Turn Your Back This Fourth of July

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In a few days, we will all have an opportunity to peacefully inflict a major psychological blow on the rapidly coalescing police state by the simple but powerful act of refusing to play along with the absurd pantomime on the 4th of July that we live in an even nominally free country – one with the rule of law, an operative Constitution and respect for individual rights. One that isn’t a thugocracy.

We can turn our backs on the flag. Decline to participate when urged to cheer and sing.4th lead No fireworks. No barbeques.

We can sit down – and bow our heads.

We can mention the unmentionable: That there is no longer any meaningful limit to the power of the government over our lives. No line beyond which it may not tread. That it lies, spies and tyrannizes.

We can admit to ourselves the shoddy – and frightening – reality bubbling up all around us.

By so doing, we can shatter the illusion that this government operates with anything remotely approximating our consent. This is absolutely essential. The 4th of July pantomime requires that we deny the obvious – that we instead pretend we’re free people living in a free country; one in which the government is accountable to the people, one in which the government is limited by law. One in which people can’t simply be dragooned into prisons without due process, held incommunicado, tortured. A country with a president who doesn’t have kill lists – or use the instruments of state power to punish and intimidate his political opponents. One in which citizens must be suspected of a crime before their personal correspondence is filched through and recorded for later use against them. One in which a traveler is free from arbitrary and random searches of his person and effects.back turned One in which the attorney general of the United States isn’t able to get away with providing guns to gangs or brazenly lie about his use of the power of his office to go after political “enemies” rather than pursue justice.

All these things are everyday realities. And the reality is that the America we once celebrated on the Fourth of July is gone, replaced by something dark and ominous.

It is painfully obvious – so why pretend otherwise?

More to the point, why should we celebrate this ugly transformation?

Mourning is what’s called for.

If we decline to play along – and we still have this option, for the moment – we can shatter the idea that all of the foregoing loathsomeness is done with our approval. We can redefine the relationship between ourselves and the government in an honest way. No more pretending we’re free. No more pretending we’re protected by the rule of law – and not ruled over by a thug caste – a mafia – that does literally whatever it wants, to anyone, at any time – without any real consequences whatsoever. None of this requires elaboration. Everyone knows it to be true. The Constitution is no longer even payed lip service to. It is a sick joke.

We are in the position of a battered spouse who is expected to rouge her bruises and tell her friends that – whoops! – she fell down the stairs. But hubby is a swell guy.beaten wife

I say, to hell with that.

I say, let’s not give them the cover they still apparently crave. I say, let’s out them – by openly displaying our bruises and no longer denying how we got them. Let the world see the true nature of the relationship between us and those who rule us.

China had its Tiananmen Moment – when one brave man stood up to a column of tanks and changed history by the simple act of refusing to play along. By peacefully forcing the thugocracy’s hand. It faced a hard choice: Either it could either run that man down in full view of live TV, crush him under the treads of a T-72 and thereby give real-life and incontrovertible evidence of the true nature of the relationship of the Chinese government vis-a-vis the average Chinese. Or it could back down – and thereby be compelled to alter the relationship in a way at least somewhat more favorable to the average Chinese.4th final

We have a similar opportunity coming up. A chance to confront the police state by refusing to pretend it’s not a police state. By coming to grips with what it is.

And what it is is nothing to celebrate.

I urge you to join me this July 4th in turning your back on the flag – on all grotesque homilies to a country that no longer exists, because of the government which does exist – and which desperately wants us to keep on playing patty cake and pretending that it doesn’t.

Throw it in the Woods?    

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  366 comments for “Turn Your Back This Fourth of July

  1. Tor Minotaur
    July 10, 2013 at 12:08 am

    I understand how the Amish feel, wanting to live in a better time. I’d like to turn my back on everything since 1975 or so. By mutual agreement, everything that happened since then would be forgot and never brought to mind…

    Moonlight Feels Right – 1975 – Starbuck – Blackman & Wagner
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWJmvFIIoQ

    https://www.facebook.com/bruce.blackman.79
    https://www.facebook.com/bo.wagner.52

    The wind blew some luck in my direction, I caught it in my hands today.
    I finally made a tricky French connection, You winked and gave me your OK.
    I’ll take you on a trip beside the ocean, And drop the top at Chesapeake Bay.
    Ain’t nothin’ like the sky to dose a potion, The moon’ll send you on your way.
    Chuckle.

    Moonlight feels right, moonlight feels right.

    We’ll lay back and observe the constellations, And watch the moon smilin’ bright.
    I’ll play the radio on southern stations, ‘Cause southern belles are hell at night.
    You say you came to Baltimore from Ole Miss, A class of seven-four gold ring.
    The eastern moon looks ready for a wet kiss, To make the tide rise again.
    Chuckle.

    Moonlight feels right, moonlight feels right.

    We’ll see the sun come up on Sunday mornin’, And watch it fade the moon away.
    I guess you know I’m givin’ you a warnin’, ‘Cause me and moon are itchin’ to play.
    I’ll take you on a trip beside the ocean, And drop the top at Chesapeake Bay.
    Ain’t nothin’ like the sky to dose a potion, The moon’ll send you on your way.
    Chuckle.

    Moonlight feels right, moonlight feels right.

    Moonlight feels right…

    – I turn my back on whatever happened next…

    • July 10, 2013 at 10:04 am

      Hi Tor,

      I feel the same way.

      Lately, the wife and I have been watching DVDs of the TV series, Lost.

      I find myself thinking: How neat it would be to time-travel back to the early ’70s and live on “the island,” and forget the suffocating insanity of today.

      “Make your own kind of music….”

      – Cass Elliot

      “Everyone is helpful, everyone is kind, on the road to Shambalah…”

      -Three Dog Night

      • Eightsouthman
        July 13, 2013 at 7:07 pm

        eric, Tor, it was a whole nother thing back when we got our kicks on Route 66. Put your foot in that old Chrysler and drive into the sun…I-20(no, it didn’t replace 66) may be a great way to get across Texas but the old “red” gravel highways and brick roads it replaced were a source of amazing sights, sounds and smells as you traveled. Cars had no stereo or for the most part, radio since you didn’t always have a station to hear much of the time but the highway song was beautiful all the same.

  2. Aristotle
    July 5, 2013 at 2:40 am

    Sooooo, Let’s see….

    Government steals everyone’s money using threats of guns and jails – Buys a huge pile of fireworks – Launches fireworks into the air in celebration of “Our Freedom”.

    Just how stupid are Amoricans? Your political owners must be having a great laugh!

    • liberranter
      July 6, 2013 at 12:06 am

      Just how stupid are Amoricans?

      Stupid enough to celebrate their “freedom” while every aspect of their lives is regimented by gunvermint.

      A measurement tool hasn’t yet been invented that can adequately quantify that kind of stupidity.

  3. ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
    July 5, 2013 at 1:14 am

    On July 4th, We Must End The Strife Between Democrats And Republicans:

    “I never use the words Republicans and Democrats. It’s liberals and Americans.”

    – James Watt – Reagan’s Secretary Of The Interior

  4. Tre Deuce
    July 3, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    http://www.restorethefourth.net/ Just in case somebody else didn’t post this.

  5. Yeander Wolf
    July 2, 2013 at 11:22 am

    no doubt ‘they’ will be activating another mark chapman (or sorting out some boston brakes) for the author of this piece even as I type.
    Good luck man, by the time the zealots on here agree with you, it will probably be too late.
    If you flee to hongkong my advice is, stay there

    • July 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm

      Hi Yeander,

      I don’t discount the possibility. But although I am not a “tough guy,” I will not – cannot – remain silent as this nation descends into something I never would have imagined: A replica of the old Soviet Union or National Socialist Germany.

      • Yeander Wolf
        July 5, 2013 at 10:35 am

        Good man. The problem with modern governments is they don’t know how to govern, they simply take, and then take some more, and when that’s gone……..they take even more.
        Even fairly recently if you didnt like a democratic government you could vote for the other lot and things might change (albeit at snail’s pace) – now they just switch places and ‘policy’ rolls on regardless.
        Something’s gonna have to give.

  6. July 2, 2013 at 6:34 am

    The new look of fascism. Dressed up like anything except what it is.
    by Chas Altvater Monday, May 20, 2013

    When a wolf dressed like your grandma shows up at your door be advised: That lump is not a gun and he is very happy to see you.

    I think you are both right . . . or are you both wrong? In this country Government loads both sides of an issue. Spin doctors craft demographically targeted ‘press releases’ for supposedly opposing news outlets. News agencies are complicit in aiding the re-direction of public interest and opinion into areas of volatility that flare up and generate the smoke that obscures the real issues. The very foundations that this country is built on are being destroyed by the elected elite of BOTH parties and all that comes out of DC is denials and finger pointing because the liberal vs. conservative agendas are part of the smoke being blown up our collective asses. Information/news is product in this country and obfuscation and pacification it’s end. The most popular traditional news outlets? The ones that make that smoke almost pyroclastic. 15% event, 20% advert and 65% opinion of reported events. And they got a flavor for every hate. The executive branch doesn’t even bother to hide the framework of the machine they have been constructing for half a century. The machine that can disappear you or your son or daughter at the whim or convenience of madmen who would label all of us ‘enemy combatants’ while doing every thing in their power to keep us from realizing it. Why do you think things change, but not really? Trickle down, never trickle up. Fewer options, more requirements. I thought Nixon was a creep but when it got real for him he resigned. Whether he intended it as such or not it was the right thing to do for the Republic. Clinton stone-walled and rode it out but he was a liar from the gate. I couldn’t respect a man who ‘didn’t inhale’. It was probably a lie. But it may have been confirmation of his being too scared to get high and too scared to let his Filet Mignon eating, Ivy League revolutionary peers know he had refused their sacrament. As for the two others since Bubba everything they say is neutered and vetted according to poll results and a prevailing attitude that a misinformed voting proletariat is some how less threatening than a free range electorate armed with the truth and the will to engage a corrupt reactionary system not as liberals or conservatives but as free thinking Americans. If you want my opinion, simply getting another party resident at 1600 Penn may increase your comfort level but the truly despicable things that we don’t want to believe, things perpetrated by our own government that should scare us to death will continue regardless. This shit cannot be fixed with the same old shit because the same old shit will seek to preserve the same old shit and that shit IS NOT WORKING for us. It is working against any empowerment of a freedom loving sovereign American citizen or Republic. The Republic and the citizen are being redefined without our input or oversight. The truths we held self-evident The State no longer considers to be Truth. The only Truth now is what The State offers as Truth. The dystopia in the novel 1984 at least offered glimpses of its agenda. ‘War is peace’, ‘freedom is slavery’, ‘ignorance is strength’ at least gave some indication of The Party’s direction. We, on the other hand, have been bagged and pushed into the rabbit hole while being covertly conditioned into belief that wanting something to be true makes it so. Then our individual factions schooled us on what we wanted and in that way told us what was Truth, the finger pointing, its their fault-ing, not my problem-ing derailed what was left of ‘critical thinking’ for most American voters . . . in fact, the discomfort so many of us are feeling right now is really just the way the world feels outside of the bliss of ignorance.

    American fascism will implement under the guise of ‘homeland security’ and social reform (engineering) and events engineered to provide the ‘softening’ of public reaction to the State’s breaches of civil, criminal and Constitutional law. It will deny its existence so many times that eventually we will accept its suggestions. Its happened before in the US. Its happening now in the US and it will happen in the future unless it is stopped by a unified electorate that is willing to tackle the hard painful truths that must be confronted to pull the nation from the brink and salvage, perhaps restore what we can of it. To do these things as one People who have seen behind the curtain of political theatrics that would have us believe they (and by extension, US) are the world’s best hope while they steadfastly refuse to do the work it takes to be the ‘Good Guys’, mindful of our shortcomings and our need to relearn tolerance and accept that equality does not mean everyone has the same beliefs as us. It means everyone has the same right to believe as they will within the parameters of ‘Cause no harm’ to the lives and freedoms of other members of our collective, and to come together in our pursuit and promotion of a Republic that can hear the word ‘NO!’ every bit as loudly as a citizen does and to finally become the nation that chooses to do the hard things, chooses to make the sacrifices that empower the Republic and its sovereign citizenry so that we might truly come from higher ground instead of just mouthing the words as we engage the future as a free society who will no longer tolerate the idea that the State is more important than the person and leaving the myth-building and social engineering to states like Israel and North Korea.

  7. dom
    July 2, 2013 at 12:11 am

    Snowden added, “In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.”

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/01/snowden-breaks-silence-amid-request-for-asylum-in-russia-vows-to-continue/#ixzz2XqHtUqOo

    • Eightsouthman
      July 2, 2013 at 4:25 am

      dom, there’s no way to cover all the excuses they give for the rampant police state. I have been pointing this out since 1971. I’ve been dumped on and bad mouthed. I never considered the possibility of being wrong since I’d put so many years of thought and consideration on this matter and as usual, it was just out there like the proverbial elephant in the room. What do you say after the point of ridiculousness has passed a long time ago and things have only devolved in that timeline? I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I could see this as a young teen and even before, in my childhood, rejection of the hypocrites I was indoctrinated to interact with. Sorry, I see about 70% of the people back in the 70’s as being convertible, now I see maybe 85% being unreachable. I really don’t like to say this. Maybe the dollar will cease to function for a very short while and it will be rejuvenated, as if it really had value and in the mean time, a great deal(% of)more people will figure out the elephant in the room, the big lie. Scary thoughts(no food, water, power etc.)for the future. It could come full circle and while not totally devastating, consume 60=70 or 80% of the population and leave only the fittest of a varied population that would include very few older people, mostly those who were in the best shape and had some sort of ability to acquire what they needed to survive. Babies, young children, older people and those who need only one special treatment occasionally would not be in good stead.

  8. Mike in Boston
    July 1, 2013 at 5:07 am

    I stopped singing the anthem a few years ago, gets me some stares at sporting events but I’m big enough and have amean enough return stare that nobody screws with me (yet). Nobody gets the irony when they sing “land of the free and home of the brave” NOT! LMFAO, what’s really sick is all the hero worship of the uniformed thugs at any gathering of the masses of asses. They’ve already announced anyone attending the July 4th concert here in Boston will have to go through TSA level airport style security yet watch the sheeple line up by the thousands to celebrate their “freedom” . More irony. Better yet don’t watch because it will be a nauseating orgy of self congratulation and “God bless Amerika” hypocrisy. As some prior posters alluded to the complicity of a few churches in state worship, I think God forgive Amerika would be more appropriate.

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      July 1, 2013 at 2:51 pm

      Mike in Boston, I read somewhere that the event will not be televised, for the first time.
      … Is that a scary foreshadowing in the background, or is it just an attempt to downplay and hide the overbearing security apparatus along with the irony?

      • Mike in Boston
        July 1, 2013 at 4:39 pm

        Downshift, it will be televised locally but not nationally. the official story is CBS thought the ratings were too low, which is actually a good thing. I personally will be having a few beers in my backyard while setting off some (illegal of course) fireworks I acquired on my travels outside Massachusetts, the ultimate nanny state. :-)

        • liberranter
          July 1, 2013 at 9:15 pm

          Massachusetts, the ultimate nanny state. :-)

          That’s what has ALWAYS killed me – the birthplace of the American Revolution is the home of government so oppressive that if the founders from Massachusetts were to rise from the grave and walk about Boston for just a day, they’d realize that they fought and died in vain.

  9. PokeTheTruth
    July 1, 2013 at 3:30 am

    Okay, Eric enough back and forth talk about this topic. Now, what are we going to do on Thursday, July 4, huh?

    I mean, what are we REALLY going to do?

    Here’s what I think we can’t do:

    1. Anything involving public property (e.g., government buildings, schools, parks, etc. ) Risky and potentially will draw attention from blue men with bad breath wheeling cudgels.

    2. Anything that creates a spontaneous shock wave, no matter how small the amount of energy released (no need to elaborate on this).

    3. Noise making public displays with bullhorns, air horns, etc. This sounds threatening and annoys people.

    4. Groups of people (at least two) singing freedom songs. Nah, too wussy for me.

    Hmmm, what to do, what to do.

    I have an idea but let me digress for a moment.

    You know what’s great about the simple hotdog? It’s the variety of stuff you can do with it. Besides grilling, frying or boiling them, you can add all kinds of different condiments on top. It is a great American food tradition because of the variety of options that are available. Anybody can have their hotdog the way they like it.

    To my point, another American tradition is lighter than air balloons. You know, the kind you can by at the dollar store and fill them up with a lighter than air gas and watch them float high into the sky. You don’t need a license to buy them, they’re not regulated by the FAA, they come in a variety of colors and they can fly for a number of miles upward.

    Now a liberty minded person could attach any number of things to the string that connects to the balloon. You can draw or write anything on the surface of the balloon as well. It is a very simple but versatile amusement and everybody likes them. Who doesn’t take a moment to look up at a balloon?

    I’ve decided I’m going to fly a balloon on July 4. I going to write some clever words on a piece of paper (“Let’s renew the Declaration of Independence”), attach it the string and let ‘er go. I’ll watch my little voice of freedom ascend into the heavens over America.

    Maybe my balloon will meet other balloons. Maybe, thousands of them all demanding their independence from tyranny.

    My voice will be seen, my words will be read and freedom loving Americans will know they are not alone.

    • July 1, 2013 at 9:28 am

      Hi Poke,

      That’s a capital idea! Excellent!

      I’m in!

    • GrayCat
      July 2, 2013 at 12:02 am

      Sounds wonderful! Will be a beautiful gesture!

      THANKS for the idea!!!

  10. Sad Elvis Velvet Painting
    June 30, 2013 at 6:46 pm

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own goodwill torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~ CS Lewis

  11. June 30, 2013 at 2:27 pm
  12. Doug
    June 30, 2013 at 9:00 am

    Anyone who asks me why I don’t live in the United States of America, I reply, “Because I value my Personal Freedoms and Privacy more than cheap gasoline and guns. Anyone who continues to live in the US and has the means, or is not working toward those means to get out, comes across as just another frustrated citizen living in the most wonderful Country on Earth – at least, that’s how their Dear Leaders view them.

  13. Cram
    June 30, 2013 at 5:54 am

    Overly Attached Uncle Sam

  14. scarlettl
    June 30, 2013 at 3:02 am

    Next door to my place is a business that flies a large Amerikan flag, 24/7. In my garden flies a small Betsy Ross American flag….it’s beautiful.

  15. Ralph Watson
    June 30, 2013 at 2:19 am

    I think we can take it one step further and turn it into a protest for the restoration of the Constitution by making the slogan of the day

    “BRING BACK THE FOURTH!!!”

    This slogan should be trumpeted at all the celebrations. It emphasizes the need to 1) Bring back the Fourth Amendment. 2) Bring back the Fourth of July (Our Country, we have lost this.)

    I think this could be effective, but has to go viral very quickly…

  16. Cram
    June 30, 2013 at 1:35 am

    You will never be free again…Get use to it, or die. The mentally retarded democracy parasites and their political/bankster terrorist cartel will never allow it.

  17. Brad Smith
    June 30, 2013 at 12:52 am

    I will be using the day to shoot a hundred rounds or so out of my newest rifle, it’s a 7.62x54r Type 53 Chinese Carbine. It’s a cannon too and nobody is going to mistake the sound of it for some little firecrackers.

    Kinda ironic that I use a Chinese rifle for prepping and protesting.

  18. GrayCat
    June 30, 2013 at 12:13 am

    WELL said, Eric! THANK YOU!!!!

    We open the doors and windows, put in our Blu-ray copy of V For Vendetta, turn up the volume, and let the neighbors’ (illegal! :-D ) fireworks provide the glorious background and emphasis for the freedom dialogue that fills that movie!

    This has become our 4th of July tradition.

    We discuss how wonderful it would be if freedom lovers all over the nation would do that. Maybe some neighbors would make the connections. There are some really great anti-state movies on DVD that could be played — V has some content some people find objectionable, though it was deliberately used to make the point of what freedom really is and means.

    Why join the herd in all those stupid official “celebrations” of hypocrisy and lies when you can stand apart, a human being, born free, to be free?

    • JimInNY
      June 30, 2013 at 2:17 am

      Isn’t it ironic that we are not “allowed” to use fireworks to celebrate freedom? lmao!

      • June 30, 2013 at 9:18 am

        Yup – and so few people even notice the irony.

        So “free” … yet we’re subject to arrest for lighting off fireworks, even if it’s on “our” own damn property.

      • GrayCat
        July 1, 2013 at 12:27 am

        Where I live, private fireworks are permitted, limited, and the really good stuff is illegal.

        But a HUGE number of the population comes from nations where uninhibited fireworks celebrations are part of the culture for millennia. They don’t give up easily, and more power to them!

        This is such a Democrat Party-dominated state that this little bit of rebellion is basically it. Sad.

        Which is why I hope the neighbors will hear the true message via our anti-state movies.

        Our neighborhood is a suburb of VERY close houses, and is composed mainly of Korean, Chinese, Filipino, and Japanese, and they DON’T give up their fireworks willingly, despite the best efforts of their nannies. There is evidently a ring that steals the big aerial fireworks from the shipping containers as the shipments come in; a couple of years ago, the nannies thought they had it all under control.

        But last year, when so many “official” and military fireworks shows were cancelled and/or HEAVILY “supervised” by “law enforcement” and “access” to military bases, that these illegal aerials found their way into private venues and “shows,” and we just sit back and watch the spectacular displays all over, and right next door, too!

        It gets smokey sometimes, but hey, for three days a year, the Fourth of July and New Years — both Western and Chinese — at least, a very large number of the otherwise clover population defies their state. Which gives me some (however forlorn) hope.

        Have to say we’re ‘way too cheap to buy the $25 (so far) permits and then buy our limit of “approved” and “legal” stuff when everyone else around us does. Sorry.

        But we believe the WORDS count, when coupled with the act of defying the state to illegally acquire and use the forbidden aerials.

        I love the smell and sounds and the glorious colors of defiance in the evening! ;-)

    • June 30, 2013 at 9:29 am

      Thanks, Gray!

      Good to see you back, by the way…

      • GrayCat
        July 1, 2013 at 12:05 am

        I’m usually “lurking.” But the posters here are so magnificent, I hardly ever feel the “need” to put my $0.02 in. I am usually overwhelmed and humbled by the FREEDOM breathed here! I just take big, deep breaths, and then I feel much better! ;-)

        I LOVE IT HERE!!!!

        • July 1, 2013 at 9:48 am

          Thank you, GC!

          PS: Your posts are superb, too. Especially your response to eDan. I very much appreciate your taking the time to lay out for him the way you did. Top drawer!

          • GrayCat
            July 1, 2013 at 11:59 pm

            You’re making my head swell far beyond my capacity to bear!

            I just get sick and tired of all the garbage thrown at the Wall of Obviousness and Truth.

            It can’t stick, but they keep throwing, anyway. Wasting all that time, energy, resources.

            And for what? The stinking pile that grows and grows and that they never clean up!

            But the Wall stands. Truth stands. Shining, with gates thrown wide open to those who want the freedom and dignity and peace found through them. Strangely closed and impenetrable to those who don’t. So easily seen by all who will see, so invisible to those who will not to see.

            • July 2, 2013 at 10:15 am

              Morning, Gray!

              I think we’re going to win this thing. For the first time in my life, I am finding that random people I meet “out there” and to whom I make an offhand comment about such things as the TSA or cops out of control agree with me. When I wear a pro-liberty T shirt, I get favorable comments.

              I was talking with Dom (the web master here) last night. I told him I think they have pushed too hard, too quickly. Too many people can still remember an America that was not utterly out of control. It existed as recently as 15 years ago. Thus, their memories make the situation developing all around them all-too-uncomfortably obvious.

              And the government is helping by de-legitimizing itself via such things (just to name a few) as the NSA disclosures, the tax harassment, the truth coming out about TWA 800 – and so on.

              The intellectual-ethical wheel is turning; our ideas are gaining ground. We only need a bit more time to convert a critical mass of the populace.

              Remember: It’s always darkest before the light….

  19. DownshiftFast5to1
    June 29, 2013 at 9:57 pm

    eDan wrote, “No, we are not a lawless police state”

    Ah-hem, are you sure about that?:

    The Law Is Dead
    http://lewrockwell.com/rossi/rossi20.1.html

    How the Feds Imprison the Innocent
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts274.html

    Channeling the Soviet Union: How U.S. Federal Criminal Law Has Reincarnated Beria
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson255.html

    The Murder of David Sal Silva
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/137564.html

    A Coverup That Won’t Stay Covered
    “Law and order conservatives, who believe that the only wrong ever done by the criminal justice system is to under-punish the guilty, have much to learn from the Trentadue case.”
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts20.html

    Breaking: New York Creates a Psychiatric Police State
    http://lewrockwell.com/rappoport/rappoport12.1.html

    The Police State Abolishes the Trial
    “Today, every single citizen, no matter how free he or she may feel in daily life, is in reality a sitting duck. You can be made to disappear. There is essentially no way you can escape once the feds sweep you into their net. There is no justice. The total states of the past used to pretend to have trial-based convictions. The total state of the present doesn’t even bother. It just puts a sack over your head and takes you away.”
    http://lewrockwell.com/rockwell/police-state-end-the-trial191.html

    Police State Fascism Is Now Rampant: Martial Law Is Next!
    “The object of this charade of course is not to stop terrorism, but to intimidate (terrorize) the people, and to habituate them, so that they will come to expect and accept this kind of treatment in order to be “safe.” This indoctrination training by the state is meant only to beat down the individual into submission, so that state thugs can gain more control. This is not a new concept, but in the U.S. today, police state abuses are not only greatly increasing in numbers, but also are becoming more invasive as every day passes.”
    http://lewrockwell.com/barnett/barnett40.1.html

    The Police State’s ‘Cardinal Rule': The Mundane Must Submit
    “…jaywalking occupies the same continuum as violent crime. […] Indeed: If we don’t permit police officers to slug jaywalking teenage girls in the face, the terrorists will win.

    […] the idea that “civilians” are to render instant, unqualified obedience to any armed individual in a government-issued costume is the chief characteristic of the martial law mind-set. ”
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w153.html

    The Food Police State
    “A government that can tell you what you can and cannot eat will soon regulate every morsel of food”
    .http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig13/salatin1.1.1.html

    Does Anyone Still Doubt We Languish in a Police-State?
    “And so they stole not only Ms. Clark’s sons but her roommates’ 8-year-old and 8-month-old daughters as well – though they frankly admit that “While the children were living in filthy conditions, there was no evidence to suggest they had been physically abused or were malnourished…” Those pitiable tykes now suffer “in the care of the state.””
    http://lewrockwell.com/akers/akers168.html

    • Eightsouthman
      June 29, 2013 at 10:48 pm

      Downshift, just because these people say it doesn’t make it true, yours truly, Clover(and yes, I did take my BC pill and my SSRI today).

      • DownshiftFast5to1
        June 30, 2013 at 12:41 am

        Oh mang, Eightsouthman, I’ve encountered that very response far too many times. You framed it perfectly.

        The links within those links made a huge impression on me, maybe it’s possible one or two Clovers will get that same impression? Maybe?

        GrayCat’s idea below isn’t bad. I watched the film today, I imagine it will be replayed on the fourth of July as well.

