10 Minutes

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When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away. Ten minutes away, in the case of a home-invasion murder/rape that almost took place last week in Loganville, GA – and which would have taken place if Melinda Herman had depended on the state’s costumed goons for her safety.seconds lead (See here.)

Instead, she depended on a handgun. The tool Dear Leader and his amen corner – Michael Bloomberg, Diane Feinstein, Piers Morgan, et al – would very much like to take out of everyone’s hands.

Except their hands, of course.

Herman was at home with her two young kids when a strange man came to the door and began repeatedly ringing the doorbell. He then went to his vehicle, returned, and broke into the house through a crawl space. Herman retreated to a bathroom with her children and by this time was on the phone with her husband, who called the 911 dispatcher – who proved as useful as a bailing bucket on Titanic.

Herman’s gun was much more helpful.slater

As the creep closed in, bent on who-knows-what, Herman used her equalizer – the gun – to thwart the attack. She shot 32-year-old Paul Slater several times. He survived – unfortunately – and was later found by police. As usual, they performed their role – as crime scene historians. They did absolutely nothing to prevent the almost-rape/murder of Herman and her children.

Because – when seconds count, a costumed enforcer is only minutes away. Often, several minutes away. Sometimes, they never come at all. Ask the Korean shopkeepers during the 1990s-era LA Melee about that. (Instructive video here.)

This fact, of course, is why you probably haven’t heard about the Herman incident – and so many other incidents just like it. Because it goes against the narrative that “we” (that’s us Mere Mundanes) don’t “need” guns. The tens of thousands of incidents of defensive uses of guns that occur each year slip down the memory hole. Meanwhile, the handful of incidents of mass murder in gun-free zones such as Sandy Hook go on feedback loop – played and replayed over and over and over.

Interestingly, the logic of Obama, et al – “if it saves even one life” – never applies consistently. Because there are many more lives saved each year as a result of the defensive use of a firearm than there are murders committed by evil sons-of-bitches using a gun offensively. The fact is that costumed enforcers cannot be everywhere. But everyone can possess the means to defend themselves. Ask yourself: What sort of creature would deny any human being that most basic of natural rights?seconds one

Had Herman not been armed, she would very likely have become another crime statistic. We cannot know for certain what Slater’s intentions were. But we can absolutely know that Herman and her small children would have been at the mercy of a violent criminal for at least ten minutes – the time it took for the Krispy Kreme Crew to make it to the scene.

Ten minutes.

Imagine being a woman, with two small kids, facing a strange man bent on who-knows-what. Helpless, in your own home – unable to protect yourself or your children – dependent upon the efficiency of government workers, whom the courts have ruled have no specific obligation to protect anyone – because Barack Obama, Diane Feinstein, Michael Bloomberg and all the rest of them have decided that your life isn’t worth defending. Not by them – because they can’t. Even if they wanted to – which they don’t. Not by you, either – because they want to make it so you can’t. Take away the equalizer – the gun – and what chance does the average woman have against the average man in a physical confrontation? Or for that matter, the average man – against the average criminal man?obama seconds

That is the mentality of Those Who Rule Us. They don’t care about our “safety” – much as they love to hit that button at every opportunity.

They care about theirs very much. And of course, about their control.

Not of guns.

Of us.

Barack, Michael and Diane love guns very much – including full automatic machine pistols and very high capacity magazines – when the guns and high-capacity magazines are their guns and high-capacity magazines. Dear Leader just arranged lifetime armed protection for himself and ex-Dear Leader Bush. (See here.) Armed praetorians who – unlike the Krispy Kreme Crew – have a very specific duty to protect their charges. To interpose their very bodies, if need be. Because the lives of Dear Leaders, current and former, matter.

To them.

The lives of Mere Mundanes such as Melinda Herman – and you and I and our families – do not.

Never forget this.

And never forgive it.

Throw it in the Woods?

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  314 comments for “10 Minutes

  1. Tor Munkov
    January 29, 2013 at 11:26 pm

    Meanwhile, 2,606 miles away in China:

    Innocent blood demands no delay for U.S. gun control – Xinhua
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/indepth/2012-12/15/c_132042820.htm

    Obama turns to police in gun control fight – Xinhua
    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/video/2013-01/29/c_132135027.htm

    Thousand Rally For Stricter Gun Control – Global Times China
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/758338.shtml

    • January 29, 2013 at 11:48 pm

      Dear Tor,

      “The Government” in all regions of China, the mainland, Taiwan, HK, Macau, has long imposed flagrant civilian disarmament, euphemistically known by the Orwellian term “gun control.”

      Yet the Chinesische Schafenmenschen passively acquiesce to it, in the very land where gunpowder and guns (albeit primitive ones) were invented!

      That has long been one of my deepest frustrations.

      Lately I’ve been thinking about beginning a movement to demand gun rights for Chinese citizens on Taiwan.

      • Tor Munkov
        January 30, 2013 at 12:14 am

        Visit Wenzhou and take a full assortment of tasers, pistols, uzis, lachrymatory agents, fentanyl gas, and reverse engineer them all and fabricate a new “People’s Weapon” for mass production and sale.

        Phasers set on kill or stun is already hieroglyphic reality(Neal Stephenson), someone need only fabricate what is already fully conceivable mentally and simply architect it into actuality, E Z P Z.

        Cramer Vs. Predator – Family Guy

        Predator’s Weapons

        Predator’s Weapons 2

        • January 30, 2013 at 12:27 am

          Dear Tor,

          I certainly have no opposition to that.

          But I was thinking in rather more modest terms. The repeal of laws prohibiting civilian gun ownership.

          “Democracy” PC on Taiwan asserts that “lao bai xin shi tou jia” or “The ordinary people are the bosses.”

          I would use that as the entry point for my intellectual rapier, and argue that if we really are the bosses, and since the hated Chinese Communist Party on the mainland imposes civilian disarmament, shouldn’t we be doing just the opposite?

  2. January 28, 2013 at 3:19 am

    Excellent piece, Eric. Now We The People go on OFFENSE! Watch the video..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=904Gid8qpKw

    • January 28, 2013 at 8:47 am

      Thanks, David!

      I’ll check out the vid….

  3. Tor Munkov
    January 26, 2013 at 10:35 am

    You might consider ending your financial support of your church, if it’s part of a major denomination. They all seem to be on board for strict gun control and complete compliance with all diktats of the United Nations.

    Diktat for 69 Million US Catholics
    http://theintelhub.com/2013/01/25/obamas-gun-control-proposals-gets-support-of-vatican/

    Diktat for 16 Million Member Southern Baptist Convention
    http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8158-sbc-leader-supports-gun-control

    Diktat for The United Methodist Church
    http://www.umc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lwL4KnN1LtH&b=4951419&content_id={B388BE35-F62F-4FA8-8C6F-FDFCA10977F8}&notoc=1

  4. Tre Deuce
    January 16, 2013 at 7:26 pm

    Current debate on gun issue… Noise with little effect, have no fear

    • methylamine
      January 16, 2013 at 7:35 pm

      I wouldn’t be so sure.

      And I damn sure wouldn’t be complacent; I’m am burning up the phone lines to my “representative” and I sound pissed.

      As little as calling those assholes helps, if hundreds of thousands of us do–and it reminds them what a precarious position they’re in–it could forestall this thing.

      The PTB are all-in. This is not another “Oh it’ll blow over” moment; they mean to complete their takeover.

      • IndividualAudienceMember
        January 16, 2013 at 8:04 pm

        “This is not another “Oh it’ll blow over” moment; they mean to complete their takeover.”

        That’s the impression I’m getting too.

        This is a T.A.R.P. moment.

        • liberranter
          January 16, 2013 at 11:37 pm

          It might succeed in some states/localities, but not in others. I pity the poor assholes who try to do a “gun round-up” around here. I sure hope they have their affairs in order, because it’ll be a “bullets first” evolution!

  5. liberranter
    January 16, 2013 at 5:33 pm

    Bevin said:

    love warplanes too. I loved that show “Wings” on the Discovery Channel. Watched every episode every time it came on.

    Having been a “back-ender” on the old EA-3B Skywarrior and later the ES-3A Viking (over four hundred “cats and traps” from carrier decks), I too was once fascinated by military aircraft from all around the world. Now, living within the training radius of a major air force base that conducts exercises with F-16s, A-10s, and now F-35s on a weekly basis, I just get really sick and tired of the noise (especially from the F-35’s: those things are DEAFENING!) and sonic booms that disturb the peace of the countryside. Either it’s a sign of growing older, or just my born-again libertarian anarcho-capitalist trying to purge the past out of me.

    As for Wings, it’s a fascinating program, but I have one very big gripe about it. Like almost all military-oriented programming on the cable documentary/history channels, it’s entirely “Amerika”-centric. I have never once seen coverage on Wings of non-U.S. combat aircraft (e.g., the French Dessault Mirages, or Russian/Soviet MiGs and Sukhois, Tupolev bombers, etc.). VERY big fail for a documentary channel, IMO, but since I understand that the purpose of these channels is to propagandize their brainless, passive audiences with “USA! USA!,” it makes perfect sense. And don’t even get me started on The Military Channel

    • BrentP
      January 16, 2013 at 5:41 pm

      “Wings” was from the original discovery channel. It was created in the 1980s. Which is why it is how it is… What you are looking for are the spin off series such as “Wings of the Red Star”.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_%28Discovery_Channel_TV_series%29

    • Don Cooper
      January 16, 2013 at 7:41 pm

      “or just my born-again libertarian anarcho-capitalist trying to purge the past out of me”

      It’s karma baby. What goes around comes around. Karma is getting you back for all that time you spent as part of the war machine.

      Take it like a man! :)))))

      • liberranter
        January 16, 2013 at 11:34 pm

        “Oh yes, Father Karma! MAY I PLEASE HAVE ANOTHER??!!”

        • January 17, 2013 at 12:05 am

          Dear Don, liberranter,

          LOL!

          • Tor Munkov
            January 22, 2013 at 6:35 am

            In principle, the more states, the less power each one has, I suppose. But I don’t see the appeal to being a pure specimen of a breed of sheeple. Or of being a registered member of a sheeple congregation of faith in good standing.

            Nations and Churches offer few minor benefits, and many major detriments.

    • MoT
      January 16, 2013 at 7:52 pm

      I have to admit I have a “thing” for Russian equipment. They don’t have to be the most advanced but they do a damn good job with what they’ve got. I admire the SU-27 Flanker, SU-25 Frogfoot, Kamov KA-50 Black Shark, etc. etc. etc. It’s with that geekish interest that I temper it all in the knowledge these are all death dealing platforms of empire and I then sober up. I gave up on Wings because it was clearly just a propaganda program much like COPS. On the off chance I want to goof off and feed that “itch” I fire up ARMA and realize that in that games/simulator that death comes only once and there are no “do-overs”.

      • January 17, 2013 at 12:14 am

        Dear MoT,

        “It’s with that geekish interest that I temper it all in the knowledge these are all death dealing platforms of empire and I then sober up.”

        Ditto.

        It’s sort of like the “public highways” issue that clover brought up.

        We want roads, just not gubmint roads. We like weapons technology, just not gubmint weapons technology devoted to violating the NAP.

        A market anarchist society would still have weapons technology, but they would be devoted to self defense and not foreign aggression.

        • Tor Munkov
          January 17, 2013 at 10:14 pm

          Cynthia Chase (D-Keene) is one of many statists who are starting to realize just how formidable an opponent they are up against.

          http://nhjournal.com/2013/01/15/opinion-is-the-free-state-project-an-existential-threat-to-new-hampshire/

          All “free staters” have to do is get the NAP encoded in the governing documents of the local and regional force monopolies and the revolution is over. Everything else happens naturally.

          Any day now, the war on commies, dictators, terror, drugs, what have you is going to be put on the backburner.

          We are rapidly becoming the greatest existential threat to them, so expect things to get much worse in the short term, they have no immunity to our ideas yet and they know it.

          They will try to grab your guns, your gold, and all other types of your property on their way out. They know they’re better off somewhere else, where the suckers are easier pickings. They know the low hanging branches are already bare here, and I don’t think they’ll find enough minions willing to climb up and get the rest for them.

          • methylamine
            January 17, 2013 at 10:27 pm

            First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

            We’re at the “fight you” stage…and oooh boy it’s going to be a doozy.

          • January 17, 2013 at 11:15 pm

            Dear Tor, meth,

            We are rapidly becoming the greatest existential threat to them, so expect things to get much worse in the short term, they have no immunity to our ideas yet and they know it.

            I believe that is an accurate assessment of the current situation.

            TPTB have been pushing and pushing and getting away with it.

            Now, suddenly, people are pushing back, They’re starting to get mad. They’re starting to dig in their heels. They’re starting to say “No more!”

            Think: Alex Jones as Howard Beale.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_qgVn-Op7Q

            Howard Beale: I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It’s a depression. Everybody’s out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel’s worth, banks are going bust, shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter. Punks are running wild in the street and there’s nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there’s no end to it.

            We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat, and we sit watching our TV’s while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

            We know things are bad – worse than bad. They’re crazy. It’s like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don’t go out anymore. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we are living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, ‘Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials and I won’t say anything. Just leave us alone.’

            Well, I’m not gonna leave you alone. I want you to get mad! I don’t want you to protest. I don’t want you to riot – I don’t want you to write to your congressman because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write. I don’t know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street.

            All I know is that first you’ve got to get mad. You’ve got to say, ‘I’m a HUMAN BEING, God damn it! My life has VALUE!’

            So I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, ‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!’

            I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell – ‘I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take this anymore!’

            Things have got to change. But first, you’ve gotta get mad!… You’ve got to say, ‘I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!’

          • methylamine
            January 18, 2013 at 12:38 am

            @Bevin–

            YES! In fact I think Alex Jones played that clip a few days ago, funny enough!

            But immediately after I watched the Piers Morgan smack-down, I thought “Man I’m not sure he did the right thing…”

            But I realized after I watched it again–NO, he did EXACTLY the right thing.

            We should be mad!

            There are people announcing they are going to enslave us, steal everything from us, and subvert every value we hold dear. OF COURSE we should be mad!

            He had the Sheriff from a county in Kentucky on today, one of the dozens who’ve announced they’ll defend their residents against a federal gun-grab.

            And that Sheriff–who BTW sounded like a deeply decent and educated fellow–said “People have that look in their eyes…”

            It immediately made me think about my boss’s boss at my current contract–that story I told a few days ago. He was signing my invoice and we got to talking about the current 2A debate…and he looked up from his desk with a clear, sharp look and said:

            “they don’t understand it’s not about hunting, it’s about defending against government

            He’s an Aggie–Texas A&M, a proud and primitive peoples yea verily. But they’re generally about as non-radical as you can imagine; they are literally made of mom and apple pie…and military.

            But he definitely had “the look”.

          • January 18, 2013 at 12:56 am

            Dear meth,

            “YES! In fact I think Alex Jones played that clip a few days ago, funny enough!”

            No kidding?

            I really didn’t know that.

            What a coincidence.

            Or as Carl Jung might say “How very synchronistic.”

          • Eightsouthman
            January 18, 2013 at 1:25 am

            meth, It’s a big thing. I’m convinced they see the writing on the wall, one reason they went for the kid who was so instrumental in killing SOPA. They finally caught on the internet is their biggest threat. I’m on a private forum of Tech(TTU) exes with one teasip and an Aggie we invited. We have the same running commentary going there. I switch tabs back and forth constantly. As eric said, Aggies are downhome but they’re smart people and OUR aggie said when the gun control stuff started up: This isn’t about gun control or safety, it’s about shutting down the patriots who are willing to die to get our country back and these people will do anything to stop that. Too bad he’s right and that so many don’t realize they’re only cutting their own throats by supporting gun control. Hard to believe people can be so decieved and so naive. I asked myself one day if all these people are on the dole. I don’t know but I thought maybe college professors were just so far out of life’s loop they couldn’t see the forest for the trees but instantly reminded myself they were on some dole that probably gets back to the fed govt.

          • skunkbear
            January 18, 2013 at 1:50 am

            Meth said: “But immediately after I watched the Piers Morgan smack-down, I thought “Man I’m not sure he did the right thing…”

            But I realized after I watched it again–NO, he did EXACTLY the right thing.”

            Yes, Alex did exactly the right thing. We have been dying for someone to blast back at the bastards. AJ rallied the troops! Something we have been needing for a long, long time.

            And we sure as hell were not going to get it from the republicans or the conservative talking heads. That is why glenn becky boy was so upset about AJ’s performance.

            But I think what we need now is a NAP spokeswoman to rise up.

            It must be a female so as to effectively reach the soccer moms. She should look into the cameras and plead to women to not allow the elitists living in gated secured homes to leave women defenseless against home invaders and rapists. She could recite the many real life cases of women who have fought back with guns and saved themselves and their children.

            Let her proclaim, “We can no longer depend on the government to protect us and our children! It is up to us women to be strong, vigilant, and capable of defending our children! Let us get armed and trained and serious about protecting the children!”

          • BrentP
            January 18, 2013 at 2:49 am

            Eight, I often wonder, with enough saturation is there a way so the masses really know who to blame when things go to complete crap? In “The Running Man” and other sci-fi the masses wake up instantly with one event. Real life however may not work that way. If the FSA really knew what was done to them and who did it….. I’ve probably watched and read too much sci-fi ;)

          • Eightsouthman
            January 18, 2013 at 8:17 am

            BrentP, that’s a relevant question. I don’t think you have to ascertain who the very top controllers are since that probably changes as mega-corps. change officers. I’m sure there are govt. people higher, maybe people who aren’t “in” govt. but who are the movers and shakers behind the scenes. You have enough people right in front of you to lay the blame on. Just look at who voted for the Patriot Act, the different spy acts, NDAA and legislation that let the big communications company off the hook. Every person who voted for any of these bills is the enemy and needs to be purged. You can just make a sweep of the top people in Bushco and BOworld and hit 100%. Congress has a 7% approval rating right now so I think everyone has caught on to their act although a great deal of that could be people disliking one view or the other but 7%? wow, a record I’m sure. I would be fine with a clean sweep if that’s the only way to remove the 98% bad(99%?, 99.9%?). Unless we do devolve to a state of martial law, we have the perps right in front of us. Yes, they have controllers but they don’t have to go along. I find people like Colin Powell completely duplicitous. Why? He never comes right out and says he was deceived when he made the case for war with Iraq but I knew he was lying and I think he really did too. We don’t need even one person like that. And having him flip for BO is nothing to recommend him either. So yes, I think we have the repsonsible parties front and center, enough to change things with people who aren’t bought off.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 18, 2013 at 11:55 am

            BrentP, guess I had a brain fart and left out one of the most important areas of people who wish you to never know freedom and that’s the Pentagon. If ever any place needs a complete top to bottom cleaning, it’s there along with the rest of the military. The entire military needs a total restructuring. If you wonder why the Beretta 9mm was picked over any number of good guns, there’s your answer, graft and incompetence from top to bottom. Same goes for nearly anything else they have and oft times, this even comes down once again from congress, those nasty little buggers. The military may complain about having X dollars allotted to some program or another they don’t want but it’s only because they want the money spent on something else. Why does the govt. keep spending money on building tanks for instance? It’s much like the Osprey program countless billions have been wasted on and it’s still not worth a damn. Well, I won’t go on. You get the picture I’m sure. I had to stop a second to let the table quit vibrating from the B1-B, something you get sick of out here in the middle of nowhere. Not as bad as it once was after we got a huge petiton to make them cease and desist to some degree in this county. It’s what we get for being 45 miles from a major base.

          • BrentP
            January 18, 2013 at 2:30 pm

            Those who voted for X or Y are guilty of being duped and manipulated most of the time. Even those doing the manipulation in the media and elsewhere are doing what will get them ahead. Those who set up the entire process… the people who control the foundations, etc and so forth. Those are the ones responsible.

