sammons

      • liberranter
        April 21, 2012 at 8:24 pm

        I guffawed for what seemed like hours when I first noticed the line item on the 1099G ordering us serfs to report “bartering income not reported elsewhere.” Now that’s what I call pathetic desperation! I wonder how much revenue the Empire has collected from this source, or how many tax serfs were stupid enough to report such income? I have to imagine that the answer is “very little/very few.”

        Regardless, whenever the Regime, any regime, seeks to regulate its currency, especially its own ever-devaluating fiat currency, the serfs and their underground economy will come up with ingenious ways to find alternate means of exchange (e.g., gold or silver coinage, or other precious commodities). The situation in the terminal years of the Amerikan Imperium will be no different.

  23. Kevin Biomech
    April 20, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    I see this as a challenge to the world’s hackers. These are computerized devices, thus they CAN be reverse engineered, modified, and spoofed.

    I’m not a good enough hacker for the challenge, but I would make a program that showed the car idle most of the time, deliberately misreport gps, and, most importantly, spoof the “shutoff” command altogether.

    There are already aftermarket computers for a number of cars that are totally programmable for the purposes of performance. The same thing could be done for this.

    Of course, it would be illegal, but who cares. That which is not madatory is forbidden anyway.

    • Tinsley Grey Sammons
      April 20, 2012 at 10:22 pm

      The Alpha Victim is the wretch who pays for all this crap and finances his own persecution; the private sector person who pays ten to fifteen times more for his private transportation than he paid forty years ago.

      Why Americans refuse to recognize statists for the plundering vermin that they are and eradicate those who cannot be reeducated is a mystery to me.

      Tinsley Grey Sammons

      • BrentP
        April 20, 2012 at 10:43 pm

        Americans from about the 1930s on have been taught to love the state. I could see the divide in my grandparents’ generation. Those who went through grade school before the depression were much more independent and distrustful of the state, those after the depression started were those who put more faith in the state. So I think that was a huge turning point in the character of people. As I stated before, FDR’s greatest evil was that he conned people into loving the government and looking to government to save/help them.

        Fast forward to today where most people believe society and civilization is something created by or made possible by the state. However, they’ve already overreached. The youngest adults are in numbers realizing they’ve been entirely ripped off. Before getting invested into the status-quo they know they’ve been ripped off.

  24. Robert
    April 20, 2012 at 11:13 pm

    Sorry Kelli, your comment sure sound clover-ish to my ears.

    The only saving grace about TPTB collecting all this data is they are approaching the point (if not already) of data overload, which I hope would paralyze them. Cheers.

    • BrentP
      April 21, 2012 at 12:08 am

      They’ll just store it. When they have a need for information on a specific person they will query that data.

      • Scott
        April 21, 2012 at 11:22 pm

        I’d reached the same unfortunate conclusion myself. This news, in conjunction with the massive privacy invasion perpetrated by the NSA’s ‘Stellar Wind’ project proves these agencies are collecting private information they can’t currently use but might be able to use someday. If this isn’t the very definition of warrantless search I can’t imagine what would be better. Obviously they can’t define what they’re looking for if they collect data that they literally can’t use. How would a Judge deal with a request to record a conversation between two people that can’t be understood by the party recording it? How could the petitioner ever justify such a search?

        It still seems to be accepted dogma that even the might NSA can’t crack the RSA cyphers, yet the NSA are storing these cyphered messages n the hope that 10 or 20 years from now they’ll be able to, and when that happens maybe they’ll be able to use the messages to discover a reason for having recorded them in the first place. What absolute rubbish!

        I’d thought for awhile about data overload but I realize now they have no intention of processing these data in real time, rather they intend to use it on demand when they’re specifically trying to dig up dirt on someone. It’s despicable, and a free population would not stand for it. We need to challenge the very existence of this system in the courts and refuse to fund it.

  25. Tatiana Covington
    April 20, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    If one could be required to buy health insurance, who knows? One might soon be required to buy a car as well. The car itself, spy-enabled! And so too, for all other spy-enabled devices! That could lead to federal seizures of all, older, non-spying devices, from cars through refrigerators.

    PK Dick would have loved it.

    • April 21, 2012 at 12:19 am

      Yup!

      And, HST blew his brains out because he knew what was coming and didn’t want to be around for it.

      • Tor Munkov
        April 21, 2012 at 10:03 pm

        HST was truly a timeless writer. R.I.P. HST 02/2005 & CCW 4/2012. Never let the chimps get you down.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccyu44rsaZo&feature=player_detailpage

      • Scott
        April 21, 2012 at 11:40 pm

        And Warren Zevon. We shouldn’t forget him.

        • Tor Munkov
          April 22, 2012 at 12:46 pm

          Enjoy every sammich WWZ, rollin in poocy: 9/2003

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5puAN1PGQw&feature=player_detailpage

          I went home with the waitress. The way I always do How was I to know. She was with the Russians, too? I was gambling in Havana. I took a little risk Send lawyers, guns and money Dad, get me out of this, yeah
          I’m the innocent bystander. Somehow I got stuck.
          Between the rock. and a hard place. And I’m down on my luck. (3x) I’m hiding in Honduras. I’m a desperate man. Send lawyers, guns and money. The shit has hit the fan.
          All right. Send lawyers, guns and money (6x)

          • DD
            April 23, 2012 at 7:13 am

            I was born down by the river
            where the dirty water flows
            and the cold wind cut thru me -
            It cut right thru my cloths

            Jeannie needs a shooter.

            Don’t get me drunk when a karaoke machine with warren zevon tunes are in range…..

          • DD
            April 23, 2012 at 7:17 am

            With all due respect to warren, “roland the headless thompson gunner” is sung after the 7th shot of tequila…for general effect.

  26. Joan
    April 21, 2012 at 5:14 am

    WHAT’S WRONG WITH YOU SHEEPLE. DON’T YOU KNOW HOW TO STAND UP TO THESE DEMORCRAT COMMUNISTS IN THE SENATE? FOR GOD’S SAKE GET OUT THERE AND PROTEST, WRITE LETTERS, EMAIL, FAX ALL YOUR REPS IN YOUR STATE.
    IF THE REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE PASS THIS THEY WILL BE VERY SORRY.
    COME ON GET UP YOUR GUTS AND STOP THIS COMMUNIST ACT OF TREASON THE U.S. AMERICAN CITIZENS.