  20. June 29, 2013 at 9:00 pm

    I’ve built a simple javascript pop-up that you can add to your web site. On July 4 each year, it will show an upside down American flag with a link to this page. You can include it by adding a single line to your web site header (or to any single page on which you want it to appear). Instructions here: http://billstclair.com/blog/turn_your_back_this_fourth_of_july.html

  21. Seth Derrick (veteran)
    June 29, 2013 at 8:56 pm

    I just did this at SeaWorld San Diego. At the start of the Shamu show they asked all current or former members of the military to stand up and remain standing so SeaWorld and all the patrons could thank them for their service. I put my hands under my thighs and hung my head.

  22. JimInNY
    June 29, 2013 at 6:37 pm

    I stopped flying my American flag in 2003, I don’t salute the flag any more, for any reason and I certainly agree that Independence Day means nothing at this point in our history. The only thing I do on Memorial Day is remember the sacrifices of our founders, and pray for all the poor souls that were deceived by our highjacked government into giving their lives for all the wrong reasons, none of which had anything to do with protecting our freedoms. I think the last legitimate war we fought was the War of 1812, though one can make a case for Fighting Japan in WWII,even though we pressured Japan into attacking us.

    I really like your site, and blog. Tons of good stuff here. Thanks a bunch!

    • June 29, 2013 at 6:42 pm

      Amen, Jim – me too.

      It’s a day of mourning for me.

      Anyone over 40 can remember an America so different from the America of today that’s almost hard to believe we’ve this far, this fast.

      Hopefully, enough people will recover their senses before it’s too late.

      • Eightsouthman
        June 29, 2013 at 8:11 pm

        When I was growing up virtually every state was a rural heaven. You could do just about anything when I was growing up and not have any trouble as long as you didn’t harm somebody’s “stuff”, whatever that might be. My best friend(to this day)and I(12 years old) used to take the ranch pickup, according to which had the most fuel or had tags, to the closest large town (100,000) where we’d race our electric race cars and do whatever we wanted. Every now and then we might notice someone looking to see what we were driving but never had any problems. We’d drive down interstate for 30 miles one way, drive all over a big town, just do what came naturally and never got looked at twice. In fact, we’d go look at guns and fishing gear, and occasionally buy a gun, brand spanking new at the cheap mercantile store or hardware store. We’d get a few bricks of .22 for road hunting, lures, line and tackle at the sporting goods store(just one) and be set up for the foreseeable(10 days)future, long terms wasn’t always our thing. We fairly much went anywhere and everywhere and never had anyone say poo. I must say, it really sucks the big one now.

        • JimInNY
          June 29, 2013 at 8:26 pm

          I grew up on Long Island, NY, and that was rural for most of it’s length anyway. I remember as a kid walking down the road carrying a BB rifle or a .22 and no one ever looking at us cross. We’d hunt in the woods for quail and even dove with those guns, and eat what we killed, like we were living off the land. It was awesome!

          BTW, for the uninformed, dove tastes a lot like a tough steak. Quail, if I remember right, tasted like chicken. lol

        • 2yeuxbleus
          June 29, 2013 at 11:13 pm

          I’m with you. Ah, the memories of my childhood in TX. I still recall being 13 or 14 and able to buy shotgun shells for the 14 & 28 gauge shotguns, at the local sporting goods store all by my lonesome. My then 12 y.o. brother, would go into a store and buy one of our aunts cigarettes, when we were visiting her and her family in Guthrie OK. No biggie. Riding bikes and go-carts all over the place, with no goal in mind other the shear fun of it.

          • Eightsouthman
            June 29, 2013 at 11:44 pm

            It really was fun. We had a Texan reloader. It was great and we learned all the tricks of reloading as well as knowing exactly how much each shot cost. After a couple years, Norma came out with their all plastic shell that really worked well. I still have some. When rains came and flooded, you never knew where we’d be, seining red head minnows in a pasture with a big creek, taking chances with big snapping turtles or just anything. Saddle up the horses and grab our guns and tear off.

    • Phillip the Bruce
      July 1, 2013 at 7:36 pm

      When I lived in TX, we didn’t even get Memorial Day off work – that’s a Yankee holiday.

      • Eightsouthman
        July 1, 2013 at 8:14 pm

        Philip, we never realized how pore we were in the 50’s, no big deal since plenty were even poorer but holidays were maybe Thanksgiving, xmas and Labor Day. As a kid we’d ask questions about things we’d heard on the radio or from someone or a sign. I can remember times somebody would grab you, look you in the eye and say”We don’t do that, it’s what Yankees do” and that had better be all the explanation you needed. I was recently looking at old family photos and thought to myself, we didn’t need to wear clothes very often.

  23. eDan
    June 29, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    I am so sick of the hyperbole. Yes,we have some problems to work on. No, we are not a lawless police state with dissidents being tortured to death at the whim of iron-fisted dictators.

    It’s time for the conspiracy theorists to take a good look around. Check out how things are in other countries. Consider how easily you can spread this crap right here, in this alleged police state, and not end up silenced overnight. It’s time to stop undercutting your own country just because you don’t like the guy who won the last couple of elections.

    A wise man once said, the United States has the worst government in the world – except for all the others. Think about that before droning on endlessly about how awful things are here. Instead, why not try to find ways to make things better. And let me tell you in all earnestness, asking fellow citizens to slap America in the face on its birthday is not a rational way to accomplish that goal. Not even close.

    • June 29, 2013 at 6:18 pm

      So Dan –

      We should be grateful for the remaining liberties we still enjoy? Even though they are being systematically taken away almost right before our eyes, every day? For the fact that – today - I haven’t been dragged out of my car and Tazered because I refused to “buckle up for safety”? That we only have to hand over about a third of our income to the government? That we’re only forced to buy car and health insurance… but not (yet) life insurance? That we only have to submit to a grope of our crotches (for now) to board an airplane… but not (yet) a cavity search? That – so far – you haven’t been dragged off into the night, thrown in a cage without any formal charges and left to rot for years… just those “evildoers” (as defined by whomever controls the levers of power)…

      We should praise this state of affairs because hey, it’s (for the moment) better than North Korea . . . ?

      Seriously?

      It is a lawless police state. People are being tortured – the government admits this openly. The president asserts authority to have anyone killed – at his whim.

      The fact that this is not – yet – being done on a mass scale means we only have a few “problems,” Dan?

      Just “hyperbole”?

      • Dan
        June 30, 2013 at 2:45 am

        “The president asserts authority to have anyone killed – at his whim.”

        If you don’t recognize that as hyperbole, I’m afraid further discussion is pointless, and you are so far over in conspiracy land that nothing can bring you back.

        Rational, critically thinking folks talk about goals that involve balance, not extremes. If you don’t like the current balance represented by any particular aspect of government, then work to change it. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you don’t recognize anything of value in our current system of government, as imbalanced as it may become, if you choose instead to provide support for America’s enemies, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

        It IS possible to dissent AND support at the same time. Support what’s good, and work to change what you think is bad. But as I said, slapping America in the face on its birthday is absolutely the wrong approach to be taken by anyone who still holds hope for this country.

        • BrentP
          June 30, 2013 at 7:09 am

          You haven’t kept up on recent changes.
          It takes a few steps.
          The effective result is exactly that.

          America’s enemies are domestic, not foreign. Have been for over a hundred years. The domestic enemies create and fund the foreign many of the foreign ones, the others are simply lashing out as a result of what was done in the name of the USA overseas.

        • June 30, 2013 at 9:11 am

          It’s not hyperbole, Dan. It is a statement of fact. The president has asserted that he has the authority to extrajudicially sanction the killing of anyone he or his minions deems a “terrorist.” No presentation of charges to a legitimate court; no due process of law.

          Facts, Dan.

          Just like the fact that people – US citizens – have indeed been rounded up, imprisoned indefinitely without any formal charges and in some cases, tortured.

          Facts. Not debatable.

          Your problem is you believe that only “evildoers” – as defined by the government – need to worry. Your operating premise is that the rule of law does not matter because “our” (as you style them) leaders are good people, absolutely trustworthy, who can be counted on to never abuse the power they have arrogated unto themselves. Except of course, they do abuse such power. And once such abuses are accepted in principle the abuses inevitably become widespread. Precisely because there is no longer anything to prevent them from becoming more widespread.

          Precedent becomes practice. Principles matter.

          That, Dan, is rational thinking.

          • Gil
            July 1, 2013 at 12:56 am

            Of course any American who switches sides becomes an enemy combatant and as such gives up any rights.

          • Eightsouthman
            July 1, 2013 at 1:08 am

            Amen Gil! Sar’uh, whut rights?

        • Jean
          July 1, 2013 at 3:34 am

          Ummm….

          So the mainstream reports on “kill lists” and killing of Americans via drones, NSA spying on *EVERYONE*, and … WE are exaggerating?
          SERIOUSLY?

          I’d guess your IQ makes Forest Gump comparable to Einstein.

          • Phillip the Bruce
            July 1, 2013 at 7:21 pm

            I was reading Thomas Sowell the other day. Not perfect, but a brilliant man. Among a collection of scattered thoughts, he said, “I have always been of the opinion that the sight of a pretty woman will lower the IQ of a man 20 points. If he does not have 20 points to spare, he will find himself in trouble.”
            So Dan must have been spending too much time at the beach.

          • Eightsouthman
            July 1, 2013 at 7:32 pm

            Philip, can’t let the old lady see that. She speaks to the vet of getting all of us fixed, says we’ll be smarter. My dog barked, the tomcat smiled and I laughed out loud. I’d go along with Sowell on that too. I’ve seen some guys I thought it halved their intellect. Not sure what box of sand Dan has had his head in.

          • Boothe
            July 1, 2013 at 8:42 pm

            Eight, Phillip – I have a long standing theory along the lines of Thomas Sowell’s opinion: A normal man does not have enough blood in his body to support an erection and coherent thought at the same time. If you’ve recently given blood, get a little dehydrated and then go to the beach like “eDan” apparently did (What’s that “e” stand for Dan?), it seems you will go into total denial. But don’t worry Dan, at least the money’s sound…

          • Eightsouthman
            July 1, 2013 at 8:50 pm

            Boothe, Philip, to quote Boothe “the money’s sound”. Is that kinda like the sound Ross Perot spoke of? That giant sucking sound?

    • June 29, 2013 at 8:47 pm

      Here we go with the “Our plantation is better than their plantation” non-sense. Go wave your flag, eDan, sing praise to your god and celebrate those few freedoms you have left, and leave those of us alone who wish to mourn the many more freedoms we’ve lost.

      • swamprat
        June 29, 2013 at 9:14 pm

        Eric and lberns- here, here.

        • Eightsouthman
          June 29, 2013 at 9:27 pm

          eric and lberns, Hear! Hear!

    • BrentP
      June 29, 2013 at 10:55 pm

      Edan, just because you don’t know about the police state, just because you don’t see it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

      You can choose to see it any time you want to. All it takes is a little empathy for people who aren’t like you. Or just doing some simple math.

      A dissident was just killed recently. An investigative reporter. It was done in an auto collision. It’s not the 1960s any more when they just shot people. Ever notice that these fatal accidents, suicides, lone nut assignations, and so forth never happen to the people that support the regime? Ever notice that?

      I think we are agreed that these people who write in opposition to the government, act against the government, have secrets that would hurt those in government, and so forth and so on are a much smaller population than those who support the government and are no threat to it or anyone in it. Yet, these freak deaths do not happen to them. The statistics are way out of wack for something that should be random chance. This indicates by itself that something beyond chance is occurring.

      • eDn
        June 30, 2013 at 2:58 am

        BrentP, you wrote:
        “A dissident was just killed recently. An investigative reporter. It was done in an auto collision. It’s not the 1960s any more when they just shot people. Ever notice that these fatal accidents, suicides, lone nut assignations, and so forth never happen to the people that support the regime? Ever notice that?”

        This smacks of conspiracy theory to me. Do you have any solid evidence that this alleged assassination was anything more than an auto accident? (“Connecting the dots” does not qualify, as the dots themselves are often as translucent as the theory.)

        Fatal accidents and suicides never happen to people who support the regime? Really? You must live on an interesting planet, but I happen to live on planet Earth, and all sorts of people have fatal accidents and suicides down here…

        • BrentP
          June 30, 2013 at 7:04 am

          All a believer in coincidence theory.
          The problem with coincidence theory is that coincidence should follow a standard distribution. However, it does not. When was the last time a solid government press release repeater killed in some freak accident or suicide? You should be able to name one. Drawing a blank? Yeah… they don’t seem to happen.

          A while back a candidate for Pakistan’s prime minister or whatever their top executive office is called was killed. Pakistan’s government came through with a standard ‘lone nut’ narrative. The US federal government came back with a statement of disbelief. Amusing as all get out considering how many people troublesome to the US federal government were killed or shot by lone nuts.

          The idea that those with power in the US federal government don’t kill when it benefits them to is also hopeless naive. It’s this idiotic ‘can’t happen here’. As if americans are somehow a better breed of humans. Sorry, they’re not.

          It’s not a question of proof of what they do, but rather the absurdity of the idea they don’t.

          • eDan
            June 30, 2013 at 9:01 am

            Brent, I guess it depends upon your mindset. The absurdity to me is for someone to think that everyone capable of exposing the facts in what would be an earthshaking story is somehow in on the conspiracy. A high ranking elected official ordering the killing of an American citizen on American soil would be the story of the century, easily topping Watergate or any overseas drone killing. We have thousands of reporters, correspondents, paid partisan investigators, would-be whistle-blowers, etc. who would give their right nut for such a story. Yet no credible evidence has ever emerged for any of these alleged “sanctioned killings”.

            Are you familiar with Occam’s Razor? Which is easier to believe – that these ordered killings go on all the time, in secret, using some sort of supposed network of assassins working for clandestine organizations within the government, with not a shred of credible evidence managing to emerge from the shadows… or perhaps this particular conspiracy theory is just that, a theory with no evidence? I don’t doubt that such things are possible in countries with no free press and no government oversight; but flawed as ours may be, we do have both, and either would be capable of at least exposing some sort of evidence if such things were really going on here. You may consider me naive for disbelieving a theory based on guesswork and innuendo, but I consider you gullible for starting with a desired conclusion to suit your mindset and working backward to try to fill in the missing links with nonexistent hypotheticals. Which conclusion is more consistent with the known facts?

            • June 30, 2013 at 9:05 am

              And for the past 15-plus years, anyone who suggested that perhaps the government’s story about TWA 800 was not quite credible was dismissed as a “conspiracy” nut, too.

              Oh, and how about this business of the government monitoring pretty much everyone’s private communications? Whoops! That turns out to be true, too.

          • BrentP
            July 1, 2013 at 2:27 pm

            Dan, the facts have been exposed many times. Over and over again. It might take 50 years but konspiracy kooks who listened to the leakers, whistleblowers, etc and so forth are eventually proven correct.

            Let’s pick one 1960s event. A few years ago a tape of E. Howard Hunt is released where he tells for a fact it was a CIA operation to eliminate JFK. Then there were leaks of people close to LBJ that clearly show LBJ was behind it with the help of the CIA… I could go on. The fact is your sort doesn’t want to listen to people who tell the story. Usually by the time the people tell the story decades have passed. It’s rare to see a young person leak anything…

            Which brings us to Snowden or Manning. What does the government do to people who tell the secrets? It destroys their character, their lives, puts them in some hole some place if it can physically get at them…. and then your kind says ‘there should be people telling the secrets’. Would you? Let’s say the secret you have is something important, but not important enough for the government to openly go after you because doing so would admit it. This is about the safest secret you can leak. Say you worked on recovered alien spacecraft. Now you go to tell the public? Who puts you on the air? Who covers your story? It’s not NBC. It might be coast to coast am. Nobody listens. You’re another kook.

            All the leaks you want and more have happened. The mainstream press doesn’t give two shits about it 99.9% of the time. Read the government press release, move on. Which is why the Snowden thing doesn’t make sense. Everyone in the ‘kook’ community knew the government was capturing just about everything twenty years ago. Snowden didn’t leak anything that people who paid attention didn’t know from countless other people who leaked it. Some the government went after others it didn’t.

            The simple fact is that your ‘where’s the leak’ is an argument made by those who are ignorant of the leaks. They happen regularly. Good luck getting anything beyond the audience of coast to coast am or maybe the readers of lewrockwell.com to even notice. It’s damn lucky that a supreme court decision goes further than that these days. The american public cares more about Kim Kardasian’s pregnancy than the supreme court decision that gutted the right to remain silent.

            So, now that the mainstream media covered Snowden where’s the apologizes for a decades of insults to those who believed the earlier leakers? No where to be found. Same with everything else that for whatever reason makes it to mainstream media.

            That’s how you keep a secret. By making anyone who believes it to be socially maligned, isolated, etc and so forth. Then it doesn’t matter who leaked what. The public won’t act on it because they don’t want to be a ‘kooks’.

            You bring up the ‘razor’ again. Another tired old argument that assumes random chance and stupidity is a more simple explanation than intervention. The problem is, if it’s random chance, they should be playing the lottery. The simplest explanation is people are acting in their own best interests and using whatever power they have to leverage outcomes to their advantage. That’s the simple explanation. Not people bumbling through life and by random happenstance the barriers to their wealth and power being removed by chance. It’s oddly enough the same sort of theory practiced by welfare statists…. help for the hapless… how I should pay taxes for the people that bought mcmansions on a mickyD’s fry cook paycheck.

            Sorry, life isn’t a string of random events. Most of them are cause and effect from decisions people make. The random shows up mostly in the odds of a certain outcome from a particular string of choices. Choose differently, change the odds. Live on half your salary odds are you aren’t going to lose your home if you lose your job. That sir, is the simple explanation.

    • June 29, 2013 at 11:18 pm

      eDan,

      Take it from someone who has seen another country. I lived in Venezuela for 8 years including the first year of Chavez’s rule. It is worse here because the govt “works” better, which means they inflict more misery on us. In Venezuela they are such corrupt bumblers that all they’re interested in is shakedowns & going on their merry way. I felt much less threatened by the govt there than I do here.

      While it is true that the mainstream media doesn’t cover the extent of police abuse that is no excuse for not knowing about it. This quick Google search turned up a boatload of it: https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=police+abuse&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#gs_rn=18&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=Q4qreyPZohYFJbwKyeeLCQ&pq=police%20abuse&cp=9&gs_id=1nz&xhr=t&q=police+brutality&es_nrs=true&pf=p&client=ubuntu&hs=YWQ&channel=fs&sclient=psy-ab&oq=police+br&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.dmg&fp=51e66454cdd306b4&biw=1215&bih=934

      Even when they enforce the law they are often raising revenue rather than protecting people, IE they are robbers engaged in legal plunder. Time to wake up & take off the rose colored glasses.

    • Mike in Spotsy
      June 30, 2013 at 12:04 am

      I have to address this part of your post, eDan: “just because you don’t like the guy who won the last couple of elections.” You apparently inferred some special animus on this site toward the current president without one iota of evidence. In fact, the evidence is directly to the contrary: the immediately preceding president has regularly been excoriated here, as have all of their predecessors whose names and deeds have come up. That statement of yours was thus nothing more than a gratuitous smear.

      Regarding the substance of your comment, I have to admit to having felt the same way once upon a time. However, the more I saw and read and thought over the years, the clearer it became that there is something very seriously wrong with this country. It is accelerating towards a totalitarian police state. No, it isn’t there yet, but it’s getting closer all the time.

      • eDan
        June 30, 2013 at 3:31 am

        Mike, I admit that I have not spent time on this site before, so if I mischaracterized your group as Right-wing conservative and anti-Obama, I apologize. (Perhaps it was all the gun references and seemingly anti-administration messages that led me to that conclusion.)

        In any case, I too feel that there are some things very wrong with the current state of our government, beyond any one administration. On one level, I feel that the military-industrial complex has been gradually taking more and more power from the people (I do still consider our government “people”). I do NOT feel that all politicians are alike, nor do I feel that people are powerless to affect change from within. But I recognize that while change is needed, we must be careful to assess the affects of our actions, which may not always be what we intend.

        Showing a complete disregard for America is not the answer. It only makes things worse. Identifying the problems is a good first step, but taking an all-or-nothing approach to the solutions is a plan doomed to failure. Anarchy is not the answer, nor is civil war. We need to change what can be changed, when it can be changed, and in the mean time, support the country as a whole rather than label it our enemy and fight against it. If we are not careful, if we assist in the destruction, there may not be anything left to improve later.

        • June 30, 2013 at 8:54 am

          Dan,

          I note you describe the entity in DC as “our” government. Please don’t speak for me. It is “the” government, as far as I am concerned. The “corporate disregard” you speak of is not for America, the country – or even its individual people. It is a “corporate disregard” for the control-freak collectivists who have transformed this country into something diametrically opposite of what was described in the Declaration of Independence.

    • June 30, 2013 at 12:49 am

      Dear Dan,

      “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.”
      — Ronald Reagan

      This is what Eric and admirers of his website, myself included, have been doing.

      That “one day” Reagan warned about, when freedom would become extinct in America, came years ago.

      But it looks like you took the blue pill.

    • Rick237
      June 30, 2013 at 1:15 am

      eDan — It is not hyperbole that the USA is the world’s leading police-prison state with the largest percentage of its population in prison. It is a fact. It is also a fact that honest, decent Americans are routinely given prison sentences of “20 to life”.

      Military-style assaults against peaceful humans are now taking place in every city and town across this country. That is a fact, not hyperbole.

      You say that our government does not torture people to death. You must be deaf, dumb, and blind if you have not heard of Gitmo or other secret prisons and torture sites. Torture is now an accepted policy. If you don’t believe me, just ask Bush-OBomba-Cheney or any of the millions of “good” citizens who support those thugs. Have you ever heard the word, “rendition”?

      Did you see the Boston police shutting down the city and ordering residents out of their homes at gun point because they were looking for a criminal? One thousand cops and SWAT teams looking for one suspect. That suspect was eventually located by a private citizen but that fact did not stop the police from publicly congratulating each other non-stop for several days.

      When I was young, we laughed at the “commie” governments because they stopped and searched their citizens for guns and contraband, demanded identification papers, and entered private homes uninvited. Clearly, the worm has turned.

      • eDan
        June 30, 2013 at 3:12 am

        Rick, you wrote:

        “Military-style assaults against peaceful humans are now taking place in every city and town across this country. That is a fact, not hyperbole.”

        Sorry, but it sounds like hyperbole to me. If you are talking about an occasional SWAT operation to apprehend a dangerous criminal based upon probable cause evidence that the perpetrator is a significant danger to the public, I might accept your assertion. But when you use hyperbolic terms like “against peaceful humans” and “every city and town across this country”, then that is not fact, but hyperbole.

        “You say that our government does not torture people to death.”

        Actually, I didn’t say that; I believe I said something about our government not having dictators torturing dissidents to death (the implication being American dissidents). I am well aware of Gitmo, and of our president’s attempts to close it, and of the obstruction encountered by the Republican House, and about the renunciation of Bush policies regarding torture. Progress is, in fact, being made in that area.

        “Did you see the Boston police shutting down the city and ordering residents out of their homes at gun point because they were looking for a criminal?”

        No, but what I did see was police requests to shelter in place, which were received extremely well by the residents of Boston, who wanted the bombers caught just as much as the police did. Yes, I believe your comments regarding “ordering residents out of their homes at gunpoint” is, once again, hyperbole.

        • Gil
          June 30, 2013 at 3:41 am

          I think Rick is referring to peaceful criminals.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          June 30, 2013 at 5:44 am

          eDan wrote, “an occasional SWAT operation”

          Misconduct Prevention Workshop

          “From a mere 3,000 per year in the early 1980s, the number has exploded to as many as 80,000. That’s an average of 228 per day. […]

          in Maryland, a study commissioned by the governor found that a full one-third of those raids don’t even result in an arrest.”

          http://lewrockwell.com/wiggin/wiggin-addison17.1.html

          So much for ‘hyperbole’, eDan.
          If you spent just a little bit of time researching, you will find that, yes indeed, it happens in every city and town across this country.

          eDan wrote, ““ordering residents out of their homes at gunpoint” is, once again, hyperbole.”

          Are you really that ignorant, eDan?.

          Here are some interviews with post-lockdown Bostonians:
          http://ericpetersautos.com/2013/05/04/post-lockdown-interviews/

          ‘Boston] “Police were filmed ripping people from their homes at gunpoint”
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8

          This is not a request:
          http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/watertown-gun-aimed-at-photogrphaer-923495_10200611106256641_1972215990_n.jpg

        • Rick237
          June 30, 2013 at 6:28 am

          “If you are talking about an occasional SWAT operation to apprehend a dangerous criminal based upon probable cause evidence that the perpetrator is a significant danger to the public,..”

          There are now over fifty thousand SWAT “operations” per year. More government goons breaking down doors in Amerika today than there were in Nazi Germany. The several hundred million peaceful human beings who value medicinal plants and extracts over the expensive, often dangerous crap produced by the government drug cartel (Big Pharma) are no more inferior to you and the “good” citizens of fascist Amerika than the Jews were inferior to the Nazis. Likewise for millions of peaceful humans who own guns and millions of other peaceful human beings who have been declared criminals by the thousands of laws that criminalize peaceful behavior and basic human rights.

          “But when you use hyperbolic terms like “against peaceful humans” and “every city and town across this country”, then that is not fact, but hyperbole”

          You are in denial. Millions of peaceful humans have been arrested and sent to prison. Hundreds of millions have been declared criminals.

          “I believe your comments regarding “ordering residents out of their homes at gunpoint” is, once again, hyperbole.”

          It was shown live on TV and is still available on the web. You could be the only person in the country who is unaware of these facts.

        • June 30, 2013 at 9:02 am

          Dan,

          Did you know the courts have ruled the cops can bust down your door without probable cause, without a court order – and that it is unlawful for you to resist?

          That a cop may – at his whim – perform a strip search of any person pulled over for even the most minor traffic offense?

          That you may be forcibly strapped down and have your blood drawn by a cop without your consent?

          The court also just ruled that any person arrested – note, not convicted, merely taken into custody – is subject to a forcible DNA sampling?

          Ah, freedom!

          PS: As others have pointed out, numerous peaceful citizens suspected of no crime whatsoever were forced from their homes at gunpoint in Boston by BDU-clad thugs. That is, cops.

          This also happened in New Orleans, when thugs in cammo seized peaceful the weapons of peaceful citizens who had done nothing illegal.

          These are all precedent-setting events, Dan. They happen sporadically at first, in just a few areas – and to just a few people. But inevitably, people become accustomed; it becomes routine. And before you know it, one day, you will wake up in a place such as the places you’ve read about in the history books.

          It can happen here, Dan. It already is happening here.

          • June 30, 2013 at 11:30 am

            I predict this guy will have a clover pasted all over his posts in the near future.

          • Hot Rod
            July 1, 2013 at 3:57 pm

            Eric and fellow enlighteknights as I was visiting Lew Rockwell today there was an article about how the Houston FBI was aware of a possible snipering of Occupy Wall Street protestors. Of course the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) provided us this delicious bit of misinformation. Since I’m a natural pessimist on anything the government provides to me in “information” more like “disinformation” here is what I interpret the government saying:

            “You who lead in opposition will be snipered in the future so don’t lead or organize again unless you want to be shot dead”

            Of course the problem with all reactionary type of threats is that natural law creates forces that are returned to the sender if implmented as the real world does not like rogue out of control forces (Law of Equilibrium). Therefore if they truly thought snipering peaceful leadership was the answer they’d have to know that would eventually all guerilla warfare is returned to sender.