    • January 17, 2013 at 12:04 am

      Dear liberranter,

      <i?I just get really sick and tired of the noise (especially from the F-35′s: those things are DEAFENING!) and sonic booms that disturb the peace of the countryside.

      Right!

      That was what my initial criticism of “the sound of freedom” was all about.

      Noise pollution gets old fast.

      • Tor Munkov
        January 22, 2013 at 12:45 am

        Dear Bevin,

        “Now, suddenly, people are pushing back, They’re starting to get mad. They’re starting to dig in their heels. They’re starting to say “No more!””

        That sounds about right. A lot of folks have stopped buying their stories. The Agora of Ideas is in a freefall. Sell! Sell! they say: “crickets” is the only sound they hear.

        Lookee New FlibbertyGibbets Only 69 Cents: “crickets”

        Ergo: “People have ‘that look.'”

        Is It Our Time? – Winter’s Bone – Hunger Games Pt. 2

        • January 22, 2013 at 1:54 am

          Dear Tor,

          That scene is a metaphor for Amerika. It sums up why “The Government*” is determined to take guns away from the American public.

          *Definition of “The Government”

          gov·ern·ment
          [guhv-ern-muh nt, -er-muh nt]
          noun

          1. Strangers in costumes who arrogate to themselves the “authority” to rob you and order you around at gunpoint.

          What’s the solution?

          Sheeple must become people. A critical mass of the public must refuse to tolerate brute force physical coercion. They must get as mad as hell and refuse to take it any more.

          The instant they do, things will transform radically, virtually overnight.

          We saw this play out before our eyes in the early 90s in Eastern Europe.

          That was a change from more cloverism to less cloverism.

          Now we need to take the next step, from less cloverism to no cloverism. To a “zero tolerance policy” on cloverism.

          • Tor Munkov
            January 22, 2013 at 4:19 am

            I Fully Agree, Bevin. The Next Steps:

            1. Foster a healthy dose of “Brotherly Distrust.” Almost no one can be believed or counted on. Don’t wear costumes or associate with those who do. Don’t seek treats, or give them out. Don’t threaten others with tricks, or let them be done to you. Accept that much of the world is evil to some degree, and make the best of it.

            2. Become a Prepperazzi. Cousin to the Paparazzi; they’re also gonzo zealots, only its against tyranny, not being helpless when systems collapse, and never being duped by statist spin no matter how subtle. Strive to be excellent in the fields of being prepared and thinking outside of the box.

            3. Learn the appropriate Dogma. Prepare your gear, guns, & provisions.

            4. Remain An Individual. I firmly believe there is a place for most people in the days of the shit fan.
            The right to free association must again be honored. Jeffersonian Christians or White Supremacists only want to eradicate the state in order to erect a new state. I consider them my ally, but that is not my thing, I will part ways at some future point, after the situation has improved.

            I am at the ready, for whoever is going to force me to do their bidding, including those who come to power transitionally.

            The bare minimum of the sheeple into people conversion is to get those on top from using force. Chances are someone new ends up on top, who may also at some point start using force.

            5. Try to end the game of King of the Mountain. This doesn’t mean puting Ron Paul or “My Guy” on top of the mountain and then expect him to make me free by the sheer force of his character and good intentions.

            6. Be the change you want to see occur in others. This way you become an integral part of a new emerging order. This will help you whether your side wins or not.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 22, 2013 at 4:34 am

            Bevin, I just found what I consider one of the best articles ever written in my estimation and it supports what you just said. Since I was a little kid I couldn’t understand what I or others did by themselves could be considered against the law when other people weren’t even aware it was happening and never would if you didn’t tell them or were somehow “caught”. I’m not speaking of acts of aggression against anything or anyone, just plain old doing what you want or are curious about and I’m not speaking about masturbation either although that’s good grist for another mill, another time. I can remember when it was legal to do dumb things. You didn’t have to explain yourself or defend against LEO’s if you decided to see how close you could get your toes and still put a bullet between them. Hell, no telling what sort of earth-shattering discovery you might make(bullets in your toes hurt like hell), you might become the next Newton….or Kalashnikov. I grew up in a time and place where not everybody felt it was their right to correct everything someone else did just because they didn’t want to do it. Remember mumbly peg? I bet it’s illegal these days and if caught, severe penalties for all those bad boys participating. Willam Anderson has written a truly great piece, probably preaching to the choir here but still, a great piece and relevant for EVERYBODY. It’s the great evil of our society that we’d all be better off doing away with although I don’t know what positive thing LEO’s could do if it were the law of the land. Anyway, just give this a read when you can. I guarantee you won’t regret it. http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson357.html

          • January 22, 2013 at 5:54 am

            Dear Tor,

            Agree with everything you said, but one point especially resonated with me.

            The right to free association must again be honored. Jeffersonian Christians or White Supremacists only want to eradicate the state in order to erect a new state… I will part ways at some future point, after the situation has improved.

            It’s the reason that I have made distinctions in the articles I wrote for Lew Rockwell between “individualist secession,” which is good, and “collectivist secession,” which is not so good.

            The Taiwan independence movement, for example, wants to secede from China, but not for the sake of individual sovereignty and individual liberty. It wants to secede so they can set up their own petty tribalist “Taiwanese” democratic dictatorship. They would replicate all the evils of the leviathan state, under a different colored flag.

            Needless to say, I find it hard to rally much enthusiasm for that.

          • January 22, 2013 at 6:08 am

            Dear Eight,

            I agree. I really think we’re talking about a key issue here.

            True liberty requires not merely being released from whatever physical cages we might be locked into.

            It means releasing ourselves from whatever mental cages we locked ourselves into.

            In fact, the mental cages, the belief in a fiction known as “The Government,” is what created the physical cages in the first place.

            New Age psychology refers to this as “manifestation.” One “manifests” what on the outside, what one already had on the inside.

            Clovers and sheeple manifest the totalitarian state via their internal script of how the world should be and how people should live.

            Unfortunately for those of us who test differently on the MBTI tests, we are vastly outnumbered, so their “reality” has for most of human history, overwhelmed “real reality.”

          • January 22, 2013 at 1:20 pm

            “The problem is not those in power, the problem is right between your ears.” – Larken Rose

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs

          • ozymandias
            January 22, 2013 at 6:07 pm

            @ tor

            “The right to free association must again be honored. Jeffersonian Christians or White Supremacists only want to eradicate the state in order to erect a new state. I consider them my ally, but that is not my thing, I will part ways at some future point, after the situation has improved.”

            The enemy of my enemy is my friend error has been made just about continuously.

            Situational allies is lets pretend, lets live in the moment…but more than anything, its lets keep the game going forever. Status quo.

          • January 23, 2013 at 1:22 am

            Dear lberns1,

            Great video!

          • ozymandias
            January 23, 2013 at 4:50 am

            lberns1….the Rose has thorns. Excellent.

  6. Dan Black
    January 16, 2013 at 7:00 am

    You sure have a way with words, Eric! And great logic. Keep up the great work!

    • January 16, 2013 at 10:49 am

      Thank you, Dan –

      We’re all just trying to hold the line…

  7. Tor Munkov
    January 16, 2013 at 5:00 am

    Great story Eightsouthman! – The Brass Dildo.

  8. Fred
    January 15, 2013 at 7:59 pm

    Protect your gun rights, for free, compliments of Ruger. Join over 269,000 other signators right now. It only takes a minute. Ruger set it up – and it’s free.

    http://www.ruger.com/micros/advocacy/#

  9. liberranter
    January 15, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    Don Cooper said:

    I simply never open the door until I know who it is. I’ve had entire conversation through a closed door and then sent them on their way. Simple and effective.

    Me too. Despite the fact that I have a big, brightly colored sign at the entrance to my driveway that reads NO SOLICITORS, I still get the occasional moron who either can’t read or who thinks the warning doesn’t apply to them (given where I live, I’d lay money on it being the former). In almost all cases a tartly worded command to “GET LOST!” works, but on a couple of occasions I’ve still had to use the “do I need to make myself a little bit clearer?” line to creatures with obviously particularly dense skulls surrounding their empty crania. That never fails.

    Fortunately, living out in the boonies as I do, this isn’t a common occurrence.

  10. Don Cooper
    January 15, 2013 at 1:40 pm

    NY State Legislature just approved a gun control act:

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/foghorn/breaking-new-york-senate-approves-gun-ban-bill/

    You know, I don’t think people realize just how much the U.S. is mirroring history. From the inside, people see the U.S. through the lens they are given by the media. They believe that the U.S. is a “force” for good, as the Navy puts it, and that everyone else in the world ( except the brown people ) see us the same way. They do not.

    I’ve lived almost half my adult life abroad and even back before Bush invaded Iraq people in other countries that Americans believe to be our allies, like Germany, resented U.S. involvement, and their prescence in their country. Hell U.S. military aren’t even allowed in most nightclubs in Germany. It was the first time in my life I felt discrimination.

    And spending that much time looking back on the U.S. through a lense that doesn’t belong to the U.S. media, I saw the culture in this country for what it is: arrogant, obnoxious, uneducated, belligerent and a bully. I wonder how the U.S. and the rest of the world saw Germany in the years prior to WWII? I wonder how history will remember the U.S.? I guess it depends on who wins the war huh?

    Anyway, it’s the best of times, it’s the worst of times.

    • liberranter
      January 15, 2013 at 4:29 pm

      And spending that much time looking back on the U.S. through a lense that doesn’t belong to the U.S. media, I saw the culture in this country for what it is: arrogant, obnoxious, uneducated, belligerent and a bully.

      Exactly. While I admittedly haven’t been abroad in over 15 years (too long, I admit!), I can only imagine that this well-justified perception has only intensified in the last decade.

      I wonder how history will remember the U.S.?

      Probably for what it obviously is now: a backward, bankrupt, belligerent, corrupt, crumbling, destructive empire populated by ignorant xenophobes who clutch to the remnants of a mythical past that convinces them that they are “THE WORLD’S GREATEST NATION” even as they go down in flames.

      I guess it depends on who wins the war huh?

      Since there will be no victors in the next “war” and since technology has advanced to the point where TPTB no longer have a monopoly on The Truth, I have a feeling that, for once, without “victors” to rewrite history, the truth will be evident for all to see and absorb.

      • BrentP
        January 15, 2013 at 5:11 pm

        I’ve only been overseas once in my life. Before 2001. It was nice until waiting for the connecting flight back home. That’s when I started being exposed to americans again…. arg.

        Like the TV all that has to be done is turn it off for awhile and its all so clear.

    • MoT
      January 15, 2013 at 4:29 pm

      Don, when I first saw those Navy “Force for good” propaganda pieces I almost spit up on the spot. I thought to myself “You’ve got to be shitting me!”

      • Mike in Spotsy
        January 15, 2013 at 5:25 pm

        Hi Don. That Navy slogan reminds me of a quote from George S. Boutwell, founder of the Anti-Imperialist League around the year 1900: “Every ambitious would-be empire clarions it abroad that she is conquering the world to bring it peace, security and freedom, and is sacrificing her sons only for the most noble and humanitarian purposes. That is a lie, and it is an ancient lie, yet generations still rise and believe it!”

        Boutwell’s prescience is evident from this further quote, “If America ever does seek Empire, and most nations do, then planned reforms in our domestic life will be abandoned, States Rights will be abolished—in order to impose a centralized government upon us for the purpose of internal repudiation of freedom, and adventures abroad. The American Dream will then die—on battlefields all over the world—and a nation conceived in liberty will destroy liberty for Americans and impose tyranny on subject nations.”

        • Eightsouthman
          January 15, 2013 at 5:59 pm

          Mike, great quotes. It couldn’t be any plainer, the very reason you’ll never see it in any class in this country at least. Give kids an education like that and they might fall off the bandwagon.

      • Don Cooper
        January 15, 2013 at 5:49 pm

        I saw a proudly framed poster on the office wall of one of my colleagues once. It was a picture of a U.S. aircraft carrier and the slogan read: “60,000 tons of diplomacy”

        That really almost made me ill.

        • liberranter
          January 15, 2013 at 5:57 pm

          The creative vandal in me would’ve been tempted to sneak into that office after hours and “modify” that poster to read: “6,000 sailors, 60,000 IQ points.”

          • Eightsouthman
            January 16, 2013 at 1:51 am

            Creative vandal, I love it. Once, on a wintry eve we had a party(New Year’s Eve I think)and it was cold, cold with lots of snow. Later in the year we had another party and a friend and I and his mother were conversing and remembering the previous party and my friend said It was colder than …..(looking for a metaphor)… than a Brass Dildo, to which we all had a good laugh. Ok, we were drinking. Somehow the Brass Dildo took on a life of it’s own and my friend and another good friend and I soon became the Brass Dildo. In the spring we formulated a plan to jack up the locals with a newspaper ad telling of the coming of a new thing. We had a local kid in high school put ads in the local paper(small town), run by some ancient women who didn’t know him, couldn’t really see him or identify him and didn’t have a clue. So we put an ad in the paper “Look out. Here it comes. Coming soon, be on the look-out. Then another of the same ilk. It’s getting closer. Keep your eyes peeled. And finally. It’s finally here. Did you see it coming? The Brass Dildo!!
            As you can imagine printing this in the local paper was a mixed bag as only a few people knew what a dildo was. It became a big scandal and the poor old women were harassed for not knowing who took out the ads. It rocked along and the Brass Dildo, the wild and crazy guys, performed acts of civil disobedience. We did some minor things, nothing of any value and never cost anyone money or ruined anything, just jokes. And then we removed all the city limit signs to two rival towns, taking down the population signs on one town, hauling all of them to the other, taking down their signs and installing the other town and back to the first town installing all their city limit signs. It was a big hooey with all the locals miffed, both towns. It was fairly hilarious and most people felt that way, no harm done.

            Later that summer, I was working at the Highway Dept., the very entity that we’d made fun of in a way with the signs and even had changed speed signs to read 30 at the edge of town and eventually going to 70 a couple blocks before the center of town. No big deal, just a good joke. One night these two guys came to the house and knocked on the window and woke me up, had 3 out of town girls spending the summer there and horny for guys they didn’t know. What could I say but yeah, I’ll go. So we went out and were drinking and partying and passed this new billboard outside town paid for my Uncle Sam that looked like a pic of the earth from the moon(69)with big block letters saying TAKE STOCK IN AMERICAN right side of the earth and then down into the void of space BUY US SAVINGS BOND. It was too much, so we and the girls(since they were up for anything)gathered up paint of all sorts, a big ext. ladder and went a painting. We worked all night on that billboard and blacked out the part of US savings bonds leaving the Take Stock in America. We painted out the second line and replaced it, with great detail so that it took a couple days for it to sink in, SUPPORT THE BRASS DILDO. It looked like it was done professionally and that’s why nobody noticed at first. It became a big scandal, with the feds looking for the perps as well as the locals. Finally, everybody in the county figured out what a dildo was. Since none of us were talking, nobody was able to finger the perps and it continued to be a local legend that took on a life of its own. To this day, over 45 years later, if asked of a loccal from that era about it, they’d say it was a hoot and nobody ever found out who did it. I wouldn’t take a fortune for that episode. I still can’t look back on it and not think about the countless belly laughs we had, including the “girls”, great girls they were too. I don’t stay in touch with these guys but on the off occasion I might see them, I’ll always be able to say to them, How bout that brass dildo? and have them fall out. Indeed, How ’bout that Brass Dildo? Since it was the feds, I’ll probably have them here tomorrow, knocking on my door….hey….Ahh ahh I know nothing, nothing!!!

            • January 16, 2013 at 11:23 am

              HR, that’s epic!

              Great way to start the morning…!

          • methylamine
            January 16, 2013 at 4:54 am

            Great story Eightsouthman, thanks for that!

            Where were you living–sounds like you grew up in a free country.

            Must have been nice.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 16, 2013 at 1:10 pm

            Meth, that happened in west Texas. It WAS nice. Now it’s just part of Fatherland Security. I had a guy threaten me. Thugs with badges say That’s a terroristic threat. I said No, he just threatened to kill me. When all you have is a hammer…..

        • January 16, 2013 at 2:21 pm

          Dear Don,

          How about fighter jocks acting all macho and referring to jet blast as “the sound of freedom?”

          To think at one time I actually bought into it.

          Live and learn.

          • January 16, 2013 at 2:29 pm

            Morning, Bevin!

            I love airplanes – especially axial-flow afterburning turbojet powered airplanes.

            But as much as I am attracted to the sounds/sights of say a Mig25’s twin Tumanskys fully lit, it’s all tempered by the knowledge that this bird – and others like it – were created out of the misery of millions of victims.

          • January 16, 2013 at 2:59 pm

            Dear Eric,

            Good morning to you!

            I like military hardware too, But from a tech perspective. My admiration for the technical and engineering achievements does not mean I endorse the gubmints that commissioned them.

            I don’t consider this hypocritical. A market anarchist society would still have Private Defense Agencies. They would do what the police and military are supposed to do, but don’t. They would still need military hardware. Hell, the hardware would probably be even better.

            I love warplanes too. I loved that show “Wings” on the Discovery Channel. Watched every episode every time it came on.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_%28Discovery_Channel_TV_series%29

  11. anarchyst
    January 14, 2013 at 9:58 pm

    In order to restrain out-of-control government “officials” it will be necessary to restrict “sovereign immunity” to extremely limited situations. Police, prosecutors and ALL sworn “public servants” should be held personally responsible for their actions. Since “equal justice under law” is supposed to be the “law of the land”, why insulate them from the consequences of their misdeeds?
    Limiting “qualified immunity” is an idea whose time has come . . .

    • liberranter
      January 15, 2013 at 4:20 pm

      Police, prosecutors and ALL sworn “public servants” should be held personally responsible for their actions.

      Absolutely.

      Since “equal justice under law” is supposed to be the “law of the land”, why insulate them from the consequences of their misdeeds?

      I probably don’t need to say this for the benefit of the regulars on this blog, but of course the reason is that these thugs are the “enforcers” of the PTB who seek unchecked rule over us. It is thus essential that, as an enforcement arm, they be given free rein to terrorize us.

      Limiting “qualified immunity” is an idea whose time has come . . .

      It’s an idea that should have been baked into the flawed document called the U.S. Constitution on Day One of its drafting, in fat, bold ink. I can’t recall if Lysander Spooner touched on this topic, but if he did, he would probably have pointed out that the reason it wasn’t had to do with the reason I cited above for the enforcers having full immunity.

  12. Tatiana Covington
    January 14, 2013 at 9:35 pm

    I only regret that she did not kill that hideously ugly thing.

    • liberranter
      January 15, 2013 at 4:16 pm

      The only reason I can think of that she might have been hesitant is that she didn’t want to deal with the logistics of getting rid of a body. That could be tricky if you live in the ‘burbs.

  13. Steve
    January 14, 2013 at 7:06 pm

    I don’t live in the States, but where we are you can’t get into the house through a front or back door or a crawl space. The windows are barred with nice decorative steel bars–really, they’re decorative but effective. In front of all exit doors is a gate also made with steel bars and also decorative. The hinges and locks are not kick-em out hardware. Anybody trying to get in the house has a job in front of him, and gives me or anyone else plenty of time to blow him away. But then again, there are no break-ins around in these parts unless the crook is certain no one is home so he has plenty of time to use the tools necessary to get it. But that’s what good neighbors are for, or big dogs….

  14. joe
    January 14, 2013 at 6:06 pm

    12 gauge with #4 Buckshot.

    End Of Story.

    • January 15, 2013 at 2:03 pm

      Dear Joe,

      I agree. Years ago I came across an in depth analysis of #4 vs. 00 buck for tactical apps. It showed that the bigger 00 pellets meant considerably fewer pellets, because they couldn’t be packed as closely within the shell. Hence less, not more stopping power.