    • April 21, 2012 at 10:05 am

      Joan,

      The Republicans are just as bad – worse, arguably. Writing letters/calling “our” representatives is almost as futile a gesture as voting.

      • SojournerMoon
        April 22, 2012 at 2:08 am

        Preach on. It’s not freedom vs. big government that the “two parties” fight over, it’s subtly different versions of big government. Freedom is never considered.

    • Tinsley Grey Sammons
      April 21, 2012 at 12:08 pm

      No, they wont. If anything they will continue being reelected and “rewarded” by lobbyists. Even those who fail to be reelected will not be bankrupted by the loss.

      Elections alone will never salvage the American Ideal expressed with incomparable eloquence in the Unanimous Declaration. An ALLIANCE FOR LAWFUL GOVERNMENT cooperating in every jurisdiction in America could do the job, but I don’t see that happening in my lifetime and it likely never will. I simply do not believe that there is sufficient, knowledge, insight and intellectual maturity among the general population to enforce the fulfilling of the unamendable and eternal Promise of the Unanimous Declaration.

      No foreign power could have done to America what Americans themselves have done and allowed to be done.

      Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 21, 2012 at 2:07 pm

        Oops! No, they won’t [be sorry].

    • Scott
      April 21, 2012 at 11:43 pm

      I’ve written several letters to my congresscritters and those other folks that roam the halls of the US Senate. I always get polite refusals, sometimes with some nonsense about me not understanding the very real threat posed by (terrorism, drugs, education, whatver). These folks work within a political machine that doesn’t depend on or even support the concept of, free elections.

      • Mike in Spotsy
        April 22, 2012 at 1:07 am

        Several years ago, after writing numerous letters to my congresscritters and getting idiotic replies, I realized the futility of the exercise. I wrote one more note to both Virginia senators and to Wittman, my “representative”…cough, cough. I explained that this was my final communication to them, because it was clear to me that congress is so thoroughly corrupt that they don’t even see it as corruption any more. They just look at it as the way things are done in DC. I noted that I don’t have nearly enough money to buy their votes, and therefore it was pointless to contact them any more.

        I didn’t receive an inane reply, or indeed any reply, to those letters. Bet I’m on a list of subversives somewhere though. lol

        • Tinsley Grey Sammons
          April 22, 2012 at 5:09 am

          Morally, every branch of American Government has rotted to the marrow, and even if every adult American bothered to vote in every election it would not salvage the American Ideal expressed with incomparable eloquence in the unamendable Unanimous Declaration.

          Speaking of eloquence, the incomparable George Carlin eloquently expressed the fundamental problem with America’s elected representatives and other public “servants” (serpents?) with only seven simple words: They don’t give a fuck about YOU!

          Thanks George, even the class dullards and numskulls among the People ought to be able to comprehend that. From there it should not be too difficult to understand that no government will ever limit itself no matter how carefully composed it’s constitution might be.

          Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

        • April 22, 2012 at 9:49 am

          I did that with Jim Webb – VA senator. I told him I’d never vote for him again and to stop sending me correspondence. To this day, years afterward, I continue to get “updates” from him, form letters addressed to me as “Eric” (not even “Mr. Peters”) as though we know one another. Fuck him. Fuck them all!

    • Richard
      April 22, 2012 at 10:12 pm

      Don’t go all political on me. The Repugnant party (remember PATRIOT Act, NSA spying on domestics) takes the lead on these.
      Then the Dummoctats, once they got the power of the Executive got drunk on it.

  27. Art McCarty
    April 21, 2012 at 3:58 pm

    Dear Friends,
    We are experiencing an accelerating rate of change toward a totalitarian dictatorship. Those who are willfully dragging us in this direction do not seem to know thier history. The existing politicos will be amoung the first to go. Remember, when the Chinese execute someone with a bullet in the brain, they bill the family for the bullet. An early sign is we must pay for the peoples “EDR”. Castro is proud of us.

    • Tinsley Grey Sammons
      April 21, 2012 at 5:38 pm

      Regardless how big “The Writing on the Wall”, tyrants and their cohorts, operatives and lickspittles always seem to insist upon an armed revolution.

      Why is that?

      Are they that blind and stupid?

      Are they terminally oblivious to the violent lessons taught by history?

      Today there is a damning supply of recorded evidence that is greater than that available at any time in history. Deniablillty is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.

      Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

      • Rooney
        April 21, 2012 at 9:49 pm

        They are neither blind nor oblivious…they are counting on there being no snakes in the rocks…they are wrong.

        • Tinsley Grey Sammons
          April 21, 2012 at 10:26 pm

          Viva Snakes!

        • Tinsley Grey Sammons
          April 21, 2012 at 10:46 pm

          There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing a no good son-of-a-bitch get what he deserves. I still enjoy the old Westerns where that usually happens. I guess my alltime favorite is SHANE*.

          Too bad there is no modern Shane to deal with todays pussified “legal” property thieves. Plundering by law is alive and well in Amerioca.

          tgsam

          *And what better hired villain than Jack Palance.

          • Scott
            April 21, 2012 at 11:47 pm

            A more realistic example would be “Tom Horn” I think. Shane is a myth, Horn was a real person.

          • Boothe
            April 23, 2012 at 5:55 pm

            There’s also real life Claude Lafayette Dallas Jr. Now I realize that the Federal Wildlife Officer’s Association doesn’t care for him much, what with their whining about how the judge disallowed testimony from Dallas’ past and allowed the defense to call the behavior and character of the two officers Dallas shot into question. But that’s the American judicial system working exactly as it’s supposed to; the defendant should have every advantage possible to free him/her in a “real” court. But according to the FWOA the jury and judge should have considered Dallas’ previous minor infractions as well as the really *damning evidence* that he…Gasp!…read Soldier of Fortune Magazine. I’ve dealt with enough dickheads with badges and guns to have a pretty good idea of how it went down (even back in 1982). I’m pretty confident that the two seasoned CO’s that approached Claude Dallas already “knew” that he was a “poacher”, treated him accordingly and he figured the only way he was going to make it out alive was to kill both of them.