            Again not that the won’t try it as they are certainly arrogant and stupid enough to think they really do own this country, but I see it as what it is a blatant threat. If it hadn’t been so “blank” this office “blank” this institution we are aware of “blank” wanting to sniper “blank” leadership then I’d call it act declaration of war against peaceful Americans which in war crimes amounts to treason by very definition. They are crafty and not ballsy enough yet to replace blank with real institution and real person because they understand they really aren’t in control. And you know what they never will be either as God is about to give smack down supernatural powers to his enlightened saints. Evil people are so weak. full of weak threats and even when they make good on them they are still weaker yet!

            Happy Fourth!!!!

          • Hot Rod
            July 1, 2013 at 4:17 pm

            Actually I don’t believe that Occupy Wall Street was anything more than a fake CIA co-opt color revolution in our own country. The idea of the FBI targeting their own fake leadership in either OWS or co-opted Tea Party organization is an absolute farse and laugh. Clearly the fakely induced FOIA was wholely a subsidiary of the ruling elite and the evil sithe praetorian guard. I’m guessing the fake threats against themselves is meant to chill freedom of expression and organization of real protests. Ho humm… We’ll see how well all their threats hold up when this whole orchestrated symphony hits the carpet under Soviet style central planning collapse, I know they hope and think they’ll reorganize it under a banner more evil but who knows the real God might have some interest in intervening and overthrowing the evil planners at their most opportune and planned trough. Gambling is very scary I imagine when you’re used to owning the world but just want a few more rubies to add to the collection. Before the planned collapse is attained they must first get the sheep to admit their own helplessness and fear and cower at any kind of dissent. Boring bluff and boring disinformation.

          • Hot Rod
            July 1, 2013 at 4:47 pm

            The thing with the government is when they make a dirty kills (like an assasination with blood flying about as in Kennedy) its made with an agenda to terrorize all the watchers and send a message to would be future oppositional leaders. There is silent assassination and you have to believe if they want somebody dead of natural causes they can do it. If you are an insignificant other as most of us truly represent to them then the government has much more effective ways to silence opposition. Its called character assasination. This means that they find you guilty of any number of ridiculous police state laws. They use your own documentation you provide them at threat of breaking the law by not providing self incrimination to prove in fact you are breaking the law. The idea is to cause you pain, ridicule, and isolation. This doesn’t work as well with people who aren’t too worried about being socially accepted. If you are employed and lacking capital like in young, they just make sure you have no employment. If you are middle aged they threaten taking your kids. If you are older they threaten to take your possesions and throw you into a senior home for being mental incompetent. Believe me the people on top have more ways to skin a hide then you could imagine so the idea that they’d pass out the assassination of top leaders is nothing more than trying to silence future leadership and BS. OWS was never real nor were the threats to it by so and so unnamed organization of government. The whole thing is beyond obvious and at the same time deplorable, but you know there is a reason why God’s people can’t be fearful and still be Godly (go to heaven). Beyond the all the threats and boogie masks they can put on I’m still not impressed, I know the true power of this universe is very ANGRY at what these evil people are doing to his people. There literally is going to be hell to pay by this people, both those active in it and the sleepers who just doing their jobs taking orders. I’ll watch as God unfolds his miracles right before our eyes and mountains become moe hills with his greatness. First though comes the belief that this world is truly capable of doing this with faith in its intelligence. That is your power.

        • Jean
          July 1, 2013 at 4:06 am

          NAMING it voluntary doesn’t MAKE it voluntary.
          Sheep to the core; Anyone else voting for Lamb for dinner?

    • Hot Rod
      June 30, 2013 at 6:05 am

      Yeah I’d like to see Gods people smack the fake idol and fake god in the face with an iron fisted glove like in the medieval days. Judgement day is near for sure, and like a thief in the night it will come very soon to all of us when we take our last breath any day now. Best not to be worshiping and serving evil men, idols, and lies. A man cannot have two masters and a flag worshiper already has his little god. Me I see something much more powerful to align myself with. Best of luck to the patriotic types if there is such a thing.

      Been studying EMP pulse delivery and thought Methyl would find this interesting:

      http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/it-works-computers-fried-by-emp-like-blast/

      Something along what he said about using magnetrons to knock down predators in a fictional future.

      I’ve been studying EMPs now for sometime and I got a DC way of deilvering huge doses of current to electronics. Best part is that shielding is nearly impossible.

      Anyways, happy fourth that we lost our fourth amendment a long time ago!

    • GrayCat
      July 1, 2013 at 1:42 am

      I am so sick of the presumption and denial by “patriotic” and state-loving control-freak collectivists who see no problem with government/the state — with being ruled. Yes, we are, increasingly every day, a police state with dissidents being tortured to death at the whim of iron-fisted dictators.

      What’s more, and even more diabolical, is that U.S. authoritarians presume to spread their dictatorship to all other nations on earth, and use its own people as disposable cannon fodder to do it with, too.

      Can you define “dictator”?

      Then please say how those in government – at whatever level, in whatever capacity – are not in fact dictators.

      Have you yourself checked out what it’s like in many other countries compared with this one? Even Communist China is much better on many things – and actually getting better, as its people are more and more engaged in free markets – than the U.S. government is. But that’s not even the point. The point is, the U.S. isn’t Communist China, or Korea, or Nazi Germany, or modern socialist Germany, or France, or the U.K., or India, or Iraq, or Iran, or ANY other state on earth.

      Therefore, it is unconscionable for the U.S. state to be what it is and is becoming. There is NO excuse for any of it, and CERTAINLY no possible “justification” when “compared with” any other state in the world!

      Why do we have to settle for more and more mediocre rather than dump the whole mess for the sake of individual freedom and excellence?

      If the U.S. is so great and wonderful, especially compared with “all the others,” then what, pray tell, is it doing outside its own borders and coasts? What justifies its expansion and aggression, for ANY reason?

      Evidently you believe that America, the U.S. government, the country, the nation, are all one and the same, with no distinction. Why?

      America is not the government/state. America is not the nation. The American people are not the U.S. government, nor vice-versa. The country is not the U.S. government, nor vice-versa. The nation is the presumed domain, the arbitrary and presumed geographical borders of the U.S. government; it’s what (falsely, criminally) claims the loyalty and treasure of the people, the country, for the government. It’s what puts the shackles and chains on the people, in the name of “patriotism.” It is against the people and their country.

      It’s time to stop undercutting the rights to liberty and freedom of every individual American in this country by cheerleading for the malevolent, corrupt, ravenous and bloody U.S. government and its nationalistic hubris and stupidity. It’s time to stop and think about what you mean by “we,” and why. It’s time to let go the blind arrogance that claims a right to rule your fellows under the banner of nationalism and “patriotism” and “society” as a unified mindless collective; “for the greater good.”

      Please tell us what particular means you’ve used to correct and improve the ills of the U.S. government. What have you ever accomplished for freedom through that glorious U.S. government and its methods of “redress”? How’s voting actually worked for you? Why are you content to let the mob rule you, just because “a majority” won a vote? Why is the majority right just because of numbers?

      Which “representative” in either the fed gov, or your state gov, or your local council, is YOURS? Who in government, fed or anything else, knows you exist and does your bidding? How many phone calls have you made to your “representatives,” how many letters, e-mails, face-to-face meetings have you made and had, and what has been the actual result of any of it? Who actually looks out for YOUR interests and ANSWERS to YOU? Who have you actually contracted with as YOUR agent?

      Why do you presume to tell anyone else that just working together to make things better is what’s needed, when your own experience and even the daily headlines proves you’re wrong?

      Why should any human being settle for evil government just because there are even more evil governments out there?! What kind of logic is that? It’s not rational, it’s a rationalization. Are platinum shackles and chains to be preferred over iron ones? Isn’t the issue the shackles and chains, and not their comparative metal composition?

      Please tell us what means you’ve found and successfully used to make things better, and why hasn’t that translated to the wider population that you presume to address and scold here? Pray tell! Lead us by your successful example, please.

      No one, by “turning their back on” official Fourth of July glorifications of government/state lies, corruption, and hypocrisy, is slapping any AMERICAN in the face. AMERICANS have been dealt bloody TKOs with brass knuckles by the U.S. government, and trapped by it, threatened by it, robbed by it, and enslaved on threat of death by it.

      Try not paying “your fair share” and see what that gets you. Try even telling the IRS that you don’t approve of this or that department, program, project, or activity, and thus withhold that part of your taxes, and see what that gets you.

      So, what, in your perfectly clear and rational vision, is THE WAY to accomplish the goal of the realization of the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence, of PERSONAL, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOM FROM GOVERNMENT/THE STATE?

      You ARE advocating that as the goal, aren’t you? If not, why should any American listen to you?

      We’re waiting. Each and every individual one of us.

      Can you at least answer these two little questions:

      Who among adult human beings is qualified to rule and make decisions for all other adult human beings?

      Who among adult human beings has a right to rule and make decisions for all other adult human beings?

      • Boothe
        July 2, 2013 at 5:30 pm

        eDan: GrayCat raised valid points and asked you a series of articulate and legitimate questions. Here’s your chance to offer us your specific solutions for the ills that have befallen America. No more generalities Dan, give us specifics and examples of the change you personally have effected using these methods. You came to our community and chastised us for our hyperbole. Now either offer up your plans and proposals to restore our lost Liberty or go away and shut your pie hole.

  24. PokeTheTruth
    June 29, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Eric, it’s patriots like you that will save America from these despots in Washington.

    We ALL have to pound them hard with our fingertips and tongues and expose their treachery at every opportunity. This nation belongs to the American people, not the international banks, not the multinational corporations and not the heads of foreign governments. We are America.

    On Thursday, July 4th, make one small gesture to show the elitists that we are in charge, not them. Don’t fear them, mock them with words and acts of ridicule and condemnation.

    1. Wear a whistle around your neck or a tee-shirt with a red, white and blue whistle printed on it.

    2. Write a simple phrase of liberty on the edge of a dollar bill or on a napkin at a restaurant, or leave it on a note at a bookstore in plain view.

    3. Replace the voice mail message on your cellphone or at the end of any email correspondence with your own message of freedom.

    If tiny Ecuador can stand up to the U.S. Government, so can we, the people.

    • Jean
      July 1, 2013 at 3:27 am

      Actually, I suggested to the woman that we (personally) put up tombstones for the amendments.
      Add COD to the normal items. Birth dates will be the same. Death dates I’m still researching, and not all 10 will actually be listed (though they could be.)

      I anticipate long term harassment here in MA…. Massholes are what they are….

  25. MoT
    June 29, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    I came face to face with the pledge of allegience nonsense when I visited a church last month. I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears that such drivel was being espoused in a house of worship. It was no different than having money changers in the temple and no less vile! I didn’t participate. No standing hand over heart or utterances of poisonous lies. It takes a truly conscious act of willful disobedience to the statist mindset but it can be done.

    • Eightsouthman
      June 29, 2013 at 3:07 pm

      MoT, it is truly astounding. As someone posted here saying they’d sung Battle Hymn Republic a couple weeks ago in church, I would ask if they also went to the Confederate cemetery and pissed on my ancestors graves.

      • David
        June 29, 2013 at 3:28 pm

        I DID NOT SING. Our church sang the song. I did not.

        My regret was that I didn’t either remain seated entirely or otherwise walk out, but I did not sing…

        The song is blasphemous evil. And although both sides had their flaws, the South was clearly less evil than the North when it comes to the War Between the States.

        Unless someone else other than me said something about their church singing that song, please don’t erroneously claim that I sang the song.

        • Eightsouthman
          June 29, 2013 at 3:42 pm

          David, no personal dig here, merely meant the song was sung in church, offensive enough in itself. I realize you were as offended as I. One reason the South lost was a large part of the population had no inclination to fight a war for any govt. The rightly saw it as separatist politics.

      • Jean
        July 1, 2013 at 3:24 am

        Just to be a dick, I’d point out that “The Battle Hymn of the Republic’ was used by both sides. ;-)

        As to the rest – well, most of “us” were educated badly by those with the best intents.
        :-(

        • Eightsouthman
          July 1, 2013 at 9:26 pm

          Jean, I had internet problems yesterday or I would have taken you to task over the BHR. It was written by Julia Ward Howe to note the union was fighting godless heathen for a greater good(abolishing slavery), meant to be disparaging to Southerners who neither started or wanted a war. Yankees carried “the mighty swift sword” and the criminal Sherman used it well after there was no need.

          • Jean
            July 2, 2013 at 3:18 am

            Agreed on Sherman – but he DID know how to win a war. We should learn from his example.

            Admittedly, 8th grade was a long time ago… But IIRC, Southerns sang BHR, too.
            John Brown’s Body lies a’mouldrin’ in the grave;
            His truth is marching on.

            Born in the North, but I’m not much of a Yankee. I’d guess it’s because my grandparents were immigrants… Brooklyn was the world.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 2, 2013 at 4:56 am

            Jean wrote, “he DID know how to win a war. We should learn from his example.”

            I think perhaps you could use a bit of a refresher:

            Making Saints of Monsters

            “Sherman would cover the political and media front” and “maintained personal deniability.” […] Sherman’s “religion” was […] All those who “resisted” were “reprobates who deserved death.” […] The fact that he also had to recruit and pay hundreds of thousands of European mercenaries, and invoke conscription, speaks volumes about how popular his war was among Americans of the Northern states. Moreover, it is absurd to label the bombing, pillaging and plundering of the entire South, along with killing its people by the hundreds of thousands, as “law and order” or the protection of life, liberty and property, […]

            Sherman’s goal was to commit genocide against the people of Georgia. Remember that his famous “march” was not met by any serious military resistance other than a few cavalry skirmishes. It was almost entirely a campaign of death and destruction of civilians and their property. […]

            Europeans, meanwhile, were comparing Sherman to the Marquis de Sade and predicting that future wars outside of America would likely be waged against innocent civilians, once Sherman’s “success” was understood. They also considered Sherman’s war crimes to be the mark of an unsuccessful military man. He did not establish any particularly stellar record as a military commander under fire; his “forte” was the mass murder of civilians and acts of terrorism reigned upon Southern cities with weapons of mass destruction.”…

            http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo140.html

            Sherman the Pyromaniac

            “Comments from diaries and letters written during and after the march to the sea show that many of his junior officers and soldiers had lost respect for their Commander-in-Chief.”…

            http://www.lewrockwell.com/jarvis/jarvis19.html

            There’s much more, all quite contrary to what you’ll see on The Discovery Channel, but I don’t want to clog the thread.

          • Jean
            July 2, 2013 at 2:16 pm

            Downshift,
            You’re correct that I was misinformed overall on Sherman.
            At the same time, I said what I emant, and I don’t believe in “plausible denaiability” or such.
            Your line, “Sherman’s goal was to commit genocide” is what I was aiming at: Total war. Scorched earth.

            THAT is how to deal with DC. Not just the politicians, either: the bureaucrats and lobbyists as well.

            >>I<< am NOT a Liberatarian at this point. Also not an anarchist, I'd guess. But I'm not willing to play the "nice" game any more, been alive too long, seen too much: it goes sour for the person who's playing by the rules. I've always been that person, until very recently. (I'm a slow learner – it takes "forever" to realize that it's not just a defective person here or there, it's about 90% or more of the population who'll screw you if they can, let alone whether or not they benefit.)

            As to Sherman's capacity under fire – that indicates to me, "worthless" (In military context. Made good fertilizer eventually.)

            But I don't pretend Sherman was a saint. To borrow a line from a movie (Lost in space): "Evil knows evil, doctor."

            I make no excuse and no justification: sometimes you need to fight fire with fire. Our armed forces (especially Marines, per Eleanor Roosevelt) aren't meant to win hearts and minds, they're meant to stop hearts and splatter minds. We hamstring only ourselves by pretending different. And it matters not a bit whether it's offensive or defensive: a thing's PURPOSE is the same regardless of how it's used. guns, for example: Meant to injure or kill. Good: Self-defense. Bad: Assault and murder of others. Hammers? Tool for shaping metal, driving nails, crushing things. Good: Build house, barn, church; fashion jewelry, pots, armor. Bad: Assaulting someone, destroying buildings, smashing things purely to infict damage.
            Fire: good for heating and cooking. Bad when used to burn someone alive.

            So – if TSHTF, we'll need to do some ugly things. We'll need to have people who identify with "us" rather than "them" and are willing and able to do violence on our behalf. But because these people will do evil FOR us – assault, murder, arson – we deem their actions (though not always them) as "acceptable." The enemy's people doing the same things? Those are atrocities.

            But without those monsters among us – OUR attack dogs, if you will – we are just sheep for the wolves to devour. It stinks, but – I WAS a sheep in that sense, until I realized the wolves WERE among us. I’d better be a wolf myself.

            A wolf can still be principled, you see. It doesn’t have to be rabid (indiscriminate). But a sheep cannot be targeted or precise: its only options are to run away or flail around and destroy everything.
            I agree with Sherman’s tactics, which might make me a little “rabid.” But we ARE dealing with a long-term insurgency. Depending on definitions and details, the arguments could be from 20 years, to … (2013-1786=227) 227 years, with the coup d’etat of the Constitution. (I’d argue the last few years are merely the start of the coup de grace.)

            Rabid types like me will be needed to polarize, to inflame passions, and to get the ball rolling. Most will burn out or burn up – and not make it through anyway. The problem is – the politicos who will stand at the back, and “lead”? Those are the ones that MUST be wiped out. They’ll use people like me, and worse, on both sides. Probably doing it now… A quiet “brake failure” here, a drug bust there, medical malpractice elsewhere.

            Maybe we need a little pre-emptive madness, a “backfire” if you will, to staunch the flames and preserve a few things.

            _____

            As to being principled – here’s a start:
            http://www.livingvalues.com/

            Summed up: Be in control of yourself. Defend those who cannot defend themselves. show compassion and mercy.
            My deviation:
            No mercy. If I have to get involved, there’s a problem, and I’m willing to use anything and everything, and fcuk the consequences – your child is your responsibility, for example; by stepping to me and falling, you’ve taught the child to behave far better than by being passive-aggressive (as was my family), or aggressive (my father). It’s an object lesson in the universal principle: Always someone faster, stronger, better. Penalty is death. Aggress at your own risk.

            (And I contradict myself sometimes, too. :-P I’ll be merciful to idiots and old people, for instance – disarm grandma instead of sticking a knife through her heart. Shoot junior in the arm or leg instead of head. But that’s a courtesy, not a mandate. Mandate is, stop the problem. Courtesy is, try to limit the damage.
            Like I said above, there people out there, in society, functioning – who are FAR worse than I am. Every “body” has both Cancer and Killer-T cells. I’ll let history figure out which I was, if it even notices.)

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 3, 2013 at 2:11 am

            Jean wrote, “>>I<< am NOT a Liberatarian at this point. Also not an anarchist, I'd guess."

            It looks like you might be a neo-con right now.
            Trying to break free, maybe? …Or maybe not.

            I'm not sure how to respond to the rest at the moment other than to say, I'm not identifying with you.

            Madness is still madness.
            Monsters are still monsters.

            Jean wrote, "And I contradict myself sometimes, too.”

            I noticed.

  26. Eightsouthman
    June 29, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    We were shooting fireworks one year on the Fourth at the grave of an old friend who had just died, only half a mile from town or so. Even though fireworks were banned in town, nobody paid attention and blasted away anyhow. It was a good give and take for awhile, town to cemetery so I pulled out the big stuff, my Garand loaded with tracers. I started blasting away straight up, impressive tracers everybody could see. When I put down my gun, the entire country was quiet, you could hear a pin drop. One friend said “Damn, what kind of gun is that?” I told her that was the gun her daddy carried all over Europe and slept and ate with. I think she gained a new respect for him, hopefully understanding this was the least powerful weapon on the battlefield. As a young child the first time I fired an .06 I started to realize it wasn’t all fun and games as tv would have had you believe.

    • Phillip the Bruce
      July 1, 2013 at 7:14 pm

      I had a friend years ago who was in the Quartermaster Corps during the Nam era. When he mustered out, a case of parachute flares disappeared. Every year on the 4th he would send one up. Drove the county Sheriff crazy trying to figure out where it came from.

  27. Marc Linn
    June 29, 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Old enough to remember many a flung cherry bomb, m-80 etc in a somewhat free-er era, I am always amazed at the mental gymnastics involved in “Independence Day” celebrations.

    Let’s see: we are so “free” that we have to watch the approved, permitted, and licensed fireworks display because we might hurt ourselves if we did our own? What?

  28. Joe
    June 29, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    While at a “meet and greet” of maybe a hundred politicos and Gov. Fob James years ago, I sat and remained silent during “the pledge” and no one seemed to even notice. I don’t like pledging to a piece of cloth, especially one that Public Law has designated (with the gold fringe and eagle atop the pole) as the flag of the corporate UNITED STATES, to be displayed beside the American flag, the result being that we no longer bother to display the American flag. Also, in the Pledge the idea that the nation is “indivisible” flies in the face of “consent of the governed” and “government of, by, and for the people,” I refuse to slander my Confederate great-great grandfathers who sought to leave in peace and avoid the tyranny of the regional majority in the U.S. House of Representatives. My patriotism is for the land and people (as individuals) of America, with the land and people in all the other parts of the globe running a close second. And while we’re at it, I don’t like our national anthem because it glorifies war, which is usually the result of an utter and complete failure of foreign policy. And it’s difficult to sing. We should change it to “America the Beautiful”. We should change our national symbol from a predator with forward looking eyes, talons, and flesh-ripping beak who is continually on the lookout for some smaller, weaker, non-threatening prey to the American Bison. Our buffalo is big and powerful, munches his grass, pretty much minds his own business, but if you fuck with the bull, you get the horn. Oh well, maybe after the reset.

    • MoT
      June 29, 2013 at 2:56 pm

      Eagle you say? Funny how empires love to use that bird. As the Romans of old did so do the “new” Romans of America.

    • David
      June 29, 2013 at 3:31 pm

      Very rarely will I say a war is justified, but I honestly believe 1812 was. England was attacking our ships. Were we supposed to just let them do it?

      And yeah, I don’t like the pledge either, although I haven’t always said no…

    • SM777
      June 29, 2013 at 4:50 pm

      There is a high probability that the USA will break up shortly due to the coming financial collapse. This happened in the former USSR and a large group of russian economists predicted this back in the year 2000. Something to do with the worthless FRN’s……………….

      The southern states might actually secede again, but this time I don’t think the northern states will care since the central and western states will likely go their own way as well.

      The militarization of the local police depts. and anti-Constitutional laws like the “Patriot” act, FINCEN(T), FATCA(T) and the NDAA are just the central govt. beginning it’s death throes.

  29. Philip LaFrance
    June 29, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    As a recipient of SSDI I have heard words such as leeches and parasites to describe folks such as myself. This a broad brush used to compare all people in my situation to the free Obamaphone crowd. Suffice it to say we are the problem not the solution. I have never felt that this help I receive is “owed” to me and I have never abused. In fact I am grateful as there was no were else to turn(thanks to government policies).

    I say rubbish. If I had my druthers I’d rather be a contributor to society.

    What is most distressing is that the anti-government idealogues do not think we can be supporters of liberty and the constitution. Again, I say rubbish. I voted the Constitution Party in 2012 and Libertarian in 2008. I don’t support the un-ending wars, and It is my sense that the Federal Government has gotten out of control with its eye in the sky and worry myself that they are watching and listening to me.

    I see what the cops are doing with their combat tactics. I see what the IRS is doing to Obama’s enemies, I don’t need a crystal ball to know where it is heading.

    The darkness and corruption in high places is all to clear to me and if called by God or my fellow lovers of liberty to defend the Constitution I shall be there. God Bless America.

    • June 29, 2013 at 2:56 pm

      Phillip, you have a point but you’re a tiny minority of the dependents on the welfare/warfare state.

    • June 29, 2013 at 3:48 pm

      As a recipient of SSDI I have heard words such as leeches and parasites to describe folks such as myself.

      I don’t necessarily have a problem with folks who’ve had money extorted from them there entire working life getting as much of it back as possible. Get it while you can, because this bread and circuses folly isn’t going to last forever

      As far as fidelity to a piece a parchment written by a bunch of guys who were dead long before I was born, I say hogwash. That was their contract. I have zero obligation to follow it or comply with the edicts of that gang of parasitic thugs who claim lordship over a huge chunk of real estate surrounded by imaginary lines in the dirt that I happened to be born within at some point in space/time.

      Larken Rose puts it best:

      I’m Allowed To Rob You

  30. June 29, 2013 at 10:38 am

    Nice article, it points out what isn’t obvious to many, that we have to stop supporting the beast before we talk about resisting it. After we stop celebrating dependence day we can move on to stopping participating in elections. See “Principled Nonvoting: The Beginning of Disengaging From the State” http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2010/09/principled-nonvoting-beginning-of.html

    Let us not forget Henry david Thoreau whose Civil Disobedience http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/WALDEN/Essays/civil.html was not paying taxes:

    “Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison…. If any think that their influence would be lost there, and their voices no longer afflict the ear of the State, that they would not be as an enemy within its walls, they do not know by how much truth is stronger than error, nor how much more eloquently and effectively he can combat injustice who has experienced a little in his own person. Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence. A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight…. If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood. This is, in fact, the definition of a peaceable revolution, if any such is possible. If the tax-gatherer, or any other public officer, asks me, as one has done, “But what shall I do?” my answer is, “If you really wish to do anything, resign your office.” When the subject has refused allegiance, and the officer has resigned his office, then the revolution is accomplished.”

  31. G3Ken
    June 29, 2013 at 7:18 am

    Here in NY, we now have 311 for any non-911 worthy complaints. basically a “Rat Phone”. They actually have signs that say “Call 311 to report illegal fireworks”. Undoubtedly, the same will happen when Cuomo’s “SAFE Act” that bans previously LEGAL magazines and mandatory registration of previously LEGAL “assault weapons”.

    Now we have commercials that go something like this:

    Man 1: “See that guy over there?”
    Man 2:”Yeah?”
    Man 1: “Well, he’s been looking around a lot, but not looking AT anyone”
    Man 2: “Yeah and he has his hands in his pockets. What are you doing?”
    Man 1: “I’m texting 1-800-I AM A USELESS PUSSY”

    Then the voice-over: “Report all suspicious activity to ***********. Remember, we’re all in this together. Fighting terror saves lives”. I really wanted to vomit.

    But hey, being a wimp isn’t limited to NY. The “Boston Strong” t-shirts should be exchanged for the “Boston Weak (bladder)” adult undergarments. After a whopping 3 or 4 people died, the “strong” people of Boston rolled over like little puppies, allowed their city to be shut down, were forced to retreat into their homes and then suffered the indignity of anti-4th Amendment searches. Capt. John Parker is rolling in his grave.

    • David
      June 29, 2013 at 3:33 pm

      Does this law still not have the cop exemption? Us New Yorkers could potentially have fun with this…

    • Phillip the Bruce
      July 1, 2013 at 7:07 pm

      Of course all gunverment programs are inherently contradictory and self-defeating. The Department of Motherland Security says, “If you see something, say something.” Then they get their knickers in a twist when Snowden actually does it.