      Too many gun enthusiasts jump to the conclusion that the larger pellets are automatically better. It never occurs to them to weigh the total shot load.

      Here’s a similar analysis.

      #4 buckshot is what we here at [dead link] consider the minimum all purpose buckshot load for tactical applications. It balances decent penetration with a higher projectile count; increasing your first round hit probability over both #1 buck and 00 buck at medium shotgun range. If all pellets strike the intended target (likely when utilized at closer range) #4 buckshot offers several times the effective wound channel creation capabilities over both #1 and 00 buck.

      In our opinion, this load is superior to 00 buck for selection as a tactical shotgun load. While exhibiting slightly less penetration, overall penetration is still acceptable and if all pellets strike their intended target there is potential to create approximately 77% more wound tract with the additional 7 pellets.

      http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

      • methylamine
        January 16, 2013 at 4:49 am

        Bevin thanks–THAT is a useful nugget of information.

        Between that, the new rounds with five 00 buck shot and one 0.65 inch ball, the ones with two big balls tied together with cable, the wax slugs, the “Dragon’s Breath”…

        Man there’s all kinds of fun to be had with your boom-stick!

  15. dan
    January 14, 2013 at 6:05 pm

    12 g, 00 buck i/s 20 yards ( inside house)…will stop any attacker… dead in their tracks…

  16. Dave Webb
    January 14, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    Those police are right on target. They will arrive in time to pick up the pieces. If one of them shoots an intruder dead, they have all kinds of paperwork for them to fill out. Something on the order of 30 pieces of paperwork. No wonder they want to come late if ever.
    The are protecting the crook. The crook is wise enough to hire someone in the Legal Profession with Bar privileges. So should we all when the police become actively involved. Do not volunteer any information at all except your name. The rest is up to the police and the courts and your lawyer . . .
    This woman is terrified and I don’t blame her.
    Malcolm X was once a housebreaker. He commented in his books that no one can break into a house without the consent of the local police. Puts a whole new view on Police taking an extra amount of time to arrive at the scene.
    The woman needs a dog. I suggest a German Shepherd raised by her from a pup. One vocal from the dog is enough to discourage anyone from entering illegally. Remember that the dog is going to die. It is a foregone conclusion if the dog harms anyone under any circumstances. But in the meantime a well trained dog will wait for the crook to enter the premises. Then he belongs to the dog . . .
    I used this method for years! Even getting rid of a door-to-door salesman became easier. I just suggested “Princesss” wants to meet with you! The salesman(on drugs probably) was 6 foot 7 inches tall. He left my yard very swiftly. He didn’t come back.
    Since I threatened to just turn the dog out in the back yard, I have never had a break-in attempt since.
    I am competant to fire small arms. I was trained in the United State Air Force to do just that as an Air Policeman. Might seem strange, but I do not even own a working gun.
    The dispatcher had two police cruizers at my door in less than 3 minutes when I called. I explained to her they can take their time. We will handle it. Just bring a body bag and an ambulance.
    That was what got me instant action from our Police. They wanted to take the dog. I wouldn’t let them. I explained the dog can play with my children all day long and never even nip one of them. She thought the children belonged to her! Even when a strange dog came into the yard and my boy was on his little bike Princess came to the boy’s aide. There was a dog fight, the strange dog lost. My boy was in the middle of it. Neither dog let the boy even get a scratch on him. The strange dog left fast. 60 pounds of hyperactivity was on our side of the fence.
    Princess allowed them to do anything without complaint. (I suspect the kids would have put a saddle on her if we let them back then.
    I am sure from that moment on, some database somewhere marked my property
    “do not disturb.” No one every tried to break in again.
    I have never had to fire a gun against an intruder. I did allow all the neighborhood teens in my backyard once. I was demostrating my weapon of choice. All the kids called me Mr. It was a sign of respect. I put a bale of straw at the base of the hill at the bottom of the yard. I put a Sunday Paper back of the straw bale and an old dry tide box as a target. I put a small piece of 3/4 inch ply back of everything.
    I then pulled my “rifle”. It was a 150 power crossbow. The bolt went through the bale of straw and everything else and dug itself into the hill.
    When asked I told the children that I can put 6 of these bolts out before anyone at night can even find me shooting. They make a rushing sound. Not a big bang like a pistol does.
    That helped put me on the list of people you do not want to break into.
    They make a pistol version of this weapon that is about 50-76 lb pull. It shoots a bolt the size of a pencil. No need for additional ammunition. I seriously doubt that anyone will outlaw No. 2 lead pencils anywhere soon.
    Even if they did, pens are quite cheap at the dollar store. So are feathers at any farm with chickens.
    That is what is silly about outlawing guns. There are always alternate choices if you look for them.

  17. January 14, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Luckily, we live in a neighborhood in which break-ins are virtually unknown, and any fool trying to enter would have to get by our large and very aggressive German Shepherd, the commotion of which would allow me to leisurely reach over to my nightstand for my old S@W M57 .41 Magnum, loaded with some very hot JHP handloads. I think I’ve got all bases covered.

    • January 14, 2013 at 5:32 pm

      Hi John,

      Very much as it is here. We live in a rural area – and it’s a safe bet that every house has guns inside, as well people prepared to use them, if need be.

      Hence, home invasion attacks are nonexistent here.

      • liberranter
        January 14, 2013 at 5:42 pm

        Same situation here in my neck of the woods. The next home invasion to take place out here would be the first, as far as I know.

      • January 14, 2013 at 7:09 pm

        Some folks thought that here, until a neighbor was shot and killed in her home just a mile away. She was unarmed, and evidently let her killer into the house – or didn’t have the door locked. Turns out they were both recently from Texas… one of those ex-husbands stalking a former wife.

        There is no square inch of the planet where the risk of attack is zero.

        • January 14, 2013 at 7:56 pm

          Absolutely.

          That’s why a gun is never far from my hand!

        • Rooney
          January 14, 2013 at 8:06 pm

          I’m sorry about your neighbor.

          If I know you I’ll greet you at my front door with a smile.

          If I don’t know you I’ll greet you at my front door with a smile and a handgun.

          • Don Cooper
            January 15, 2013 at 1:44 pm

            I simply never open the door until I know who it is. I’ve had entire conversation through a closed door and then sent them on their way. Simple and effective.

  18. Gil
    January 14, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    Gee, I guess Eric and co. can feel happy that “stand your ground” laws are becoming more common so they can start shooting who they don’t like (just make sure you felt they made you feel threatened first).

    Clover

    • Tor Munkov
      January 14, 2013 at 4:55 pm

      Gil, try to read these two articles while not projecting or interjecting yourself into them in anyway, because they truly have nothing to do with you whatsoever. I know you can learn to do that, if you try.

      1)
      Two 45 year old deaf twins who discovered they were going blind and would never see each other again were put to death by a doctor in Belgian hospital at their request.

      The twin brothers, from the Antwerp region of Belgium, wishes were carried out by doctors at Brussels University Hospital after finding out they would also soon go blind. The brothers spent their entire lives together and were unable to bear the thought of never seeing each other again.

      2)
      Allyn Rose, 24, a Miss America contestant plans to undergo preemptive double mastectomy this Saturday after competing for the title of Miss America as Miss D.C.

      She is removing both her healthy breasts after the contest as a preventive measure to reduce her chances of developing the disease that killed her mother, grandmother and great aunt.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

      http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/america-contestant-preemptive-double-mastectomy-article-1.1238774

    • methylamine
      January 14, 2013 at 5:02 pm

      On another note, you still haven’t stopped by to visit, Gil.
      I’m lonely. Come on by.

    • January 14, 2013 at 5:30 pm

      Typical hysterical emoting and projection, Clover. I expect no more from you.

      You equate a woman using a gun to defend herself and her young children against a violent thug who broke into her home with yahoos “shooting people who they don’t like.”

      You’re not even worth the 17 seconds it took me to type in this reply.

    • liberranter
      January 14, 2013 at 5:58 pm

      Gil = Acronym for “Government-Initiated Lurker”

      • dom
        January 15, 2013 at 12:28 am

        I love it! Perfect.

        • liberranter
          January 15, 2013 at 4:06 pm

          “Grotesquely Ignorant Loser” is actually a more apt acronym.

    • Clam
      January 14, 2013 at 6:16 pm

      Are you retarded?
      How old are you?
      Did you go publik skewl?
      Gee.

    • Rooney
      January 14, 2013 at 7:55 pm

      Stand your ground laws are very specific as to how they apply.

    • January 15, 2013 at 2:44 pm

      Dear Gil,

      Do you own a home? I’d like to make you a yard sign.

      No charge! You like “free shit” don’t you?

      It will read:

      “Arms are For Hugging – Our Home is a Gun Free Zone”

      Just provide your mailing address, click “reply” and you will receive it in the mail.

      One condition. You have to promise to display it prominently on your front yard or on your front door.

      • liberranter
        January 15, 2013 at 4:07 pm

        “Arms are For Hugging – Our Home is a Gun Free Zone”

        Now THAT one I hadn’t seen or heard before. PRICELESS!

        • January 15, 2013 at 4:17 pm

          Dear liberranter,

          Glad you liked it!

          With all the shit raining down on us from the statists, we need to have a laugh now and then.

          Hey, otherwise, who knows? We might “go postal.” Right?

          Isn’t that what the clovers are afraid we might do?

          • liberranter
            January 15, 2013 at 5:48 pm

            Next time I go out to the range for target practice, I need to make a point of gathering up my spent shell casings (there’s a big aluminum bucket that the range master maintains for these, which, after it gets full, he takes in to be recycled, hopefully for manufacture of new rounds), take them home with me, and scatter them around the walkway next to my front door. Just to send a subtle message, mind you (here is one recurring reason why I feel compelled to do so. As I often point out, the knives in my neck of the woods aren’t the world’s sharpest).

        • MoT
          January 15, 2013 at 4:25 pm

          It reminds me of those “Smoke Free Zone” signs I’ve seen at the university. I’m tempted to make up some stickers and stick them onto the end of “Free” and reword it to “Freely”.

          • January 15, 2013 at 4:52 pm

            Dear MoT,

            Champions of gun rights should take signs similar to that with them every time they go on a TV talk show.

            They could give them to the victim disarmament advocates, and challenge them to put them on their front lawns.

            Can you imagine Alex Jones doing that the next time he goes on CNN?

          • liberranter
            January 15, 2013 at 5:50 pm

            Or, in the case of “Gun Free Zone,” reverse the order of “gun” and “free.” What better way to get the Clovertards worked up into a frenzy?

        • IndividualAudienceMember
          January 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm

          The hugging, reminds me of a scene from the film Elf, where Elf wants to hug a rabid raccoon.

          BTW, Don’t watch that film.

    • Gil
      January 16, 2013 at 2:33 am

      This link didn’t make it in the previous post:

      CloverCloverCloverClover

  19. Eightsouthman
    January 14, 2013 at 3:08 pm

    Mambe, you’re not sure of the circumstances with this woman’s gun? Good. She doesn’t live to keep you or anyone else abreast of her gun conditions nor anything else. It’s called the right to do whatever you feel right in doing in your own home. What does the NRA promote? Wouldn’t have a clue since I’m not a member. I never could understand why anyone would have an unloaded gun. It’s just a club at that point and a not very good one either. I’d much rather have a baseball bat than an unloaded gun. Are you implying she wasn’t a safe person? Sure you are. And that’s the reason the cops knew these people well due to her twins shooting people left and right with that gun. Too bad everyone isn’t as smart as you.

    • Tor Munkov
      January 14, 2013 at 4:31 pm

      Well said, I agree 100%. My house my rules. I don’t understand the national inquirer mentality of everyone. Or playing Fantasy Detective. Or why defending ones home is a group exercise or subject to a vote. Though not required, Melinda made every effort to retreat and to minimize her need to defend herself with her weapon.

      The Castle Doctrine / Defense of Habitation Principle is a natural law doctrine that designates a person’s abode or vehicle as a place in which you have certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances use force, up to and including deadly force, to defend yourself against an intruder by all means available without becoming liable to prosecution.

      Deadly force is considered justified, and a defense of justifiable homicide applicable, in cases “when the actor reasonably fears imminent peril of death or serious bodily harm to herself or another”. It is a set of principles that can be invoked, not a litany of item by item protocols that must be adhered to. Other facts and circumstances don’t matter, it doesn’t matter what other alternatives there were to deadly force, Her House Her Rules.

      • Rooney
        January 14, 2013 at 7:44 pm

        Colorado also includes a “capability of causing harm” clause. That this supports lethal force in this woman’s case and in similar cases is obvious. It also supports it in situations where one large and fit person defends himself against multiple assailants.

        • Tor Munkov
          January 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm

          Let’s say a 4 year old neighbor kid was able to break into your house. Even in that case, doesn’t having the capability to get in forcibly imply the capability to cause harm? Castle law must be absolute.

          • ozymandias
            January 14, 2013 at 11:42 pm

            castle is another bit of exceptional geography, isn’t it? my physical body is my ‘castle’ – everything else is just insulation.

    • IndividualAudienceMember
      January 14, 2013 at 4:50 pm

      Nice, Eightsouthman. I liked it.

      I doubt the NRA considers a locked front door to be a gun lock. Even a shut gate, for that matter.
      Plenty of others do though.

  20. mamba
    January 14, 2013 at 1:45 pm

    I’m glad she’s ok and her attacker didn’t attack back. This could have gotten ugly quickly…but she “self defensed” him properly. (gotta keep my words as neutral as possible, Eric )

    But was curious…since she had little to no time to react, this implies she had the gun loaded and ready in her home. Forget clover rules…doesn’t even the NRA recommend locking up guns unloaded with ammunition separate for safety? Or is this relaxed now that guns = lives saved?

    Becasue if it was loaded and the guy was unarmed, then he’d have been armed pretty quick if he found it before she could get to it. Or was she wearing it around the house too? Not sure the scenario here.

    • MoT
      January 14, 2013 at 4:52 pm

      From what I’ve heard burbling about the interwebs I believe they kept the guns “safely locked away” and she managed to get it out in time. For this they praised her. Small praise indeed.

    • January 14, 2013 at 5:36 pm

      Would you keep a fire extinguisher in a locked cabinet and not charged? So that when there’s a fire you have to find the key, open the cabinet, then charge up the extinguisher before you can do anything about the fire…?

      I keep loaded guns readily accessible to me wherever I happen to be in the house. An unloaded gun is as useless as ice skates in Death Valley.

      And kids? We don’t have any. If we did, they’d be taught to respect guns – and keep the hell away from them. As I was taught when I was a kid.

      • jdl
        January 14, 2013 at 6:16 pm

        Agreed! There’s an awkward age when kids are too young to understand the danger of firearms yet potentially old enough to fire one, but I’d never unload guns for that reason, only keep them a little higher up where the tot can’t reach. Yes, all you anti-gunners out there, such measures occasionally fail, but the vast majority of shootings by children occur when parents have neither taken any steps to keep a gun away from easy reach nor educated their children properly about firearm safety.

        I’m really sick of anti-gun types screaming that it’s madness — MADNESS — to have a loaded gun in a house with children. It’s every bit as “mad” to have a stove in a house with children. One of my girlfriends suffered a nasty scalp burn as a child when she tipped over a pan of hot grease. BAN STOVES!

        • MoT
          January 14, 2013 at 7:18 pm

          As in anything common sense needs not only be taught but be absorbed.

        • methylamine
          January 15, 2013 at 1:12 am

          Agreed, jdl.

          Quiz question: you have a loaded, unlocked handgun at home. Your neighbor has an unfenced pool.
          Which is more likely to kill your child?

          Answer: the pool…100 times as likely

          The “no firearms at home with children” is not only retarded to anyone who’s grown up around guns…but flat wrong by two orders of magnitude.

          My little girl–7–has been to the range already and put holes in paper with “her” 10/22 ruger…and we play in the backyard with a BB/pellet gun.

          I can’t wait to introduce the boy. Is two too young? :)

          • MoT
            January 15, 2013 at 4:40 pm

            Well, last July a pond across the street “claimed” the life of a young boy. The parents were oblivious that he’d vanished for nearly an hour. WTF?! So I suppose we should have pond protection?

          • methylamine
            January 15, 2013 at 7:43 pm

            No, just band ponds with magazines holding more than 10 bullets…wait, I mean deeper than six inches.

          • Tor Munkov
            January 15, 2013 at 8:19 pm

            From the “There oughta be a law people:” Here’s the “there oughta be a world governing conference.” (good news, there is!)

            World Conference On Drowning
            http://www.worldconferenceondrowningprevention2011.org/

            Brought to you by The United Kingdoms of the United Nations. God save the nannies & queens.
            http://www.worldconferenceondrowningprevention2011.org/content_common/pg-partners.seo

          • Boothe
            January 16, 2013 at 10:00 pm

            Methyl, two is certainly not too young. My dad was still an active gunsmith when I was still in a crib and he gave me real (broken) revolvers to play with (Gasp!). At six, have gave me a very nice turn of the (19th) century Winchester single shot boy’s rifle. I still have that little rifle to this day and all three of my boys fired it before they were ten. Gun safety was drilled into me from the git-go. And then it was drilled into me some more after that; wash, rinse, repeat. Only once have I ever had an accidental discharge and the weapon was pointed in a safe direction at the time. The NRA has excellent material available both for training youth in safety and marksmanship. If the child is old enough to understand basic concepts, they are old enough to learn firearms safety and I can’t stress the importance of that enough.

      • liberranter
        January 15, 2013 at 4:03 pm

        And kids? We don’t have any. If we did, they’d be taught to respect guns – and keep the hell away from them. As I was taught when I was a kid.

        An essentiallesson to be taught to kids in ANY household with guns. For me, the first step toward teaching that lesson to my nine-year-old grandson, while he still lived with us, was giving him a pellet gun for Christmas a couple of years back despite (oh hell, BECAUSE OF) his mother’s protests. On Christmas Day afternoon, I took him outside with the gun and began drilling him in the essentials of gun safety (we drilled “NEVER,EVER point ANY kind of gun at anyone – EVER- unless you intend to shoot them!” until he was almost in tears from the repetition of it). Within four hours, he had the procedure for safe loading, firing, and clearing the gun down to rote. I then told him “this is merely a simple introduction to what you will do when you handle a ‘real’ gun in a few years. Better that you learn the basics now with this and get comfortable with good habits than start cold turkey with a more powerful and potentially dangerous tool in the future.”

        I had the pleasure of taking him over the summer to a Boy Scout Camp firing range back east for his first 22 rifle shoot. He took to it like a duck to water, in no small part, I would like to think, due to the training he had earlier in life.

        And to those who think 11 years old is too young for firearms training, I got my first BB gun at eight and had my first practice on a 22 rifle at 12. In my experience, the earlier the better!

      • mamba
        January 16, 2013 at 8:00 pm

        I’m glad that she was a “responsible gun owner” (NRA’s terms, not mine) then and it worked out for her. Ironic how most everyone else wants to defy even the NRA’s recommendation on firearm storage.

        As for fire extinguishers, A loaded fire extinguisher doesn’t have the risk of accidently going off and killing someone if mishandled, so it’s not a good comparison.

        Why not a loaded abrbed taser for defense and an unloaded gun for the other “fun” stuff? everyone wins that way…

        • January 16, 2013 at 8:18 pm

          Mamba,

          You clearly are ignorant about firearms. Here are a few facts:

          It is virtually impossible for a handgun to “accidentally go off” – unless it is handled recklessly and irresponsibly. Revolvers cannot “go off” (that is, discharge) unless someone first cocks the hammer (or pulls the trigger). You can drop it, throw it against a wall – it’s not going to fire. Unless someone has first cocked the hammer. A deliberate act – exactly like putting a high-powered Corvette into gear. It’s not a problem unless the driver’s inept or reckless – in which case, it’s his fault, not the car’s. Same with the gun.