            There must have been a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors of how the CO’s acted, because the two convictions were for manslaughter, not murder one; which is typically unheard of when a mere mundane kills not just one, but two of the PTB’s dogs of war. I also realize that sometimes bad things do happen to good people, so I’m not too quick to judge. But…usually when something this bad happens to a couple of guys (federal conservation officers or not) there’s a reason for it (“you reap what you sow” comes to mind). And what’s really telling is the fact that members of the community as well as friends and family helped Dallas evade capture. If these two late tax feeders were as great as the FWOA makes them out to be, Claude Dallas would probably have been shot by the locals or at least turned over to LE post haste. It makes one wonder how many “illegal aliens”, “poachers” and “drug runners” CO’s Pogue and Elms quietly buried on remote BLM land to make sure “justice was done” because they “knew” the courts “weren’t doing their job”.

  28. Tinsley Grey Sammons
    April 22, 2012 at 12:24 am

    Horn apparently was an obvious real life scoundrel. I prefer the myth.

    Some of the worst of the present day scoundrels are those who engage in TestiLYING*. Of course most of the TestiLYING today is done in support of the Drug War which is a truly unlawful power.

    There are many in office who are aware that it is an unlawful power but only one** has the decency to expose it as such for the record. Those office holders who continue to support it are themselves criminals.

    By 1992 I realized that Drug Prohibition is actually a government sponsored crime. But then I am a very perceptive Individual and no one has ever pissed on my leg and convinced me that it was rain.

    Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

    *And the judges know it.

    **Ron Paul of course.

    • April 22, 2012 at 9:56 am

      The fact that the “war” on (some drugs) was not ended circa 1980 is proof positive of the malignant motives behind it.

      I can understand the Old Guard’s attitudes toward non-traditional “drugs” such as, say, pot – because they had no personal experience with it and thus, their (assuming best intentions) fears are understandable. But the ruling class today – especially prosecutors and cops and local pols – know perfectly well from personal experience (either their own or because they have friends who have personal experience) that non-traditional “drugs” are no more harmful, as such, than the traditional ones. That it’s arbitrary and demented and vicious for a beer/wine/hard liquor drinker (as most people are to some extent) criminalize a pot smoker.

      It is one of the most cynical and exploitative policies of the past 50 years.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 22, 2012 at 11:47 am

        I urge my fellow Citizens to acquire, keep handy, and frequently study OUR RIGHT TO DRUGS by Dr. Thomas Szasz. There is simply nothing comparable.

        I purchased my first copy nearly twenty years ago. Years ago I scanned the entire book and it is only a click away in MS Word. Hardly a day passes that I do not refer to it. The work has been an informative inspiration to me and has added considerable power to my passion for Liberty and Justice. In my opinion, no Individual who champions Freedom should be without a copy.

        Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

        • April 22, 2012 at 2:00 pm

          The drug issue is a great way to separate the Clovers from the non.

          Anyone who favors arresting/imprisoning (or even fining) someone merely because they choose to ingest or possess a given substance is ipso facto a Clover.

          Simple logic – and simple morality.

          Almost any substance or object (tool, piece of equipment, whatever) has the potential to be abused. Only the fact of its actual abuse is relevant – and even then, only of relevance (morally speaking) when it involves a provable, direct harm to others.

          Some people like to drink; some smoke pot – I like bacon and sausage. All can be “not good” for the person, if done to excess. None of these actions can be regarded as criminal, unless you’re a psychopathic control freak; that is, a Clover.

          If a person drives drunk (or stoned) and causes an accident or beats someone up – that’s another thing, of course. But even then, it’s the harm caused – not the drink (or whatever) that’s the real issue.

      • Bill Jones
        April 22, 2012 at 2:24 pm

        Please get the terminology right.
        sb “The War on Drugs not Manufactured by Campaign Contributors.

        Try to keep up with the rest of the class.

        • April 22, 2012 at 4:21 pm

          Point taken, Bill!

          Though of course it’s entirely likely certain arbitrarily illegal drugs are also manufactured by the very element that is pushing the “war.” It helps keep prices up – and competition down.

    • Richard
      April 22, 2012 at 10:14 pm

      Yes, where are the judges? I saw a cartoon after the Citizens United decision that showed the 9 most wanted sitting on the bench decked out with corporate logos on every inch of cloth as in NASCAR.

      It was funny but so true it made me cry.

  29. SojournerMoon
    April 22, 2012 at 2:20 am

    I just did some looking around on the EDR issues themselves for a response on another post by someone asking how to disable tracking (presumably OnStar and the EDR) on a 2008 H3. Thought the info could add a little to the discussion here as well.

    1) Data from the EDR, or “black box,” in vehicles has already been used in multiple court cases against the owners of the cars. It MAY be true that there were cases where it was used to exonerate the owner as well, but those have not been mentioned and their absence is conspicuous.
    2) OnStar can be disabled fairly easily by unplugging the box, if you can find where it is, or unplugging the antenna.
    3) EDR cannot be legally disabled in most cases (at least on GM and possibly Ford as well as others) as it is integrated with the Air Bag System and will disable the air bag which, in return, is illegal due to modifying safety equipment (i.e., it’s not your car, you just pay for it).
    4) The EDR is designed to keep a running log of the last few seconds of data. If it detects some sort of “event” such as rapid deceleration, it will permanently “burn” that data into storage in such a way that it cannot be electronically erased, but can be downloaded many times. Near-threshold events will cause the data to be stored for long-term but eventually erased. The number I saw quoted was 250 ignition key cycles for GM, but this is probably not universal, maybe not even within GM cars.
    5) Somewhere between 2/3 and 90% of all new cars sold since 2004 have EDRs in them, across pretty much all makes. GM has been doing it since the early 1990s, longer than anyone else.
    6) Currently, the EDR and OnStar systems are independent of each other. EDR data is not accessible to the OnStar system. These are two separate, but both concerning, technological issues.

    Privacy: If you have nothing to hide, then feel free to take a crap on a toilet in full view in the middle of Times Square.