      • Mithrandir
        July 8, 2013 at 1:42 pm

        Quote of the day.

        Apparently only certain things are worth mentioning.

  32. Nick
    June 29, 2013 at 6:42 am

    Dear King George,

    We are sooo sorry! Please forgive us! Please…We want you back! Please take us back!
    Puleeeeeze! We know not what we do!

    Yours,
    Serfs – North America Region

    • June 29, 2013 at 9:19 am

      As has been observed many times, George III was not even in the same league as a tyrant as the current hydra in DC.

    • truk44
      June 30, 2013 at 3:25 pm

      Dear lowly North American serf,

      No! You’ve made your bed – now lie in it!

      Yours sincerely,

      George “Mad as a box of frogs” the Third

  33. Ross Nelson
    June 29, 2013 at 6:18 am

    No, we won’t let the Fourth pass unnoticed this year. We never do. It symbolizes our independence from the most powerful nation on earth. As we have for years, we will read the Declaration of Independence out loud, in its entirety. Our children will understand what it means. We’ll read Patrick Henry’s “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death” speech, which should stir the heart of any American.

    We might even read Emerson’s “Concord Hymn,” a thing of beauty. We will remember the America that was, celebrate it, and rededicate ourselves to restoring it–or at least keep it alive in our minds.

    • June 29, 2013 at 10:49 am

      Ross, I’d respectfully suggest that you read Patrick Henry’s greatest speech “Shall Liberty or Empire Be Sought?” http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Henry%27s_speech_in_the_Virginia_Ratifying_Convention
      His objections to the then proposed constitution were truly prophetic. Some excerpts:

      The honorable gentleman who presides told us that, to prevent abuses in our government, we will assemble in Convention, recall our delegated powers, and punish our servants for abusing the trust reposed in them. O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone…. Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation, brought about by the punishment of those in power, inflicted by those who had no power at all? You read of a riot act in a country which is called one of the freest in the world, where a few neighbors cannot assemble without the risk of being shot by a hired soldiery, the engines of despotism. We may see such an act in America.

      A standing army we shall have, also, to execute the execrable commands of tyranny; and how are you to punish them? Will you order them to be punished? Who shall obey these orders? Will your mace-bearer be a match for a disciplined regiment?

      ********************

      When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: liberty, sir, was then the primary object…. But now, sir, the American spirit, assisted by the ropes and chains of consolidation, is about to convert this country into a powerful and mighty empire….Such a government is incompatible with the genius of republicanism. There will be no checks, no real balances, in this government. What can avail your specious, imaginary balances, your rope-dancing, chain-rattling, ridiculous ideal checks and contrivances? But, sir, we are not feared by foreigners; we do not make nations tremble. Would this constitute happiness, or secure liberty? I trust, sir, our political hemisphere will ever direct their operations to the security of those objects.

      • Ross Nelson
        July 1, 2013 at 6:48 am

        I quite agree. Patrick Henry is listed with the Anti-Federalists. He had some strong and acute things to say about the proposed Constitution. But we’re talking about the Declaration of Independence, which was and still is a glorious day for America.

    • June 29, 2013 at 1:58 pm

      No, we won’t let the Fourth pass unnoticed this year. We never do. It symbolizes our independence from the most powerful nation on earth.

      Sigh. Why does that nonsense keep getting trotted out? Just to talk up an achievement which doesn’t even need it? Here are some facts about the situation in the late eighteenth century:-

      – The strongest powers were Russia, Turkey and China, even though the first was still growing and the others were getting decadent. They didn’t have any significant out of area capability, though.

      – Of those powers that did have a significant out of area capability, Holland and Portugal were minor by then and France and Spain – each stronger than Britain – had other commitments in continental Europe that usually left Britain with the strongest net out of area capability.

      – However, the diplomatic situation after the Seven Years War had left Britain isolated, and without significant continental distractions France and Spain allied with the rebels effectively.

      – Although Britain was stronger navally than either France or Spain, it was weaker militarily and was not stronger navally than both of those combined. That meant that their military reinforcement could always get through and that they could sometimes cut off British access by sea (as at Yorktown).

      The only big deal was the rebels hanging in until support arrived – a very real achievement, though helped by their terrorist tactics and perfidious seizing of strong points – and the rather remarkable turn of events that didn’t leave France and Spain in place afterwards (the way France had managed after intervening in Corsica just before that), or either Britain or France after another war just a little later (the usual pattern in that century, which was fortuitously broken by the Revolutionary Wars and then the Napoleonic Wars giving the new country enough time to grow strong enough for self defence).

      We will remember the America that was, celebrate it, and rededicate ourselves to restoring it–or at least keep it alive in our minds.

      No, you won’t, because that is a myth that never was true. See my earlier comment. It may be worth hoping for in the future, but it is logically impossible to remember it.

      • Ross Nelson
        July 1, 2013 at 6:52 am

        China was a non-entity at the time, as well as Russia. Poor Britain, it only had the greatest empire on earth at the time and an unparalleled navy.

        I didn’t understand your last comment. Are you saying that the America that was, never was?

    • Shazaam
      June 29, 2013 at 5:49 pm

      The 4th symbolizes our independence from what was then considered unbearable tyranny. Today, we would celebrate and welcome such light handed regulations and taxation.

      The one facet of the 4th celebrations I’d like to see more of, is the reading aloud of the Declaration of Independence. For obvious reasons, that particular 4th of July activity has fallen out of favor.

      If everyone heard the Declaration of Independence at least once a year, they just might view “Mordor on the Potomac” in a new light despite all the giveaways promised by El Presidente and the Congress-critters.

      Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/v/qa98hmDvjl0&hl=en_US&fs=1&amp; (title is Mourning the 4th of July)

      • Phillip the Bruce
        July 1, 2013 at 7:04 pm

        I’d even settle for hearing the 5th Dimension’s musical version on the radio. I still have it – on vinyl no less.

  34. G3Ken
    June 29, 2013 at 5:46 am

    I enjoy reading your musings more every day. I was never a clover, always a “clover-hater”, particularly the breed who drive in the left lanee above the speed limit but THEY decide exactly how much over you can go. Anything above what they decide is acceptable will result in refusal to move and often to slow down. I bring this up, because while I was never a clover, I WAS an ex-military man who despised my Mets First Baseman’s refusal to honor the “national anthem”. I thought him a no good Puerto Rican scumbag. How wrong I was and how amazing a little education can be.

    I live on Long Island (until July 8th, anyway) and offered to save ny daughter $500 by flying out of Dulles to Norway rather than JFK or Newark and drive her down and pick her up. Te AC didn’t work in my 2002 Caravan and I had a rear tire literally blow apart on the way home after dropping her off on the outbound trip.

    It was the best day I had ever spent with her. The day she went home was the second best. We talked about the direction of America, freedom, the importance of knowledge, personal sovereignty, resisting authority even when it makes things more inconvenient and yes, even clovers. She now knows who Eric Peters is and what a “clover” is.

    She must have enjoyed our six hours together as much as I, for on the way back I was peppered with questions. Some, sadly, a soon to be college junior should know. She had no idea who our senators, governor, congressman etc. were. I told her I couldn’t believe she didn’t know those things, but praised her for WANTING to know. Now she does. I have always been proud that she stands her ground when teachers and professors are wrong and backs them up with facts. While she didn’t know the politicians, she knew the issues.

    She spoke of the ridicule she faced in school with her pro-gun, pro-constitution stances and how everyone said she was a “moron” when she said Lance Armstrong was a cheat. Being a cyclist and having connections in that community, I knew the truth years before it was even questioned and explained to her how and why.

    And yes, while New Yorkers generally suck, it seems like people in Northern Virginia and those with Maryland plates are some sort of government-created drones when they get in their cars. Even my daughter said, “these a**holes cannot drive”. Another convert to the Eric Peters club.

    I no longer go for all the jingoistic American exeptionalist nonsense, and although I am immensely proud of his accomplishments and hard work, I lament the fact that my son followed my father and my footsteps into the ridiculous machine that is the U.S. military. He is an officer, unlike my Dad and I, and is attending flight school in Pensacola. I have tried to get him to understand that there is NOTHING COOL about dropping a 500lb. bomb on someone half a world away. Maybe he’ll get it, but for now, I don’t think so. When he came home on leave just before flight school, he got a tattoo on the inside of his bicep depicting a dove with a USMC sword piercing its body. I thought he was the smarter of the two kids.

  35. gruhn
    June 29, 2013 at 5:08 am

    And watch as LEED (“oh no, it’s just meant to be some friendly optional guidelines”) becomes required code in more and more places. You need a certain number of credits. What’s one way to get a credit? Have a LEED certified professional on your project? How does a person get LEED certified? Give a private company money.

  36. DownshiftFast5to1
    June 28, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    Sparklers are illegal in New York? They really are insane:

    “The bill, A6695A, seeks to amend a section of the penal law by reasonably striking “from its definition of ‘Fireworks’ and ‘Dangerous Fireworks’ sparkling devices, novelties, toy caps, and similar devices…” The bill would allow sales of such radical terrorist tools from June 1st through July 5th, as well as between December 26th and January 2nd in all counties, with the exception of New York City’s five boroughs.” …

    http://www.infowars.com/sparkler-terrorism-bloomberg-urges-cuomo-to-veto-fireworks-bill/

    Can they even say, “Boo!” out there?
    It’s probably assault.
    They really have gone quite mad.

    • June 28, 2013 at 7:06 pm

      Yes I’m proud to be an American! Where at least I know I’m freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

      Cue chunks of last night’s supper, spitting through clenched teeth…

      • Swamprat
        June 28, 2013 at 11:53 pm

        LOL. I don’t think that that song will be played for much longer. It should be obvious to everyone except the brain damaged “low information” voters that since the TSA started taking off our pants and it was revealed publicly the NSA is recording everything that we aren’t. I wonder if attendence numbers for 4th events are going to be way down this year. Or will people just continue to pantomime?

        • Jean
          June 29, 2013 at 5:14 am

          Only two things are infinite: The Universe, and human stupidity. And I’m not sure about the former. -Einstein
          They’ll be there. Their drug of choice is COMPLIANCE.

          Sheeple. Herd animals. Fodder, nothing more.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            July 2, 2013 at 10:01 am

            I thought their drug of choice was “flavour of the moment”, pretty much why all these talent and cooking shows are getting enough air time to force the rest of us running for the hills..

            Then again – why can’t they have both? ;)

          • Jean
            July 2, 2013 at 1:05 pm

            ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N ,
            I think perhaps that’s saying the same thing a different way. Compliance = part of the herd = flavor of the moment, if you will.

            Ever read Dante’s Inferno? These are the ones in the first level, following the banner through the air, wherever it goes.
            ;-)

      • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
        July 2, 2013 at 10:13 am

        Similar story here I found yesterday:

        http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/26/bloomberg-if-sparklers-are-legal-the-terrorists-will-win

        Same goes for screwdrivers, car keys, fuel and paper clips. Anything we can buy, so can a supposed terrorist.

        Maybe it’s time to march on Bloomberg’s office with an assortment of inanimate objects in hand, confiscate his pen and ask if it’s safe for us to use all these items and, if he received prior congressional permission to be in possession of such a dangerous writing implement before he’s locked up for suspected terrorism.

        But – that’s the peaceful way to tell him he’s a moron..

  37. DOH!
    June 28, 2013 at 5:30 pm

    Ever get the feeling certain countries feel emboldened by a weak nancy bathhouse queen dear leader:

    http://breakingdefense.com/2013/06/20/top-official-admits-f-35-stealth-fighter-secrets-stolen/

  38. Creepy Ass Cracka
    June 28, 2013 at 5:26 pm
  39. DownshiftFast5to1
    June 28, 2013 at 3:36 am

    So i wonder: What’s your “national anthem”?
    The next time I’m in a place they play the anthem of the unitedstate (if I don’t just sit, like Julie heroically did) I think I’ll stand and sing this song:

    I think maybe I will totally laugh with joy if the person next to me starts singing Sammy Hagar’s, I Can’t Drive 55!

    • liberranter
      June 28, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      Aw, why not Gary Lewis and The Playboys’ original (proof-positive that not everything recorded during the mid 60s was a brilliant work of art)?

      I think if I had to choose a new “national anthem” for today’s Amerika, it would be this:

  40. DownshiftFast5to1
    June 28, 2013 at 1:36 am

    I won’t be Barbecuing on the fourth of July, I’ll likely just be grilling out. There’s a difference.
    I won’t buy fireworks or a box of sparklers this year as I have before. There’s nothing to celebrate.
    I used to enjoy the fourth of July, back when I thought I was living in a free country. It really was a wonderful time in my neighborhood… if a person didn’t know better… maybe they Would think they Were in a free country? It didn’t appear to be about Nationalism back then, it seemed to be about Individualism. Blissful ignorance, for an evening, or until someone stepped out of the boundaries our masters set for us all, or saw what happened to others?

    If i were younger and still hung around guys who liked to do crazy fun stuff, maybe I’d do something with an Animal House twist to it? …Make a float and enter it into the July military worship parade, on the outside make it all red white and blue stereotype so it passes inspection, only, it’d all be painted onto blinds of some kind so that part way into the parade you could flip things and have a whole nother message that might cause people to think, and the people on the float could rip off the outer part of their costumes to reveal another truer meaning, maybe add a web address or two alongside some cool/or ugly designs or some type of shocking artwork? I imagine some of the other guys could have made that real flashy and smooth lookin’.

    Or, on the low budget end, take some banners and signs to the parade that said how things were,… but I imagine the only thing that would accomplish is getting your ass kicked or earn a night or three in jail.

    Ah, the possibilities. … But I don’t hang around those guys anymore. I’ll just stay at home and tend to my own and let the Clovers learn on their own the hard way. I might talk to one or two, if I come across one, and I feel like it. Some say that’s proselytizing,… as if that’s a bad word. I’ll just have to try real hard not to come across as preaching,… people Do Not like that, as I have learned.
    Nothing seems to shut down their thinking and listening abilities faster than if they feel like they are being preached at. And I sure as heck don’t want to be preaching at anybody.

    I’ve tried just dropping hints, but it sure does seem like Cloverettes don’t pick up on hints for anything. So it’s got to be just a step up from merely dropping hints, and a step short of preaching. Seeking, that point, is that fine tuning? Like setting the timing on an engine?

    I still can’t get over the fact that the cops stop and frisk people in NYC and people are ok with that. Seems to me there’s not anything more generally totalitarian than that. Well, maybe – The Wall – being resurrected here? Or being killed by a drone without a trial? Or the government torturing people. Or gun ownership being criminalized and demonized, or…

    Anyway, I imagine some excitement will be had by the people out there with their cameras filming the grotesque road blocks and such happening this week. Those filmmakers got balls. Problem is, I doubt the Clovers watch those videos, and if they do, will they cheer?

    If I had loads of money, maybe I’d offer a prize to the young people to come up with some float ideas or other message broadcasting ideas. With the high level of teenage unemployment, I’m sure there’d be lots of takers. Wouldn’t it be funny if…

    – THIS MESSAGE IS BEING TERMINATED BY THE BETTER HOMES AND THOUGHTS DIVISION OF THE NSA *in conjunction with the DEA FBI EPA and FDA –

    – ALL PERSONS READING THIS WILL BE INVESTIGATED BY THE IRS DIVISION OF ENFORCEMENT –

    – ROUST! ROUST! ROUST! -

    • clover
      July 5, 2013 at 10:02 pm

      CloverDownshiftFast5to1 yes our lives have changed. You are not going to change that we have terrorists within hours of you by plane. Back in your early days all we had to worry about was a nuclear bomb flying from Russia. We did not have the vast amount of road rage drivers we have now, we did not people that felt it was their right to tailgate and endanger others. We did not have the number of people weaving through traffic like we have now. We now have people that like to cut people off from merging onto the highway and from turning in front of them. The aggressive and road rage drivers now say to others to get the hell out of their way because they have more rights than others. You are right in that things are getting worse. It is not getting worse because our freedoms are declining but because people feel they have the freedom to endanger others and from the many posts they have posted it shows they believe others need to be delayed for minutes so they are not delayed one or two seconds. You are right, things were far better 30 years ago! We did have driver courtesy back then but now there are a vast number of people that feel they have the freedom to endanger and delay others by minutes.
      Now we have a number of people who applaud people that shoot at innocent cops doing their jobs.

      • BrentP
        July 6, 2013 at 3:55 pm

        What a sucker. A chump. Did it ever cross your mind to ask why these ‘teeerrrooorrists’ are interested in the USA instead of say Sweden? Did it every cross your mind to try and figure out how the Soviet Union became a threat? Of course not. You just cower and want more government. Rewarding the very people who create the situations that make you afraid.

        • clover
          July 6, 2013 at 5:05 pm

          CloverYes Brent Sweeden in your mind is a world power right up there with the USA and China? You are so dumb you should not be driving ever.

          • July 6, 2013 at 5:18 pm

            Ah yes, Clover – the heady crotch fumes of a “world power.” The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were world powers, too.

            Sweden, on the other hand, is not hated by the rest of the world. Hence, no “terrah” problems in Sweden.

            He made a desert and called it peace

            – Tacitus, on Caesar

          • July 6, 2013 at 5:21 pm

            PS: I’m prepared to meet you at VIR for an objective test of our relative abilities as drivers. I am certain Brent would welcome the opportunity to stack his skills as a driver up against yours as well.

            You have no credentials to comment on driving – or anything else – except perhaps being a good collectivist authoritarian.

          • BrentP
            July 6, 2013 at 5:57 pm

            Clover, your loving government tells us ‘they hate us because we are free’. Lots of countries as or more free than the USA aren’t attacked. Furthermore, nobody attacks China Why?

            China goes around the world looking to secure natural resources as does the USA. China’s government and corporations offer a big pile of cash to develop the natural resources. The US federal Government points a gun and demands bargain prices for insider corporations or else.

            Gee… one might wonder what the difference is. People given a way to work their way out of poverty or to work hard and still be impoverished…. that would anger normal people. But you in your clover-mind they have a problem if they get angry for being treated so poorly.

          • clover
            July 6, 2013 at 7:07 pm

            Eric you do not get it! Testing your driving in a controlled environment is nothing like the real world driving. Let us say that Brent could beat me in a controlled test. Who the hell cares if he is constantly within inches of other cars always needing to slam on his brakes and always having near accidents. I never do in real life. You tell me with such facts who should we have on the highway? You are a million times more likely to push someone off the road or have head on collisions than I would because of your law breaking ways. You call yourself a better driver? How could that be? The better driver drives in a way to stay out of confrontations with other vehicles. That is not you or Brent or Dom!Clover

            • July 6, 2013 at 7:29 pm

              Poor ol’ Clover!

              Never wants to put up – but won’t ever shut up!

              If I were “a million times more likely” to wreck, how come I don’t, Clover? How come I manage to drive the way I do – ignoring idiotic laws on a daily basis for decades – without so much as scratching the paint?

              You know nothing about cars – or driving. You’re just an Internet troll – a nobody. A nonentity. A sad little authority-worshiping control-freak cretin who won’t even use his (or her) real name.

              Pathetic.

          • clover
            July 6, 2013 at 8:27 pm

            CloverOK Eric I have had no accidents! How about you? How many cars have you totaled? I guess that answers it!

            • July 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm

              We know nothing about your driving record, Clover. You’re too much of a coward to even use your real name, much less tell us anything about yourself. All we know – from the twaddle you’ve posted – is that you’re a small-minded authoritarian. In all likelihood, you’re a handicapped old lady – or a 14-year-old girl – who doesn’t even drive at all.

          • BrentP
            July 6, 2013 at 10:04 pm

            Damn Clover you change directions fast. Does your neck hurt from that?

            I don’t understand how the fact you don’t like how I avoid crashing into rude selfish drivers like you has anything to do with terrorism, foreign policy, or anything else that was under discussion in this branch of the thread.

            But since you bring it up, all I want you to do Clover, is do exactly to a cops what you’ve defended other drivers doing towards me. Go out and do that. Have a camera facing out your rear window. Share the results.

          • clover
            July 6, 2013 at 11:51 pm

            CloverYes Brent, I did some research on the great country of Sweden which you say is so good. You are correct. They are working towards zero traffic deaths on their roadways. You can get 2 years in prison for drunk driving. They automatically ticket you if you are traveling 7 kph or more over the speed limit. They have speed limit cameras, tailgating cameras and red light cameras. They have heavy enforcement of tailgating. They have heavy enforcement of aggressive drivers. In other words Brent, you would be in jail there if you drive like you do here. What a great country!

            Yes terrorists might not go after a country like Sweden. It is smaller than 10 of our states. It is smaller than the city of New York.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 7, 2013 at 12:15 am

            I really don’t see how the driving rules of Sweden have anything to do with why the terrist don’t attack Sweden, but ok.

            Isn’t Sweden a communist type nation?

            It looks like they are working on advancing the police state there too. And you see that as a good thing. I’m not surprised.
            It seems to me you would have been very happy in Austria when it was occupied by the Germans.

            Did you also notice in your research the other countries that are doing away with road signs? …How can that be?

            And you remember how we talked about how over in the UK somewhere they are discussing lowering the alcohol limit so people can visit the pubs and drink more than a pint? A pint that is way more than a simple glass of beer here in the unitedstate.

            No, I think you forgot that conversation.

            Anyway, thanks for indirectly answering a question I had years ago, I never understood why people persecuted Hester Prynne

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter

            I do now.
            She was a danger to the community.

          • mithrandir
            July 7, 2013 at 12:37 am

            Eric,

            That comment fits clover to a T.

            Never wants to put up – but won’t ever shut up!

            Based on Clover’s writing he is bitter towards others and gets joy through passive-aggressive actions towards others.

          • clover
            July 7, 2013 at 1:02 am

            CloverDownshiftFast5to1, I did some more research. Here is a link to traffic accident and fatality rates by country. I then started looking up the traffic enforcement of the countries that had a far better rate than the US. The thing they had in common is more enforcement. Most of them had random testing for DUI! You can talk signs all you want but go and look at the facts!

            http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/

          • clover
            July 7, 2013 at 1:32 am

            CloverDoes it really matter Eric? I am sure a “a handicapped old lady – or a 14-year-old girl” would be driving better than you on a day to day basis anyway.

            • July 7, 2013 at 9:42 am

              Yes, Clover, it matters.

              It matters because you have no standing to comment on anything. Because you have no qualifications to do so. You’re an expert at nothing; an Internet troll. Your posts are unintelligent – and often unintelligible. You’re permitted to get through solely for the entertainment value – and for educational purposes. To provide an example of the imbecility of our age.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 7, 2013 at 2:51 am

            There are lies.
            There are damn lies.
            Then there are statistics.

            … Most statistics were made for Clovers and tyrants.

            The Moon Is Down.

          • BrentP
            July 7, 2013 at 5:51 am

            Now Clover is acting like Rainman.

            They hate us because we are big and free…. not because Clover’s loving government is killing their relatives and supporting governments that keep them in poverty. No… it’s because we are big and free… lol.

          • BrentP
            July 7, 2013 at 5:54 am

            Germany is safer than the USA, therefore speed limits should be removed from much of the US interstate system. Keep right except to pass should be practiced and enforced. Your cite proves it.

          • clover
            July 7, 2013 at 1:49 pm

            CloverSo you say that Germany is safer than the US? I would agree! They do not allow tailgating, weaving through traffic, no speeding in places around cities where there are speed limits, they have red light cameras, tailgating cameras, speeding cameras, and they have strict DUI laws . No passing on the right and no cutting someone off from merging. If you want things like in Germany I say bring it on because many drivers that are here would be in jail if they kept driving like they do now.

          • BrentP
            July 8, 2013 at 2:26 am

            Clover, there is no/little tailgating or weaving in Germany because people keep right except to pass. Like most american control freaks you cause your own problems and then demand enforcement to combat the symptoms there from.

          • Will
            July 8, 2013 at 6:00 am

            You never lived in Germany. There is ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE tailgating speeding driving drunk weaving in traffic. The Germans don’t cry about it like the stupid brat American liberal. You do realize that the person merging has to yeild the right of way…Riiiiight? There are sooo mant stupid and weak little liberals that think they gain the right of way just because they signaled.

            • July 8, 2013 at 9:19 am

              Hi Will,

              All true – but remember, it’s not just “liberals.” Clover, I am pretty sure, is a “good Republican.”

              The thing to draw a bead on is authoritarian collectivism. Right – or left. Liberal – or conservative – it’s the same thing in principle, with only minor superficial differences between them. Hitler’s Nazis – vs. Stalin’s Soviets. Republican drug warriors and cartel/crony capitalists – vs. Democrat welfare statists and social levelers. Both demand the subordination of the individual to the collective. Neither respects self-ownership but rather asserts ownership of others by them to one degree or another, for one “good reason” or another.

              Throw ‘em all in the woods!

          • clover
            July 12, 2013 at 1:07 am

            CloverWill, you say that Germans constantly break the laws? That is not what I hear. I hear they never have a line of cars going 10 to 20 mph over the seed limit! A story I recently heard from a guy that went to visit someone over there. He was driving with them out where there were no speed limits. His friends did call a special police number to turn in a reckless driver who was not only driving fast but switching lanes erratically among other things. Germans do not put up with poor driving! Many on this site who say they are practicing their right to drive dangerously would be in jail there.

          • BrentP
            July 12, 2013 at 1:44 am

            Clover, the fastest I’ll ever admit to driving on the internet was done on the German Autobahn. I maxed out the rental car, the only car I’ve ever hit the top speed of. I did this in the presence of a cop. No ticket. Not even a glance.

            Bring the uncloverized German driving experience to the USA, I dare you. Go ahead. Driving a 100-120mph on a limited access highway with disciplined drivers is simply wonderful for me. Do it. I’d love it. You’d lose your license. You’d soil your underpants before then.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            July 12, 2013 at 1:55 am

            Clover, what is it about you that makes you think you’re the best driver in the world? Everyone has their own idea about what’s “dangerous”. Risk is a purely subjective thing. I like to skydive because of that risk, but on my motorcycle I have to use tactics some would consider dangerous to avoid being run over.

            I only indicate if someone NEEDS to know that I’m turning or changing lanes. That forces me to look around and know where everyone is. I regularly travel well over the limit as a small, fast moving target is very hard to hit. I never tailgate as that’s just asking for one of your brethren to hit the brakes. I get in, and get out. Plain and simple.

            My little sister used to drive pretty recklessly, but after 20 years in the country she’s now painfully slow and critical of other drivers to the point of being obnoxious.

            I’ll bet that if someone in front of you mimicked your “driving”, for lack of a better word, you’d be the first to call the cops on them.

          • clover
            July 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm

            CloverЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N, if someone drove like me in front of me then I would be following them by 3 to 5 seconds depending on traffic. I have no problem with someone driving correctly in front of me! Tell me how it would be with people that drive like you in front of you? Would you have the feeling you need to pass them on a curve? Yes, I knew that. Your kind needs to be controlling in a dangerous way!
            Clover
            As for Brent, go move to Germany. Please. We are not stopping you. I could care less if you drove 120 mph in Germany. Who the hell cares? My 14 year old nephew would be able to do that. Yes where there are no speed limits in Germany you are allowed to drive 120 mph. Try driving recklessly like you do here and you would be in jail there. Try driving 120 mph closer to major cities where there are speed limits and you would be in jail! I have no problem with you leaving. As long as you stay here, follow our laws just like you need to follow the laws of Germany when you are there!Clover

          • Mithrandir
            July 13, 2013 at 2:07 am

            Clover,

            Can you dive an example in support of your statement:

            Your kind needs to be controlling in a dangerous way!