          Most semi-auto pistols and rifles (more accurately, auto-loaders) have safety catches or (higher-end guns) de-cocking mechanisms/hammer blocks that make it all but impossible to discharge the gun unless the safety is off – or the trigger is pulled. And even then, unless a round has been jacked into the chamber, the gun cannot fire – even if the trigger is pulled and the safety is off.

          The point is, they’re safe – unless handled recklessly. Just like a car; just like scores of other things that can “kill” just as lethally.

          The fire extinguisher-gun comparison is an excellent comparison. You hopefully will never need to use the fire extinguisher. But if you do need it, you’ll be damn thankful to have it at the ready and easily accessible – not locked in a closet and with the fire-retardant in a separate container. In the case of the gun, if it’s unloaded and locked away, it is just a lump of useless metal. You may not have the luxury of time to get to it, load it – etc. – before the thug who’s crawling through your bedroom window has his knife to your throat – or his gun pointed at your head.

          Tasers? Please. If we ever have to defend ourselves against the government – which is what the 2A is all about – a Taser will be as useful as a bailing bucket on Titanic.

          You are very clearly a hoplophobe – despite your protestations to the contrary.

        • ozymandias
          January 16, 2013 at 8:38 pm

          “even the NRA”….

          NRA isn’t the arbiter, spokes organization, you imagine it is. Its more like the loyal opposition.

          Was McMurphy still McMurphy after his lobotomy? That’s loaded vs unloaded. Gun safes are to protect the guns themselves – they’re as good as gold.

          What’s the line from the untouchables? “Isn’t that just like a wop? Brings a taser to a gunfight.”

        • BrentP
          January 16, 2013 at 8:47 pm

          A fire extinguisher is often a pressure vessel and has all the risks, including injury or death, that can come from mishandling pressure vessels of any sort.

    • Rooney
      January 14, 2013 at 7:50 pm

      I don’t need a “village” to approve how I hammer a nail.

      • MoT
        January 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm

        That’s right. But it seems the village idiots love to hammer people.

  21. steve
    January 14, 2013 at 9:27 am

    I always heard pit bulls were hard to kill, but I put down two aggressive strays in my yard with ease, thanks to Mr. Mossberg 500, loaded with 2 3/4 inch 00 buck. Self defense isn’t just about two legged dawgs, but four legged ones as well. They signed their death warrant when they chased Momma up the porch steps. No remorse on my part.

    The pump or semi-auto shotgun can be tactically employed same as a sub-machine gun. How many 6-round bursts from a 30-round mag? Same as from my pump shotgun, maybe even a few more projectiles with each squeeze of the trigger. With the pump shotgun, you even have the advantage of reloading while the weapon is in battery.

    Get the 12 gauge! Three inch magnums are a little harsh, but with some practice, even the tiniest among us can get used to the 2 3/4 inch shells.

  22. JdL
    January 14, 2013 at 4:41 am

    Here’s a gross spin on the incident:

    http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2013/tle704-20130106-05.html

    MSN headline: Trigger-happy Atlanta mom shoots intruder in the face 5 times

    Apparently removed after feedback…

    • liberranter
      January 15, 2013 at 3:49 pm

      Trigger-happy Atlanta mom shoots intruder in the face 5 times

      Now THAT was just plain stupid, even for an MSM “news” organ.

  23. chiph
    January 13, 2013 at 10:07 pm

    FYI – some of the photos that were in this article are from Oleg Volk:

    http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/arms

    He’s done contract for for a few manufacturers (Coonan Arms, Keltec), as well as “public service” photo shoots like these.

  24. January 13, 2013 at 7:38 pm

    quote—-I live in a society that does not allow killing machines in the streets,—unquote

    So you live in a place with no black males????

    In case no one has noticed, most murders are committed by young black men. For some odd reason, the whites living in the suburbs dont go around killing each other quite so often.

    BTW, there should be an L in the beginning of the city name.

    For the .410 shells, you can remove the shot, pour in hit glue and put the shot pack in.

    then the shot sticks together till it hits the target,
    like the Glaser Safety Slug thats avail for handguns,

    The Taurus Judge is great for across a room,

    this woman did good protecting her family,
    the scuzbag she shot has a lengthy arrest record.

    • MoT
      January 14, 2013 at 4:48 pm

      I’ve no skill in such arts but that was damn effective.

  25. January 13, 2013 at 11:50 am

    Larken Rose has a question for anyone who owns an “assault rifle”

    From My Cold, Dead Hands!

    • dom
      January 13, 2013 at 1:25 pm

      “I may hide this”

      Interesting statement he made because I just overhead a conversation yesterday about this exact thing while sitting at the food court in a mall.

      Tom: If they come for my guns where should I hide them?

      Harry: You know, here’s a school of thought on this…

      Tom: Yeah, and what does it teach?

      Harry: That’s the fucking time you’ll need them MOST!

  26. DR
    January 13, 2013 at 11:06 am

    Kudos Eric, for running both photos. The drive-by press has been intentionally suppressing the racial nature of MOST violent crime for decades.

    Maybe that’s “Obama’s son?”

    • January 13, 2013 at 11:08 am

      You bet – happy to!

    • liberranter
      January 13, 2013 at 4:46 pm

      Maybe that’s “Obama’s son?”

      Obama pretty much “adopted” Trayvon Martin after his death, so there’s little reason to believe he wouldn’t “adopt” this loser either.

  27. SRV
    January 13, 2013 at 3:33 am

    Seems you took some liberties with the details (poetic license?).

    She emptied her gun (clearly in a complete panic… and of course rightfully so… they must have been terrified) and her aim was so bad the intruder (almost certainly a burglury attempt) was able to drive away… he finally pulled over down the road and passed out.

    IF – he’d had a gun (thankfully he did not, and of course would have if his intentions were as sinister as you seem to think) they are all dead as soon as she fires the first shot.

    Something you cowboys may want to consider next time you leave your family home alone with a firearm.

    • ozymandias
      January 13, 2013 at 4:11 am

      even if they’re cowgirls & cowkiddies? or are you projecting your family?

    • methylamine
      January 13, 2013 at 5:13 am

      So, what are you advocating exactly, SRV?

      That she remain peacefully disarmed, and beg him to “just take our stuff, please don’t hurt us”?

      Or, trade her body for her children’s lives?

      As far as “complete panic” and “bad aim”–the report I heard was she hit him 5/6 shots, all of them face and neck.

      You’re probably a hopeless hoplophobe, and your knowledge of firearms limited to TeeVee and movies–where you can vicariously exercise the violence you’re too timid to express directly. In TeeVee and movies, a single shot causes 200 pound men to fly backwards six feet and die instantly.

      In my previous career as a doctor I spent some time in emergency rooms. I saw plenty of GSW’s at Ben Taub here in Houston–the major central trauma center.

      The one that made the biggest impression was the 250lb “gentleman” who’d been shot nine times with a 9mm; four in the limbs, three in the chest, two in the abdomen.

      Dead? No. Unconscious? No. Rather, he was cursing up a storm planning to “kill the muthafuckas that popped caps in me”.

      I learned three lessons that night:
      1) 9mm isn’t big enough
      2) nine times isn’t enough, and
      3) buy the meanest hottest-loaded hollow points you can find

      And it’s the main reason my wife knows to use the 12ga–not her Glock–if the bad guy comes in the house.

      How do you defend YOUR family?
      With unicorn kisses and fairy-tale wishes?

      • January 13, 2013 at 5:37 am

        Dear meth,

        How do you defend YOUR family?
        With unicorn kisses and fairy-tale wishes?

        Exactly!

        Remember the in James Cameron’s “Aliens?”

        Gorman: Apone! Look… we can’t have any firing in there. I, uh… I want you to collect magazines from everybody.

        Hudson: Is he fuckin’ crazy?

        Frost: What the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh language?

        • Gil
          January 14, 2013 at 3:18 pm

          CloverThanks to “stand your ground” laws you don’t have to feel your life was threatening rather you just have to feel the other person was up to no good to shoot them.

          • Rooney
            January 14, 2013 at 7:15 pm

            Sorry Sir:

            That’s not the case. Stand your ground laws and castle doctrine are specific.

          • Gil
            January 16, 2013 at 2:37 am

            Nope that’s the traditional “duty to retreat” law where you can only use force as a last resort. “Stand your ground” laws are to give full decision-making to the home-owner.CloverCloverClover

            • January 16, 2013 at 11:06 am

              More ignorance (or dishonesty), Clover.

              You clumsily try to conflate “stand your ground” out in public and in one’s home.

              If some strange person has violated the sanctity of your home – if they have entered your house – they have crossed a line beyond which they are no longer entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The creep only wanted the TV and wasn’t armed? Too bad. He got what he deserved, because the homeowner could not possibly know the creep was not bent on murder – and it is ethically insane to give the benefit of the doubt to the home-invading creep over the homeowner, in his or her own home – at the very likely expense of that homeowner’s life.

              What sort of person is it, Clover, that expresses such solicitude for criminals over decent people?

              I think you know the answer. It’s not so much the criminals you care about.

              It’s the innocent free people you loathe.

          • Boothe
            January 16, 2013 at 5:14 pm

            Gil, as Eric rightly points out you confuse “stand your ground” (i.e. resisting rape, robbery and assault with lethal force in public versus attempting to run away) with the “Castle Doctrine.” My home is indeed my castle; therefore if you cross the moat and breach the gate expect to be met with lethal force. Sorry Gil, if someone breaks (or even walks) into my home without being invited, I have to assume the worst. If I am pointing a gun at him, I tell him to stop and he does not, he has implictly confirmed my suspicions and he leaves a reasonable man no other choice than to stop him.

            If stopping the assailant results in his demise, that is his fault not mine since he chose to violate my privacy, my property and the peaceful harmony of my home. Should he pay the ultimate price for his stupid transgression, all is not lost. His death will serve as a reminder to others of criminal bent that their chosen profession can and often will be fatal, thereby reducing violent crime overall.

            Furthermore, assuming the responsibility for defending my home, my family, my person and my property removes a burden from my fellow countrymen. It lessens the need for costumed crime historians and eliminates the costs of incarceration and recidivism.

            Do a little research Gil. Here’s a hint, The Wright-Rossi Study (http://www.saf.org/journal/14/ResearchAgendaonGuns,Violence,andGunControl.htm). It was commissioned by the U.S. gun-vernment to discredit the position of law abiding gun owners. Instead it changed the minds of the anti-gun researchers that conducted it and proved that private firearms are used millions of times a year to thwart crime, usually without shots ever being fired. Check out the figures this year to date: http://extranosalley.com/?p=9905.

            Oh and BTW Gil, you’re “down under” and we can all see that comprehensive gun control laws have made your Aussie criminals, cops and politicians (that was redundant I fear) safer at the expense of the general public. So how we conduct our affairs with regard to dealing with criminals here in “th’ States” is really none of your business anyway! Capisce?

      • mithrandir
        January 13, 2013 at 5:21 pm

        In TeeVee and movies, a single shot causes 200 pound men to fly backwards six feet and die instantly.

        It doesn’t? I thought it was Newtons’ fourth law. Next you will be telling me it is impossible to see an incoming laser beam. ;)

      • SRV
        January 13, 2013 at 6:10 pm

        @methylamine

        I live in a society that does not allow killing machines in the streets, does not have 3 millions guns floating around (to please and feed the greed of the corporate masters), does not demonize the poor as “takers” (they are not, they are poor and disenfranchised), and provides the basics of life (and world class health care) to all at no cost, without question. Yes, I pay higher taxes and it’s worth every penny… and much more it seems, when I bottom feed in places like this.Clover

        I live in peace and do not spend my idle time preparing to murder to protect my posessions and family.

        You did not address the fact that this woman and her children would most surely be dead if this man brought a gun with him (you suggest all should be armed)… or found the husband’s cashe of guns before he came upon the family… but I guess that would put a damper on all the macho fun and games with your buddies… me, I play hockey… lots of hurt but nobody dies. Clover

        @Bevin,

        Thank you for the civil reply… you of course do as you please. My contempt is really for the corporate machine that will foster a cowboy society, and stoke fear and hate, for profit… there is no other motivation. But, I do my best to try to understand the need for protection under the current situation in America… good luck.

        • January 13, 2013 at 7:08 pm

          So, Clover, your society does not allow cars in the streets? Even though they “kill”?

          And how ’bout clubs, knives and fists? How many victims of these implements are there in your land of peace and freedom?

          My gun pleases me – because it means I have the tool necessary to defend myself and my family. Because cops cannot do so. As in this case. And the courts have expressly stated they are under no obligation to even try to do so. Where does that leave us, Clover? Do you object to the gunvernment having guns? Or are the lives of gunvernment officials worth more than our lives?

          Who is demonizing “the poor,” Clover? We have been talking about self-defense against violent, predatory thugs. Your posts suggest you approve of such, or at least apologize for such – and denounce anyone who dares to assert his right to defend against such. What a sick idea!

          Your health care comes at “no cost”? Really? And yet you then go on to say, “Yes, I pay higher taxes.” Make up your mind!

          And: feel free to hand over all your assets to the state, to be disposed of as it deems fit. But keep your hands out of my pockets, ok? Or do you assert a right to put a gun to my head to make me hand it over? And if you do, how can you be opposed to guns? Or is it just that you’re opposed to guns in the hands of those who don’t do as you say?

          You write:

          “You did not address the fact that this woman and her children would most surely be dead if this man brought a gun with him..”

          Says who? You? Are you omniscient? The relevant point is that this woman was able to repel a thug bent on who-knows-what. You criticize her right to do this. Her right to defend her life and the lives of her children against a home-invasion by an armed thug (and yes, Clover, a crowbar is a weapon – as are the hands and muscles of a large man against a small woman). Despicable.

        • methylamine
          January 13, 2013 at 8:20 pm

          @SRV–

          I struggled at first to comprehend your answer, a masterpiece of misdirection, wishful thinking, delusion, and a sprinkle of fairy dust…cough, cough.

          From the hockey reference I’ll assume two things–first, you DO sublimate your violence via hockey, and second, you live in Kanada.

          Having recently responded to one of your countrywomen–a logical debate partner–I informed her that her utopian Toronto was actually more dangerous than my “cowboy” home of Texas.

          I dredged up those statistics and did another 5 minute search; here goes:

          Total crime in Kanada is 2.5 million, population 35 million. USSA, 11.9 million, population 315 million.

          We have half the crime of your socialist utopia.

          More? You have eight times the per-capita burglary rate, eight times the assaults, 50% more car thefts…shall I continue?

          We don’t have 3 million “killing machines”–unless you’re speaking of only AR-15’s, and that’s an underestimate and doesn’t count the many other fine semi-auto rifles like the HK91, AK-47, SKS, FN-FAL, and others. (Does the mere mention of all those Evil Black Rifles frighten you? It certainly does the tyrants!)

          We have at least 300 million guns–and I think that’s a gross underestimate.

          And that’s a wonderful thing; it means that brave, competent, empowered woman could defend herself and her children against a THUG!

          I live in peace and do not spend my idle time preparing to murder to protect my posessions and family.

          No, you live in a fairy tale betting on statistics that (compared to Texas where I live, with even less crime than America overall) are stacked against you. If you become a victim, you’ll be just that–a victim. Would your misguided pacifism comfort you if your family were hurt or god forbid killed?

          You think I’m preparing to murder? It’s exactly the opposite; I love my family more deeply than even my own life, and I’m prepared to defend them against the worst threats. We have food, water, fuel, and medicines if there’s a hurricane or tornado, among other preparations; do you think it’s more “peaceful” to ignore threats?

          You did not address the fact that this woman and her children would most surely be dead if this man brought a gun with him

          I didn’t have to, Mrs. Herman did so quite ably. Had he brought a gun, quite likely the outcome would have been the same–the element of surprise is powerful, and the fastest human reaction time is about 250 milliseconds. IOW, she had the drop on him.

          My contempt is really for the corporate machine that will foster a cowboy society, and stoke fear and hate, for profit… there is no other motivation. But, I do my best to try to understand the need for protection under the current situation in America

          I’ll agree there’s a corporate machine stoking fear and hate–but it’s not the domestic firearms market. It’s the military-industrial complex, and it is guilty as charged a million times over.

          As for the “current situation in America”–a snide way of implying we’re besieged by crime–see the above. You have much more to fear in your enclave than I do here–and I’m prepared to defend myself.

          In short: you should be ashamed of your lack of preparation, your irresponsibility toward your family who depend on you to protect them, and appalled at your own weakness. It’s not a virtue, it’s disgusting.

          • JaimeInTexas
            January 14, 2013 at 4:37 pm

            Do not forget the good ole AR-10

          • methylamine
            January 14, 2013 at 4:58 pm

            @Jaime–

            A hearty “Howdy” to you too sir!

            Yep forgot the AR-10…a fine rifle.

            Funny, it used to be I was “weird” twelve years ago when I showed up at the range with my Evil Black Rifle.

            Nowadays, it’s the wood-stock guys who are in the minority.

            You can hear the distinctive, sharp concussion of AR-15’s being fired a mile before you reach the range.

          • Rooney
            January 14, 2013 at 7:17 pm

            Please stay in Canada.

        • BrentP
          January 13, 2013 at 10:13 pm

          There is no correlation between the violence of a society and firearms availability to the population at large. None. There are very violent societies where firearms are rare. There are very peaceful societies where firearms are common. Then there are the opposites as well. What makes a society violent or not has nothing to do with what tools are available.

          Many societies come to reflect the governments that rule them. That is what has happened to the USA. The USA is a me-first-fuck-you society. It’s a society that rewards and reveres sociopaths. It puts killers on pedestals.

          It’s a society where leveraging power to steal from other people is considered acceptable. It’s how the whole system works. Fuck over someone else before they can fuck over you.

          A magic wand could be waved removing every fire arm from the USA and nothing would change. Nothing. People would just use other tools to the same ends.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 14, 2013 at 2:13 pm

            BrentP, I couldn’t agree more with you. “Many societies come to reflect the governments that rule them. That is what has happened to the USA. The USA is a me-first-fuck-you society. It’s a society that rewards and reveres sociopaths. It puts killers on pedestals.”

            That is so true. I give you Charles Manson as living proof…..a dead Charles Manson if I could deliver him to you no doubt…..and I doubt I could deliver him to you ALIVE.

          • Clam
            January 14, 2013 at 7:05 pm

            A Liberal is a infantile sociopath and the worst of them go into journalism (Eric is a mutant). The sociopath want everyone disarmed so they can be more easily ruled and robbed. Anyone who claims to own you and your income is a sociopath that needs to be eliminated from civil society…Especially the scum that want to disarm you.

          • January 15, 2013 at 1:51 am

            Dear Brent,

            “Many societies come to reflect the governments that rule them.”

            So true.

            Here’s Murray Rothbard explaining the views of 4th century BC Chinese anarchist Pao Ching-yen.

            To the common charge that he has overlooked good and benevolent rulers, Pao replied that the government itself is a violent exploitation of the weak by the strong. The system itself is the problem, and the object of government is not to benefit the people, but to control and plunder them. There is no ruler who can compare in virtue with a condition of non-rule.

            Pao Ching-yen also engaged in a masterful study in political psychology by pointing out that the very existence of institutionalized violence by the state generates imitative violence among the people. The common idea, concluded Pao, that strong government is needed to combat disorders among the people, commits the serious error of confusing cause and effect.

            Note in particular the section:

            “the very existence of institutionalized violence by the state generates imitative violence among the people.”

            Have you seen the videos of flash robbers openly looting stores on YouTube?