    • April 22, 2012 at 9:38 am

      Thanks, SJ – and, here’s a True Story for everyone:

      About three years ago, I was driving a Cadillac press car for purposes of reviewing it. I was coming up one of my favorite roads, US 221 at Bent Mountain. This takes you up from the valley floor at appx. 700 feet above sea level to 3,000 feet above sea level in the course of roughly two miles of very enjoyable switchbacks. I am running at a very respectable clip, powering out of the apexes, etc. All of a sudden, a very loud female voice shatters my reverie. “This is OnStar. Do you need EMS?” It takes me a moment to realize what’s happening. My driving – speed and probably g forces registered in the corners, along with rapid altitude changes – has caused something in the car to send a call to OnStar. I told the operator that, no, I do not need EMS or anything else.

      The episode creeped me out immensely. Mind, there was no accident – the only reason (supposedly) the OnStar system is supposed to “come on” automatically, without the driver making a request for help. Rather, my fast driving alone was enough to send a tattle-tale to the OnStar system. Clearly, my driving was being monitored.

      True story. And that was three years ago. No doubt the capability of the system has improved since then.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        April 22, 2012 at 10:54 am

        GAWD! And I thought a Nissan telling me that “The door is ajar.” was bad enough back in the 1980s.

        tgsam

  30. clark
    April 22, 2012 at 3:54 am

    It seems they are setting things up for the V.I.P.E.R. checkpoints around my medium sized Midwestern town.

    In-between the lanes (from lane-to-lane) on the major divided Interstate that goes around my town they are filling it in with a 100′ flat concrete section in a number of places near the exit ramps. Perfectly sized for a shack with stop and go lights to detour traffic through, imho.
    Plus there’s a few new smaller flat asphalt sections near the concrete ones, perfect for a number of cops to park at in order to chase after…?

    They’ve never laid out anything remotely like this before for construction or anything.

    They’ve also erected hundreds (thousands?) of five feet high metal posts with a shiny orange reflector at the top of each one, just a few feet off the inside shoulder, with three strands of cable going through them – a cable fence – which alternates on opposite sides of the lanes for lengths of about 1000 yards at a time, with only occasional narrow gaps at cop turn-around spots. The result being all traffic is corralled down the lanes with very limited areas to turn around or exit except off to the right and over a farm fence and through a field.

    It’s a bit creepy.

    To top it all off, now they’re going to have to hire People to run weed-eaters around all these hundreds of posts where a single person with a mower used to breeze on by.

    Maybe “they” have an alternate explanation for all this? Idk.

    … Thought you’d find that interesting if you didn’t already know or have the same in your neck-of-the-woods.

    Also, at about the same time Chicago was having its recent parade of helicopter military might over its downtown there was a single low-flying, out of place, helicopter flying across our downtown in an unusual way.
    At the time I wondered if our town had gotten a policia helicopter, it caused a bit of a stir with the locals I noticed, it wasn’t our local hospital helicopter or one of those bigger Army helicopters.

    … Just something I noticed,… adding up.

    • April 22, 2012 at 9:24 am

      I haven’t see that – yet – down here. But we live in rural part of the state. Dom, who lives near DC, says the checkpoints are sprouting up all over.

      Everyone who supported The Chimp, rot in hell. America had a chance to turn back, by rejecting The Chimp. No, by hounding him and his psychopathic cabal out of office. Instead, we embraced The Fear – and everything else since then has followed logically.

  31. Ray
    April 22, 2012 at 11:57 am

    Eric you should write a article on the new cfc R-1234-YF to be introduced by Dupont to replace R134. To cost ten times as much as R134, and to be manufactured in China. Lots of other intresting fact about the manufacturers of this product you could expose as well. I call the replacement R-1234-YOUR-F##ked!

    • April 22, 2012 at 1:58 pm

      Consider it in the hopper, Ray – thanks!

      • Ray
        April 22, 2012 at 11:31 pm

        Looking forward to it Eric. I hope it’s on Lew Rockwell also.

        • Tinsley Grey Sammons
          April 23, 2012 at 12:26 am

          So am I. I got caught by the freon/ozone flap just prior to my retirement. Hell, I remember buying freon for less than a buck a can. Fortunately I retired before having to purchase the expensive equipment necessary to deal with the change.

          Fifty and more years ago folks would occasionally complain about “planned obsolescence” but they had no inkling of the brazen de facto crimes to come. Is anything so bad that government cannot make it worse?

          *****

          Hmm, I think I’ll dust off my old copy of Soylent Green and think about how the studiously ignored problem of population growth is going to affect Freedom for the Individual. That always restores me to my normal pissed off state.

          Tinsley GRey Sammons (1936 –)

          • Ray
            April 23, 2012 at 1:36 am

            Last night I caught the tail end of Soylent Green on TCM, great movie for its time. I still love the Omega Man, that is the classic sci-fi.

          • April 23, 2012 at 10:37 am

            Soylent Green holds up pretty well; so also Logan’s Run!

      • Ray
        April 23, 2012 at 12:15 am

        Eric I know you’re well aware of the new regs. I just wanted to try and push it to the front of the line.

    • Scott
      April 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm

      I don’t understand this at all. AFIK, the conversion to R134 had no effect on the ozone layer, the response has been statistically insignificant. Literal billions were spent on this pointless exercise. What’s the justification for doing it again?

      • April 22, 2012 at 5:41 pm

        Money.

        As I understand it, the patents on R-12 running out were a primary reason for the switch to R-134a. Bet it’s a similar deal now.

        • Ray
          April 22, 2012 at 11:55 pm

          On the money. Out with the old, in with the new at a factor of ten. SOP with the globalist.

        • Scott
          April 23, 2012 at 2:10 am

          They will starve us in the name of saving the planet, but only in name. We will starve, but they won’t save the planet.

          When I listened to these ‘droids that kept shouting I was a member of the “Industrial Complex” because I follow the science, I actually listened to them and I found out they were TOTALLY and COMPLETELY wrong, I just have to throw up my hands in despair. There’s no help coming. Our society has become feed stock for an elite that is in no way interested in our survival. These idiot “Greens” don’t seem to understand that at all. You’re cattle. Got it? Cattle.

          • Tor Munkov
            April 23, 2012 at 3:11 am

            Eric, each EPAutos article is additively combining into a giddy vortex energy coaster of angular momentum doing solid work. Really enjoyin the quantum zeitgeist ride.