            The rest of your post is full of lies, slander and vitriol.

            As long as you stay here, follow our laws just like you need to follow the laws of Germany when you are there!

            Are you for following all the laws? Based on your writing I find it difficult to believe.

          • BrentP
            July 13, 2013 at 5:58 am

            Clover, I should sue you for slander. In person do you get punched in the face often? It would happen a lot if you behave like you do here.

            Interesting how you think that the law magically changes the safe into the reckless and vice-versa. What a warped creature you are.

            If someone pulled out in front of you, like the drivers you defend, you’d clearly be enraged. I can tell because you project rage on to others, thus it’s what you feel when it happens. Second your impatience appears in your arguments defending the driver pulling out.

            • July 13, 2013 at 12:19 pm

              Hi Brent,

              I suspect one of the reasons Clover fears and loathes liberty – a free society – is because he knows it would mean the frustration of his impulses; that he would get punched in the face for attempting to impose his warped sense of life on others.

              Clover wants a society in which he can be aggressively violent without consequences. He may not do the wet work himself, of course (he’s a pussy; a physical coward – as his type usually is). But he nonetheless derives an almost sexual satisfaction from knowing it is being done on his behalf.

              He is a sick puppy.

          • Forman
            July 13, 2013 at 10:04 am

            “Interesting how you think that the law magically changes the safe into the reckless and vice-versa.”

            Not “warped”… A mental child that has been physically and/or spiritually beaten into submission by “authority”. Clover is a common brat.

            • July 13, 2013 at 12:15 pm

              “Clover is a common brat.”

              Much worse. Because he has a gun – or the backing of people with guns. And he’s an adult.

              A bratty kid can be disciplined; told to behave – and has no physical power over adults.

              Clover is Yezhov… or Beria…

              And that should give us pause.

          • clover
            July 13, 2013 at 11:34 am

            CloverMithrandir you only have one law you want everyone to follow and that is get the hell out your way! Drunk driving, tailgating, weaving through traffic at a high rate of speed, speeding up to cut someone off from switching lanes are all things that are fine with you. Make you take your foot off the gas for a second and it is a major crime to you. You want someone to wait for minutes so you do not have to move your foot for a second!Clover

            BrentP, I would say sue me! If we took your videos to court and it got into the news you would be in jail with all the laws that you break. You are definitely the worst driver I have ever seen. You make up your own laws and ignore all others.Clover

          • Mithrandir
            July 13, 2013 at 12:54 pm

            Clover,

            Tell me when you return from the Nile.

            Your fabrications can build a village within a week.

            You are all talk, but no reason. (The ideal man of the state.)

            Clover’s trolling is boring, inane, and vacuous.

          • BrentP
            July 13, 2013 at 8:37 pm

            Support your accusations Clover.
            You can’t do it. Because you’re a liar.

            Do you behave like this in person?
            Do you get punched in the face often?

        • Eightsouthman
          July 13, 2013 at 8:58 pm

          BrentP, clover lives the life of Reilly or his wife. She doesn’t get beaten up because people cut women wayyy too much slack…up to the point where she can attack you with a Buck hunting knife and you end up looking the aggressor. Once the kiddies are out of college and on their own, she’ll provoke the old man till he punches her and then have the wonderful “system” convict and send him to prison for decades while she gets the whole enchilada and eventually marries a LEO who ends up beating her every time she says don’t. She’ll retire into obscurity, beaten and cowed but secure in her “right” to see “justice” done….even if her decision to marry a cop costs her the rest of her life. That’s the way love goes baby, that’s the way love goes. love for the state…..sooner or later, bites the very hand that feeds it.

  41. Brandonjin
    June 27, 2013 at 11:59 pm

    I always thought Independence Day was more of a homage to declaring independence from Britain, and not necessarily celebrating freedom itself.

    Can’t we keep the fireworks? They’re nice to look at and listen to, from a distance.

    I have a question, is nationalism a good or bad thing? Every single country has it. Though, one thing that brings all countries in the world together is their hatred for the US and Americans.
    I have another, is there anywhere that is free?
    Thanks.

    • June 28, 2013 at 12:21 am

      “I have a question, is nationalism a good or bad thing?”

      You should ask a Holocaust survivor that question.

      • Phillip the Bruce
        July 1, 2013 at 6:25 pm

        There is nothing wrong with what I call patriotism, i.e., loving the place you live. But that has nothing to do with the crooks that rule the place you live. That is nationalism, and nasty.

    • liberranter
      June 28, 2013 at 6:30 am

      is there anywhere that is free?

      If by “free” you mean a country where a person is free to live in accordance with the natural law, unmolested, retaining all of the fruits of their labor to dispose of (or not) as they see fit, where they are free to use their property unencumbered and for any purpose they desire as long as they do not impinge upon the rights and property of others, and to retain their property without extra-legal expropriation by the State, then the answer is no. There is no such country on earth. Some come closer than others (the UFSA isn’t even close to being in the top ten), but there is no absolutely free country or geographical area on earth. (I was tempted to give “Antarctica” as an example of a “free” country, even though it’s uninhabitable, but even that’s not true. Antarctica has been colonized by human bacteria from several powerful non-free countries, meaning that Cloverism has been exported even to the planet’s remotest stretches of wasteland.)

    • June 28, 2013 at 12:40 pm

      Nationalism = another form of collectivism and thus, represents an affront to individualism (and individual rights).

      Nationalism is about subsuming yourself in another group – thereby negating yourself as a distinct individual.

      It’s also about state-worship. Because nationalism is less about culture and geography than it is about rallying around whatever ruling clique controls the physical “country.”

      Is there anywhere that’s free?

      Yes – in your own mind and heart. There, you can be absolutely free.

    • Brandonkjin
      June 28, 2013 at 2:59 pm

      Thanks for the good answers everyone. You’ve all reaffirmed my prior thoughts, and have made me feel a little better.

      I’m still curious as to what the “most free” countries are. I can’t see myself moving though.

    • June 29, 2013 at 12:48 pm

      You could try setting up as a hermit on the Kerguelen Islands, if you can just steer clear of the French scientific base. In the nineteenth century, shipwrecked sailors sometimes lasted there literally for years until they were rescued.

      • Brandonjin
        July 1, 2013 at 2:07 am

        They’re so quaint, and out of the way. I didn’t even know they existed.

        • July 1, 2013 at 7:04 am

          The Kerguelen Islands aren’t out of the way in sailing ship terms, because sailing routes to Australia or New Zealand veered a bit south of the Great Circle from the Cape of Good Hope to those places to take advantage of the stronger westerly winds further south, and so often went near the Kerguelen Islands. That’s why there used to be a fair number of shipwrecks there, and why today’s Round the World yacht races often still go past those islands (Wikipedia states of those races that “The original course was designed to follow the route of the square riggers, which had carried cargo around the world during the 19th Century … The worst weather conditions are usually encountered in the Southern Ocean where waves sometimes top 100 feet (30 m) and winds can reach 60 knots (110 km/h)” – i.e., on that leg).

  42. June 27, 2013 at 10:56 pm
  43. Mike in Spotsy
    June 27, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    Maybe we should all pass out copies of this Onion article about recalling the US flag because it has caused 143 million deaths since 1777: http://www.theonion.com/articles/us-flag-recalled-after-causing-143-million-deaths,17248/

    The Onion is always good, but this is my all-time favorite. And just in time for the despicable doings of July 4th.

    • liberranter
      June 27, 2013 at 10:45 pm

      Only 143 million deaths? Somehow that figure seems a little light to me…

      • Mike in Spotsy
        June 27, 2013 at 10:55 pm

        They’re probably lowballing it so the USSA doesn’t look bad.

  44. June 27, 2013 at 10:27 pm

    I wear all black on the 4th.

    • Eightsouthman
      June 27, 2013 at 10:37 pm

      If you lived where I do, you’d have to re-think the “black” outfit if you had to be outside. Last I looked it was well over 113°.

      • June 27, 2013 at 10:39 pm

        Get’s hot here too. I have shorts, t-shirts, tank tops. I’ll be OK :)

    • liberranter
      June 27, 2013 at 10:44 pm

      How about a British Union Jack-patterned T-shirt, with a message reading “Was it really any worse than what we have now?”

      • Michael
        June 28, 2013 at 2:03 am

        Liberranter –

        This is great – I might have to try this one myself.

        Michael

      • June 29, 2013 at 12:03 pm

        No, it wasn’t. See my earlier comment on the subject.

    • Tre Deuce
      June 28, 2013 at 5:43 am

      I left the US on July 3rd, 1976, because I refused to celebrate the bicentennial on July 4th.

      Didn’t think about wearing Black.

      Used to wear all Black, all the time, occasionally sportifying myself with a Hawaiian shirt and a Panama hat. Time spent in and around the equator, and hiking the desert SW, modified the all Black all the time routine.

      Still won’t wear shorts, anywhere. Manly men don’t wear shorts…col!

      • DownshiftFast5to1
        June 28, 2013 at 6:04 am

        Tre Deuce wrote, “Still won’t wear shorts, anywhere. Manly men don’t wear shorts”

        What? You’re kidding. So you only swim naked?
        You go fishing knee deep in the water all day in jeans? That’s a bit uncomfortable for no reason.

        It’s 100 degrees out, you have the day off and a case of beer, and you don’t wear shorts? …I can’t say as I see the reason or the rhyme for that.

        • Tre Deuce
          June 28, 2013 at 6:26 am

          “So you only swim naked?” Yup Don’t like the drag.

          DownshiftFast5to1 … You missed the … COl! ‘Chuckling Out Loud’ the comment is tongue in cheek.

          But… most men look ridiculous in shorts whether mid thigh, above the knee or below, and lately, so do most women.

          Local nuisance laws should be directed at Shorts wearers, not imprisoning car collectors.

          If I were elected president, my first executive order would be to out law wearing shorts, unless, you have a tight ass, tanned and toned legs, and painted toe nails. Pretty much leaves out most of the populace and would beautify our surroundings while helping out the imbalance of trade.

          Cheers….Tre

        • June 28, 2013 at 9:11 am

          My take: Manly men don’t give a shit what others think about what they wear!

          I wear shorts – baggy cargo shorts – because they’re comfortable and useful. That’s the only thing I give a damn about.

          • Eightsouthman
            June 28, 2013 at 11:49 am

            I wear clothes when forced to, mainly to avoid all those sticky, pokey things, now and again for decorum. If I have on a shirt and shorts, I’m ready, and everyone else will have to get that way.

            • June 28, 2013 at 11:56 am

              Ditto!

              I hate wearing long pants. I will not wear dress pants. Each to his own, of course!

          • Tre Deuce
            June 28, 2013 at 6:49 pm

            Wow!

            I guess this is not the site to express a little humor.

            Whether to wear shorts or not is a, again, a personal choice, involving the situation.

            Here in the NW, men of a certain age, rarely wear shorts, and men, generally don’t wear shorts here.

            Environmentally, at the higher altitudes, the sun would put you in the hospital if you expose yourself. Shorts are worn under the protection of a patio cover or a market umbrella, and for tennis or athletic track activities, in a very short term, usually in the early AM or late afternoon when the sun isn’t on high.

            A few years back a young friend who was employed to take care of my personal cars and bikes, went with me to the Bonneville Speed Trials to help/crew on my LSR car. He always wore shorts, except in the shop. He grew up in South Africa and in that environment that was the norm. When we got to Bonneville he wore shorts the first day and, though, well tanned, payed dearly for it the rest of the week.

            The next year he wore long pants. The first morning I put on a pair of white socks for my casual wear when not slated to make a run. He asked why… I told him, and offered him a pair, and despite what he had went through last year, he declined the offer. By that evening he was in terrible pain, again. That two and a half inches of exposed ankle was severely burned.

            While you will see the inexperienced at Bonneville wearing shorts, and even those who know the the dangers, they don’t stay out in the sun very long and , or, only visit the track in the morning. By ten or eleven they have retreated to their motor homes or pit tent for protection.

            In the South with its humidity and generally lower altitude, the sun while a factor, just isn’t as dangerous as it is at the higher altitudes.

            And when fishing in the NW, you wear bib waders and an inflatable life jacket. The waters are cold and the rivers swift with rocky bottoms. Again… all depends on the environment.

            Now you guys all relax and have a good weekend.

            Stay comfortable my friends… and mellow out…col!

            Cheers …Tre

            Check out the the protection of Speed Trials stewards in this video and the white socks on the experienced.

            The Bonneville Speed Trials, should be high on the list of ‘must do’ automotive events or participant experiences.

            • June 28, 2013 at 6:52 pm

              No offense taken, Tre!

              I hope my post didn’t come across that way…

            • June 28, 2013 at 6:54 pm

              PS: I’m in the woods – literally. So, sunburn’s much less an issue for me than just sweating like a hog on account of the humidity!

          • Eightsouthman
            June 28, 2013 at 7:06 pm

            I was running roofing crews during some of the hottest years in recorded history in west Tx. I wore nothing but shorts and fishing shirts from dawn to dark. I’d put on pants when the cold north wind blew. Fishing all day, a no brainer, plenty of 50 SPF and long pants and shirts please, an east Africa hat painted camo mainly to keep it stiff and cut down on the light it let through, dark polarized sunglasses and plenty water, come in looking like a red coon. Texas=brutal sun. That reminds me, a GM rep once told me they painted their vehicles per geography they’d be sold so plenty orange peel on Tx. vehicles to keep the paint.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            June 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm

            Thanks for that info about the NW, Tre Deuce. That was interesting to learn.

            Also, what eric said:
            “No offense taken, Tre!
            I hope my post didn’t come across that way”

            I have a tendency to come across as abrasive when I don’t intend to. A bit North of mellow, for sure, however; it was all typed in a casual voice.

  45. Shazaam
    June 27, 2013 at 9:39 pm

    Refusing to participate is only a start.

    Education of the masses is the ticket. The great majority of the US population has been “Cloverized” by their time served in the government schools. The “Cloverization” indoctrination wears off quickly under a little government goon abuse. Absent that, friends and family can present the re-education material and in time the “Cloverization” effect of government schools can be eradicated.

    One topic I’ve found that fascinates people is the economy. Everyone knows it’s not a recovery (with the exception of government employees and presstitutes). And people want to know why the economy isn’t recovering. I like to discuss what makes for a vibrant economy, and then let them fill in the blanks as to why there is a problem…

    Historically, wealthy and prosperous countries / economies share 4 key factors:

    1. Easy taxes. i.e. under 10% total. China has seen many empires come and go, and Confucius has a saying to the effect that the empire that taxes more than 10% is doomed to collapse (based upon their history). Heavy taxes encourage rule breaking and starts the economy on the downward spiral of breaking the rules to get ahead. Taxes are the brakes on the economy. Increase the taxation, and watch the economy slow down. Government employees do not “get that” one, because it runs contrary to their job security.

    2. Minimal regulation. The bureaucrats sap the life out of the economy by sticking their noses into everything. He who wants to control you (bureaucrats) via regulation, considers himself (or herself) your master. I have no problem with building codes, etc. since it’s the insurance industry that handles those. Licenses for flower arrangers?? Give me a break.

    3. The “Rule of Law” is strictly observed. There are no “favored classes”. All are equally accountable for criminal actions. (I like to make a case that government employees should face stricter punishment, since they should know better what is legal ) “Hero cop” assaults grandma? He can face jail just like if you or I did the deed. No “sovereign immunity”. Prosecutor hides evidence to get that conviction? He can face the civil lawsuit of nightmares and jail for his crimes.

    4. Peace. War may be the best thing going for government usurpation of power. And it’s a perpetual drain on the economy to produce goods and services destined for destruction. Politicians love war. Bureaucrats love war. It’s job security for them.

    The chink in the armor of the government is that EVERYTHING they are doing to revitalize the economy is the polar opposite of what needs doing. It’s one thing to tell someone that. It’s orders of magnitude more powerful to let them (help them) reach that conclusion on their own.

    No one ever seems to teach what is required for a free and prosperous society. Feel free to educate. That’s the most effective starting place.

    • liberranter
      June 27, 2013 at 10:42 pm

      Politicians love war. Bureaucrats love war.

      Sheeple, especially Amoricon sheeple, love war too. Because they’ve never gotten a taste of it up close and personal (i.e., they’ve never been given a nice, heavy, gag-inducing dose of their own medicine that they’ve dished out to other societies around the world over the last century). Maybe that’s what will be needed to cure Amoricons of their love of war. In fact, I’m willing to bet that it’s the only thing that ever will.

      • BrentP
        June 28, 2013 at 12:01 am

        I tell them what happens overseas comes home. They don’t get it.

        So many cannot separate a people from a government. Even in the dark ages people knew the king and his government was separate from them.

        I really don’t want it come here…. but all these people are asking for it. Begging for it. Karmatically wishing it upon themselves.

        • Eightsouthman
          June 28, 2013 at 12:38 am

          Karmatically….farm out, have to remember that one. A friend coined “farm out” in Lubbock in 1971. He allowed as to how that’s all that was there, farms, and he was correct. He got into it with Lubbock Power and Light, a company known for their heavy handed dealings with customers. They turned off his power, the worst thing they could have done in dealing with HIM. He never took anything lying down so he set his mind to getting even. He decided if “he” couldn’t have power, nobody would. He gathered up his “stuff” and remedied a situation the best way he knew how. His VW easily broke the chain and lock on a sub-station that served at least 20,000 people. He stuffed the controls with dynamite, lit the fuse and left. He and his buddy laughed all the way home, a dark home just like everybody else had. He came by and said “Yall have lights, farm out, not everybody does” and he was right. It was a small victory sitting in his darkened home that night. All his neighbors cussed the power company while he said “yeh, those dirty Mofo’s”.

        • Jean
          June 29, 2013 at 5:12 am

          The Zombie Hoard must have its pound of flesh, it’s coming.

          It’s really just mob mentality, using mass media to twist as many people as possible into Clovers and Zombies.
          And articles like “Kill your TV” (Wonder if it’s still online?) aren’t new – the original was a PRINT article in like 1985 or so.

          Love him or hate him, Reagan had some GREAT quotes. Guess good writers. The more I read, the less I like him, actually. Truth does that. No wondrous unicorn farts if truth is, there are no unicorns…

          BUT: One is cogent directly one is cogent overall:
          For discussion of this point, the Cloverific Mindset, Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
          The trouble with our [L]iberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.
          I capitalized the “L” in Liberal due to the difference in meaning from then to now. -Jean

          This is for ALL TIME.

          There are those in America today who have come to depend absolutely on government for their security. And when government fails they seek to rectify that failure in the form of granting government more power. So, as government has failed to control crime and violence with the means given it by the Constitution, they seek to give it more power at the expense of the Constitution. But in doing so, in their willingness to give up their arms in the name of safety, they are really giving up their protection from what has always been the chief source of despotism — government. Lord Acton said power corrupts. Surely then, if this is true, the more power we give the government the more corrupt it will become. And if we give it the power to confiscate our arms we also give up the ultimate means to combat that corrupt power. In doing so we can only assure that we will eventually be totally subject to it. When dictators come to power, the first thing they do is take away the people’s weapons. It makes it so much easier for the secret police to operate, it makes it so much easier to force the will of the ruler upon the ruled.

          • June 29, 2013 at 11:37 am

            I capitalized the “L” in Liberal due to the difference in meaning from then to now. -Jean

            That’s U.S.-centrism. In most of the world, the meaning has not changed. Here in Australia, there is about to be an election in which the main right wing party will be the Liberal Party – so called because of its classical liberal ideology.

            • June 29, 2013 at 12:32 pm

              Hi PM,

              Not to be too pedantic about it, but:

              A classical liberal was someone like Jefferson (or Locke) who believed in minimalist (if any) government, who supported what they styled natural rights – and were men who had nothing in common with the right-wing “conservatives” of our time.

          • June 29, 2013 at 2:07 pm

            I didn’t mean to suggest that the Australian Liberal Party really were classical liberals any more than any right wing party is, just that they were formed around the propaganda pull of classical liberal ideology and so they show that the word itself still has that meaning here – as it has in most parts of the English speaking world.

      • dan
        June 29, 2013 at 4:02 am

        soon they will experience civil unrest as never before….as a country one can not destroy all pillars and expect no damage…they will regret their choices for the past 10 years….imho

      • fredder
        July 3, 2013 at 1:37 am

        I’m a Canuck so can’t really comment but will reply to liberranters post just to say how true your point is war is much safer from a distance!

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      June 27, 2013 at 11:40 pm

      Shazaam wrote, “I have no problem with building codes, etc. since it’s the insurance industry that handles those.”

      I don’t think that is correct. At least where I’m at. The cities and counties issue fines and use cops to regulate and confiscate property and shut business down based on those codes. That, more than having to pay property taxes, is why property ownership is really just renting, in Amerika.

      There used to be a county near mine that had no codes. Seemed like they did alright without them. IF Only it were the insurance industry that handles those, that’d be fine by me.

      • BrentP
        June 27, 2013 at 11:52 pm

        The insurance industry would have to look at both sides of the coin. They would have to optimize risk and cost since they pay out to rebuild. If they over specify it comes out of their pocket on claims.

      • Tre Deuce
        June 28, 2013 at 5:09 am

        What kind of house you can have and how it is built are determined by a number of factors and players.

        Construction minimums, are determined by a number of factors and is regional to a degree. Those things having to do with public safety(Fire, plumbing, seismic, wind & snow loads, flooding, etc.), are determined by the input of various agencies to the International Code Council to create the ‘International Building Code’. While a private agency(ICC), most government agencies charged to monitor and enforce codes, subscribe to the ‘IBC’.

        Insurance companies lobby for certain aspects of the codes, and the full implementation of the code as they do for other tangibles, such as your local fire station. Locally, do you need to have a fire resistant roof, that is insurance companies, because a fire resistant roof isn’t really a safety factor unless your fool hardy enough to still be in your house when a fire sweeps through your area.

        Banks determine what you build… try and get a loan for a one or two bedroom house.

        Covenants determine what you can build and how it will look.

        Regarding…> “They would have to optimize risk and cost since they pay out to rebuild. If they over specify it comes out of their pocket on claims.”

        Actually that should read ‘Minimize risk to reduce insurer costs’. Specification above and beyond the minimum code compliance, isn’t the venue of insurance companies, that would be the owner/architect or spec builder.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          June 28, 2013 at 6:19 am

          Tre Deuce wrote, “Construction minimums, are determined by a number of factors and is regional to a degree. Those things having to do with public safety(Fire, plumbing, seismic, wind & snow loads, flooding, etc.), are determined by the input of various agencies to the International Code Council to create the ‘International Building Code’. While a private agency(ICC), most government agencies charged to monitor and enforce codes, subscribe to the ‘IBC’.”

          Yeah,… and fuck them. It all sounds like Clover heaven.

          Tre Deuce wrote, “Insurance companies lobby for certain aspects of the codes, and the full implementation of the code as they do for other tangibles, such as your local fire station.”

          And fuck them too.

          Tre Deuce wrote, “Banks determine what you build… try and get a loan for a one or two bedroom house.”

          Fuck them also.
          People didn’t always traditionally get loans to build a house, and in many places do not now.

          Tre Deuce wrote, “Covenants determine what you can build and how it will look.”

          Thank goodness covenants aren’t everywhere.
          I like this bit from Wiki: “Real covenant law in the United States has been referred to as an “unspeakable quagmire” by one court.”

          • Tre Deuce
            June 28, 2013 at 7:00 am

            Just reporting … DownshiftFast5to1

            Common sense and aesthetics should be the guiding modus operandi.

            In 1990/91 I had several projects in Belize. A big resort, a beach house, and a project of some mystery for the US government.

            On the first project, of some 15 million dollars, I went to school. No permits were required, though the bank had its demands and inspectors.

            After several days of construction activity on the project, I was visited by the local head man who first off chastised me for paying the locals to much money, he then cautioned me about leaving him out of the loop. We came to an agreement on his fee and the labor wage and the job went smoothly. So did the next one. The government job was a mess, messed up by the suits from Virginia.

            In early 92′ I returned to the US and a job building a bank in Oregon. We were putting the finishing touches on the interior. I went to lunch, and when I returned nobody was there. I had been Red tagged for a low voltage permit. The crews went home setting the project back half a day and costing me and the subs and labor considerable money.

            When I had left for Belize, ‘Low Voltage’ permits were not required. It is not a public safety issue, just another way to collect fees, and drive costs up. Made me want to go back and build in the so called third world. There you pay the ‘head man’ a small fee and he controls your labor and labor cost, benefiting him and you. Here, now, fee permits, and inspections and impact studies can contribute as much as 10% of the cost of a job. And so it goes…………

    • BrentP
      June 27, 2013 at 11:45 pm

      Excellent, but I have one nit… here in c(r)ook county Illinois the building and fire codes do not come from insurers. They come from government. I’ve never had to deal with an inspection when building but I’ve had to deal with them when selling or just annually (multi-unit building). The former just found things to be annoying, like requiring the inside of the closets to be repainted. The later every year would find some “defect” that was there when the building was built 30 years prior. Every year. Something that was ok every year suddenly wasn’t. Government behavior through-and-through….

      Then there’s the infamous porch collapse in Chicago….

      • Shazaam
        June 28, 2013 at 2:41 pm

        Adherence to building codes were intended to indicate insurance risk. Don’t build to code, don’t expect to insure the structure.

        On the other hand, municipal governments have used their building nazis/ code enforcers as a jobs program for all the politician’s bastard children and low-wattage relatives for generations now.

        The governments have used the building codes issued by the National Fire Protection Association as a revenuing measure. They looked at the building codes as ready-made laws to be enforced at the point of a gun.

        I think if the insurance companies assigned premiums according to insurance company building inspector’s opinions, there would be far more compliance in the rental industries. Fix the building and save money ? That’s the kind of incentive you want for the inner city landlords….

        As it is now, make the right campaign contributions, and the building Nazis will leave you alone. (rust belt)

    • Libertymike
      June 28, 2013 at 12:38 am

      There can be no rule of law if the state is making the rules.

  46. The Daily Laugh
    June 27, 2013 at 8:07 pm
  47. Rich
    June 27, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    These idiots that voted for 0bama will be out there celebrating Independence Day on July 4th. 0bama voters celebrating Independence Day is like chickens celebrating Col. Sander’s birthday.
    Neal Boortz

    • Quam
      June 27, 2013 at 8:29 pm

      The retarded public school parasites vote to steal stuff from everyone else…They vote to Liberate themselves from having to earn a living. They survive “Independent” from producing values for themselves and others. I think most people miss this point…The voting cockroaches want “freedom” from having to earn a living. What did expect from democracy?

    • Julie
      June 27, 2013 at 8:32 pm

      In terms of people going out and celebrating while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for being on the winning Obama Ticket Team: I think people just like to win.

      It doesn’t matter that what they won is George W. Bush II, or that every promise made was broken.