            They’re simply “redistributing the wealth” the way r.j. advocates. They’re merely being more flagrant about how they go about it.

            No voting, no taxes, no benefits, to disguise the robbery.

            Just “direct transfers.”

          • BrentP
            January 15, 2013 at 4:41 am

            Bevin,
            It was the last time you mentioned Pao Ching-yen that cemented that idea in my mind. I didn’t know the right way to express the thought before then. I have long had the concept of the MFFY society and how it seemed to apply in many things. It is yet another view of society that came to me by examining driving. The way we are just supposed to be compliant to most aggressive people on the road (and elsewhere). It was when I read of Pao Ching-yen from your prior post that it all came together.

          • January 15, 2013 at 5:05 am

            Dear Brent,

            I hear you.

            I never cease to be amazed at how powerful ideas can be. Both right ideas, and wrong ideas.

            Ideas, as Rand loved to reiterate, have consequences.

            The criminal behavior of the Leviathan State teaches the public how to behave, by example, just as you said, and we have seen on YouTube with the utterly shameless flash mob robberies, conducted in broad daylight.

            There’s an old Chinese expression that says “If the upper beams are not straight, the lower beams will be crooked.”

            It means … hell, you know what it means. Only too well.

        • JaimeInTexas
          January 14, 2013 at 4:33 pm

          Funny. I guess that my fire extinguisher I keep means I am an arson machine?

        • methylamine
          January 15, 2013 at 1:15 am

          Damn. Looks like SRV was a two-hit wonder; too bad, I was enjoying the vivisection.

          Maybe I’m a psychopath? I sure do enjoy these little lessons…

        • Boothe
          January 16, 2013 at 10:36 pm

          Dear SRV*, here is proof that gun bans work right from the horse’s…arse…oops…mouth:

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

          Actually SRV, the market drives the manufacturers to produce any consumer product, not the other way around. We don’t live in a “cowboy” society, as you seem to perceive it through your Hollywood video goggles, because of gun companies. The real driving force for actual military grade weapons sales and manufacturing is gun-vernment itself (you know, the same folks that want to take our guns away). We see how that worked out in Russia, Germany, China, Cuba, North Korea, ad nauseam. The results are invariably democide.

          And as far as your “cowboy” comment goes, the “Wild West” was considerably more civilized than South Africa, Belfast or apparently London. There was actually very little crime because criminals knew they would be and often were shot. The one’s that were apprehended by the law were usually either incarcerated under harsh conditions or hanged. People tended to be more polite back then because more people were armed and not afraid to defend themselves.

          When only one of us is armed, then we can treat the other unarmed person any way we like (and that’s what the police often do these days). But when both men are armed and their right to self defense is upheld in a truly free society, regardless of their costume or position, manners and etiquette become much more important. An armed society is indeed a polite society. If you can’t see the logic in that then you are hopelessly delusional.

          Weapons and specifically guns aren’t going away. They will merely end up in the hands of those that wish to monopolize the use of force. That monopoly invariably resides in gun-vernment. So psychopaths and sociopaths bent on committing violent acts will find employment as official enforcers and satisfy their fetish for violence with impunity under colour of law. Only by decentralizing the use of force can we hope to truly remain free. Decentralization means individual ownership.

          But that’s not what you want is it? You want this rainbowed, flowering utopia of unicorns and butterfly kisses where we all skip merrily off into the sunset together in perfect harmony. Move to England then, they don’t own guns there anymore. But if the “gun free crime zone” formerly known as Great Britain isn’t good enough for you, perhaps you’d be happier in disarmed socialistic utopia of North Korea. Let us know. Maybe we can take up a collection to get you a one way ticket there. Take Gil with you while you’re at it.

          *SRV = what? Silly Retarded Victim? Spouting Regurgitated Vacuities?

      • JaimeInTexas
        January 14, 2013 at 4:35 pm

        A heart felt howdy! from a fellow Houstonian.

      • Giuseppe Crowe
        January 15, 2013 at 2:48 am

        Meth,

        You worked the ER at Ben Taub? I am impressed. I lived in Houston for about 2.5 years and actually totally enjoyed the experience but that was a long time ago. Ben Taub, for those of you who are not aware, is the city hospital in Houston where people without insurance are treated….I’d respond to your assertion about 9mm’s effectiveness by simply pointing out that there are various rounds that are more or less effective. There are people who will never be comfortable shooting something bigger and meaner than a 9mm. If every time one shoots, there is no control, it’s almost worse than being unarmed. Case in point, I bought a Kahr PM40 for my girlfriend. It’s a very small gun for a .40 S&W and it needs a firm hand to maintain control. My GF can do OK with it but a friend of ours was just so totally intimidated that she nearly dropped it on every shot. For that woman, my Browning 9mm is a much more comfortable experience. The standard weight ammo for the 9mm is 115gr. My 9mm defense ammo is 147gr nasty hollowpoints. I can almost guarantee that if the dude in your account had been shot nine times with said rounds he would not be conscious and probably not among the breathing. Sorry to ramble. Countless words have been written about the best round/gun for use in self-defense. For my money, however, the best one for any given individual is the one he or she can shoot competently and that he or she carries. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled interactions.

        • methylamine
          January 15, 2013 at 3:29 am

          Hi Guiseppe,

          I was a psychiatry resident so I wasn’t stitching those guys up–just bringing them down from whatever they were on…or bringing them up from whatever they were missing!

          I still got called into my share of codes for cardiac arrests, and I liked hanging around the trauma areas during lulls.

          You’re right on the choice of ammo. I’m sure he was shot with FMJ rounds; no WAY he could have survived those chest wounds with a proper JHP. I didn’t get to see them pulled out–he went straight to the OR.

          Ben Taub was another reason I decided to leave medicine…the callousness, the self-destruction (by both doctors and patients), the bureaucracy (state-funded hospital). A living hell.

        • January 15, 2013 at 10:59 am

          Hi Giusseppe,

          I got my wife a small frame S&W .38 wheelgun which is kept loaded with hollowpoint defensive rounds. It’s a simple, effective weapon that ought to get most jobs done, if it ever came to that.

        • Boothe
          January 16, 2013 at 6:49 pm

          In re: Methyl, Eric and Guiseppe on handguns and ammunition. Although I firmly believe frontal area and mass (i.e. calibers beginning with .4 on up) are important considerations, bullet terminal performance is key also. Back years ago the Geco division of Dynamit Nobel developed what was known on this side of the pond as the BAT (Blitz Action Trauma) or Action Safety bullet in Europe. As I recall it would penetrate windshield glass nicely, cut a “cookie cutter” hole out of a car tire, had low ricochet potential and excellent incapacitation power even after passing through barriers. The German government wouldn’t let their police use this bullet because it was deemed “unnecessarily effective” and mandating that they retain over-penetrating, ricocheting and ineffective “ball” ammo for their 9mm Parabellum service weapons.

          A study of the wound ballistics (on a human decedent), performance and general specifications can be found in this interesting study from Australia (http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_39/iss_3/JFS393940612.pdf). There are of course other very effective personal defense rounds available for the ubiquitous 9X19 rendering it considerably more effective for a person who has trouble controlling anything starting in .4 (or even smaller magnum or +P rounds).

          If I had to choose one weapon to do everything with and still be able to allow a woman or child to defend themselves with it, it would be a .22 WMR (magnum) revolver with a 4″ or 6″ barrel. The reason for this is it the .22 Mag is capable of taking game up to Whitetail deer size, there are good hollow points available that give it the equivalent “stopping power” of a .38 Special Round Nose Lead and you can carry a lot of ammo at minimal weight compared to centerfire cartridges. In addition to this, a 4 or 6 inch barrel will give even a novice shooter decent accuracy out to 25 yards.

          Would it be ideal? No. As BrentP pointed out in a previous post about the Taurus Judge, one-size-fits-all / multi-purpose tools seldom if ever do everything well. But it would do everything well enough if that’s all you could have. And it’s controllable for the diminuitve or even feeble among us.

          That being said, I’m am a strong proponent of the .45 ACP…especially with a high performance self defense round (I’m old school and like Federal Hydrashoks but won’t turn my nose up at Gold Sabers). As the old street racer’s adage goes “There is no replacement for displacement.” The same principle applies to handgun rounds when stopping violent aggressors; the bigger the hole the better.

          • Giuseppe Crowe
            January 17, 2013 at 12:14 am

            Hey Boothe, et al,

            My experience with 45ACP has been varied. My brother’s 1911 milsurp is fairly worthless…I would not bet my life on it. However, I’ve shot 45s that my firearms instructors used in IPSA competitions and boy howdy were they sweet. My current favorite is a 1911 frame STI Trojan in .40 S&W. For me it has almost no downside after the debugging period (faulty ejector). It’s as comfortable to use as my Browning Hi-Power and will roll along all day long at the range. The point is, if you can pick up and almost automatically handle a firearm due to practice and familiarity, then that’s the one that will save your life if the time comes. At some point ballistics, wound channels, muzzle velocity etc. become moot. You gotta dance with the one that brung you, as they say in Texas.

          • January 17, 2013 at 12:31 am

            Dear Boothe,

            “There is no replacement for displacement.” The same principle applies to handgun rounds when stopping violent aggressors; the bigger the hole the better.

            I agree.

            As long as the ergonomics and recoil are not a problem for the specific shooter, then that is unquestionably the way to go.

            Actually, this is an old issue that was pretty much settled a century ago.

            The 9mm vs .45 ACP “debate” has been rehashed only because the Pentagon idiotically went back to smaller caliber handguns with the Beretta M9 in the 80s.

            The brasshats totally blanked out the lessons they learned a century earlier.

            American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War using the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, found it to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[9] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the late 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[10] The problems prompted the then–Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[10]

            Following the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde pistol round effectiveness tests, Colonel John T. Thompson stated that the new pistol “should not be of less than .45 caliber” and would preferably be semi-automatic in operation.[10]

            This was what led to the Colt 1911 in the first place.

            I’m addressing only the technical issues here of course.

            The war itself was naked colonialism, imperialism, and racism.

          • January 17, 2013 at 12:48 am

            Dear Guiseppe,

            My experience with 45ACP has been varied. My brother’s 1911 milsurp is fairly worthless…I would not bet my life on it.

            Was it failure to feed problems?

            Surplus 1911s are usually very reliable with the 230 grain round nosed bullets, aka “military ball.”

            Semi-wadcutters sometimes have problems though.

            The problem is usually the feed ramp. Customizers began working the feed ramp, sort of the way hot rodders worked the intake manifolds, to reduce friction. Made a big difference.

            Nowadays “factor custom” 1911s come that way out of the box.

          • Giuseppe Crowe
            January 17, 2013 at 4:35 am

            Signor Bevin,

            Nope not feed problems with the 1911 45ACP….I just could not hit the broad side of a barn with it…neither could my brother. You are spot on in terms of all the aftermarket or even homebrew tweaks. Polishing the feedramp on my Hi Power made a lot of difference….having had it done by a gunsmith who was retiring, I have now figured out that it’s a very easy thing to do with a Dremel tool and some rouge on a cloth buffer. This is where all the years of sharpening woodworking hand tools comes in handy……anyway, thanks for the fun discussions…..

          • January 17, 2013 at 5:22 am

            Dear Guiseppe,

            I have now figured out that it’s a very easy thing to do with a Dremel tool and some rouge on a cloth buffer.

            Right!

            Many of the aftermarket custom gunsmiths do exactly that.

            Anyway, glad it wasn’t a jamming issue.

            The Colt 1911 itself is capable of surprising accuracy, considering how loose the fit is between the slide and the receiver.

            I always like the Browning HP. Never owned one. But I shot one at a range once, and I always liked it.

            I will never understand the adoption of the Beretta M9. What a POS.

            Beretta makes some good guns. Its break action shotguns for example. But the M9 was garbage.

          • methylamine
            January 17, 2013 at 2:42 pm

            Guiseppe, I’m with you on the bigger-hole theory.

            A BIG part of recoil is gun mass. I have a huge H&K .45, and its felt recoil is less than my wife’s Glock .40; the only downside being it’s not exactly concealable.

            But as has been said here, it’s ultimately the gun you’re most comfortable with, the one that’s a third hand and puts rounds on target, that will save your life…even if it’s a 22.

          • Boothe
            January 17, 2013 at 4:01 pm

            Guiseppe the accuracy results you experienced with your brother’s mil 1911 do not surprise me nor are they unique. My dad’s old WWII era Colt would barely hold an 8″ group at 15 yards with ball ammo. Of course you could throw it down in the mud, stomp on it and then pick it up and shoot it. The slop was there for reliability under field conditions and a typical “stock” mil 1911 is probably little better than a seven yard “last ditch” gun.

            Once you start tightening up the slide and barrel bushing, the potential for foreign material causing a fail to function increases. I had a Colt Officer’s ACP years ago that I did a lot of work on. It was tight and accurate (for its short barrel and sight radius). But I loaded up some rounds with Hercules Unique and didn’t do a full crimp. Apparently the pressure was to low for complete combustion. Some of the unburned flakes of power actually made their way in between the barrel and bushing causing the slide to stay out of battery. I would have never beleived it if I hadn’t seen it myself. Having a tight barrel / bushing interface on a 1911 pattern weapon will certainly help with accuracy issues, but reliability drops off.

            Bevin, the adoption of the Beretta is interesting. At the time, one of the senior officers involved in the decision explained it this way. The traditional carry mode for the 1911 is “cocked and locked” (a round chambered, hammer cocked and safety engaged). As the officer put it, you only have to be moderately stupid to shoot yourself with a pistol carried in this condition. The Beretta on the other hand is a double action, with a hammer block and other intrinsic safeties built in. In the officer’s words you have to be a real idiot to shoot yourself with this weapon. Of course there is also the magazine capacity factor and you can carry more rounds (at the same weight) than you can with a .45 ACP. However, if I had been involved in the decision (and given no other choice than 9mm Parabellum), I would have undoubtedly pushed for a Sig-Sauer.

          • January 17, 2013 at 4:35 pm

            Dear Boothe,

            I don’t doubt you.

            I’m sure that what you say you encountered with 1911s was in fact what you encountered.

            But I have to say that I shot 1911s for years, and my experience was very, very different.

            I have owned several 1911s, all commercial versions made by Colt in the 70s.

            Not one of them ever shot groups anywhere as large as you encountered. The guns themselves were capable of shooting cloverleafs on the 25 yard range. The limitation was always me.

            Nor were all of them accurized. Some were straight out of the box.

            Just for kicks, my younger brother and I sometimes shot our 1911s at the 100 yard rifle range.

            We were actually able to get nearly half the shots from a seven round clip onto a 25 yard pistol target set up 100 yards away.

            We had to hold way high because of the bullet drop. The freakiest thing about it was watching the round arc way up in the spotting scope. The bullet was moving so slowly you could clearly see it describing the extreme arc. It cracked us up.

            Not sure what the muzzle velocity was. If memory serves me, they were 185 grain plain lead semi-wadcutter handloads. Probably only 900 fps.

            The groups were huge of course, but the gun was never the limiting factor.

          • January 17, 2013 at 5:04 pm

            Dear Boothe,

            Re: Beretta M9 vs. Colt 1911 variants

            Personally I’ve never been persuaded by the “But you can carry so much more ammo argument.”

            I would agree this argument would be sound when applied to a survival rifle in .22 LR. One used to obtain meat for the table. The amount of rimfire ammo one can carry relative to centerfire ammo is dramatically greater.

            But for a tactical firearm, whether a 9mm handgun or a 5.56 rifle, the diminished stopping power means one will be forced to fire multiple rounds to have the same effect, thereby negating the “more rounds per pound” advantage.

            A good example was the recent home invader shot five times with a .38 Special.

            A single .45 ACP probably might have done the trick. A double tap, almost certainly.

            Even better, as Jeff Cooper used to teach:

            “Two in the belly, one in the head. Guaranteed to leave ‘em dead.”

          • Boothe
            January 17, 2013 at 6:59 pm

            Bevin – I agree. The .45 I described that belonged to my dad was so sloppy as to almost be funny. It lived under the seat of his truck…with no holster…so you can imagine the shape it was in. But you could still hit a cinder block with it consistently at about 25 ft. I’ve owned and shot commercial 1911 variants that were reasonably accurate and reliable. So don’t get me wrong, I am indeed a big fan of the 1911. But just like people, each 1911 is unique. The real issue was that I hand fitted that Officer’s ACP barrel bushing so tight it was right on the verge of staying out of battery normally, figuring it would “wear in” after a few hundred rounds. I was young and naive. I’m more than willing to live with a little bigger group out of a 3.5″ carry piece at 25 yards nowadays.

            I don’t buy the “carry more rounds” argument either unless it is a survival situation. I suspect the theory was the Army could compensate for poor markmanship skills through increased magazine capacity. The whole M9 debacle was apparently over handgun markmanship and handling issues. I carried an S&W 3″ Model 629 (.44 Mag.) for several years, figuring if my first shot was placed properly a “double tap” really wouldn’t be necessary. Why waste powder and lead? ;)

            • January 17, 2013 at 7:09 pm

              I’ve never owned a 1911, chiefly because most (the ones I’ve seen) are way too big for realistic CC (for me, anyhow – I generally wear T-shirts/shorts in warm weather; never wear a jacket or dress clothes) and also because I am leery about carrying one of those things cocked and locked.

              I got a Sig 220 .45 and like it a lot. It’s almost small enough to CC with shorts/T-shirt and more to the point, it is a very accurate (and safe) gun. DO/SA and hammer de-cocking make it a gun I don’t fear carrying tucked inside my pants with a round in the tube – and the tube pointed at my tube!

          • Eightsouthman
            January 17, 2013 at 8:14 pm

            Boothe, you know better than to use that nasty Unique, ugh. Red Dot, Gren Dot, 630, anything but Unique.

            I figured out when very young, via a cheap gun, that there are two reasons for not buying a good gun to begin with, 1 You think there is such a thing as a good, cheap gun, you’re wrong 2 you can’t get it through your head there is no such thing as a good, cheap gun, they’re contradictory terms, good, cheap, DNC. I tried it, didn’t like it. Why buy junk(your life depends on this you know)when you can have a perfectly functioning gun for twice the price. yep, but I have spent countless hours reforming the sear, reforming the feed ramp, polishing the trigger, sear, polishing the upper and lower so the slide is slick, replacing the curved main spring housing with a straight one, replacing the hammer with a round CC style, removing rounds off the mainspring, doing more polishing, put down that gun after finally getting it where it does what you want when you want, picking up something like a BDA or a Glock USP Compact .45 and having everything right there, nothing to do except shoot it. I have taken rounds I reloaded and accidentally ran the bullet so far into the case you could cut your finger on the edge of the case and that BDA or any number of Sigs or HK would fee it no problem, same with too long rounds I made adjusting my crimper. I don’t mind buying a cheaply priced gun and doing all that reforming, polishing, parts replacement, finaggling with main springs, etc. and then having a good gun but why give retail money and still be looking all that in the face? Don’t get me wrong, I love to gunsmith, but would rather not when it comes to having a gun I can definitely say That gun has never failed to fire. Just the way I see it. I used to have a HK VP 70, kick me, just kick me, can’t afford one now.

          • Boothe
            January 17, 2013 at 9:27 pm

            Yeah Eric – I used to open carry and a cocked and locked 1911 variant oozes just the right amount of obvious bad-ass when you’re on the street in Richmond, Norfolk or Newport News. Of course nowadays I suspect that the local costumed doughnut feeders would probably “detain” you for doing that, being perfectly legal notwithstanding. Not so much back in the 80’s and 90’s though.