            The SOP for 10,000 years was:
            A man initiates x. A woman then supports, modifies, or rejects x. The initiator or another man terminates x. Maybe 98% is done by the woman, and she is of much higher aggregate value, but the 2% can not be delegated.

            The more a man tries to work within this new Federal Reserve funded fantasy where everyone votes on the 2%, the worse off a man becomes, no matter how many greenbacks you accumulate.

            Better to balkanize now and agree to disagree than to keep destroying what little remains of our individually held wealth and civilization. These power groups are annihilating us, we should take what’s mobile and head to the hills, and leave the rest for the sociopaths and sycophants.

          • April 23, 2012 at 10:32 am

            Critical mass! We’re getting there….

          • Scott
            April 23, 2012 at 5:36 am

            Popinjay or Mockingjay? Who’s to tell?

      • Scott
        April 22, 2012 at 5:43 pm

        Never mind. Google is my friend. R-1234yf is friendlier to the anxious Global Warming advocates. So we spent billions to satisfy chicken little over the Ozone Layer fraud, now DuPont would like us to spend billions more to keep the Earth cool. And of course it will happen because it’s “for the children”…

        • Boothe
          April 23, 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Quite right Scott, it’s for “the children” of the DuPont execs, the major DuPont stockholders’ “children” and of course “the children” of the DuPont owned regulatory rubber-stampers over at the EPA. Must be nice to have a daddy that can provide you with a trust fund, hun? And guess who writes those eviro-regs; why the petro-chemical industry of course. It’s just one more way to make damned sure the little guy can’t compete with the current crop of insiders.

          Poor ol’ Joe Sixpack will never realize they aren’t “saving the planet” for him and his kids. He’ll just pay extra for his air conditioning to the very same PTB that are trying to see to his extinction. Fortunately the seeds of self destruction are invarialbly planted along with the nefarious plans of the sociopaths in charge. It’s only a matter of time before we hit “critical mass” and the full blown crisis erupts. Hang on for the ride kids, it’s gonna’ git in-ter-resting.

          • Scott
            April 23, 2012 at 11:21 pm

            We have, as a current practical example,the children of Hewlett and Packard declaring the entire central coast of California their own private fishing preserve.

            It boggles the mind.

          • Scott
            April 23, 2012 at 11:49 pm

            To be fair Boothe, the State brought the behavior of the Hewlett Packard clan on itself. Back in the late 90′s I had the misfortune to owe the IRS somewhere in the vicinity of 2.6 million dollars. I can tell you from personal experience that it was not one of the happier times in my life. At one point, I joked that I might feel better about it if they just named an aircraft carrier after me.

            So, who’s to blame the H&P’s? Not I. I expect the price tag was quite a bit higher for them. The difference being that they had enough clout to wrangle a National Marine Sanctuary (private fishing preserve) out of the deal but no one ever named a flattop after me.

            This is where the State fails in its claim to preserve and protect the interests of the common man. It’s a farce.

          • Boothe
            April 24, 2012 at 3:17 pm

            Scott, I did a site service visit near Los Osos a few years back and drove up the coast of the PRC* because I’d never been there before. It was then that I understood the Algore / Pelosi “watermelon” mindset; those nasty old oil rigs “we” (the “small people” to quote BP’s dear leader) rely on for “cheap” gasoline are spoiling “their” view of the Pacific horizon line. Not too mention all our little pink houses cluttering up the countryside, the mountainside and the seaside. I’m convinced that the elitists won’t be satisfied until the majority of the “small people” are dead and buried (or recycled ala Soylent Green) and the few of us that are allowed to survive as their servants will be living in tiny concrete boxes with predetermined life spans. Don’t look for me there, BTW, ‘cuz I ain’t goin’. Dead or alive, I intend to stay in the country.

            Trouble is (for the “elite” anyway) there are a lot more “small people” than there are of them. Thanks to modern public education what a lot of the “zombie hoard”** won’t have are morals or compassion. But they will (and do) have lots of guns. Let a massive crop failure coincide with some natural disasters along with real economic collapse and a goodly portion of the Goldman Sachs / Hewlett Packard / tax-feeder crowd will end up food for the zombie hoard. If the S really HTF’s, having the Pacific coastline as their private fishing hole won’t matter much. The elitists’ that don’t make it to the bunkers and their former employees will discover that their version of the “missionary position” will be on spits roasting over zombie camp fires in the backyards of their McMansions. I doubt Warren Buffet or George Soros will make room for their secretaries in the bunkers or even mourn the loss. Mob rule tends to be pretty indiscriminant as the French revolution demonstrated all too well. If you haven’t moved out to the country yet, now would be good time to do so.

            *Peoples Republic of California
            **The masses that believe FEMA, that all you need is three days worth of food on hand and then the government will take care of you.

  32. GE
    April 23, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    According to the Bill, the owner of the vehicle is the owner of the data in this EDR. It appears that the data can only be retrieved by other parties if the owner consents or if some sort of criminal investigation is ongoing and a court authorizes retrieval. It can also be retrieved with consent for repair diagnosis and emergency assistance. Compare this EDR to your home computer. A court can issue a warrant and come seize your computer if they have cause… It sounds safe but it sure seems like another infringement on my privacy by the government.

  33. Tor Munkov
    April 23, 2012 at 6:45 pm

    naturalnews bakersacres and other major internet destinations are calling for a citizens arrest of Rodney A Stokes. This lifelong jackbooted parasite of the Michigan DNR is responsible for numerous no knock raids across Michigan farmland under pretense of a search for a type of pigs legislated to be illegal on 4-1-2012.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vZ6vp82wj0&feature=player_detailpage

  34. April 28, 2012 at 6:18 pm

    Eric, I’m with you all the way – except for one point, which I’ll get to. Even in a country that lags far behind in the actual capability to control I’ve come to resent the motor industry’s own efforts to render cars un-ownable. There is an entire programme of design according to which our perception is subtly being steered towards a surface-oriented mind-set. Today’s cars have an unaccounted thickness that I don’t like: the inside of doors, the inside of dashboards – even the way the new Vespa’s front guard panel is several parts with an inaccessible space between, rather than a shell element unabashedly the thickness of the sheetmetal.