      It matters that they won and got the good feeling one gets when one wins.
      Now let’s all celebrate with a mandatory grope and prod session at our local airpots. Who’s got the KY?!

  48. June 27, 2013 at 7:17 pm

    After re-reading your post, it does not appear that you are suggesting people should do anything specific. Or did I miss it?

    If you are only saying that we “should not” fly flags, shoot off firecrackers or eat hot dogs….well, that non-action is going to go completely unnoticed. Won’t change a thing.

    • June 27, 2013 at 8:18 pm

      Hi Mike,

      I disagree.

      Strongly.

      Imagine if a large portion of any crowd refused – openly, obviously – to play along. It would be a remarkable thing. It would help to end the charade.

      The value of that cannot be over-valued, as I see it.

      • Palerider
        June 29, 2013 at 12:51 pm

        It seems to me that greater value might be enjoyed by there not being any crowd at all. You will never convince the sheep of anything by confronting them with protest, so why place yourself in a position of having to deal with a hostile situation of your own making? Reduce the size of the crowd by staying home. (What if they threw a party and nobody came?) If the end result of that action is a crowd which is small enough to make your absence obvious, your point has been made and the door to further future conversation and debate has been opened. If not, then as I suspect will happen, the sheep will fully populate the crowd, the Kabuki will proceed as scheduled and you will know exactly how hopeful or hopeless your position is without having generated any hate, discontent or confrontation in a crowd who only showed up to have a good time. While I completely agree with Eric’s contention, I don’t see where protesting in the midst of a party populated by sheep is going to get you anything other than a hard way to go, resulting in no point being either made or taken.

      • Capn Mike
        June 30, 2013 at 3:55 am

        Well, I’m stuck in the States for the 4th this year. The good news is I’m going to be hanging out with all my kids, their moms, and their step-dads.
        Some of the adults are robo-patriots.
        I just ordered a Gadsden flag which will arrive Wed.
        I’m gonna fly it, and if one of these benighted individuals makes a fuss, I’ll just say: “Look, this is an authentic American Revolutionary flag. If you want the Stars and Stripes, wait for Constitution Day (and fly it yourself)”.

        • Phillip the Bruce
          July 1, 2013 at 6:11 pm

          Have you seen the new, NSA inspired version of the Gadsden Flag? The snake is now a USB cord. Posted on Lew Rockwell’s blog a few days ago.

          • Capn Mike
            July 13, 2013 at 6:30 pm

            Cool!

    • Peej
      July 1, 2013 at 12:57 am

      Mike,
      Even more important than “being noticed” is being true to oneself. I don’t care if anyone takes note or not, I’m ending the pretending. And it is good for my soul to honest with myself about where Amerika is at; not perpetuating the myth just because just about everybody else is.

  49. Julie
    June 27, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    About six years ago I stopped saying the pledge. I was creating and displaying graphics for a college softball game at the time and I was busy placing the last graphics into the Venus when the announcement came and everyone stood up. I didn’t say the pledge not (at the time) because I had political and moral objections to it but because I noticed everyone’s eyes when they stood up.

    They were blank. They stood up because they were told to stand up. They placed their hands over their heart because they had been taught to do so. It was actually one of the creepiest (and albiet extremely random in terms of the timing) acts a large group of people can do in front of you and not just because it’s pledging your body and mind to the State (thank you, Rousseau) but because they were acting just like good little automatons.

    Easily controlled, easily incited, easily appeased.

    I distinctly remember finally noticing it and decided to sit back down and continue my work.

    Of course now I have other reasons (which coincide nicely with the former reasons) for not pledging my life and liberty to the State but I won’t ever forget that day.

    • liberranter
      June 27, 2013 at 7:54 pm

      I often wonder if the reason everyone goes along with not only the pledge, but the genuflection ritual that accompanies the national anthem when it’s played at public sporting events, is because people are afraid of what will happen if they don’t go along with the charade. There is some justification for their fear, in that refusal to be a gehoersamer Berger (a.k.a. “good German” has in some instances provoked an official backlash (ask this guyabout that, after he refused to genuflect during a song that isn’t even the national anthem</I. during the seventh-inning stretch of game at Yankee Stadium [UGH!] a few years ago. If they'd do this to him over a song without official status, what would they do to someone who refused to bow during the national hymn?). This might be an extreme example for now, but it probably won’t be an anomaly for long.

      • June 27, 2013 at 8:09 pm

        True story:

        Last year, my wife ran in a 5k on the 4th. Prior to the race, there was the expected nauseating “salute to the troops” and anthem singing. I turned my back. But I was armed – and prepared to defend myself, if accosted by “freedom loving” assholes.

        • David
          June 29, 2013 at 5:45 am

          I don’t know who it was, and I’m glad I don’t know, but someone actually requested we sing the National Anthem on the Sunday before July 4… in our church…

          Talk about worship of State!

          In general, however, I don’t have such a problem with the national anthem itself. Just with the fact that people don’t know that the “Land of the free, and the home of the brave” is dead. Lincoln killed it. The Roosevelts and Wilson killed it again, with a valliant attempt by Calvin Coolidge* to save it… No dice…

          *Yeah, I know about prohibition. Nobody’s perfect.

          We sang “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” two weeks ago… my only regret is that I even stood… I hadn’t read Vance’s article in too long although I remembered enough to know I couldn’t sing the thing…

          What I don’t understand is WHY independence day has become a state worshipping day. The Declaration of Independence is a glorious thing, and its about OVERTHROWING tyranny. That’s what the Revolutionary War was about. The War of 1812, which is where the national anthem came from, is similar. Of course, it would have never happened with the kind of high speed communication we have in the 21st century, but Britain was attacking American ships. That was self-defense.

          Nothing we do now is self-defense. “The troops” are not defending “Our freedom.”

          I wish people could tell the difference.

          I was in a church tonight (Not mine, thank God, I’d never attend a church that is this Zionistic) that literally had an article on the wall that included a line saying we should “Support Israel if it PREEMPTIVELY strikes Iran in Self-defense.” Seriously, are you freaking kidding me? Neo-con crap aside, do you even know what your WORDS mean? I’d laugh, but dead Iranians is nothing to laugh about…

          If and when we ever have a second revolution, I’ll be on your side. Not theirs. I can promise you that much.

          • June 29, 2013 at 9:34 am

            The 4th has, indeed, become an inversion of what it once was – because America is now an inverted version of what it once was. It is exactly of a piece with Orwell’s description of “war is peace” (and “freedom is slavery”) in 1984. Things means the opposite of what they previously did – though the outward forms remain the same.

            Still, I find it incredible that anyone not literally retarded – Down Syndrome, etc. – could talk seriously about “our freedoms” these days.

          • June 29, 2013 at 10:41 am

            The Declaration of Independence is a glorious thing, and its about OVERTHROWING tyranny. That’s what the Revolutionary War was about.

            Er, no, it wasn’t. Even then, that was just the propaganda being used to cover putting in a new lot of tyranny with an incubation period.

            The War of 1812, which is where the national anthem came from, is similar. Of course, it would have never happened with the kind of high speed communication we have in the 21st century, but Britain was attacking American ships. That was self-defense.

            Again, no. You have been deceived by state propaganda on this one as well. The real history is a lot deeper, but here are a few highlights:-

            – The U.S.A. welched on the peace treaty of 1783. Britain wasn’t attacking “American” ships at all, but continuing the previous arrangements that were still international law pending compliance with the treaty – that is, legally, the ships weren’t those of a recognised sovereign state but of a rogue state. Matters were resolved by the treaty of 1814, not because it was made but because that one was complied with.

            – The U.S.A. had also been enforcing an embargo that undercut the British effort against France, one that looked even-handed but actually only affected the naval supplies Britain needed and not the French ones (even Tom Paine mentions this strategic vulnerability, and deep down he was shallow). Think what’s being done “peacefully” like that these days.

            – That reference to slaves in that song is about the hope of freedom Britain was offering the slaves. That was the foot that the boot of tyranny was really on.

          • scarlett
            June 30, 2013 at 2:01 am

            David….you are absolutely correct in that Lincoln killed liberty. 1865 was the end of Constitutional America.

      • Boothe
        June 27, 2013 at 8:52 pm

        Well liberranter, it does not surprise me that NYPD treated this guy the way they did. I’ve been to NYC proper a couple of times. What impressed me was the absolutely cold and thuggish behavior of the cops on the streets of Queens. They really are Bloomberg’s private army, they do pretty much as they please and there were a lot of them out on display.

        A few years back we were in a pizza parlor eating when some redneck played that stupid Lee Greenwood song on the jukebox. What? Did ol’ Lee forget “Pride goeth before a fall” when he wrote that? Anyway, Mr. Flag Waving Redneck was going around the restaurant trying to get everyone to stand up for this hillbilly jive. Most did, but when he got to me and looked me in the eye he just moved on. I’d already warned my wife if he grabbed my sleeve like I’d seen him do with a couple of other guys, to be ready to leave before he regained consciousness. I think he knew what I had in store for him. He wasn’t as stupid as I thought he was.

        • liberranter
          June 27, 2013 at 10:35 pm

          NYC is the epitome of the state-corporate thugocracy (only Rome-on-the-Potomac itself is arguably worse). Nanny Bloomberg is only the lastest (if so far the worst) of the CEOs of that cesspool. It’s “police force” would make Ernst Roehm’s SA wretch with disgust.

          I thank God that my dad was smart enough to have moved us out of the suburbs of that foul place before I reached my teens. I can’t imagine anyone living there voluntarily, especially in the post-Nahleven era. I spent quite a bit of time there working in the mid 90s, but haven’t been back in fifteen years. I don’t intend to return in the foreseeable future either.

          • liberranter
            June 27, 2013 at 10:36 pm

            OOPS, make that “latest”…

        • Parliament.Scout
          June 30, 2013 at 7:07 pm

          Glad to see I’m not the only one that thinks that Lee Greenwood song is atrocious! How many agree, that the current state of affairs predates the current administration?

          • June 30, 2013 at 10:27 pm

            When they play that Lee Greenwood song, all I hear is “Horst Wessel”…

            The flag on high! The ranks tightly closed!
            The SA march with quiet, steady step.
            Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
            March in spirit within our ranks.
            Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
            March in spirit within our ranks.

            Clear the streets for the brown battalions,
            Clear the streets for the stormtrooper!
            Millions are looking upon the swastika full of hope,
            The day of freedom and of bread dawns!
            Millions are looking upon the swastika full of hope,
            The day of freedom and of bread dawns!

            For the last time, the call to arms is sounded!
            For the fight, we all stand prepared!
            Soon Hitler’s banners will fly over all streets.
            The time of bondage will last but a little while now!
            Soon Hitler’s banners will fly over all streets.
            The time of bondage will last but a little while now.

            The flag on high! The ranks tightly closed!
            The SA march with quiet, steady step.
            Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
            March in spirit within our ranks.
            Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
            March in spirit within our ranks.

            Nazi’s singing of Freedom and Liberty. How quaint.

    • June 30, 2013 at 12:17 am

      In the early 80’s while I was in Elementary school on the East Coast I remember the pledge. It was different to be because I had family in the wars and occasional nuke drills at school. Incidentally, did you know that hiding your head under a desk will protect you from a nuclear attack? (good times!) I knew I was an American and I was taught why I should be proud of that. Kids don’t get that these days. I say “kids these days” like an old man but I’m only 36… There has been a lot of changes and they’ve been happening quickly.

      I think the pledge would mean more if it was explained to kids and they were given the choice.

    • scarlett
      June 30, 2013 at 1:48 am

      The Pledge of Allegience was authored in 1892 “by an avowed socialist named Francis Bellamy who wanted to use it to indoctrinate school children in the ideology of big government.” That is from the book, Lincoln Unmasked, by Thomas J. DiLorenzo. I recommend every American read it.

  50. Big Creepy Lookin' Cracka
    June 27, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Let’s have a chorus of U.S.A. comrades. We have a glorious free and equal rainbow hopetopia where everyone is exactly the same. A lumpen proletariat mass of mouth breathing dumbasses.

  51. June 27, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    The last US flag I touched was the one given to me by the Marine guard at my veteran husband’s funeral in 1986. I gave it to the VFW to do with as they wished, as I had no desire to keep it. The last time I said the “pledge” was in grammar school… about 1955, and wasn’t happy about that even that far back.

    I’ve NEVER “celebrated” the traditional 4th of July, and I absolutely despise all of it, including the fireworks. It’s all a reminder of the poison of slavery and death that’s been around us increasingly for close to 200 years.

    This year, as we have for many before it, a good number of us will gather and spend most of the day on our private rifle range. I hope the usual person will be bringing appropriate targets… The BBQ to follow is simply fellowship of like minds and to celebrate the new “riflemen” among us.

    • liberranter
      June 27, 2013 at 7:36 pm

      This year, as we have for many before it, a good number of us will gather and spend most of the day on our private rifle range. I hope the usual person will be bringing appropriate targets… The BBQ to follow is simply fellowship of like minds and to celebrate the new “riflemen” among us.

      “Bullets, BBQ, and Beer” – THAT, Mama, is the PERFECT way to spend the 4th! I might just add the “bullets” part of that triad myself this year.

      • Philip the Bruce
        July 1, 2013 at 6:01 pm

        Sounds like a T-shirt to me. Along the lines of “Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.”

        • Eightsouthman
          July 1, 2013 at 7:09 pm

          Philip, I’d like to have a big over size long tail shirt with as big of letters as possible saying Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
          No, not that bunch of criminals
          The New Convenience Store

    • Ellen
      June 29, 2013 at 6:21 pm

      If I knew ya MamaLiberty, I’d beg to join you in a much more useful and appropriate use of one’s time and skills. Bravo to you and yours!

  52. liberranter
    June 27, 2013 at 4:43 pm

    I’ve been doing this every year for at least the last ten years. The last time a flag went up in front of my house on 4th of July was on that date in 2003, in Northern Virginia (a.k.a. state-worshiping Clover Central). When that flag hung, it hung upside down, with a black ribbon attached to the top of the pole. In succeeding years I couldn’t even bring myself to do that much. No flag has ever cursed my property since then. In addition that, there are no fireworks or any other form of celebration on my property.

    Every year I also always refer to this gem by the late Harry Browne:

    http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/JulyFourth.htm

    • PreacherRye
      June 27, 2013 at 4:49 pm

      A great read thanks for posting that link. I will share it, along with Eric’s post, with some close friends.

    • scarlett
      June 30, 2013 at 1:29 am

      Wonder article by Harry Browne….i just sent it out to 28 people. the same 28 to whom I sent Erics! Won’ t they all just love me to death….help!

  53. PreacherRye
    June 27, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    For some reason, being awake and part of the liberty movement feels a lot like that old tv show Star Trek Voyager: Unimatrix Zero. The amount of statist drones bumbling around out there is nauseating. I wonder if others here have a similar experience.

    It’s also very fascinating to talk with people about ideas of self ownership, natural rights, the nap, etc. I have found that in almost every case, even older people, they have never even heard about or contemplated the ideas of true freedom. They are so ingrained with all this shit we put up with from the ruling, immune class of thugs, it seems normal and just “the cost of civilized society.” And those are the people I actually have a shot at reaching. I won’t hardly even speak to the statist leeches that actively support more gov’t control and power and to keep receiving their “free stuff.”

    • June 30, 2013 at 12:08 am

      Let me start out by saying I love the nerd reference and it fits perfectly. I doubt the “cool” crowd will get that though. I digress…

      I’ve been thinking back to the reason I became an Independent and I think it’s because of the most basic problem this country has. The root of it all boils down to misplaced loyalties and a lack of patriotism. The repoblocrats fight with themselves constantly and both sides are more likely to state their political party with pride than their nationality. That bothers me. To me, both sides of the coin are useless and we just need a new coin.

      I have a proposal. Be patriotic. Spread America around everywhere. Flags and quotes and stripes and the like. Fill up pinterest, facebook, twitter and every corner of the internet with the big picture. The point. The nation as a whole, indivisible. If Americans don’t get the point they will be too busy fighting over which turd in the political bucket smells the least while their country falls apart around them.

      Just a thought.

      Dave

      • Phillip the Bruce
        July 1, 2013 at 5:56 pm

        I will NOT pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, for there is no longer a republic for which it stands.
        Forget the red herring of “under God,” which was added later. Before Mr. Lincoln’s war no one would have dared speak of “one nation, indivisible.” The Pledge was written by socialists, like most of the DCvers running the country now.

        • Sirna Kolramy
          July 2, 2013 at 4:24 am

          You have a hard time understanding what socialism means, don’t you?

          • July 2, 2013 at 9:46 am

            Socialism is a form of authoritarian collectivism in which the individual is forcibly subordinated to the collective, “society.” It differs from the other forms of authoritarian collectivism in window-dressing trivialities only. For example, rather than individuals being forced at gunpoint to do obey the will of one man, they are forced to obey the will of several or many. But the fundamental essence is always the same: Force, exercised over the individual, by others who take the position that they have a right to control/direct the lives of other people – and to enforce their viewpoint at bayonet or gunpoint.

          • July 2, 2013 at 10:16 am

            Socialism, like Fascism, is just another form of authoritarian collectivist control freakism. Do what WE (the collective) say or we’ll send men with guns to your house and have YOU (the individual) thrown into a cage. If you resist being thrown into a cage, WE (the collective) will have those men guns shoot YOU (the individual).

          • geraldine
            July 3, 2013 at 2:47 am

            Sirna, you have no idea what freedom is. Tradgic.

    • clover
      June 30, 2013 at 1:15 am

      Clover
      What a joke! You can always leave! Eric says that the government are thugs? Eric says that we need to let the drunks go on the road, he says road rage drivers should run free, he says all laws are to be ignored, he says that people that shoot at police are good guys! It goes on and on. Could someone tell me why it is better to let the criminal and dangerous people run our country? The government I have control over but if we are to kiss the ass of criminals and people that endanger and kill others who would want to live in this country?

      • scarlett
        June 30, 2013 at 1:18 am

        You seem to put words in his computer (mouth).

      • Brad Smith
        June 30, 2013 at 1:53 am

        The joke is your strawman argument.

        • Inigo
          July 1, 2013 at 12:24 am

          i don’t think this word means what you think it means…

      • June 30, 2013 at 2:14 am

        Clover, you sound like Archie Bunker: America, love it or leave it!

        In case you haven’t noticed criminals do run this country & sheeple like you make it possible. Keep dreaming that you control the govt. Maybe you can stop paying taxes for a while, then you’ll see who is really boss. (Hint: It ain’t you.)

        • Stella
          June 30, 2013 at 10:00 pm

          Revolution is not possible without the first, most important step: an ideological shift in the population. We see that happening through positive use of the internet. It’s slowly happening, but not largely enough. This is the part where one voice really counts, but only if you act on what you say you wish other people would act on. Trying to spread a message, no matter how futile your attempts seem, is more powerful than rolling over like a dog just because you have no other choice.

      • June 30, 2013 at 2:19 am

        why it is better to let the criminal and dangerous people run our country

        Criminals and dangerous people are running your country, you worthless state worshiping rat fink descendant of porcine fornicating prostitutes.

      • BrentP
        June 30, 2013 at 2:21 am

        Eric’s way is what this country was designed to be to be more or less. The only country designed that way. Your way is how many other countries are designed to be. Thus it is only logical that you and your kind should leave. You have many choices of countries where the government nannies and keeps you safe. Leave the USA for the people who can take care of themselves.

        • June 30, 2013 at 2:24 am

          Right. Clover, since you love the state so much, feel free to move to North Korea. They have plenty of rules and regs for you to masturbate over.

      • June 30, 2013 at 9:25 am

        Once again, Clover, I never “said” any such thing. You’re a liar, in addition to a collectivist thug. I don’t call you a liar without good cause.

        What I wrote – and you know very well what I wrote, because I’ve done so repeatedly, carefully explaining the concept to you – is that people who’ve not caused any harm have a right to be left unmolested. That’s all. Nothing more – and nothing less.

        Laws based on this principle, I support. I also support holding people who do cause harm to persons or property responsible for the harm they’ve caused.

        You, on the other hand, defend any and all laws – and their enforcement at gunpoint – whether they involve harms done or not.

        You believe it is the obligation of every person to submit to aggression if the aggression is committed by a person wearing a special costume. And that to defend oneself against such aggression justifies the aggressor’s imprisoning or killing you.

        Which is fine, in the sense that you the right to hold and defend such loathsome notions.

        But, stop lying about what I’ve written.

        You know damn well I do not “say” that “road rage drivers should run free,” or that “we need to let the drunks go on the road” and all the rest of your twaddle. I never once “said” any such thing. You’ve “said” such things. They are your confections; your lies.

        You have to lie, of course.

        You must deliberately ignore what I actually argue – and argue against things I never stated – because you know how much harder it is to argue against the idea that peaceful people who’ve caused no harm to anyone ought to be left in peace than it is to squeal about “defending drunks” and “letting road ragers run free.”

        You’re pathetic.

        A moral and intellectual imbecile. A squid. A small-minded, ethically bankrupt cretin.

        • June 30, 2013 at 11:29 am

          You tell him, Eric. When it comes to peaceful people being left alone Herbert Spencer summed it up well:

          The Right to Ignore the State

          1. The Right to Voluntary Outlawry

          As a corollary to the proposition that all institutions must be subordinated to the law of equal freedom, we cannot choose but admit the right of the citizen to adopt a condition of voluntary outlawry. If every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man, then he is free to drop connection with the state — to relinquish its protection, and to refuse paying toward its support. It is self-evident that in so behaving he in no way trenches upon the liberty of others; for his position is a passive one; and whilst passive he cannot become an aggressor. It is equally self-evident that he cannot be compelled to continue one of a political corporation, without a breach of the moral law, seeing that citizenship involves payment of taxes; and the taking away of a man’s property against his will, is an infringement of his rights. Government being simply an agent employed in common by a number of individuals to secure to them certain advantages, the very nature of the connection implies that it is for each to say whether he will employ such an agent or not. If any one of them determines to ignore this mutual-safety confederation, nothing can be said except that he loses all claim to its good offices, and exposes himself to the danger of maltreatment — a thing he is quite at liberty to do if he likes. He cannot be coerced into political combination without a breach of the law of equal freedom; he can withdraw from it without committing any such breach; and he has therefore a right so to withdraw. (snip)

          http://www.constitution.org/hs/ignore_state.htm

        • clover
          July 1, 2013 at 1:38 am

          Eric you talk about aggression? I would rather have a policeman driving along me any time compared to self proclaimed road rage libertarians. It is a million times more likely for me to be injured by a self proclaim libertarian that any policeman. Self proclaimed libertarians feel it is their right to endanger others. They have run me off the road before with their law breaking and aggressive road rage driving. Many of you here follow these poor examples of driving! I have never or anyone else I know had a cop point a gun at them like you post time and time again!Clover

          Aggressive Driving & Road Rage Symptoms

          Mentally condemning or thought of violence toward other drivers.
          Verbally expressing condemnation of other drivers to passengers in your vehicle.
          Not obeying traffic safety rules because you don’t agree with them.
          Engage in aggressive and risky driving:
          Following too close.
          Speeding.
          Weaving in and out of traffic.
          Speeding up to beat a traffic light.
          Cutting between vehicles to change lanes.
          Using the horn excessively.
          Flashing headlights excessively at oncoming traffic.
          Braking to get others to back off your bumper.
          Passing another driver, then slowing to teach them a lesson.

          All of these cause more danger to me and others but you feel it is your right to endanger others! I have never been endangered by the police have you? I have by libertarian type of driving!

          • Eightsouthman
            July 1, 2013 at 1:49 am

            Troll…..paid troll..

          • clover
            July 1, 2013 at 2:01 am

            Eightsouthman Tell me where I am wrong with my statements? They are the facts that I have lived with! Define your term Troll? Is it someone who tells the truth and you do not like the truth?Clover

          • Eightsouthman
            July 1, 2013 at 2:13 am

            Everything you say is nonsensical. How do you define any of the parameters you speak of? Take each question, instill an empirical value to it, a value of quantity or quality or both and put a number on it. Every argument you make is totally subjective and the degrees or other qualifications are known only to you. Obtuse, yep, you are.

          • GrayCat
            July 1, 2013 at 2:22 am

            Please tell how many actual libertarians you’ve ever met who practice road rage, and who have actually run you or anyone else off the road? If you REALLY DON’T KNOW who those people were, WHY are you calling them libertarians? That’s just plain stupid and dishonest.

            Why do you equate life-endangering driving with libertarianism, rather than just bad and aggressive driving? Where has Eric advocated road rage, or aggressive driving against anyone else to endanger their lives?

            Thinking for yourself is not engaging in road rage. “Disobeying” “laws” that are not really LAWS, and not endangering anyone else, is not road rage, AND NOT CRIMINAL.

            Driving so as to endanger anyone else is not “libertarian type of driving.”

            If you knew anything of libertarianism, you’d know the falsity of what you’re claiming.

            And just because you’ve never done something some cop thought was “threatening” doesn’t mean you’re not in danger by any cop who confronts you for anything.

            What is it with you, anyway? What about libertarianism actually scares you, IF you actually know what libertarianism is?

            Why can’t you even attempt to be honest about what Eric ACTUALLY writes and what libertarianism ACTUALLY is? That would be much appreciated.

            Until then, no one can come to any conclusion but that you just don’t like people not like you. Oh, boo-hoo.

          • Simon Jester
            July 1, 2013 at 3:40 am

            Seriously? Are you just a whack job? The most violent, aggressive people I’ve run across are liberal/progressives. A major point of libertarianism is non-initiation of force. Your claims would run rather against that. I think perhaps you are projecting a bit. Might want to get some help with your out of control anger issues.

            • July 1, 2013 at 9:26 am

              Hi Simon,

              Clover is our resident statist-collectivist troll. He is an exemplar – a “type.” There are tens of millions of him out there… and that is why the country’s in the state it’s in.

          • July 1, 2013 at 10:00 am

            Clover,

            “self-proclaimed Libertarian road ragers”? That is your bizarre confection. I’d like very much for you to point out any Libertarian who describes himself as a “road rager.”

            Or who is one, for that matter.

            The whole point of being a Libertarian, Clover, is to reject aggression – violence toward other people. How many times must I explain this?

            It’s not “road rage” to pass you, Clover. It is just passing you. The act, as such, may (or may not be) legal. But it does not necessarily cause you any harm.

            It’s not “aggression” to ignore a stupid sign, when there’s no good reason to obey it. (That it’s “the law” isn’t a good reason – to a person with an operating brain. Mindless obedience is admirable in dogs and slaves, perhaps. Not free men.)

            Why do you continue to misrepresent what others (including me) have argued?

            “Road rage,” to you, is any failure to abide by any law. It is synonymous, in your mind (such as it is) with any exercise of individual judgment that conflicts with “the law.” Thus, you regard “speeding” as “road rage,” passing a slower-moving vehicle over a double yellow as road rage – irrespective of any consideration as to whether the action itself caused harm or even threatened to. For you, all that matters is that “the law” says Thou Shalt Not. Cops are “heroes” – righteous magnificoes who never abuse their authority; who never manufacture evidence, beat people or even kill them. Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. They are, to you, god-like supermen who must be automatically obeyed at all times. To even question a cop is, to you, outrageous.