          • Boothe
            January 17, 2013 at 9:45 pm

            Yeah Eight, I know, I know, Unique wasn’t optimal. But I was poor back in my twenties and ran into a really good deal on a case of it (sigh). I was shooting a lot of .357 handloads back then and if you used a factory crimp die (or heavy taper crimp on the .45) it burned fairly clean. If you didn’t give the case a good crimp I honestly think it blew more unburnt flakes out the barrel than it burned! I’ve even had unburnt flakes of Unique get under the ejector of a S&W 686 and jam the cylinder making it nearly impossible to even open! I switched over to Bullseye and Winchester ball powders (they meter very well) and never looked back. So I’m with you Eight; Just say no to Unique!

          • January 17, 2013 at 10:26 pm

            Dear Boothe,

            “I’ve owned and shot commercial 1911 variants that were reasonably accurate and reliable. So don’t get me wrong, I am indeed a big fan of the 1911. But just like people, each 1911 is unique.”

            I imagine some of the old surplus specimens were as you noted, so sloppy as to send lead all over the place.

            The ones I had were Colt Mark IV Series 70 versions. They weren’t like that.

            I’ve never owned one of the recent model clones, such as the Springfield Armory “factory custom” versions. But I hear they are even more accurate, right out of the box.

            Good to know that unlike cars, guns have for the most part not been ruined by “safety regulations.”

          • Eightsouthman
            January 17, 2013 at 10:38 pm

            Boothe, how do you think I figured out Unique was no good? We were all young and broke at one point(I guess). I have half a pound that must be 20 years old and am still trying to figure out what to do with it. Maybe it’ll work for opening a lock. I did have fairly good luck on some really compressed shotshell loads with it, not too dirty. A friend(70 years old, been doing this a long time and shoots competitively with rifles, AR, M1, Garands)recently loaded some M1 rounds with it, had something nag at him wasn’t quite right( while he was shooting something made him look and clear his gun)so he stopped and found a double charge round(Unique, he still uses it, go figure, and knows it’s dirty) up his M1. Lucky, really. That’s a good enough reason to not use any powder you can double charge and one of the reasons I quit using it for handgun loads. I hate that chink, chink sound when you shake a round. I started using what they called the NRA load for .223 long ago, WW 748(don’t recall the amount)compressed load, no mistakes and it burns really clean and makes an AR sing.

          • January 17, 2013 at 10:50 pm

            Dear Eric,

            “I got a Sig 220 .45 and like it a lot.”

            Any of the Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks would have been a much better choice than the Beretta M9.

            I really can’t fathom what was going through the brass hats’ heads when they settled on the Beretta.

            On a separate note, I must confess I’m not a big fan of double action pistols. I hate the heavy first shot trigger pull followed by much lighter trigger pulls on subsequent shots — with a vengeance.

            I much prefer SA autos, with the light trigger pull on the first round and all follow up rounds.

            That’s why I’ve never owned a DA auto, and never will. It’s a personal issue.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 17, 2013 at 11:07 pm

            Bevin, you sound like me 25 years ago. I got into so many situations, pocket carry, console, recliner, etc. where I found my Hi-Power, Colt auto, etc. with one in the chamber and the safety in the off postion I got tired of it. Carrying in a #1 holster, one in the chamber, on safe with a strap across the firing pin isn’t always possible. Too many times I found guns with the safety pushed off, circumstances of getting in and having lots of stuff into a vehicle, dogs, in a chair somebody else might sit in, all sorts of things, I just felt unsafe unless it was in a holster so I got to know those types of guns and got good at operating them. I barely notice that hard first shot now and know the rest are going to be really easy trigger pull. That’s the reason I don’t have the HK VP 70 any longer, traded it off(and I knew better, that nagging feeling)for something else. I realized how bad I’d screwed up getting back to that same type of gun after 20 years. Price a VP now, geez.

    • January 13, 2013 at 5:32 am

      Dear SRV,

      IF – he’d had a gun (thankfully he did not, and of course would have if his intentions were as sinister as you seem to think) they are all dead as soon as she fires the first shot.

      Hmmm, I see.

      By all means, feel free to respond to home invasions according to your “logic.”

      But have enough respect for “diversity” and “the right to choose” to allow other individuals to protect their own lives, in their own homes, as they see fit.

    • MoT
      January 13, 2013 at 10:26 am

      When some asshole crowbars his way into your house why wouldn’t he choose to not also crowbar your skull should he desire so? My job on this planet is not to “second guess” the “intentions” of malevolent actors who choose to violate my castle. He broke in. He’s armed with a deadly weapon. His intentions are not benign from the get go. As far as I’m concerned he was “dead” the minute he crossed the threshold unbidden and unwelcome.

      • January 13, 2013 at 11:20 am

        Exactly.

        It’s just unfortunate she didn’t have sufficient firepower to end this career criminal’s career for good.

        A few pumps of Double 00 at point blank would have served nicely.

        • Boothe
          January 16, 2013 at 7:19 pm

          As much as I hate to differ with you Eric, #4 is just as effective as 00 buck point blank (and really at any “in home” distance) with much less over-penetration potential. A 12 ga. pump gun with #4 (or #4 buck if you really feel the need) is more than adequate leaving one really big nasty hole up close and gives you a lot more pellets per round. So on longer shots you don’t have to be quite as precise with shot placement. Number 4 buck will drop an Armadillo (even through that tough carapace) at >25 yds. with ease. And so, by the way, will a .22 mag. After seeing what a .22 mag will do to vermin and small game, I sure as hell don’t want to get shot with one.

          • Eightsouthman
            January 16, 2013 at 7:50 pm

            Boothe, I have to agree. It was over 20 years ago I changed from 00B for home protection to #4 buffered copper clad or chromed shot. Inside shots will be within 15ft normally and #6 works great at that range. The #4 is still large enough to carry some kinetic energy if it’s begging to disperse but that won’t be inside the 15′ range though.

            As far as .22’s go, it’s the number one killer of all time. Easy to take down a deer or anything else with a shot to the eye or ear. Now we have those rounds that fragment, just talking yesterday with a bunch of old farts on our own forum about this. We are speaking hypothetically since we’ve been reloading our whole lives and testing different shot and combos. I have somewhere a box of partitioned .22 LR that break into 5 parts and each with turn and tear a .38 cal size hole in gel. Dang if I can remember the name but now there are several rounds like this. I can tell you for sure a .22WMR will take down a deer with a well placed shot. They’ll take down a man and keep him down too.

            • January 16, 2013 at 8:24 pm

              Ask RFK…. .22 at close range. Sayonara, lights out.

          • January 16, 2013 at 8:26 pm

            Sounds like the ticket!

            I also like to alternate shells: 00 then a slug, then some more 00…

      • liberranter
        January 13, 2013 at 4:43 pm

        He broke in. He’s armed with a deadly weapon. His intentions are not benign from the get go. As far as I’m concerned he was “dead” the minute he crossed the threshold unbidden and unwelcome.

        BINGO, and enough said!

      • mithrandir
        January 13, 2013 at 5:28 pm

        Are you sure he did not have good intentions? Maybe a crowbar is a special greeting from his neck of the woods. ;) Around here it deserves “double 00″ buckshot or similar response.
        —————————————————–

        I think insult to injury would be if this attacker sued the lady for damages suffered while attacking her and her family in their home.

    • January 13, 2013 at 10:40 am

      SRV,

      She hit him five times. That’s bad aim? She got him dead to rights – before he could do anything to her. That is precisely, exactly the point here. He started the confrontation. She ended it. Favorably. Or would you have preferred otherwise?

      You seem to have a problem with this woman having used a gun to defend herself (your heavy emphasis on “IF” the intruder had a gun) and then you imply the intruder did not get what he deserved. After all, his intentions may not have been sinister.

      Is it your position that it’s up to the homeowner to divine the intentions of random strangers who physically bust into their home?

      Excuse me… are you here to rape me – or do you just want our TV?

      • liberranter
        January 13, 2013 at 4:44 pm

        This guy is a hit-and-run troll. He won’t be back.

      • Rich
        January 14, 2013 at 5:04 pm

        Eric, what SRV is really saying is that he would rather see her die than defend herself with a gun. Nice guy.

        • January 14, 2013 at 5:24 pm

          Hi Rich,

          That’s it, exactly. Guys like SRV value the life of a thug more than they do the right of a person to defend himself against one.

          • Clam
            January 15, 2013 at 2:17 pm

            Maybe the scum SRV a criminal thug(?). You can’t be sure. Or it could be a Liberal/Progressive tapeworm(?) or what is more commonly referred to as a cowardly criminal that votes for politicians to steal for it.

      • Tor Munkov
        January 14, 2013 at 5:38 pm

        That’s hilarious, Eric. Maybe he was there to take her to the number six dance.

        Blazing Saddles – Rock Ridge
        http://www.youtu.be/EM-lxsxeXBI

    • skunkbear
      January 13, 2013 at 2:53 pm

      SRV said: “IF – he’d had a gun (thankfully he did not, and of course would have if his intentions were as sinister as you seem to think) they are all dead as soon as she fires the first shot.”

      Fact of the matter srv, most rapes/assaults and murders are not done at gunpoint. Because he did not have a gun is no indication that his intentions were not sinister.

      And if he had a gun and she did not does not mean he would have let her and her kids live after he did whatever he wanted to do to them in the first place.

      And according to your logic no one should shoot at someone who breaks into their house lest the intruder might have a gun too. There is no way around your argument except that you are saying we must allow ourselves to be slaughtered without a fight.

      Go to england you coward.

    • skunkbear
      January 13, 2013 at 2:58 pm

      Please tell us srv, how do you protect your family? Do enlighten us “cowboys” as to how exactly we should act in the face of danger? Give us your holier than thou wisdom of defense?

    • Rich
      January 13, 2013 at 6:15 pm

      “She emptied her gun (clearly in a complete panic…”

      SRV, I don’t know where YOU learned armed defense, but in my class you were taught to shoot until the perp is no longer a threat.

      “IF – he’d had a gun (thankfully he did not, and of course would have if his intentions were as sinister as you seem to think)…”

      Oh, you know his intentions by what (you think) he is carrying? You would bet your life on that?

      “…they are all dead as soon as she fires the first shot.”

      They are? He’s getting incoming fire he wasn’t expecting and he now has the upper hand? With every sentence your post got more inane. This may come as a shock, but life isn’t scripted by Hollywood.

      • January 14, 2013 at 8:53 am

        Don’t tell Hollywood that last bit.

    • Ed
      January 14, 2013 at 12:13 pm

      “F – he’d had a gun (thankfully he did not, and of course would have if his intentions were as sinister as you seem to think) they are all dead as soon as she fires the first shot.

      Something you cowboys may want to consider next time you leave your family home alone with a firearm.”

      What benign intentions could a home invader have, whether he’s armed or not? The act of breaking into a house occupied by a mother with her children is sinister in and of itself. Had he been armed with a firearm, it’s safe to assume that they would be dead whether she fired or not.

      As to your condescending use of the term “cowboys”, maybe we’re more like cowboys than what you’d obviously like us to be. We can’t all be lickspittles like you, sitting at a desk and drawing a paycheck for trolling websites to push the agenda of your masters.

      Maybe you’d rather we leave our families home alone and unarmed. Why?

      • January 14, 2013 at 12:22 pm

        “32-year-old Paul Ali Slater had been released from jail in August after serving six months for simple battery and three counts of probation violation. Since 2008, this thief and burglar had been arrested seven times.”

        He bees a good boy who didden do nuffins!

      • vincent
        January 14, 2013 at 5:42 pm

        Crowbars are deadly weapons, and the Klovers know it. In the upscale Pacific Heights region of SF, a recently paroled felon dressed up as a utility employee and knocked on several doors, claiming there was a gas leak. One woman opened the door. She was bludgeoned to death with a crowbar, and the vermin tried to sexually assault her. The metrosexual Klover would conclude that the home invader did not have bad intentions, as he did not possess a gun.

        On another note, due to the number of stabbings in London, England is moving to ban sharp knives, as some of the socialist rulers do not see a need for anything beyond a butter knife.

        • Rooney
          January 14, 2013 at 7:26 pm

          Back in the day Coble Dairy used to include a double-ended wooden mini-spatula sort of tool to use with their ice cream cups.

          I thought of one in “tacticool”

          Gotta clean the keyboard now….

    • Tor Munkov
      January 14, 2013 at 12:54 pm

      Cowboys and their Cruelty. When will they be outlawed?

      Abu Dhabi Slaughterhouse is #1 in Middle East/North Africa.

    • Don Cooper
      January 16, 2013 at 8:30 pm

      Wow! Such irresponsible stupidity is dangerous. I’m just speechless.

      Does your wife know how much you hate her? You must to set her up to be a victim like that.

  28. dom
    January 13, 2013 at 1:46 am

    Anderson Cooper is Keeping Them Honest! *Cough” *Cough* *Throw up in mouth*

    http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/11/kth-exposing-newtown-conspiracy-theory/?hpt=hp_t2

    Here’s a News Flash for you CNN, Professor James Tracy isn’t the only one who believes there’s conspiracy.

    I don’t believe anything I hear on the major news stations anymore.

    • Alan A
      January 13, 2013 at 4:26 am

      I saw the stupidest grin on one father’s face who was interviewed. It wasn’t easily viewed, but body language is real, even if people on cell phones can’t understand. The father likely was an actor knowing this was staged. Cooper also showed that pic of the “dead” girl who was alive after the shooting. Interesting, I hope no one died, but I also hope the President can shut up about guns.

    • methylamine
      January 13, 2013 at 5:02 am

      There are several excellent compilations of the “parents” being interviewed on YouTube.

      The one you’re referring to–how could anyone believe him? Nobody with children can buy his act. 24 hours after your daughter was murdered, and you’re smiling? Not to mention the method-actor deep-breathing, “OK I’m getting into role now” exercise.

      And the other parents; the blond woman, sitting there relating long stories about her brave little girl and her leadership qualities…did anyone buy that crap?

      Either they’ve developed some very serious uber-ecstasy happy pills for MK-ULTRA, or these people are actors. I have a seven-year-old daughter, and I would be alternately raging and catatonic if she were killed.

      What’s the scoop out there–were ANY kids killed?

      Because I haven’t seen anything convincing; the breached security door, the internal video surveillance; the coroner who couldn’t tell us how many boys vs. girls were killed; the on-again, off-again Bushmaster; just Adam Lanza, then him and two guys, then him, two guys, and a guy in the woods, now back to just Adam Lanza.

      Stinks. To. High. Heaven.

      • January 13, 2013 at 5:27 am

        Dear meth,

        Not to mention the method-actor deep-breathing, “OK I’m getting into role now” exercise.

        LMAO!

        A lot of my friends in LA were struggling actors. I know that one!

        • methylamine
          January 13, 2013 at 5:36 am

          Also LMAO–you’ve actually seen it.

          I mean, this guy is so bad he wouldn’t have made the cut in my high school drama troupe.

          And who the fuck wrote his dialog?

          It is so totally over the top, I can’t help but think it’s another one of the Elite’s little Jokers–they like to insert macabre humor into their rituals to highlight the screwing they’re giving the victims.

          The Most Dangerous Book In the World has several excellent insights into this game. It’s part of their “magick” and occult rituals.

          • January 13, 2013 at 5:40 am

            Dear meth,

            But he was in the Drama Club.

            He played Juliette in Romeo and Juliette.

          • MoT
            January 13, 2013 at 10:07 am

            Every major “incident” over the years is a staged blood sacrifice. Full of hidden, yet in plain sight, ritual and meaning. Everything from the day it’s carried out to the manner in which it’s done. Twisted and certainly not random. We’re dealing with luciferian actors who haven’t any problem whatsoever in offering up YOU and YOURS on their altars.

            • January 13, 2013 at 11:21 am

              Someone else – Meth, maybe – mentioned that “Sandy Hook” was one of Bane’s targets in the recent Batman movie. I haven’t seen it, but am very curious to find out whether this is in fact true. Anyone care to chime in?

          • methylamine
            January 13, 2013 at 7:23 pm

            @Eric–

            Yep; I heard about the marketing materials sent to Dark Knight’s prime demographic on Alex Jones; it contained references to a “Strike Zone” and mentioned Sandy Hook for “Bane’s Army”.

            There’s more in Jon Rappaport’s article here at Natural News; he describes the unbelievable “coincidences” at succinctly.

            Whatever we do or don’t believe, the Elites are obsessed with the occult and “magick”. They always “telegraph” their moves, often years in advance. There are so many foreshadowings of 9/11–which is why Alex Jones called it sometime in June or July of 2001.

            “The Most Dangerous Book in the World” explains their numerological games, and their significance. I was ready to dismiss it when I heard about it; but the coincidences are simply impossible.

      • Tinsley Grey Sammons
        January 13, 2013 at 1:33 pm

        “I have a seven-year-old daughter, and I would be alternately raging and catatonic if she were killed.”

        And had I the means to do so, I would deliver her killer to you to dispose of as you see fit.

        tgsam

        • liberranter
          January 13, 2013 at 4:41 pm

          Notwithstanding the obvious fact that they’re pre-programmed to “self-terminate” after committing their acts of murder, maybe the possibility of “survivor’s justice” is why so many of these shooters off themselves.

        • methylamine
          January 14, 2013 at 5:22 am

          Thank you, TGS.

          I’d be grateful for the assistance.

          That person would never be safe again, as long as he lived.

          In fact I think the old concepts of small-town justice should be revived; for example, if the town drunk beat his wife, the church elders would “intervene”. The second time, you wouldn’t hear from him again.

          Cheap, effective–and community-minded. What’s not to like?

          • January 14, 2013 at 10:27 am

            There’s a lot to like about “community justice,” though it, too, has its downsides. I very much like the idea, for instance, of being judged by one’s actual peers; and of the Andy Griffith-type of peace officer who knows ol’ so and so is harmless and just needs to sober up. On the other hand, small towns can be close-minded and malicious – and there’s also Andy’s opposite number, the not-so-amiable cop who is the town’s small-scale Mussolini.

          • methylamine
            January 14, 2013 at 4:03 pm

            @Eric–

            Yeah, plenty of downside. Two things though–first, you could implement the same mode of justice for the mini-Mussolini. Second, you could vote with your feet; easier to escape one bad town than the whole US!

          • Gil
            January 16, 2013 at 2:40 am

            Gee, Methyl, what happened to the “why should I have to move and change my livelihood to please some jerk?”CloverClover

          • methylamine
            January 16, 2013 at 4:43 am

            Aw Gil, don’t be sad.

            I have a mind; I use it sometimes to re-evaluate ideas it has.

            But don’t worry–just for you, I’d implement the mini-Mussolini treatment.

    • BrentP
      January 13, 2013 at 10:03 pm

      The mainstream news media only has itself to blame. It has for years done nothing but repeat what the government officially reports. The media drops parts of the narrative without explanation when the government’s official version doesn’t address them. It doesn’t investigate. It does not make any attempt to explain things from multiple points of view. It’s one narrative on all networks, in all papers. The uniformity is remarkable. It’s been doing this for decades. Anyone who asks what happened to these dropped portions of the narrative or asks simple questions is considered a ‘conspiracy theorist’. Then the media uses the narrative to push for new powers for the government.

      It becomes clear as day once a person turns off the tv for awhile and then decides to watch the news. It’s clear from what the news cycle stays on for months and months and what is barely reported. It is the choices that the media makes that says more than anything.

      As to this event in particular, why doesn’t the mainstream media investigate these FDA approved prescription drugs that these mass shooters are practically always if not always on or had just stopped? Why? The know side effects including lashing out violently. Why does the media go for government press releases instead of investigating what eye witnesses report?

      There is ‘conspiracy theory’ because the media does not do its job. It is left to look like nothing more than a tool to manipulate and shape public opinion.