    It speaks of the idea that much of the product – which is ostensibly my property – is none of my business. It is as if I own only the surface. But it confirms another idea that I have long held to be true: that government and industry are in this together. In fact the understanding of the State as excluding the powerful corporations is to my mind misleading. And it is my belief that as an effective organ of the State the established motor-industry oligopoly has been the originator of most of the supposedly responsible environment-and-safety rigmarole that is now in force, for reasons that become clear under the most cursory analysis.

    I say this not only as a car nut and an anarchist/left-libertarian but as an environmentalist as well. The environmental movement we see today has in key respects been subtly led into positions contrary – and contradictory – to its original ideology. So I’m inclined to cut the hippies some slack: they just need to be reminded about “doing your own thing” from time to time.

    I do take issue with your apparent defense of the dormitory suburb and the artificial maintenance of dependence on motor vehicles in populations of which the majority lack both the skill and the inclination to take pleasure in driving well. There is nothing natural or spontaneous in this: it is a creature of the State and to my mind perfectly contiguous with all the safety-and-environment stuff. The perception that the suburban pattern is somehow a time-honoured popular growth is something that has been carefully nurtured by nefareous agencies.

    How, after all, is a regulatory edifice designed to determine what I may do to my car different from one that prevents me from making economic use of my property on which I live; from building on most of it, especially the bit most useful for attracting neighbours walking by for purposes of trade? Pedestrian-based urban environments do develop spontaneously in the absence of regulation: modern third-world shantytowns resemble the development patterns of medieval European cities much more than the mid-American picket-fence fantasy so often held forth as normal, broadly representative, “the way it’s always been”.

    The reasons for breeding suburbs out of ’20s urban theory after WWII aren’t really mysterious. Keeping a rapidly saturating market for cars artificially unsaturated is an obvious one. So is devising a pattern of dwelling better suited to increasing centralization of employment, but consider the political effects of separating homes and workplaces. The greatest scope for effective democracy lies at the lowest devolution, the quarter or neighbourhood. Imagine the benefit to some if the entire economic component of the neighbourhood could be taken out of the neighbourhood and located in a context where other, powerful and contrary, interests are justifiably expected to be heard? A condition is established where downtown rules the suburbs by economic means. The concentrated corporate power represented by downtown can achieve this only as long as the suburbs remain economically sterile.

    Without laws to maintain this neighbourhoods would spontaneously develop a component of trade and manufacturing integral with its residential function, and the physical shape necessary to make it work. That kills vehicle dependence right there. That takes all the clovers off the road in one fell swoop. That also collapses the threshold production volume that allows the motor industry to operate as it does, as an organ of the State – we’d have to get our cars by you, me, and the other guy being clever. And most of all it collapses the environmental pretext for controlling cars.

    • methylamine
      April 28, 2012 at 7:02 pm

      Very interesting hypothesis!

      This fits in with Thailand’s (non-communist) self-sufficiency efforts. They’re encouraged to have localized manufacturing, agriculture, etc. in much the way you describe a non-suburbanized motif.

      I’m all for it–as long as it arises spontaneously by free exchange, not as part of something hideous like Agenda 21 a.k.a. “Gulags for All!”

    • April 28, 2012 at 7:09 pm

      Hi Ned,

      A very thoughtful post – thank you for taking the time to reply at such length (and in such depth)!

      On suburbs: I’m not a fan, either. I don’t object to it if people wish to live in a contrived “community” of look-alike McHomes on 1/4 to 1/2 acre lots – it’s just not for me.

      Full disclosure: We used to live in such a place. It was better (as we saw it) than living in a condo or apartment, because at least we did own a little bit of land, I had my own private garage and driveway, etc. But, still – there was an HOA and annoying neighbors all around us, literally yards away in any direction.

      Well, as soon as we were able, we left. Now we live on a 16 acre spread way out in the country. We raise chickens (and soon, goats plus a couple of donkeys for guard duty) and I can run drunk and naked through the woods – my woods – holding a gun, if I want to.

      We have our own water, and are in the process of becoming as self-supporting as feasible. It’s a pretty good deal. Plus, I have all the space I could ever use for old cars and bikes, too!

      • Jim, California
        April 28, 2012 at 8:23 pm

        “… plus a couple of donkeys for guard duty”

        Try a couple of guard geese. They can scare the living crap out of an intruder without generating much liability.

        • April 28, 2012 at 8:43 pm

          I know -!

          The donkeys are to protect the goats – they’re very good at keeping coyotes away.

          But a mean old Goose is excellent for guard duty around the house!

  35. April 28, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    Meth: The Thai king’s ideas are very close to Gandhi’s principle of Swadeshi and the economic theory of Distributism (http://distributistvoice.blogspot.com/) developed in the early years of the 20th century by Roman Catholic theorists GK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. I can recommend Chesterton’s “The Outline of Sanity” (1926) – although he misjudges the subsequent development of the suburbs quite badly.

    Eric, are you familiar with the late John Seymour’s books on self-sufficiency? It’s a life that appeals, but my wife and I would both miss the vibrance of the city. If I could I’d take a bit of city with me, and that has informed a model for little cities – small enough for each citizen’s voice to carry weight, small enough to walk across in half an hour, small enough to maintain a practical connection to a “subsistence-plus” agricultural hinderland.

    It just goes to show how far the mainstream environmental movement has strayed from its traditional practical manifestation, the organic farm. These days the two are almost becoming mutually hostile.

    • methylamine
      April 29, 2012 at 3:18 am

      Thanks Ned–I’ll have to read those sources you quote, much appreciated. Sometimes a good lead from an educated poster saves me days of Googling (actually, StartPage’ing–it’s the anonymous Google).

      Small is beautiful; stateless is ideal. But from having seen first-hand how well Finland runs, despite being horribly socialist, I can only imagine how brilliant a minarchist “country” (slash city, county, state) of just a million or so could be.

      Don’t like their policies? Don’t appreciate being ignored by your “representative”? Move to the next town…or just walk on over to said representative’s house and complain personally.

      Try that move with Congress, or your “representative”.