            I have never, not once, defended tail-gating. I have never, not once, defended menacing others with a motor vehicle. You know this. Yet you continue to deliberately misrepresent what I do advocate – the exercise of individual judgment; the right to be left in peace unless a person has caused actual harm to others or their property – and denounce me for things I’ve never advocated, such as “road rage” and “aggression.”

            You are either exceptionally stupid – someone literally not capable of understanding the written/spoken word.

            Or, you are an egregious serial liar.

            Which is it, Clover?

          • clover
            July 1, 2013 at 11:31 am

            CloverYes Eric that is the entire problem! Even the libertarians can not get together with what should be allowed and what should not. You say that you do not OK tailgating but many of your libertarian friends say it is OK. That is the problem with as you say your libertarian rights to do anything you want to do. Some of you say that passing in a no passing zone is OK. Others of you say that tailgating is not a law to them. Others say that weaving through traffic at 120 mph is OK. Others say that having a 12 pack of beer and driving down the road is OK. Since you have an anything goes type of view millions of people are endangered by the guy that does not make the correct decision of what laws to break! That is why we have a government. They set standards and limits. People almost blind can not get a license. People with a higher BAC are not to drive! People that weave through traffic and tailgate need to be stopped and in some way change their behavior or they will kill someone or cause property loss.
            Clover
            You say that libertarians are not about aggression. With your libertarian rights of doing whatever you feel like on the road or where ever it is like closing your fist and swinging at someone’s head. Sometimes you land and sometimes you do not. You say that is an acceptable behavior until the fist lands!Clover

            • July 1, 2013 at 11:36 am

              Clover,

              The core tenet of Libertarian philosophy is the non-aggression principle (NAP). To live one’s life in such a way as to avoid harming others or their property – and to expect the same from others. This entails leaving other people in peace unless their actions have caused harm. It’s one thing – a proper thing – to hold individuals responsible for any harm they’ve caused. It is another thing entirely – a wrong thing – to punish them when no harm has been done. When all they’ve done is violated some “law.”

              I have explained all of this to you at least a dozen times – yet you continue to gargle idiocies never advocated by me – or any other Libertarian I’ve ever encountered.

              The only advocate of aggressive violence toward others on this site is you, Clover.

              You have proved you are not capable of rational discussion; that you cannot appreciate the difference between a hypothetical and an actual. Or wrong – vs. merely “illegal.”

              You’re a fool – or a liar.

              Perhaps both.

          • clover
            July 2, 2013 at 1:22 am

            Eric in your own words you say that “Libertarian philosophy is the non-aggression principle (NAP). To live one’s life in such a way as to avoid harming others or their property” Clover

            I guess you misinterpret your own philosophy! Tell me Eric if Someone drives drunk, or weaves through traffic, or tailgates, or excessively speeds, or passes in a no passing zone are major things that injure and kill others daily! I call that aggressive driving! Aggression that kills others and or causes property damage daily. I say that is behavior that is very aggressive and needs to stop! You call those behaviors non-aggression? Why?

            • July 2, 2013 at 10:03 am

              Clover, you are an imbecile.

              Someone who is apparently not able to understand that words have specific meaning.

              What is a “drunk,” Clover?

              To you, it is anyone who is found to have “x” BAC, as decreed by the government. And then you make the leap to “drunk” driving. That is, a person with “x” BAC is necessarily a “drunk driver” – that is, he is necessarily impaired, by definition, merely and solely because he has “x” BAC.

              This is ridiculous on its face, for reasons already explained to you multiple times. Individuals vary in terms of how they process alcohol. Individuals vary in terms of their skill level. Some people are less impaired – that is, they are still better drivers – even after a few drinks than others are completely sober. These are facts. Clover. Not disputable. Yet you continue to dispute them – and that is what makes you an imbecile. Because imbeciles can’t comprehend facts, much less reason to a conclusion using those facts.

              Despite the fact that people process alcohol differently and have varying levels of competence as drivers, you want to have everyone arrested and charged with “drunk” driving who is found to have “x” BAC – even if their actual driving supplied no reason to suspect impairment. In other words, you don’t really care about impaired driving. Your fetish is that some people may have had a drink (or more) and gotten into a car. Irrespective of how they drive, that fact infuriates you – like an old hag who resents an attractive young woman.

              If you weren’t an intellectual and ethical imbecile, you’d advocate holding individual people who cause damage as a result of impairment for whatever reason accountable for their actions.

              Instead, you jerk off to the idea of forcing every single driver on a given road to submit to an utterly unjustified police state stop/search/examination in order to nab people who may have had some alcohol to drink but who are by no means necessarily drunk (impaired) such that it meaningfully affects their driving.

              Then, you conclude this latest public display of your intellectual and ethical impairment by regurgitating the same tired lies: That I advocate or defend tailgating and so on. Which I have never done.

              You’re not even worth insulting, Clover – because you’re not smart enough to get the joke.

          • clover
            July 2, 2013 at 11:33 am

            Eric, you say ” To live one’s life in such a way as to avoid harming others or their property”. Is Tailgating avoiding harm to others? Is weaving through traffic at a high rate of speed avoiding harm to others? Is drinking four or 5 drinks and going out and driving avoiding harm to others? Is passing in a no passing zone avoiding harm to others? Maybe the libertarian party is not what you are all about!Clover

            You say that someone with a BAC of .01 does not need to be stopped even though it is proven that a BAC as low as .005 affects drivings negatively? If you want the limit to be .015 or higher before someone is stopped is that really doing enough towards your “avoid harming others or their property”?Clover

            It is now shown that you do not want to stop someone for driving erratically and not following laws. How would you determine when someone is not trying to avoid harm to others?Clover

            • July 2, 2013 at 11:51 am

              Clover, you two-legged onager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_PsOVPaW4w) why do you continue to accuse me of defending tailgating? Please point out any instance of my doing so.

              You screech:

              “You say that someone with a BAC of .01 does not need to be stopped even though it is proven that a BAC as low as .005 affects drivings negatively? ”

              I argue (not “say”) that only those whose actual driving suggests impairment – for whatever reason – have given cause to be interfered with. Someone with a BAC of .01 (mouthwash level) is no more necessarily “drunk” (or even “impaired”) than you are less of a cement-head for insisting they are.

              Also, you wretched liar: I have repeatedly argued that I do support stopping someone who is driving erratically, whether because they’re drunk or senile or just inept (though not necessarily for failing to “follow laws,” which – again – says nothing as such about the person’s driving).

              You are apparently incapable of understanding that while alcohol does affect reaction times (and so on) it affects different people differently. Also that a given driver – one with excellent reflexes and high skill – is not necessarily impaired in any meaningful way and may be less impaired, in terms of his capacity to operate a motor vehicle, than a sober driver who happens to have poor reflexes, vision and low skill. These are obvious, self-evident statements of fact.

              And that by dint of all the above, it is wrong to generalize – to insist that everyone who happens to have “x” BAC is a “drunk driver” – i.e., incapable of safely driving home. It’s bullshit. And vicious bullshit, too. It is exactly the same as stating that all black people are “violent niggers” – on the basis that some black people are thugs.

              You are a cancer on humanity, Clover.

          • clover
            July 2, 2013 at 11:52 pm

            Eric Eric. You say “that while alcohol does affect reaction times (and so on) “. We finally agree! The .08 limit is a standard that is set just like minimum vision testing! The fact is that many are affected negatively with less than a .05 and our government was good enough to allow .08 before ticketing you! We all know it is impossible to follow someone for miles to verify they are good enough to drive safely. It is impossible to follow someone and determine that their their reflexes have been hindered and their judgement(and so on). So in effect if you do not want to stop someone and check them there is no way to keep thousands of dangerous or as you would call them poor drivers off the road just because they had been drinking! In effect you would be fine with your wife driving on the road with dangerous people!Clover

            Since we both know that you have to stop and check someone who has been drinking to see if they are affected, how would you determine if alcohol is affecting reaction times (and so on) “? If you want to wait and see if someone is weaving extremely on the roadway among other things then you want to allow drivers on the roadway that are well beyond the reaction time problem. Clover

            Eric I know you have not defended tailgating but others in your libertarian party say it is their right as a libertarian. Maybe you need to get everyone together to determine what you actually should be defending. From what it sounds like you would be OK to have the police stop a tailgater but you want the 10s of thousands of drunks that are at least or more dangerous to go free! Where does that fit into your “To live one’s life in such a way as to avoid harming others or their property “

            • July 4, 2013 at 8:55 am

              Clover,

              Yes, indeed. Alcohol does affect reaction times (and so on). Unlike you, I am capable of accepting facts. However, it is also a fact that it affects people differently – a fact you refuse to even acknowledge.

              It is also a fact that people vary in their baseline abilities, including reaction times, visual acuity, sense of spatial relationships and their skill as drivers. A driver who starts out with better reflexes, better vision – and higher skill – may very well be less meaningfully affected, in terms of his ability to drive safely, even with some alcohol in his system, than a driver whose “baseline” is lower. He may even be a better driver – in the sense that he’s more capable of anticipating the need to react (and reacting in an appropriate way) than a tee-totaling but marginally skilled driver.

              More facts you are either too obtuse or too mendacious to concede – because I suspect you know that to do so would vitiate your support for laws that treat every single person as a presumptively “impaired” driver on the basis, not of their actual driving, but solely on the basis of a BAC standard. For you, all that matters is that a driver is found to have “x” percentage of alcohol in his system. Thus, you don’t really care about impairment. Much less fairness. Otherwise, you would not support targeting people who haven’t done anything by stopping everyone in order to get a hypothetical “someone.” Also, you’d have no issue with the state (prosecution) having to come up with more than just a BAC reading to support a charge of “drunk” driving. Such as evidence of impaired driving. Put another way, if the prosecution cannot show the accused was not in control of his vehicle, as by weaving or wandering off the road (or something – some evidence of impaired ability to drive) then the charge would be dismissed.

              But, no. Clover wants a crusade against his personal bete noire. He’s not at all interested in “senile citizen” checkpoints, where everyone is pre-emptively checked for Alzheimer’s or other evidence of being addled. Why not “flexibility checkpoints,” Clover? After all, people who can’t move their bodies as fluidly as others are impaired, just as they are impaired by the consumption of alcohol. Does it matter that some are able to compensate for their lack of mobility/flexibility and remain competent drivers, even so? Oh, no! We must arrest and cage them all! For safety’s sake. I could go on and on – but why bother? You’re too dim to appreciate satire – much less a logical argument.

              Which brings me to your cement-headed incapacity to grasp that if you support randomly searching people without even the pretext of probable cause for one thing, then you have endorsed the use of such tactics for other things. “Getting drunks off the road” is no different as an excuse for using police state tactics against innocent drivers who haven’t done a blessed thing or given any reason whatsoever to suspect they may have than it would be to have cops conduct random checks of people’s homes in order to “keep our kids safe from predators” (or whatever).

              You are an imbecile – an utter fool – if you cannot comprehend that one thing implies another; that in law, precedent becomes practice.

              You, Clover – and the millions who “think” as you “think” – are the reason America has become a place where little kids must submit to pat downs of their private parts as their helpless parents look on in order to board an airplane; a place ruled by a government that openly admits to torturing people – that asserts the authority to have people killed without even the pretense of finding them guilty of something first.

              You, Clover, are the reason for places like Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and the Killing Fields.

              And you’re too fucking stupid to even see it.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            July 3, 2013 at 1:36 am

            Clover:

            “From what it sounds like you would be OK to have the police stop a tailgater but you want the 10s of thousands of drunks that are at least or more dangerous to go free!”

            You still haven’t learned anything. How can you prove that those drivers are “drunk”, by any definition and “dangerous” without first having evidence of such danger?

            The burden of proof is always on the accuser. If no evidence of “danger” is presented then a stop to investigate if the traveller is “drunk” is unlawful – and such because we’ve had the Right to “travel” unencumbered on public roads since issue of the Magna Carta in 1215. “Driving”, as per all Law dictionaries, is a paid occupation – controlled by gubberment and licensing.

            Far more people successfully travel intoxicated and are never caught than the ones that are by random stops and, there’s no evidence available that proves the traveller caught at the stop was doing anything dangerous if his vehicular control was perfectly adequate.

            Clover, the roads are FILLED with intoxicated people (drink, drugs, prescriptions, antihistamines, endorphins), including pedestrians, but you have no way of knowing. They surround you, irrespective of a 0.08 BAC Judge Dredd Law. There’s no escaping that fact. The cops might continue to unlawfully encumber people for breach of whatever “Law”, but it has no proven impact. They don’t have the stats. If they do, they’re fudged among many other factors.

            If you can’t take all of the above on board and all you can take away is this final sentence, I’d suggest you suffer from attention deficit disorder and get a reprogram.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 3, 2013 at 1:51 am

            Nice try, ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N.
            I gave her a whole handful of quality links discussing the issue and I asked for her thoughts about them.
            The response: Crickets.

            Here’s a sample of the links:

            Drunk Driving Laws Cause Drunk Driving Accidents
            http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/crovelli5.html

            Prohibiting Drunk Driving Is Not Self-Defense
            http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli41.1.html

            How To Convince Men To Drive Drunk
            http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli28.html

          • clover
            July 3, 2013 at 3:09 am

            CloverI had to laugh at some of those links. The reason for more drunk driving accidents is because they want to drive faster than they are capable of just because they want to look normal :-). What a joke! There is evidence that stricter enforcement of DUI laws works. The number of people that drive drunk is lower than ever for states and communities that have cracked down. I personally know guys that drink that no longer drive drunk because of the cost if they get caught and possible road checks. You can not argue with facts no matter how many stories you make up! Thousands of people are alive today because of more enforcement. Billions of dollars of proper damage is saved from more enforcement. Go do you own research and that is what you will find.

            • July 3, 2013 at 9:50 am

              Clover-Onager:

              Random searches of people’s homes would also “work” – in terms of apprehending wife-beaters, child abusers and so on. So also forcing every American to be fingerprinted and iris-scanned (and be scanned whenever out in public, so as to make sure no one does anything illegal – and to make it easier to catch those who do).

              I’ve pointed this out to you before, but you are too simple-minded (an Onager-Clover) to comprehend it. To grasp the principle at issue.

              You bray your applause of probable cause-free, utterly random (and thus, unreasonable by definition) stops/examinations of motorists in order to apprehend people who might be impaired by alcohol.

              Logically, it follows that you must also applaud random searches of people’s home, too.

              In other words, Onager, you have already applauded in principle any measure that could be argued will “work” to apprehend any given category of lawbreakers.

              You’ll eeeeehhh-ahhhh that it’s different, but it is not. The principle is exactly the same. The ends justify the means. The possibility that “someone” (anyone) might be doing something “illegal” justifies the surrender of every individual’s former right to be left in peace absent specific cause.

              Principles matter, Clover-Onager, because they set a precedent – the basis from which one thing is extrapolated from another. Of course, I realize I am using big words (and big ideas) that are beyond the ken of a two-legged Onager such as yourself. Eeeeeeee-ahhhhh! Eeeeeee-ahhhhhhh!

              It is my fervent prayer, Clover-Onager, that some day very soon you find yourself on the receiving end of the arbitrary authority you venerate.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 3, 2013 at 4:59 am

            It’s not a joke, Clover, it’s the way life is.
            For example, a guy in Texas is going to jail for life for his 8th D.U.I. and nothing more. The ‘stricter enforcement’ didn’t stop him at least eight times. The same can be said of 30 other individuals, just in that state.

            Your approach encourages men to drive drunk, it’s as simple as that.

            The Fact That Drunk Drivers ‘Choose’ to Drive Drunk Is Completely Irrelevant

            http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli38.1.html

            I noticed you used the phrase, “evidence that stricter enforcement of DUI laws works”
            Sure, many people stopped driving after drinking, however; overall, Evidence is not fact.
            Do you suppose better cars played a role?
            Or better designed and built roads?
            The nation has been awash in turning two lane roads into four lane divided hyways. Do you suppose that could skewer your so-called ‘facts’?

            Liberty is diminished and freedom is reduced as a result of your support for ‘sticter enforcement’. But that’s not your concern.
            Next up is anger tests, tiredness tests, and soreness tests, because these all contribute to accidents.

            Yeesh.

            Drunk Driving vs. Sober Driving: What’s the Difference?

            “Elderly drivers are merely one menacing group of drivers that we need to ruthlessly punish “before anyone gets hurt or killed.”” [Right?]

            http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli27.html

            Driving is dangerous. The Clovers of the world want to try and make an unsafe thing into something it is not.

            There is no way for you – or anyone – to know that the number of people who drive drunk is lower than ever for states and communities that have cracked down. I did my research, and that is what I found.

            Yours is, The Pathetic Argument for Prohibiting Drunk Driving
            http://www.lewrockwell.com/crovelli/crovelli33.1.html

            Anyway, I’ll say this, for an imbecile, time and again, you’re pretty good at derailing a thread off topic.

          • clover
            July 3, 2013 at 11:58 am

            CloverFirst of Eric, you talk about searching a house will help get rid of some violence? My family members are not endangered if you are beating up your wife as you call it! I have a right to not go to your house and if I do I would be willing to risk a gun in my face since you say it is your right. Our roadways are a public place and I have no control over dangerous people being their other than with police help! Public areas should be as free from dangerous people as possible. I could care less if you are beating your wife in your car while it is parked because it is not endangering 100s or thousands of people like a drunk does when he drives! If the police have evidence that you are beating your wife then they can get your house searched or if they see you are beating their wife they can force their way into your vehicle.

            DownshiftFast,do your research! Statistics do not change significantly from year to year without an external force. Car safety does not change significantly from one year to the next. There are not a lot of road changes from one year to the next. The statistics show a dramatic decrease in death rates and accident rates when there are increased enforcement changes for drunk driving!

            • July 3, 2013 at 12:25 pm

              Onager-Clover:

              A person who beats his wife or abuses his kids is a physical danger to anyone he comes in contact with – in private and public. A violent person who gets into a car is potentially violent to everyone around him.

              But you apparently only care when the potentially violent person might harm you.

              Eeeeeeee-ahhhh! Eeeeeeee-ahhh!

              Well, Clover-Onager, riddle me this: How can a person who drinks and drives in another state – a different one than the one you happen to live in – threaten your well-being in any way? Is it not exactly like your dismissing the wife beater? After all, he’s not harming you.

              Eeeeeeee-ahhhh! Eeeeeeee-ahhh!

              Just to point out the logical absurdity of your position.

              Further, your “drunk” is not necessarily a danger to anyone – because not all people who are “drunk” according to the arbitrary BAC standard are not capable of driving safely. This has been carefully explained to you, Onager-Clover. The fact that people process alcohol differently; the fact that some people start out with much better reflexes/skill (and judgment) than others, which means they’re still more competent behind the wheel, even with some alcohol in their system, than a sober but marginally competent driver with poor reflexes – and so on.

              In other words, the wife beater is known to be dangerous. He is dangerous. The “drunk” (as defined by BAC levels) is not. Possibly, perhaps. But not necessarily.

              Eeeeeeee-ahhhhh! Eeeeeeee-ahhhhh!

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            July 4, 2013 at 12:17 am

            Clover:

            “Thousands of people are alive today because of more enforcement. Billions of dollars of proper damage is saved from more enforcement.”

            Really? Did you find and ask them?

            Just saying so doesn’t make it true – but since doing such is a girlish argument makes no difference to you.

            Any stats you might find on that subject are deeply flawed because of all the other factors in play.

            “Car safety does not change significantly from one year to the next. “

            But more people are buying newer cars with increased safety features every year. You’re not good at cause-and-effect now are you?

            BAC limits vary globally between states and countries. That in itself renders such legislation pointless, aggressive and fake.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 4, 2013 at 2:39 am

            Many of the narrow and twisting two lane highways and city streets have been redesigned over the course of the latest economic ‘boom’ period into four lane divided roads. All throughout the construction period, and after completion of the newly designed roads, the result in my area has been far fewer fatalities due to the construction interruption and the newly designed roadways. This process expanded exponentially year after year. The effect would likely be taken advantage of by those who wished to show roadside sobriety checkpoints improved overall safety and reduced the numbers of people who drove after consuming alcohol.

            For decades the main narrow highways in my area (and likely most other areas, as described online by many) would see a deadly car wreck or two most every weekend. However; since the highways were divided and widened the fatalities have plummeted on these roadways. By 95% would not be out of the question.
            I have traveled some, and read the accounts of others, and with these samples it seems this is the case all across the nation.

            Furthermore, as the roadside sobriety checkpoints gained notoriety, it’s likely that people who have been drinking simply avoided those roads. Additionally, since the smoking bans in bars and restaurants took effect nationally it seems that more people have opted to stay home and drink for that reason, and not due to the roadside sobriety checkpoints. In all likelihood, the people visiting those who stayed home to drink may have taken residential streets or other streets and backside highways to avoid the well known roadside sobriety checkpoints. [I.e. whoever heard of a roadside sobriety checkpoint on a rural gravel road?]Therefore, the roadside sobriety checkpoint official statistics leading people to believe they are having a major impact, are just full of it.

            There are lies.
            There are damn lies.
            And then there’s statistics.

            Corrupt individuals in government use those false statistics to gain power and money.
            Other individuals outside of government who stand to benefit as a result of maintaining the status quo act in tandem with the Clovers of the world help to support this corruption, all the while decreasing liberty and freedom with their continuing support of the corrupt individuals and their system.

            Not to mention they all also help to maintain the vile prison-industrial-complex.

            It’s all very disgusting and revolting.
            You should be ashamed for being a part of it all.
            … /rant OFF.

          • BrentP
            July 4, 2013 at 2:40 am

            The conditioning and compartmentalization of the clover mind is remarkable indeed.

            Clover, with the right media campaign over time you’d welcome, no you would demand viewscreens in every home. What if your neighbor starts messing with the gas line in his home? What then? What if your neighbor removes the tag from his mattress? What if your neighbor is storing gasoline in an unapproved container near his furnace? What if your neighbor starts running a brothel and you know nothing about it? What if he starts creating child porn? What if he has women tied up in the basement? What if? All these horrors can be prevented with viewscreens!

            Are you a child molester Clover? If you weren’t you’d want the government to be able to come in our homes and make sure nothing illegal was going on.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 4, 2013 at 3:19 am

            Everything fits together like a glove.

            Must Watch: “If You Want A Picture of the Future, Imagine a Boot Stamping on a Human Face—Forever”

          • clover
            July 5, 2013 at 1:54 am

            CloverDownshiftFast5to1 from your post you lead us to believe that our government is evil and out to get us? You do not have a clue who the enemy is! Foreign governments are far more likely to endanger you! Criminal are thousands of times more likely to endanger you!. Identity theft and other things are easier all the time but you are worried about the government coming to you at gun point. I am endangered thousands of times more by poor lawless driving, criminals seeking out personal information and many other things. There is one in 100 million chance that the police will come to my door and endanger me! I have a 1 in 100 chance of a criminal doing something bad to me and a far greater chance than that for a driver breaking many laws to endanger me and my vehicle. Wouldn’t it be a better thing trying to fight the real dangers to you!

            • July 5, 2013 at 10:11 am

              Clover,

              What is the defining characteristic of a criminal?

              Is it that he breaks “the law”? This, apparently, is your definition. It is a legalistic definition that evades the question of right vs. wrong. Many things are (and have been) “illegal” – yet those who committed the acts involved (for example, having a beer during Prohibition, or selling their property to a prohibited class of person) are hardly “criminals” in that what they did was not wrong. Similarly, many actions that were perfectly “legal” at one time are today regarded as outrages – chattel slavery being the obvious one, but there are many others.

              My definition – the Libertarian definition – of “criminal” is a person who commits a wrong action, irrespective of “the law.” Taking that which is not yours, for instance, is always wrong – and the person who does so is always a criminal. So also physically assaulting a person, or threatening to do so in order to compel them to do as you say.

              Put another way, the aggressive (first-use) of violence or its threat against another person is the only truly “criminal” act because it encompasses all criminal acts.

              Now then, Clover, who (what) is the greatest thief in the world? Who – what – commits the most aggressive violence?

              The answer to both questions is so obvious a moderately bright eight-year-old ought to be able to gin it up. But not you, Clover.

              Eeeeeeeee-ahhhhh!

              Eeeeeeeee-ahhhhhh!

          • Mithrandir
            July 5, 2013 at 3:49 am

            Clover,

            Government has the system in place and the ability to harm anyone it chooses.

            The biggest difference between government and other criminals: Government considers all other criminals to be illegal.

            Your odds are worthless.

            If I were you I would not go gambling.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 5, 2013 at 4:03 am

            Yes, Clover. Our goberment – IS – out to get us. Haven’t you seen the billboards where they say just that?
            Wake the heck up!
            Foreign governments are NOT far more likely to endanger us.
            Wake the heck up!
            You are correct when you say, “Criminal are thousands of times more likely to endanger you!” that’s because our goberment and their minions are criminal. That kind of messes up your odds.
            Wake the heck up!
            The real dangers to me, are all supported by the likes of you.
            Wake the heck up!

            The Public’s Demand for Force

            “… foreign expansionism has nurtured terrorism, which in turn contributes to a host of associated factors like the surveillance state and the police state. Now I want to go deeper.”…

            http://lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff412.html

            Government Against the People: It Gets Worse In the Late Stages

            “The Philosophy of “Government Against the People” at Work”…

            http://lewrockwell.com/rosenberg/rosenberg-p20.1.html

            Understanding the Progressive Mind

            “… State power is borderline mentally ill and is driven by evil intentions. They might interact with people on the “outside” of Progressivism, but they have no respect for them, nor do they wish even to understand any other point of view. There IS no other viewpoint, period.” …

            http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson353.html

            Get with it, Clover. Stop being a stick in the mud.

          • BrentP
            July 5, 2013 at 4:40 am

            Clover, are you too stupid to see the scam?
            The US federal government goes around the planet angering people then says you have to pay for it to protect you.
            Since government does it on the world stage, guess what they do domestically as well?

            Dammit have some understanding of history, of how governments work. Stop being such a schmuck.

          • BrentP
            July 5, 2013 at 7:06 am
          • clover
            July 6, 2013 at 3:00 am

            OK Eric. So you are saying you are a criminal. Drunks are criminals? Both are threatening against other people. You threaten everyone that is on the road with you when you decide you want to. But then you say it is only threatening when it kills someone? Are you really saying that threatening others is actually OK? I can live with the government but I might not live with your libertarian right of endangering and threatening others!
            Clover
            “Put another way, the aggressive (first-use) of violence or its threat against another person is the only truly “criminal” act because it encompasses all criminal acts. ”

            Eightsouthman you say our government is evil? There were more people killed and injured in 911 than any innocent people from our government the past 100 years! You just do not have a brain! There have been hundreds of thousands more people injured or killed by drunks the past hundred years than by our government. There have been thousands of more people killed and injured by your freedom of endangering others on the highway than our government has. What problems do you think we should fix first, the ones that occur thousands of more times or an isolated case that happened once? Get some common sense!

          • Me2
            July 6, 2013 at 2:02 pm

            Some moron named Clover wrote this – “There were more people killed and injured in 911 than any innocent people from our government the past 100 years!”

            The stupidest and most obviously inaccurate thing you have ever said Clover. Kudos, quite the achievement considering your record of BS.