      As to the people on TV, either actors or well prepped real people doing what TV demands of them. Also keep in mind how the general population is conditioned these days. They could very well be the parents, but they are playing the role that this society demands of them. That’s what most people do in this society, they play a role. Projecting ourselves on to them is foolish IMO. Most of us here would tell the TV people to pound sand. But the average clover? The average clover would do as society demands and go on TV. Would smile and put on an act.

      The TV news is the original reality TV and is about as real as any reality TV.

      • January 13, 2013 at 10:36 pm

        Dear Brent,

        the media does not do its job. It is left to look like nothing more than a tool to manipulate and shape public opinion.

        Very well said indeed.

        Interestingly enough, even hardline leftists have complained about this.

        “The U.S. major media and much of the minor media are not free and independent, as they claim. They are not the watchdog of democracy but the lapdog of the national security state. They help reverse the roles of victims and victimizers, warmongers and peacekeepers, reactionaries and reformers. The first atrocity, the first war crime committed in any war of aggression by the aggressors is against the truth.”
        – Michael Parenti, political scientist, from his essay “The Media and their Atrocities”

        http://michaelparentiblog.blogspot.tw/p/quotations.html

        He is a hardline leftist. So obviously we are not going to agree with him across the board. But interestingly enough, he has many of the same criticisms of the MSM as we libertarians do. I find some of his insights useful, on a selective basis.

        The truth is the truth, no matter who speaks it.

        • January 13, 2013 at 10:46 pm

          Here’s why: The MSM is owned by corporatist interests and so acts in the interests of the corporatocracy.

          I can speak to this from direct personal knowledge. You do not get hired – or you will be fired – if you don’t play the game.

          It is also why the Internet and alternative media represent such a fearsome threat to the MSM.

  29. Tor Munkov
    January 12, 2013 at 9:36 pm

    sic erat scriptum: Oganville ==s/b=-> Loganville(Outer ATL subrb)

    Husband Donnie’s 911 Call “~Pigs in 30 Minutes or its free”
    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/dramatic-911-call-released-in-intruder-shooting/nTrLK/

    ““Just remember everything that I showed you, everything that I taught you, alright?” Donnie Herman tells his wife Melinda on the 911 tape.”

    • liberranter
      January 13, 2013 at 2:01 am

      Donnie Herman sure sounds like he’s smarter than the average bear. That being the case, one would think that, having “showed” and “taught” his wife the skills and actions that ultimately ensured her their kids’ safety and survival, Donnie would have also been smart enough to have instinctively known -and to have taught his wife- something else that should have been second nature and one of Amerikan survival’s ironclad, immutable rules: never, never, never, EVER call 9-1-1 – FOR ANY REASON!

      • Tor Munkov
        January 14, 2013 at 4:58 am

        Excellent point, liberranter! Good catch, I missed that.

        Never Never Never Talk to Cops Song
        http://www.youtu.be/I3mVTTBcswk

      • Eightsouthman
        January 14, 2013 at 1:44 pm

        Libberanter, you hit the nail on the head. I may be charged with obstruction of justice due to a criminal investigation but I won’t be caught with a dead perp in my house. The vehicle, if one is used, can be taken somewhere and set on fire, leave no DNA. The perp can be buried out back or hauled to another location and BURNED, never leave DNA. Won’t be 911 calls from my house. Remove perps clothes and burn them, chop perp or perps up making sure to destroy any dental work then feed to the hogs. Wish I still had that huge cooking pot I left in a move, shades of Mandingo. Wish my friens were still in the commercial hog business. They had a Huge grinder.

        • liberranter
          January 14, 2013 at 5:39 pm

          Yup, “The Three ‘SHs':” shoot, shovel, and shut up.

        • Gil
          January 16, 2013 at 2:42 am

          Advocating blatant killing, hiding a body and destroying evidence? Cause anyone do to this to spend their rest of their life behind bars?Clover

          • Boothe
            January 16, 2013 at 3:57 pm

            Oh c’mon Gil. Every Clover knows “it’s only illegal if you get caught.” Your hypocritical ilk does it all the time; from “speeding” and lane blocking, to evading taxes and advocating a police state where costumed “official” actors assault, maim, torture and murder publicly with impunity. Take away the citizens’ guns and that situation certainly won’t improve. Y’all have proven that.

            So, let me ask you: How’s the home invasion situation “down under” now that your countrymen have been disarmed? How’s your violent crime rate Mr. Aussie Gil? The numbers are in mate, and the only people safer in Australia now are your cops and politicians.

            Will Grigg is right; there is no situation so bad or human condition so tragic that the police can’t make it worse. Gil you are so pathetic and delusional I can’t decide if you’re really scary or merely a blundering buffoon. What branch of the government do you work for (or at least receive a check from) Gil?

  30. ekrampitzjr
    January 12, 2013 at 7:39 pm

    Now Ms. Herman needs to look out, as she might be the subject of a civil suit from the perp or his family. Georgia law supposedly prohibits such suits, but so does California law, yet Samuel Cutrufelli sued 90–year-old Jay Leone for shooting him after he shot Leone after breaking into Leone’s house. The California law passed in 1985 after another such incident and lawsuit.

    If Paul Slater or his family file against her, she would still be out thousands of dollars in legal fees before a judge invokes the law to dismiss the suit. All he has to claim is that she used excessive force or used her gun negligently, etc., to get a shyster to take his case. Lawsuits cannot generally be preempted. Now the real risk begins for the Hermans.

    • liberranter
      January 12, 2013 at 9:03 pm

      Now Ms. Herman needs to look out, as she might be the subject of a civil suit from the perp or his family.

      SPOT ON! Mrs. Herman should have remembered a simple yet essentail rule to which there are NO exceptions:

      When you pump a perp full of lead, you make sure that he’s dead!

      • MoT
        January 13, 2013 at 12:41 am

        I remember the old rule in Texas was that if someone was at your door and threatening you that you shot him and then dragged his ass into the house. Your defense was that you feared for your life. As my dad used to say when he bought his .357 “I don’t want the SOB to come back and sue me”.

        • methylamine
          January 13, 2013 at 6:00 pm

          My CHL instructor warned us in no uncertain terms that shooting someone in your house–even a justified homicide of an armed thief–was likely to cost you about $100,000 in lawyer’s fees defending against the inevitable civil suits. He said their scumbag crack-head common-law wife would sue, or their family.

          Of course it won’t always happen; but it’s a real possibility.

          He did hint that one’s homeowner’s insurance is liable for the cost.

          I haven’t checked it all out in detail; it doesn’t matter, I’ll worry about that AFTER I’ve saved my family from the miscreant.

          Although: it might pay to check one’s insurance, and add a liability rider for that…

          • chiph
            January 13, 2013 at 10:10 pm

            This is why you have an umbrella policy. You can get a couple of million dollars in coverage for less than $300 a year.

            Beats paying a mortgage-sized check to your lawyer each month.

          • MoT
            January 14, 2013 at 3:24 am

            Of course you have to remember I said the dirt bag was dead!

          • Eightsouthman
            January 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm

            Meth, I’m not sure how to work this but you want to have that good policy somewhere besides where your small policy is. A lawyer will find you aren’t worth going after and turn the case down but not with that policy staring him in the face. It might be prudent to speak with your insurance agen and see how that better policy could be hidden.

            Chiph, what you wrote:Beats paying a mortgage-sized check to your lawyer each month. is a bit misleading. Lawyers aren’t bankers and as such, don’t care to defend you without money up front, no matter the circumstances. You Might be able to get a bank loan and pay it out to handle lawyer fees but you must have collateral in order to do that. It’s the reason so many are simply “ruined” by suits against them. It’s not a fair system by any means.

          • Boothe
            January 14, 2013 at 6:15 pm

            Methyl, when my (ex-)wife shot the serial rapist, my cousin (the county investigator) wanted to charge her and take her in front of a Grand Jury. Not so they could prosecute, but because he knew the indictment would result in the shooting being justifed and hence take the wind out of the sails of a potential civil suit. Once we found out the scum-bag’s family were (at least nominally) decent hard-wirking upright folks that even volunteered to pay for her counselling, that wasn’t necessary. That occurred in the Communistwealth of Virginia, so things may and probably are different in your neck of the woods. So I would consult with a good shyster prior to taking this course of action. But it may be an option should the worst happen.

      • January 14, 2013 at 3:26 pm

        Dear liberranter,

        When you pump a perp full of lead, you make sure that he’s dead!

        Melinda Herman was probably using a double action six shot .38 Special revolver. She fired six rounds and hit the home invader five times.

        I say “probably” because the news reports, mostly written by hoplophobe liberal reporters, fail to specify the make or model of handgun.

        One lesson we can take away from this however, is that big bore revolver guru Elmer Keith and big bore pistol guru Jeff Cooper were right. Bullet diameter and bullet weight are the two most important factors in handgun stopping power.

        Bullet velocity is far less important, because handgun bullets, unlike rifle bullets, travel too slowly to create hydrostatic shock. Pistol bullets stop assailants by creating large wound channels, not by means of hydrostatic shock.

        In short, Melinda Herman should have been using a .44 Special, 44 Magnum, or .45 ACP, instead of a .38 Special. The home invader would not be alive to sue her today.

        • BrentP
          January 14, 2013 at 4:05 pm

          Harry Callahan: A 357 magnum is a good weapon, but I’ve seen 38’s bounce off of windshieds. No good in a city like this.

          Just what your post reminded me of Bevin.

          • January 14, 2013 at 5:26 pm

            I’ve always wanted to add an Automag .44 to my collection!

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:30 am

            Dear Brent,

            First time ever I’ve been mentioned, however obliquely, in the same breath as Dirty Harry!

            Thanks for that Brent!

            The Dirty Harry films were among my favorites.

            Also the Death Wish films with Charles Bronson. The first was the best. The sequels were pretty “B movie-ish.”

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:38 am

            Dear Eric,

            Charles Bronson, aka “Paul Kersey,” the architect turned vigilante in “Death Wish 3″ used an Automag .44.

            So Clint Eastwood in “Sudden Impact.”

            I read that it wasn’t that good a gun though. No first hand experience. Just what I read back then.

            • January 15, 2013 at 11:00 am

              IIRC, the Automag used a rifle-style bolt and was not especially well-made or reliable. However, neither were 1970 E Body Mopars!

              I’d love to have both in my collection….

        • MoT
          January 14, 2013 at 4:14 pm

          It was a 38. Funny because when I saw a report at first the talking head claimed it was a “36”. Just reading off the teleprompter I guess.

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:32 am

            Dear MoT,

            Gotta laugh at the hoplophobic pressitudes.

            Some of them actually think the entire cartridge emerges from the barrel, and not just the bullet.

        • January 14, 2013 at 6:19 pm

          Bevin, you are overlooking something here. You men can handle the big guns, most likely, but I am a small woman, and I train lots of women to shoot. Many of them simply cannot CONTROL a large handgun, no matter how hard they try.

          The best gun for anyone is the largest caliber they can reliably CONTROL, and shot placement is much more important than bullet size in that case. A solid hit with a .22lr will abort most attacks… a miss with anything is usually a complete waste of time.

          Training, a fighting spirit and will to live, serious practice, and practice under stress… those are all more important than the mere size of the bullet.

          • MoT
            January 14, 2013 at 7:21 pm

            Proper control of the tool that you can manage will get the job done.

          • Bill Jones
            January 15, 2013 at 1:32 am

            Mama, I’m 6’4″+ and (far too fast) approaching 250 lb.

            Big is good. Small and frequent is good too however. Just do what works and practice.

            • January 15, 2013 at 1:38 am

              Here’s a little anecdote:

              The Browning Hi-Power got its name not from the stopping power of the 9 mm round, but from the Hi-Power’s high-capacity magazine, which contains more “throw weight” in total than the typical 8-9 round single stack .45 pistol does!

          • skunkbear
            January 15, 2013 at 1:48 am

            MamaLiberty said:

            “Training, a fighting spirit and will to live, serious practice, and practice under stress…”

            Excellent understanding of what is meant by “gun-fu”. Weaponcraft is like any other martial art: it is the state of mind that matters most. And the state of mind is created and disciplined through practice, practice, practice.

            As for caliber, you are also correct that control is of great importance. But I would argue that many people can shoot a higher caliber than they originally think. I too have trained women (and some really wimpy guys) and was able to get them to shoot bigger guns than they thought they could handle.

            I live by the rule if it does not start with a 4, do not buy it, with the exception of the .357 magnum. I am a diehard .45 ACP man myself (Glock 21).

            But if someone cannot handle it then, yes they need to go with what they are most comfortable with. But then they should also adjust their ammo to something with better stopping power: JHP, defensive shotgun shells, etc. And capacity matters too.

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:24 am

            Dear MamaLiberty,

            I don’t disagree.

            In isolation, what I said stands, ballistically.

            If the shooter is physically large enough, then what I said holds. Bigger is better.

            But as you rightly point out, and as gun rights champions such as you and I know full well, guns do not shoot themselves.

            The shooter is also part of the equation. if the shooter is diminutive in stature, the optimum solution may be to go to a smaller, lighter recoiling caliber.

            It is surely better to actually hit the home invader with a 9mm slug, than to miss him (or her) with a .45 ACP!

          • Qwibqwib
            February 1, 2013 at 12:38 am

            My wife is 5’5″ and 90 Pounds and her favorite pistol is a 1911 .45 ACP She can hit with it better than me. I put a new SS target barrel on it in the hopes that I could be more accurate with it. She became more accurate, and I did not. The size and weight of this pistol do not bother her at all. She throws that thing around like it is a cap gun! Conceal carry, Quick draw and everything…

            I am 6′ tall and ~200 Pounds and my favorite pistol is an UZI Baby Eagle in 9mm. I can hit with this small frame pistol, anything, every time. I just carry 20 round mags to make up for the small bullet.

            Go figure…

        • Qwibqwib
          February 1, 2013 at 12:43 am

          I have tried many different pistols. I have small, fat hands. My wife has long, skinny hands. I can barely fit the .45 in my hand. She can wrap her hands around that big frame. Hand size and frame size, IMHO, are key to choosing a pistol.

    • January 12, 2013 at 10:50 pm

      Agreed –

      She should have put him down. For good.

      “I was in fear of my life. I’m very shaken up. I can’t talk now.” Repeat. Say nothing else.

      • methylamine
        January 13, 2013 at 4:54 am

        The story I heard was she hit five shots out of six–in his face and neck–with a .38 revolver.

        How the hell did he survive? Unless the report was inaccurate.

        • skunkbear
          January 13, 2013 at 2:32 pm

          This case makes for an excellent argument as to “why does anyone need a high capacity gun?” She was fortunate it was only one intruder. Many home invasions have two or more attackers.

          • methylamine
            January 13, 2013 at 7:15 pm

            Yes, excellent point! Makes me grateful I bought a bunch of 15-round extended mags for the Glocks before they became more rare than Osmium.

            Again though–the “useful idiots” on the gun-grabbing side might understand this logic.

            But the REAL players–from Piers Morgan on up through his handlers to the roughly 6,000 Elites–already understand the point; and it’s beside the point. They just want the weapons–ALL of them.

            This unbelievably excellent Mishin article in Pravda lays out the history we weren’t taught in school. *Our* government funded the Bolshevik revolution; yeah, we paid for Lenin’s revolution. The same globalist banksters* that funded that communist takeover are now running the identical program here.

            Mishin’s impassioned plea–“Americans, don’t let them take your guns”–is amazing reading; especially considering the source…I mean, who among us ever thought that Pravda would provide succor to an anti-communist American resistance?

            Bizarro world.

            * JP Morgan et al. sent $25 million in gold to fund the 1917 overthrow in Russia

          • skunkbear
            January 15, 2013 at 2:05 am

            Meth is correct, “*Our* government funded the Bolshevik revolution; yeah, we paid for Lenin’s revolution. The same globalist banksters* that funded that communist takeover are now running the identical program here.”

            A fascinating bit of history on this is the little known history of a detachment of US Marines sent into Russia during the revolution. John Toland makes account of it briefly in his excellent “No Man’s Land”. It is a subject I have been wanting to investigate much further but I always seem to have too many irons in the fire.

            I find it interesting that the marines are always self promoting their history but I bet you there are maybe only a handful of jarheads who know about this little adventure.

            And, many do not know that Marx was also financed by TPTB.

    • Strder55
      January 14, 2013 at 10:04 am

      Since I don’t live in GA I can’t be 100% certain, but I am moderately certain it has a “castle doctrine” that immunizes victims of home invasions who wound or kill the invaders from civil liability. If so, there will be no “ghetto lottery” for Slater or his scumbag family.

      BTW, Eric, the town is Loganville.

      BTW #2, if Obama had a son it would look just like Slater.

      • ekrampitzjr
        January 14, 2013 at 10:39 pm

        You are broadly correct. The problem is that the law, like all such laws, pertains to disposition of such a suit after it is filed. You can’t stop someone from suing you in the first place, as desirable as that might be.

        Here’s why. The body of the US Constitution has a clause that essentially prohibits laws against simply not allowing a civil suit in the first place because of abuses by King George III’s minions before the American Revolution, so a lawsuit generally cannot be preempted. Filing it must be allowed, and then after it goes to court can it be dismissed. By that point, the homeowner being sued is still out big bucks for legal representation, even though the case was considered meritless under the law once filed.

        So Slater can still file suit. He won’t win, and his case will be dismissed, but he can still cost the Hermans many thousands of dollars in legal fees simply to be a dick about it. Again, refer to the California case in my first post. The perp was found guilty of his crime just days after filing suit, but the suit continues—despite a California law similar in principle to that of Georgia.

        We desperately need tort reform. But one obvious key element that many would propose, which would be to forbid filing certain types of civil suits in the first place, is unconstitutional. Other solutions are needed to protect lawabiding citizens from predatory legal action by perps who committed crimes against them.

        • ozymandias
          January 14, 2013 at 11:39 pm

          tort reform? de-cartelization……

          • Tor Munkov
            January 23, 2013 at 12:23 pm

            Dear ozy,

            (about bonding in common cause) Sparta, Athens, Crete never pretended anything, they went into battle and then went back to their regions.

            What I have in mind is Greek city-states, Swiss Cantons, New World Sailing Vessels, all banding together in common cause, and then disbanding when the existential threat abates.

            There are many arising in a common cause. We are at the dawn of a new age, where the Flat Earth Hegemons will again be left behind, much like the European Dynasties were after the discovery of the New World.

            Voluntaryists, Deontology Libertarians, Left Libertarians, Consequentialist Libertarians, Sovereigns, Constitutionalists, Anti-Consumptionists, Anti-Statist, Anti-War, Market Anarchists. We all have a common enemy and can mutually tolerate each other, while all having no tolerance for the state.

            Honduras Free Island cities, Pirate Party Int., Sea Steads, Kalispell, Flathead, Estancia Cafayate, Moorish Sovereigns, Freemen on the land, Free State Project, Culture Jammers, Cybercitizens, Anonymous, Roma, Preppers, Occupy, Homeless Camps, Drug Subcultures, Indigenous Cultures, Marginalized Minorities.

            We are not monists. There is no one right way to run a revolution. There are only oppressed people and groups beyond counting, ready to organize and fight for something better, for something that is human and with dignity.

  31. can't happen here? think again
    January 12, 2013 at 5:41 pm

    Comrades the benevolent omnipotent mommygov will keep you safe at all times. Emperor Hussein the Immaculate will be able to see if you are not safe and swoop in to save the day via his magic scepter. You see Comrade Chairman Hussein the Immaculate loves you and only wants to keep you safe and warm. Give up some more rights and submit to another imperial decree and a glorious moonbeam and rainbow unicorns utopia will commence. What do you mean you don’t believe it? Just drink the damn kool-aid comrade it is for the good of the collective who also love you and want to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with you comrade. Just give up your gun or we’ll say your mentally ill. This is the great leap forward comrade don’t be a bitter clinger.