      Speaking of which, my particular asshole “representative” just voted “aye” for CISPA

    • methylamine
      April 29, 2012 at 3:19 am

      Thanks Ned–I’ll have to read those sources you quote, much appreciated. Sometimes a good lead from an educated poster saves me days of Googling (actually, StartPage’ing–it’s the anonymous Google).

      Small is beautiful; stateless is ideal. But from having seen first-hand how well Finland runs, despite being horribly socialist, I can only imagine how brilliant a minarchist “country” (slash city, county, state) of just a million or so could be.

      Don’t like their policies? Don’t appreciate being ignored by your “representative”? Move to the next town…or just walk on over to said representative’s house and complain personally.

      Try that move with Congress, or your “representative”.

      Speaking of which, my particular asshole “representative” just voted “aye” for CISPA. God how I hate that little smug prick. He renewed PATRIOT, too.

      As Carlin said: “They don’t give a fuck about you.”

  36. g2886
    May 9, 2012 at 6:48 am

    This is an issue where the left and right can and should be working together to defeat our nanny-state overseers. And nothing terrifies the Powers That Be more than the prospect of the left and right getting together as a strong populist movement.

    Mandatory vehicle surveillance, especially with stalking in the form of location-tracking, is an unmitigated evil. If this gets going, mandatory voice and video recording in the passenger compartment are not far behind. (“Was the driver distracted by an arguement with a passenger? Was the driver looking out the side window when they got in the accident?” etc.)

    So here’s what to do about that: It’s better to fight them in court than to ask permission.

    First: go right for the “tech fix.”

    The most important part of this is to disable GPS and any form of radio transmitter on vehicles. Smart hackers should be able to find ways to make the necessary software and hardware modifications, and make them undetectable. Someone needs to start a project and recruit talent toward this goal. Ideally turn it into a small business and sell the resulting software and instructions.

    One possible approach to disabling GPS is to locate the GPS antenna and surround it as far as possible with a metallic enclosure and a small transmitter that jams the signal. Thus there is no modification to the vehicle software or anything else that can “void the warranty.”

    A variation on this theme, if you can’t find the antenna, is to produce a more powerful GPS jammer that can be plugged into the 12-volt outlet and jam any GPS signal into or out of the vehicle. Ideal case is to also jam cellphone signals since cellphones are also “consumer-friendly” surveillance, and real men don’t blab on the phone while driving anyway. There are already broad-spectrum jammers that can be purchased from various online sources: these are “not legal in the US,” but that can be fought.

    Second, the legal battle:

    I worked on “crypto for the masses” a decade before PGP. The legal arguement we intended to use was that your freedom of speech depends upon you being able to exercise control over the issue of who is a party to your speech. Conversely, being unable to exercise that control produces a chilling effect on speech. Cryptography is a key method by which you ensure that you are only speaking to the parties you choose. A similar rationale applies to surveillance systems on vehicles, particularly location tracking.

    That is, freedom of association depends absolutely on the ability to exercise control over the issue of who is a party to knowing with whom you associate. Location surveillance produces a chilling effect on association, by informing third parties of your every move and thus your associations. Would you go to that Tea Party or Occupy meeting if you knew that Big Brother was watching?

    About jamming:

    Jamming devices are arguably illegal under FCC rules. Now here I’m stepping into wild speculation territory, and I am not a lawyer, but I believe that the case can be made that you have an unlimited right to the use of electromagnetic spectrum within the confines of your own property, provided that doing so does not interfere with others’ use on their property.

    This principle is already recognized implicitly by FCC rules allowing low-power AM and FM radio transmitters such as wireless microphones that operate on the commercial broadcast bands but have a limited range of about 50 feet. Since your wireless mic does not prevent your neighbor from receiving commercial broadcast stations, there is no issue.

    The key to applying this, is to make sure your jamming device’s signal cannot be detected at a distance of more than a foot or so outside of your vehicle. This can be achieved by careful selection and placement of the jammer, by not using its external antenna, etc. Ideally you’ll use some method of ascertaining when you have successfully jammed everything inside the car but not outside: for example by putting a cellphone in various locations inside and outside and attempting to call it. Successful jamming will make it appear as if “out of range.”

    There’s another potentially interesting arguement that could be used for jammers: that they are for “enforcing safe driving” by preventing any use of cellphones while the vehicle is on the road. A commercial fleet owner could try that one and seek to get a court decision that flies totally under the surveillance bureaucracy’s radar.

    OK, this comment is getting too long as it is, but y’all can use it as a starting point.

    BTW, I’m a ferociously left-wing Democrat with a green streak eight miles wide. However I have no problem with muscle cars, sports cars, or trucks (real ones, not the cushy overstuffed toys marketed as “sports” “utility” vehicles, that are neither sporty nor utilitarian). The ecological and energy-security impact of these is minimal because they are a small part of the overall automotive market.

    A free society can make room for automotive enthusiasts who like to drive something other than what “everyone else” is driving. A free society does not keep its members under 24/7 360-degree surveillance. Free individuals have every right to privacy, including the right to block surveillance.

    And when we all stand together: left and right, Tea Party and Occupy, what we have is strength in numbers that cannot be stopped!

    • May 9, 2012 at 10:04 am

      If you’re a lefty car nut with a green streak I think my blog (http://www.artisanalcars.blog.com/) might resonate with you!

    • May 9, 2012 at 10:20 am

      Hi GS,

      Thanks for your post – which contains several excellent suggestions for dealing with the in-car black boxes. You mention that you are a ferociously left-wing Democrat, yet have no problem with muscle cars and resent the egregious assaults on our right to be left alone and in peace. But if you are a ferociously left-wing Democrat, it means you believe it’s ok to use force against your fellow man – to threaten him with violence – if a majority votes to do so, or its anointed agents (politicians, lawmakers, bureaucrats) decide to do so. For you, the individual has no rights that may not be taken away or limited if the majority votes to do so – or if “society” and “the public good” (as defined by the majority or its agents) demands it.

      You can’t have just a little authoritarianism (collectivism). A little always, necessarily, grows into a lot – because precedent inevitably becomes practice.

      Ask yourself: When you support “helping” others (or whatever the reason for some new law is) would you be willing to personally shove a gun under the chin of your next-door neighbor and threaten to put him in a cage, or even to kill him, if he declined to cooperate?

      That is the Occam’s Razor of human rights as applied to political philosophy. You either believe in human rights – and human liberty – or you believe in authoritarianism (left-style or right-style, ultimately, it’s the same thing).

      I hope you’ll think about it.

    • Jim, California
      May 9, 2012 at 12:20 pm

      Rather than a simple GPS jammer, it would be more fun to build a GPS spoofer. The data format is well known, and it would be fairly simple to provide the GPS receiver with bogus data such that first you’re in Oregon, then 5 minutes later in Afghanistan, then Cleveland … Let ‘em try to figure that one out.
      Also simple to spoof the speed data etc, but not so easy to keep the engine running under those conditions; it’d probably revert to limp-in mode. >sigh<

      • May 9, 2012 at 12:40 pm

        Unless the spoofer generates a complete fake automotive identity, and electronic pseudocar, while the real control system is a much-simplified stand-alone system, well-hidden. (Harder to pull off would be a car that has NO ELECTRONICS AT ALL except the spoofer! It’d be hard to hide a carb and distributor, but it might be possible to be creative with a turbodiesel.)

    • methylamine
      May 9, 2012 at 2:21 pm

      Excellent ideas.

      And I applaud the convergence of left-right interests.

      In fact, I invite you to examine the logical underpinnings of the fake left-right paradigm; there are none.

      “Left” and “Right” don’t actually exist. The REAL battle is between Collectivism and Individualism–do you value the individual, or the collective?

      For if you value the latter, the former must suffer; and eventually, ALL members of the former, ironically, must suffer for the hypothetical collective.

      Strange, isn’t it? In totalitarian systems, the collective must suffer…for the common good…and you end up with systems like Soviet Russia, communist East Germany, and North Korea. Pitiful hell-holes saturated in suffering.

      Value the individual, however, and freedom, prosperity, charity, and environmental progress follow.

      If you have a green streak, you must revile collectivism. Look at the environmental history of collectivist regimes; they inevitably sacrifice the environment for expediency, as their creaking economic systems simply can’t tolerate the extra cost of protecting the environment.

      More importantly, collectivism destroys private property rights; and without those, there is no true incentive to protect the environment. A classic case of the “tragedy of the commons”. Look what the Soviets did to the Black Sea; it’s a toxic sludge of hexavalent chromium and god-knows-what heavy metals. Look at what China does to their environment; open slag pits, pools of rare-earth-element processing tailings that make Exxon Valdez look like an Earth First party.

      Conversely, if I own a property, I protect it. If BP craps on my property, I sue them for damages and cleanup.

      In a collectivist system–which we essentially have now–BP buys off the “regulators”, and they turn a blind eye. BP craps on “my” property–which really isn’t mine since government has ceased to protect my rights–and I have nothing so say…because BP was operating “within the regulations”.

      • May 9, 2012 at 6:00 pm

        The emerging dichotomy I see is between the local/small-scale/organic on one side and the authoritarian/centralized on the other. The operative theatre is, of course, the environmental. I first proposed a schism of ecological responses about ten years ago, when I noticed that attitudes to various issues in the environmental movement were not consistent with one another. I’m beginning to see people come to the realization that one can have localized, small-scale economies or one can have centralized regulation, but one cannot have both.

        I too am suspicious of collectives. The thread of collectivism in Marxism stems largely from Marx’s Hegelian stance, and his consequent (to my mind perverse) refusal to distinguish between the general and the particular. The medievals would have called Marx a radical realist, for whom collectives like a social class are real. I incline more to the view moderate nominalists or conceptualists like Abelard or Ockham, for whom collectives are useful ideas which nevertheless have no actual reality in themselves. When we speak of a class one is speaking not of a thing but only that which certain individuals (or relationships) have in common. Unlike a hard-line nominalist would I do recognize that that commonality can have secondary consequences that are quite real enough.

        It is useful today to adopt a hard-line nominalist stance, though, with respect to concepts like “mankind”. There is a lot of very bad thinking going on these days about human development and civilization and ecology, much of which is readily seen through as soon as one looks at the world as if there were no Life but only lives.

        I tend to avoid the term “individualist”, though, as it has been hijacked by those historical movements that have tended to favour the interests of a few individuals and not those of a great many. A term that presents itself as a useful alternative is “personalist”, first proposed in a religious context by Emmanuel Mounier (1905-50). My own personalism conceives humanity as consisting of individuals-in-relationship, and considers the basis of sociality to be relationships between individuals.

        I am reminded of something Desmond Tutu is fond of saying, “A person is a person through other people.” On the face of it it appears to affirm a collectivity, but it doesn’t, really. One can invert it: that which a person is through other people is a person.

        In fact radical individualisms like Randian Objectivism are as inimical to individuality as radical collectivisms are relationality: the former proposes individuality in a vacuum, which is pointless; the latter proposes subsuming the individual in a unity which precludes anything to relate to anything else. Individuality affirms both individuality and the “collective”, which can only ever be real as the Other Individual, unspecified.

        • methylamine
          May 9, 2012 at 7:21 pm

          Ah, I wish I had time to formulate a long thoughtful response!

          But I think you and I agree 90%. I’m an individualist in the sense that one must never value the collective over the individual, because it serves neither and ends in totalitarian nightmares.

          But I too reject Rand’s absolute individualism (which is distinct from individualist). She had some great ideas, her revulsion for collectivism, statism, coercion, are all well-founded…but she, personally, was a fairly wretched soul and Objectivism is not consistent with human nature.

          Our nature is to congregate in small tribes and have tremendous loyalty within them. That loyalty is strongest with family, where it should be, and I see no problem with self-sacrifice for family, or for tribe…as long as it’s voluntary.

          The key I think to both our philosophies is that we DON’T support forced sacrifice for a collective.

          THAT is where real evil comes to play!

          • May 10, 2012 at 6:19 am

            I think we’re very much on the same page: pleased to make your acquaintance.

            I see now that there are a few glaring typos in the last paragraph of my previous post. I trust that you got the gist of it, though.

  37. dom
    December 7, 2012 at 11:52 pm

    More good times ahead folks!

    Black boxes in cars raise privacy concerns

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