    • Capn Mike
      January 14, 2013 at 2:21 pm

      LOL!!!

  32. January 12, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    The main point, I think, is that the fundamental concept at the base of a free society (liberal in the classical, not Obamian sense) is that what is forbidden to the individual may not be permitted to the state. Therefore, a society in which the police or the armed forces are the only entities which are allowed to have weapons is not a liberal (free) society. I think that was what the person who wrote the 2nd Amendment had in mind. One doesn’t have to be a libertarian to see that, but too many people are willing to delegate to a police force, empowered by the democratic state, their ability to make moral choices.

    • Tinsley Grey Sammons
      January 13, 2013 at 1:45 pm

      *snip* what is forbidden to the individual may not be permitted to the state. *snip*

      That point should be hammered home until it is understood by each and every Citizen.

      tgsam

      • Chris
        January 14, 2013 at 9:18 pm

        I found a different way to phrase it.
        That which is forbidden to the individual is forbidden to the individual even if you’re “just following orders.”
        In other words, no exceptions to the rules. The third rule is:
        Thou shalt not steal. (Including theft of a life or theft of use of you body, such as rape)
        The fourth rule is:
        If you break the third rule you are a criminal.
        [For rules 1 and 2 see Fight Club]

        • rEVOLutionary
          January 14, 2013 at 10:14 pm

          What you are saying is true, but there is more to it than that.
          If I don’t have the right to own an M4 or BAR, neither does the government. If I don’t have the right to own an M1A1 or F16, neither does the government.
          If I don’t have the right to own atomic weapons, then neither does the government. No one has that right, because it is impossible to use without initiating violence against the innocent.

    • methylamine
      January 13, 2013 at 5:57 pm

      Absolutely–the principle is so clear:

      How can you delegate a right to someone else you yourself don’t possess?

      It’s a cross-cut on the NAP. If I can’t steal, I can’t delegate stealing to the IRS. If I can’t invade your house looking for pot, I can’t pay the cops to do it either.

      • Don Cooper
        January 14, 2013 at 7:22 pm

        Yup! If it’s wrong for me to violate your rights, then it’s also wrong for me and my posse of friends to violate your rights. The fact that me and my posse have given ourselves the legal authority to violate your rights, still makes it wrong.

        The only true authority we have is the authority of force which we impose with fear and superior fire power.

  33. Brandonjin
    January 12, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    ‘Interestingly, the logic of Obama, et al – “if it saves even one life” – never applies consistently.’

    Awesome! Because, as we know, saving the maximum number of lives possible is the goal, right?! I’ll be using this as basis in my some of my discussions now. Excellent point.

    By the way, I think calling police the “Krispy Kreme Crew” may be hurtful to Krispy Kreme employees ;P

    • Trebor
      January 14, 2013 at 2:54 pm

      If BHO was truly interested in “if it saves even one life” he would have ordered all of our military, corporate militia and state department employees home in January of 2008.

    • vincent
      January 14, 2013 at 4:49 pm

      Brandonjin–The real Krisy Kreme Krew will never taze us, never club us, never handcuff my kids and threaten to take them to CPS. never shoot my irish setter, and never arbitrarily confiscates our legally owned firearms. They are courteous and hard working folks. They won’t get a pension or double overtime, sadly.

      On the other hand, the cops….

      If any of the Nordstorm employees had an overdue traffic ticket, a SWAT team would have busted in with MP5s and Glocks, and no one would have escaped.

  34. Hannibal
    January 12, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    Message to COngress and White House:

    I demand you vote against and oppose ANY infringements of the Second
    Amendment. Do not dishonor but instead affirm and uphold your Oath of Office…
    “to defend and protect the US Constitution against all enemies, foreign and
    DOMESTIC”.

    Self defense of one’s life and property is a natural and unalienable birth right.

    https://www.popvox.com/home

  35. mikehell
    January 12, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Lost in this whole so-called discussion about gun rights is the plain fact that you just laid out, Eric: the cops are not just useless but *worse* than useless because they *pretend* to be our protectors when they obviously are not. Mundanes thus cultivate a false sense of security that leaves them vulnerable to vicious predators. Sadly, the truth is that most individuals do not want to accept responsibility for their own safety. They’d much prefer to live as if the men in costume could take care of them, even if they genuinely wanted to, which they clearly do not.

    Slightly off topic. Has anyone here considered using a .410 pump action as a home security weapon? I was looking at a few models online last night and they do have some attractive features: compact and light weight; low recoil; cheap ammo per shell (but maybe not so cheap per lb ft of kinetic energy?). Any thoughts?

    • January 12, 2013 at 2:08 pm

      That’s exactly it, Mike – and it’s imperative to continue hammering away at it, until the cow-heads finally get it.

      On the 410:

      At close range, if you get the bastard in the face, it’ll certainly do the job.

      But I personally prefer a 12 gauge.

      The Mossberg Persuader, for instance.

      • mikehell
        January 12, 2013 at 2:19 pm

        There are now “self defense” loads made for the .410 which may be very effective. Tiny Sabot slugs, discs, 000 pellets or a combo thereof. Nowhere near as powerful as a 12 gauge for sure but the difference in portability may make the .410 a more practical weapon. And besides, they are much cheaper than even an S&W .38!

        • January 12, 2013 at 3:50 pm

          Have you seen the Taurus Judge?

          That is a tempting unit!

          • BrentP
            January 12, 2013 at 4:13 pm

            I looked into it, and like most things trying to be more than one thing the good part is that it does more than one thing, not how well it does those things.

          • Giuseppe Crowe
            January 16, 2013 at 11:43 pm

            I have a friend who has a judge. It was marketed originally as an anti-carjacking firearm, and it would presumably be devastatingly effective in that role. That said, you still have the problem of collateral damage. I’ve shot it a few times and it’s not something I’d really consider for my purposes. As always, YMMV and OALA, EHOATAS.

          • methylamine
            January 17, 2013 at 2:36 pm

            Mr. Crowe,

            I thought I was a master of acronyms but OALA and EHOATAS defeat me.

            What are they?

          • Giuseppe Crowe
            January 25, 2013 at 2:14 pm

            Methylamine, et al,

            OALA, EHOATAS means Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink…….

      • January 13, 2013 at 12:52 am

        Dear Eric,

        The only shotgun gauge worth considering is the 12 gauge.

        Choosing smaller gauges for the sake of softer recoil is not a good idea. Better to simply use a smaller powder charge in the 12.

        One of the great things about shotguns is that one has enormous flexibility in adjusting both the shot loads and the powder charges.

        Smaller gauges, even the 20, the best of the smaller gauges, really aren’t necessary. They’re superfluous.

        • January 13, 2013 at 11:37 am

          Morning, Bevin!

          Agree on the 12 gauge. It’s the handheld equivalent of 15-inch naval artillery.

          If, that is, your hands can handle it!

          • January 13, 2013 at 1:23 pm

            Dear Eric,

            Yup!

            Here’s what one gun writer says about the advantages of the 12 over the smaller gauges.

            In terms of sales, the 12 is the 800 pound gorilla of shotgun gauges. It accounts for about half of all shells and guns sold. The 10, 16, 20, 28, and .410 divide the other half.

            Naturally, 12 gauge shells are sold virtually everywhere ammunition is available, and they are often discounted.

            Winchester, for example, lists ten different AA Target loads in 12 gauge, but only three in 20 gauge, one in 28 gauge, and one in .410 bore.

            http://www.chuckhawks.com/12gauge.htm

            This and a host of other reasons make the 12 the only choice.

        • skunkbear
          January 13, 2013 at 2:20 pm

          I am a Mossberg man myself and in 12 gauge only. It can be a handful but if you are in a position to have to use it your adrenalin will over ride the recoil effects.

          The .410 with these new defense loads should be considered though if you are living in a an apartment or such. The idea is you do not want to blast through the wall into the neighbor’s apartment or into your own kid’s bedrooms etc.

          Every family should have plans for home defense with everyone knowing fields of fire, retreat avenues etc.

          I have met many great shots but when I ask them if they have a home defense plan they find themselves unaware.

          Plan and train, plan and train.

          • Giuseppe Crowe
            January 14, 2013 at 7:02 pm

            There are considerations when one chooses a home defense shotgun load. I would choose probably #6 shot to #8 shot in a 12 gauge load simply because buckshot has the danger of penetrating sheetrock and producing collateral damage that would give the tyrants more excuses. The cops don’t care about such issues but we, the ethical, really must care. Onward.

        • January 14, 2013 at 2:59 pm

          Get a 12 gauge! .410 ammo is scarce compared to the 12 and more expensive. You have less options on loads and it is a pipsqueak in comparison.

          • January 15, 2013 at 1:34 am

            Dear Greg,

            Exactly.

            The popularity of the 12 makes the supply and demand equation a foregone conclusion in terms of dollars and cents, not to mention options in factory loads.

            Also, if you handload, you can always create light recoiling loads tailored to your ability to handle recoil.

            I’m a semi-auto shotgun afficionado myself. So too light a load may not cycle. But most people here were looking at pumps, so no problem.

          • Hot Rod
            January 15, 2013 at 7:48 am

            Well I just thought we would turn on the TV after about a 3 months of it sitting there collecting dust. Lets see about 60 channels of crap. But you know passing through the channels something really occured to me. And when a guy doesn’t watch TV very often I think you can see a hidden message much clearer. Like you know if you never watch a sitcom for 5 years and try to watch one you’ll find you won’t laugh at any of the punch lines because they aren’t that funny and you aren’t programmed to think it so.

            But again, all the channels were showing guns. guns being used by bad guys, guns being fired in slow motion. Mr. Biden having his meetings, and one channel news in LV about a gun shooting. And finally the movie the Patriot. And again when one doesn’t watch TV you see maybe an elite theme that others don’t see. Likewise in the early 90’s they were training us to hate muslims as towel headed terrorists such as movies “True Lies” way before 911. All this preconditioning may be needed to get the plebes to do their calling later and play their part in directed history. That history like elections has multiple choices and endings that each don’t make a difference to them because they profit either way.

            And though I liked the movie the Patriot it actually made me think that a revolution may be secretly what they want (you know Russo’s warning this whole thing is a planned scam). They know the gun control thing is going to be a powder keg. They might have 3 alternative outcomes based on the results with each one where they win either way. Seeing how these creeps bankroll destruction in the rest of the world and history I’m beginning to believe that they really are hoping to start a civil strife here. The outcomes such as martial law, a new constituional convention, maybe using superior firepower like thunderbolts and predator drones on militia to dimish their numbers and question their own firepower. Basically hoping you are dumb enough to meet them out in a large group on the prarie. They may not even care if the country becomes the Balkans as a divide and conquer technique if the hatred is toward America ideals say by an international group that wants us all warred out against each other.

            I think being a channel surfer a person might actually be able to see the programming and their actual desires and negate them. The one thing they don’t expect or want is that the people actually take to the trouble makers and not to each other. They certainly have their platoons protecting them. No they know the average guy is going to get pissed rightfully so at the guy they send into your house to throw your tables upside down against your will. They will sit back and laugh and watch the show as their paid mercenaries either win at making a man spineless or bleed each other dry. They then take an upperhanded we got to get this violence under control like they always do.

            I like the Patriot movie that resembles the real world of 1776, the milita back then went for the top english brass first. Some lessons if history repeats I suppose and hopefully it doesn’t but don’t waste your time on privates and sergeants. Don’t even waste your time on colonels and leutinents if it comes to a civil war you got to go to the real snake head if you know what I mean. And it won’t be easy and I rather not try myself. But in war why not because in fodder of war its most likely the odds are against the average guy anyway, why waste time on peabodies that make no difference?

            I hope I’m wrong but this doesn’t look good as the theme appears to be to motivate Hell in America us taking out each other. I’m beginning to consider packing out to Argentina or Chile like Doug Casey suggests. I’ve slept in enough cold nights without electricity on the road to various contract destinations and have no desire to repeat the same shit cycle of shivering without heat because of some conniving bastard up on top. Nope I’ve buried the guns and taking my capital where I will have a chance to come back and rebuild America after its all over. Still if I’m left with no choice I guess I’ll fight, that seems inevitable with the current TV message being sent. War is definitely interested in us it seems by the TV theme they are projecting these days. They want to see you’re gonads by sacraficing you to the bulllet spitting beast or beat you into the boot of submission and make sure you have no chance of ever talking back. They calculate win win for them either way, unless of course history does repeat and people actually go for the trouble makers instead. Again I prefer civil disobedience and would never ever advocate murder as being the best or only way to solve a solution, so I’m in no way endorsing some mad man to go killing people. There is still time to solve this peacefully if people can work together and enough people can become aware. I have faith that the freedom movement will overcome this peacefully.

            Best Regards,
            HR

          • methylamine
            January 15, 2013 at 4:21 pm

            @HR:

            A truly prophetic post, sir!

            Alex Jones thinks similarly; they want civil war, it’s an easy way for them to destroy America at near-zero cost.

            It’s a recurring theme; use the serf’s own wealth to destroy them.

            And on TV: totally agreed. I can’t watch sitcoms anymore, the memes and programming are so obvious it ruins any enjoyment I might have. The man of the house is always a bumbling idiot, the women are brassy-voiced desperate-looking emaciated harpies. The children are awful beyond description.

            They want to paint humanity–especially its good points like family love–as ugly and disgusting. All the better for us to self-destruct.

            And, on going for the generals–100% agreed. Don’t waste yourself on the minions. Cherchez la femme!

        • Bill Jones
          January 15, 2013 at 1:24 am

          “The only shotgun gauge worth considering is the 12 gauge. ”

          What’s your problem with this
          http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/shotgun-families/autoloading-model-sp-10.aspx

          • January 15, 2013 at 1:30 am

            Dear Bill,

            The 12 is big enough.

            If the 10 were the most popular gauge, I would say, go for it. You would have the most options for shot loads and powder charges.

            But it isn’t. The 12 is. So go with the 12. The 12 is at the apex of the bell curve as it were, and also powerful enough.

            Just my two cents. Not “laying down the law.” Merely sharing my reasoning, for your consideration. Every man must make his own decision.

            After all, I’m an anarchist, not a clover! ;-)

          • Bill Jones
            January 15, 2013 at 1:50 am

            Bevin, 10’s were all the rage thirty odd years ago in England when I learned to shoot. You never forget your first love.

            Then, there’s this little beauty

            http://supportyourlocalgunfighter.com/wp-content/uploads/Triple-Barreled-Shotgun.jpg

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:14 am

            Dear Bill,

            I used to really like the European long guns known as “drillings.”

            I’m sure you know what I’m referring to. Combination break action rifle/shotguns, sometimes with a CF rifle, RF rifle, and shotgun.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun

            http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/Model42

            Break actions are better for shotguns though. The diminished accuracy resulting from the break action configuration doesn’t hurt shotgun accuracy as much as it does rifle accuracy.

          • Bill Jones
            January 15, 2013 at 2:23 am

            Bevin,
            I haven’t heard that term in thirty years, Thanks!

            I’m a big guy 6’4″+ and have been told all my life that bigger is better.

          • January 15, 2013 at 2:41 am

            Dear Bill,

            The drilling seems to be primarily a thing with the Germans, Austrians, and Swiss.

            Except of course for the Savage Model 42.

          • Bill Jones
            January 15, 2013 at 3:13 am

            Bevin, Drilling is an Anglicization of Deiling, from the German drei, for three.
            That’s why it’s more common in the the land of the Kraut.

          • Bill Jones
            January 15, 2013 at 3:20 am

            Drieling, of course

      • methylamine
        January 13, 2013 at 4:47 am

        How about a pistol-grip 20 gauge? Less recoil than a 12, much more effective than a .410…

        I’ll hand it to you though; the recoil on a 12ga is pretty ugly. That said, the need for follow-on shots is probably not as high :)

        I don’t know if you guys have seen these; they’re new shotgun shells that have a single 0.65 inch ball, and five or six buckshot balls. The theory being the big ball gives knock-down, the smaller balls the usual shredding effects of buckshot.

        They had it at AmmoToGo.com last week when I ordered some; I don’t see it there now.

        • January 13, 2013 at 11:30 am

          My Mossberg is a handful.

          Useless for other than sweeping a room at close quarters – and assuming a strong man handling the thing!

          • methylamine
            January 13, 2013 at 5:55 pm

            Ha, great minds! I have a Mossie too.

            I think, because it’s so light, its recoil is more noticeable than my 308 rifles. Also, no recoil spring or muzzle brake.

            A friend has that clever Blackhawk adjustable recoil-reducing stock. I shot his at the range a week ago, and it makes a HUGE difference!

            Unfortunately, like just about every useful firearm/accessory/ammo, it’s out of stock at Amazon.

      • Derek B
        January 14, 2013 at 11:57 pm

        Check out the Winchester SPX Speedpump, if you are looking for a home defense shotgun – you can get it with a swappable 26″ or 28″ barrel if you are into hunting, it comes with a triple choke set, and it has an AMAZINGLY smooth action. 18.5″ barrel for close range is standard, I think the extra barrel is about $60 more in most places. Takes 2 3/4″ and 3″ shells.

    • tom
      January 12, 2013 at 2:16 pm

      Check out the personal defense .410 loads, meant originally for the Taurus Judge revolver. They typically have a small slug and a few pellets in the shell. I betcha they work in a 410 shotgun just fine. You can also find 00buck in 410, which I’m sure you know of.

      (Now why isnt there anything larger than #3buck for a 20gauge???)

    • January 12, 2013 at 2:32 pm

      More often than not, the best the costumed tax feeders can do is show up with a piece of chalk to outline the victims. Look at how utterly useless they were yesterday in Los Angeles:

      Calif. Nordstrom hostages held hours; 1 sexually assaulted, 1 stabbed

      • dom
        January 13, 2013 at 1:14 am

        Where the hell did the suspects go?

      • methylamine
        January 13, 2013 at 4:51 am

        So, let me get this straight…they wait two hours to go into Nordstrom–while a hostage is raped–and meanwhile, imprison hundreds in a movie theater for SIX hours??

        Jesus H. Christ; people still think cops serve a purpose?

        Naturally none of the nice peaceful Kalifornians at Nordstrom were armed. Because guns are dangerous.

        • Ed
          January 14, 2013 at 11:45 am

          “they wait two hours to go into Nordstrom–while a hostage is raped–and meanwhile, imprison hundreds in a movie theater for SIX hours??”

          It’s about officer safety, don’tchaknow. Remember how the donut munchers cowered outside the high school at Columbine, pissing their black SWAT BDUs, until they were sure the two shooters were done for?

          Police aren’t there for us. They’re the guard dogs of the political class. They PROTECT (themselves and each other) AND SERVE ( their political masters).

          • January 14, 2013 at 12:02 pm

            Indeed.

            Officer 82nd Airborne is mucho macho when dealing with a seatbelt scofflaw or “speeder.” Not so much when dealing with an armed opponent.

    • January 12, 2013 at 7:24 pm

      as for a 410. Overall good choice, lean toward a shorter barrell length- you don’t need the duck hynting version. FInd a reliable sourse of buckshot loads (might be tough) or research how to reload your own. Ammo might be hrad to come by in the future. 12 ga. is far more common by heavier, and vastly more recoil. Ammo is easy to get tho.

    • January 14, 2013 at 5:55 pm

      In 1982 I had to shoot a man to save my life.(full story here: The Man I Might Have Killed http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/08/09/22/editor.htm )

      I had a .410 shotgun I’d used on the farm. Single shot, no other ammunition with me and no time to reload. It was a miracle he didn’t kill me – as he was diligent to promise as he attacked.

      I can’t handle a 12 gauge, but a Mossy 20 gauge stands by my bed. I carry a handgun every day, everywhere I go. I’ll never be a helpless victim again, if I have anything at all to do with it.

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