            In the last 100 years the US Government has killed MILLIONS of innocents you fucking retard. That is just directly, never mind the created and supported death squads in numerous countries, and thousands of innocent citizens routinely killed by the police for ‘not complying’.

            Of course in your chamber pot of a brain, anyone killed by the government was not innocent as the government could never be wrong.

          • dom
            July 6, 2013 at 2:19 pm

            Here’s more on that Third Amendment violation in Henderson, Nevada:

            http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/05/nevada-family-says-police-occupation-vio

          • BrentP
            July 6, 2013 at 3:59 pm

            There were more people killed and injured in 911 than any innocent people from our government the past 100 years!

            Delusional.
            Your loving government has killed or taken actions that resulted in the death of millions of innocent people in the last dozen years alone. Untold millions since the 1960s. Go read up on just one of many… put “Plain of Jars” into a search engine.

            • July 6, 2013 at 4:44 pm

              Clover defies belief.

              Just one of many possible examples he’ll reflexively ignore/evade/dismiss/rationalize away:

              In the manufactured, unjustified and absolutely unnecessary war of aggression waged against Iraq, the most conservative lowball estimates are at least 100,000 dead at the hands of “our” government, not including the thousands of “our troops” killed (many more than the number of people killed on nahhhhhleven) and tens of thousands gravely wounded, many of them permanently crippled for life.

              And lives destroyed? How about the millions of non-violent drug “offenders” who have been imprisoned and screwed-over for life as a result of that (and a felony conviction that makes them all-but-unemployable)? People whose only “crime” was to have been caught growing/manufacturing or using or selling or simply possessing arbitrarily illegal “drugs.”

              Of course, Clover won’t see it that way. These people deserved what they got. After all, the violated “the law.”

              Clover is living proof that double-think is not just a literary device in a fictional novel.

      • skunkbear
        June 30, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Clover, “You can always leave!”

        What do you mean “leave”? Do you mean that we Liberty lovers should leave what is currently the borders of amerika? This assumes that we do not also have blood, sweat, and tears invested here just as much as you clovers, probably more so. We have the same right to claim this land as anyone else.

        Or do you mean we should leave by taking our rightful piece of this land and peaceably withdraw ourselves from being governed by the rest of you clovers in your amerika? I would love for this to be the case but I seriously doubt you would agree to leave us be free to govern ourselves differently than the way you think we should be. We are willing to let you and your fellow clovers live the way you want but are you willing to let us do the same?

      • June 30, 2013 at 7:50 pm

        You “have control” over the government?? Name ONE case where that is true.
        ALL political governments are criminal operations. They exist as the power structure to support the exploitation of the many for the benefit of the few elites. The only difference between them and street criminals is that they clothe and market themselves better.

      • Joe
        June 30, 2013 at 8:43 pm

        He wasn’t advocating any of what you wrote about you fk ing twit, if you want to live in a police state why don’t you LEAVE for China or Russia. WHAT A FK ING MORON YOU ARE. Go shove you’re STUPID FK ING head back up Obama’s A $$ while you wait for your government check to arrive in the mail.

        • June 30, 2013 at 8:46 pm

          Thanks for the back-up, Joe.

          Clover’s a piece of work, isn’t he?

          • Medievalmom71
            July 1, 2013 at 5:00 am

            I am wondering how old “Clover” is. From the nonsense and the arguments that have no firm standing, I would guess barely old enough to vote, if that old.

            • July 1, 2013 at 9:23 am

              We’d like to know, too. But Clover is a coward – in addition to a liar (and an imbecile). Unlike most of the regulars here, who use their real names and/or have described their backgrounds (when backgrounds are relevant), Clover adamantly refuses to release any details about himself.

          • KHamburger
            July 2, 2013 at 1:52 pm
      • Simon Jester
        June 30, 2013 at 8:50 pm

        Clover : “Could someone tell me why it is better to let the criminal and dangerous people run our country?”

        They already ARE running the country. You have no control over the government at this point – if you believe so, you are delusional. The criminals, the terrorists – they are in DC, they are running this country.

        The idea that those of us that want less (or no) government are in favor of crime running rampant are mistaken. Just as those that equate anarchy with chaos are. Anarchy is simply the lack of government. Why do you believe that everyone will be completely out of control with out government?

        If the government wasn’t there, threatening you with violence, would you simply run amok? If so, perhaps that is why you believe it of others. If not, why do you think you are so special in this regard?

        “Our” government is completely out of control. There are no limits to what they believe they are “authorized” to do at this point. It is up to us to help them understand these limits.

        • Eightsouthman
          June 30, 2013 at 9:58 pm

          Simon, a couple weeks ago I got this e from Randy Neugebauer, my Rep. rep there, a real douchebag. He informed his “constituents”(guess that leaves me out) he had to get back to work and pass the new NDAA bill so Fatherland Security and the military, those under-appreciated heroes who defend us and keep us safe, could get paid. WTF? Get Paid? What sort of shit is this? You telling me before NDAA these pricks were taking IOU’s, a Lone Star card perhaps? Give me a break. I read this crap late at night but I’m still incensed the next day so I make one of my frequent calls and found myself almost incoherent I was so mad talking to the little prick who answered the phone as if I were just a know-nothing he had to placate but really didn’t give a shit if he did. I wanted to jerk him through the phone…. No doubt I’m on a list now if I weren’t already, well, another list I’d guess.

        • clover
          July 6, 2013 at 1:21 pm

          Simon Jester tell me how our government has changed for the negative over your lifetime to the point where you say you can not live with it? Personally I have seen no change other than now there are more road rage drivers, tailgaters, aggressive drivers etc. That is a sigh to me of less government control. Tell me how I am wrong?
          I'm a fucking idiot!

      • June 30, 2013 at 9:56 pm

        Sounds like someone’s neck is comfy with a boot on it.

        Liberty and Freedom are not anarchy. Except maybe to the inmate mentality.

        Slave.

        • clover
          July 8, 2013 at 1:02 am

          Yes toaster liberty and freedom is anarchy in the mind of guys like Eric, Brent, Dom etc. Their driving shows it. Their views show it! They feel that their reckless driving is fine endangering others. Things like drunk driving is fine because that is liberty and freedom? I also believe in liberty and freedom but not when it is endangering others. Not when it causes harm to others. Not when it goes against the rights of millions of others. Below is the definition of anarchy. When you allow tailgating, reckless driving, weaving through traffic at a high speed, drunk driving and the other dozen things it is obviously a form of anarchy!
          1. a state of society without government or law. 2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control
          I'm a fucking idiot!

          • BrentP
            July 8, 2013 at 2:14 am

            You certainly are mental.
            Some other driver endangers me and if I so much as sound the horn you accuse me of ‘rage’. Yet then you turn around and make this accusation above.
            Seek help. You need it.

          • July 8, 2013 at 9:49 am

            Poor ol’ Clover!

            Still can’t noodle out the difference between the possibility of harm and the actuality.

            Still refuses to accept the fact that just because “Smith” can’t drive competently under given conditions, then “Jones” and “Adams” must be presumed incompetent, too (even when there’s no evidence to support that belief).

            I know perfectly well this is a waste of finger-dancing, but:

            Has it ever occurred to you, Clover, that the guy who wrecks his car might just be a poor driver – irrespective of alcohol? That alcohol makes an already poor driver worse? That problem is not necessarily the alcohol – but rather, the person consuming it?

            Think, now.

            A very good driver is still a better driver, even with some alcohol in his system, than the average/poor driver is sober. I’d be happy to prove the point by drinking say three beers over 90 minutes, then going heads-up against my mother-in-law (or you) in a test of driving skill.

            I’ll try to reach you by way of analogy:

            Dom is a martial arts master. He could have a BAC of .15 and still kick my ass five ways to Sunday. On the other hand, I can probably outrun him – even with a BAC of .10 – because I’m lighter and can run faster/farther, being a conditioned runner.

            Do you suppose that, even with a few drinks in him, your skills/reflexes are superior to those of an NBA forward?

            Yes, these are extreme examples. But the point stands, Clover. Individuals vary in their abilities; their natural skills and training. You’ll never be able to write better than I – no matter how sober you are (or how “impaired” by whatever I might be). On the other hand, I’ll never run a four minute mile… and so on.

            And the same goes for driving.

            Some people are simply better drivers than others. They have superior reflexes/vision – or have acquired more skill. Such drivers can still control a car better even with alcohol in their systems than others can sober. Their higher baseline – physical capabilities and skill – compensates for the booze. True, they may no longer be as competent with the alcohol in their systems. But they”re still more competent than average – and certainly, competent enough. Or at least, not necessarily incompetent merely by dint of having “x” BAC.

            Why should anyone be punished unless they – specifically – have done something to cause harm first? Or at the very least, done something to indicate that they’re about to cause harm? And no, Clover, having “x” BAC – is not, as such, evidence of incompetence behind the wheel any more than being over age 80 – as such – is evidence of being incompetent behind the wheel. Punishing someone just because they have “x” BAC – and for no other reason – is exactly like punishing someone just because they’re 80.

            Can you see?

            No, of course not.

            You continue to demand the one-size-fits-all (and dumbed-down) standard. The blanket punishment of everyone based on the actions of a few someones. Not just “drunks” – as defined by your arbitrary BAC standard – and irrespective of the actual driving of the people involved. Everyone. People who have a “0” BAC. Who haven’t a drop of alcohol in their system. They, too, must be waylaid at gunpoint – forced to stop and submit to an interrogation and (at the least) visual search of their persons and property. Without even the pretext of probable cause. For no reason at all – – insofar as any supportable suspicion of their having done something illegal or wrong.

            And you’re too feeble-minded to understand what that implies. That, quite literally, what goes around comes around. That one day, the same vicious justifications used to destroy the liberty of those who haven’t harmed anyone by their actions can and will be used to harm you, too.

            And you’ll say, “but I didn’t do anything wrong!”

            Perhaps only then will you understand.

        • clover
          July 8, 2013 at 11:25 pm

          CloverOK Eric I get it. There is not a huge number of traffic deaths and accidents over the weekend because of drunk drivers, it is just that poor drivers only drive on the weekend? I have some Florida land to sell you.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 9, 2013 at 2:39 am

            It could be that the poor road designs are amplified on the weekend.

            Also, the last time I had a big fat paycheck I blew it on a huge steak dinner. I ate too much. I couldn’t concentrate, I almost crashed.

            I didn’t have a drop of alcohol.

            If I did, and I did crash, I’m sure they’d blame it one the alcohol.

            On another weekend I argued with my better half while driving – neither of which I do during the weekday – I almost ran over a pedestrian!

            If I’d had a drop of alcohol, I’m sure they’d blame it on that. Seems like you do too, Clover.

            It’s funny how you don’t see how people behave differently on the weekends vs. the boring weekday.

            Clover, is Monday your Friday?
            Or is every day the same?

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 9, 2013 at 2:49 am

            Also, there’s some really nice farmland and beautiful beach front property in Florida I’d like to own.
            Would you be selling it real cheap?
            I can only come check it out on the weekend, I’m busy all week, so maybe I can pack my cooler up with root beer and come check it out? Maybe bring the distracting dog and the screaming kids, which I don’t normally bring along on weekdays,… and I might be sunburnt and have a headache from that if I come on Sunday. So be extra kind when I get there.

            No, those won’t affect the statistics, and if I had just a drop of alcohol you can be sure your buddies in the occupation army will blame it all on the alcohol if there’s any kind of mishap. I’m sure they’ll shoot the dog and take the brats, too. That way we can rack up the CPS numbers as well.

          • BrentP
            July 9, 2013 at 3:53 am

            So Clover, you’re admitting your police state is failure.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 9, 2013 at 4:23 am

            BrentP wrote, “So Clover, you’re admitting your police state is failure.”

            That is so perfectly said.

            I’ll try to remember that, it’s the best answer.

            Of course, the Clover’s of the world will twist the meaning and say in a blood lust way:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kUmNNummF4

            It’s clear that the Clovers of the world seek ruination of the culture and society. Nothing less will suffice. After all, ‘Total Domination’ is their motto, Monday through Sunday.

          • clover
            July 9, 2013 at 11:41 am

            CloverDownshiftFast5to1, no the land that you and Eric are buying from me is in the middle of a swamp. It sounds to me like you should not be driving. Just like the drunks should not be driving. Sorry but the increase in accidents on the weekend usually finds alcohol as the contributor. Yes there are those accidents also caused by road rage libertarian but they are out there every day. We have video proof of that.

          • Mithrandir
            July 9, 2013 at 12:37 pm

            Clover,

            I did not know you owned Walt Disney World.

            DownshiftFast5to1, no the land that you and Eric are buying from me is in the middle of a swamp.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 9, 2013 at 12:38 pm

            Ha. How does “increase in accidents” find anything?

            Also, gator farming might be profitable.

            You really do have no clue, Clover.

          • clover
            July 9, 2013 at 11:13 pm

            CloverDownshiftFast5to1 an increase in accidents means something! More deaths means something. The fact that many of these occur because a drunk driver caused them means something. I know a mentally challenged person could not figure that out.

            • July 10, 2013 at 10:20 am

              Why fixate on “drunks,” Clover?

              Is it not outrageous that dangerous old people are “allowed” to drive with virtual impunity? After all, it is a fact that, as we age, vision, reflexes and so on tend to decline. People over a certain age are, ipso facto, more likely to be “impaired” than people below a certain age. Not all older people, of course. But just as you’ve argued with regard to alcohol consumption, some old people are impaired by dint of being old. Let’s make sure they’re all treated as presumptively impaired! Not on the basis of their actual driving. Oh no. Just make it illegal to “drive while old.”

              Think of the lives it would save!

          • clover
            July 10, 2013 at 11:38 pm

            CloverEric you say we should let drunks be on the road just because there may be an old person that does not drive well? At least most states have testing for older people. They often have to take vision tests and if they get old enough they have driving tests every year. Most states are doing something about bad drivers that are old. You want us to do nothing about drunk drivers that kill and injure 10s of thousands of more people than the old drivers you are complaining about! Clover

            Tell me Eric how many 100s of thousands of deaths by drunks are you willing to accept without doing anything?

          • Shazaam
            July 11, 2013 at 12:45 am

            Egads, a “cloverus maximus” !!!

            The last time a M.A.D.D. fundraiser called me, I helpfully suggested that they rename their organization and attack a real problem. Medical mistakes and prescription interactions. They could become Mothers Against Dumb Doctors and keep the initials. Since there are 200,000 deaths a year due to medical mistakes and prescription drug interactions, they could have a much greater impact saving lives. Think about it, 22 people die each and every hour (a Sandyhook every hour) due to mistakes in the medical industry.

            I thought I was being very helpful as M.A.D.D. is currently fighting a small non-problem compared to the casualties inflicted by the medical system. And that’s before Obama-care kicks in!!! M.A.D.D. could make a real difference working to improve the medical industry!!!

            For some reason, she hung-up on me.

            And M.A.D.D. hasn’t called me since.

            I don’t understand…….

          • clover
            July 11, 2013 at 1:04 am

            CloverShazaam, we have thousands of fewer deaths and hundreds of thousands of fewer accidents each year because we are doing something against drunk driving. Since people die in other ways are you saying we need more deaths also from drivers that make the dangerous decision to endanger others? You call all of the deaths by medical mistakes the true problem. Tell us how to fix medical problems we would all like to know? A 5 year old can give you the solution to our drunk driving problem. Surely you can tell us how to fix the medical problem.CloverClover

          • BrentP
            July 11, 2013 at 3:42 am

            Shazaam: MADD called me the other day. I wish I were so creative.

            Clover: The problem with drunk driving was that people like you considered them “accidents” much like you still consider lots of bad driving “accidents”. Now that drunk driving is no longer an “accident” but the result of decisions things are better. Now how about addressing all the bad sober driving that isn’t an accident? Oh wait, you defend that but are too chicken to do it to a cop at 2am. Or at any time, but at 2am it’s a sign of DUI, which lots of common driving is.

          • Shazaam
            July 11, 2013 at 3:01 pm

            “Cloverus maximus”, your government school indoctrination is showing.

            Shazaam, we have thousands of fewer deaths and hundreds of thousands of fewer accidents each year because we are doing something against drunk driving. Since people die in other ways are you saying we need more deaths also from drivers that make the dangerous decision to endanger others? You call all of the deaths by medical mistakes the true problem. Tell us how to fix medical problems we would all like to know? A 5 year old can give you the solution to our drunk driving problem. Surely you can tell us how to fix the medical problem.

            How do you know how many lives are “saved” due to the campaign against drunk driving? Have you ever questioned the statistics? You sound like you trust the government to never lie to you.

            If you are capable, please re-read my previous posting and please attempt to comprehend that I was in no way calling for more drunk driving deaths. Take your time. We are patient. Sound-out the hard words if you have to. We don’t mind.

            Take a deep breath.

            My point to the M.A.D.D. fundraiser was that their drunk driving battle was won. They got laws changed to get the repeat offenders jailed. They raised awareness of the problem of multiple repeat offenders. Of course, law enforcement jacked-up the fines and turned the effort into a major revenue generating enterprise. Still, it will be very difficult to reduce the numbers further. The battle M.A.D.D. set out to fight has been effectively won.

            Thus it was my opinion that M.A.D.D. should target the problems in the medical industry. I personally know 3 people who almost died due to prescription drug interactions. All prescription drugs are metabolic poisons of some kind.

            How many prescriptions are you taking? Do you know that they don’t interact in a way that might kill you? The statistics say you are far more likely to be killed by your doctor than a drunk driver….

          • clover
            July 12, 2013 at 9:24 pm

            CloverShazaam we are doing something about prescription drug interaction! We have new computer systems at pharmacies to check for these interactions, we have pharmacists who are supposed to check such things. To say we are doing nothing about it is pure stupidity. Yes drugs can react differently from person to person but that is the chance you are taking and that is why drugs go through so much trial phases. Clover

            How do I know drunk driving enforcement works? For one it is a proven fact that drinking reacts poorly with driving. Two, I personally know people that no longer drink and drive in the fear of getting caught. Three, when there was enforcement changes from one year to the next for enforcement during holidays it showed a dramatic change in statistics. I could care less if you disagree. The fact is people change behaviors if they have a brain. Clover

            Would you speed if there was a $50,000 fine and a year in jail if you drive 1 mph over the limit? Would you drink and drive if it cost you 5 or 10 grand and a loss of license for 6 months to a year? If you are one that would not change behavior then you would be brainless.Clover

          • Shazaam
            July 12, 2013 at 11:28 pm

            Oh yeah, a primo example of “cloverus maximus” as a product of government schooling!!! Alas it’s an all to common find.

            Well twinkletoes, lemme tell you something about “your” precious pharmacy computer system. It’s crap. It does not work. Period.

            Reason? It was designed to unearth folks who were taking to many pain medications. The “Puritans” are afraid that someone, somewhere might get high off of their pain medications. (Puritans: people deathly afraid that someone, somewhere might be enjoying themselves)

            And I know your precious drug interaction system doesn’t work because I sat on a grand jury where an individual who was using Medicare had visited 40+ different doctors for pain medication. Medicare paid each and every doctor as there are no controls on how many doctors a Medicare recipient can see. (Medicare recipient is the PC replacement for my preferred label of “tax-parasite”) Now Medicare would only pay for the first prescription, he had to pay for the other 40+. Of course the accused was pulling down an estimated $80,000 per year selling the pain pills he purchased using this little scheme. And since it was different doctors, your precious “pharmacy computer system” didn’t even blink. The accused only got investigated because of traces of cocaine in his urine at one of his doctors visits. Of course he also was abusing the “safety net”/”voter purchasing system” by living in tax-payer funded housing, collected the max in food stamp assistance and had 3 “Obama-Phones” for some reason. A perfect example of how well government controls work. (Hint to “cloverus maximus”: government controls never work well if at all)

            I have a relative who mans a poison control hotline, and thus I know that your precious “cloverus maximus” prescription control system rarely kicks anything dangerous. Since there is no liability to the pharmacy if the patient dies, why would they reject the sale? If the patient didn’t read the side effects fine print, well, to bad for them…… Follow the money, kicking potentially dangerous prescriptions might result in lost sales. Good luck passing a law to protect “cloverus maximus” from that one. The pharmaceutical companies all make massive contributions to the DC-Law-Mart and get the laws they want.

            All in all, you are still ten times more likely to be killed by a doctor than by a drunk or speeding driver.

            I’ll not argue that ethanol in large quantity impairs reaction time. Nor will I argue that age and / or dementia won’t have the same effect. Personally, the last time I came close to an accident was when I was driving sick. I had a bad case of the flu and nearly creamed someone. No medications, no nothing, just sick. Had I killed someone under those circumstances, I was, under the law, driving un-impaired and therefore legally.

            In your “cloverus maximum” world, where “cloverus maximus” forces everyone to do what you want them to at the point of a gun, would you also advocate a 10 grand penalty and 6 month license suspension for driving when ill??

            And you do realize that your massive penalties and/or jail time is simply using government as your instrument to impose the will of “cloverus maximus” on the populace. Imposing your will by using the law with attendant massive penalties and jail time is no different that pointing a gun at someone and barking orders. The government tax-parasites are more than happy to comply as more enforcement means more money and in their minds, more power.

            What happens when someone ignores a government demand to pay a fine or the government demand that someone submit to their will? At some point the escalation of force will involve violence and guns.

            Is that your perfect world? Really? I wish we could transport you back in time to 1937… You’d love it there. So orderly.

            And the world thought that such “legal” violence was put away after the Nuremberg Trials. Yet here we are with “cloverus maximus” demanding that the government force the populace to follow “cloverus maximus’s” orders with the use of the government’s monopoly on violence.

          • clover
            July 13, 2013 at 3:35 pm

            CloverShazaam nice try but that is why they have multiple people on our juries because it sure look like you do not have a clue what you are talking about! Are you saying that our government is writing our pharmacies software? You are clueless. You say our system allows drug interaction and is killing people then your proof is someone going to multiple doctors and pharmacies to skip around the system. Is that your only proof you could come up with? I say if you are going to multiple pharmacies and multiple doctors getting medication and not telling anyone of the other medications that you are taking then I could care less if you die because you sure don’t!CloverClover

            Yes if we had a way to determine you should not be driving while you are sick then we would need to have a law for it. The problem with this is that you would need a doctor or a series of tests to determine if you are well enough to drive. CloverCloverClover

            In the end that makes no difference to the fact that we know that people are more dangerous when they have had 4 or more drinks in a short time. We have a BAC limit of .08 in most if not all states. Other countries are going off of tests that people are driving poorly at levels well below that and have a .05 limit. The only reason we have laws for DUI is that people are not smart enough to know they can not drive safely with a dozen drinks in them and go out and kill people. Punishment and risk of punishment works for many people to not drive when in a poor driving condition. I could care less if you say that is it is the government forcing others to do what they want. The fact is that driving drunk kills and injures people and we have put the responsibility to our government to make and enforce laws to improve our safety while in public areas like our roads. It is no different than enforcing tailgating and reckless driving laws.

          • Shazaam
            July 13, 2013 at 5:01 pm

            My my…. A true total “cloverus maximus”.

            Churned-out by government schooling with a deeply engrained belief that “Government is good, more government is better.”

            Your reading comprehension skills are perhaps below sub-par even for a government schooled “cloverus maximus”. Though it’s much more likely I was simply expecting to much.

            You didn’t read the bit about the poison hotline did you? Or you chose to not comprehend it. Perhaps, like most examples of “cloverus maximus” your eyes skip a beat and your brain shuts down when you encounter information that runs contrary to your government school conditioning. It’s a pitiful, and not unusual behavior to find in “cloverus maximus”

            I find it hilarious that your logic skills are so dis-jointed that you cannot follow a few paragraphs and make logical, intelligent responses. Your non-sequiturs into your own personal axe grinding are just sad.

            It would appear that as a “cloverus maximus” you want nanny government to make you all safe. You want laws to protect you from everything and anyone that might harm you. As a typical “cloverus maximus” a pitiful creature living a desperately fearful existence.

            My advice to a “cloverus maximus”? Avoid doctors at all costs. That will do the most to keep you alive longer since doctors are 10 times more likely to kill you than other drivers. Don’t drive, ever. It’s not safe enough for “cloverus maximus”. Stay out of the sun. Stay indoors all the time. Dispose of any and all weapons on your property. If your home is invaded, call 911. When seconds count, nanny government and the police are just minutes away. Always trust the government and it’s police forces to protect you. That way you can maximize your dreary, risk-free, safe “cloverus maximus” time on the planet. (you won’t enjoy your existence, but you will be safe, and that is the prime directive for a “cloverus maximus”)

            Though you do realize that life will always end in death, no matter how much you plead with nanny government to make it otherwise.

            I really do feel sorry for you.

          • clover
            July 13, 2013 at 8:38 pm

            CloverShazaam, you do not want me to be safe because you want dangerous drunks on the road? What are you saying? I am to take it upon myself to make roads safe? Do you want me to hang outside of bars with a high powered gun to take care of business when they get into their car staggering? Tell me what right does another person have to endanger others by drinking or other dangerous road driving? I have seen examples of libertarians taking care of other drivers on the road. They use road rage on others and leave it up to themselves how much they want to endanger others. Is that really what you want?
            Clover
            You have the right not to go to a doctor. I know many people that lived another 20 years or more because they did go to the doctor. Did you add them to your list of how dangerous doctors are? You are stupid. I have seen them repair hearts, clear up cancer and fix constant pain. I can only hope that you stay away from a doctor. It is pretty much like I could care less if you drive dangerously as long as you are the only one on the road at the time.CloverCloverClover

          • July 13, 2013 at 8:54 pm

            Shazaam – Everything you say will be used to feed clover’s strawman. About the only thing he is good for is for future historians to look back at to understand the meandering mindlessness of the average state worshiping bootlicking troglodyte of the time.

          • Shazaam
            July 14, 2013 at 2:42 am

            Aye.

            This “cloverus maximus” is indeed a pitiful specimen. I had always wondered how slaves and serfs in days gone by could stand to live under the boot of their lord or master. It would appear that the sub-species “cloverus maximus” is a craven and fearful creature and actually prefers to live in bondage. It’s so much more predictable and “cloverus maximus” is relieved of responsibility for his own fate.

            “cloverus maximus” is deathly afraid to live free and be responsible for his own actions. Afraid of others living free, lest in their freedom, they expose him for being such a pitiable fearful coward.

            Thus I pity “cloverus maximus”. He is terrified of personal responsibility. The saddest part is that there are many specimens of “cloverus maximus” out there. All of them pitifully afraid of being responsible for their own lives and actions.

            Future generations will indeed wonder about them. Do the over-medicated, regimented, government schools create these creature? Or are they just born cowards?

          • clover
            July 14, 2013 at 2:59 am

            CloverShazaam fine then. If you want dangerous drivers and others to be free that is fine with me. We can only hope that those people kill you and your family and friends and not mine! I guess to you death is the ultimate freedom. Go for it.
            Clover

          • July 14, 2013 at 3:18 am

            See what I mean, Shazaam? This fuckhead is dumber than mud.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            July 14, 2013 at 4:16 am

            I wonder if EPA’s Clover is Cristina Silva?

            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/13/AP-Reporter-on-Zimmerman-Verdict-So-We-Can-All-Kill-Teenagers-Now

            If not, they both seem to run at about the same speed. Backward and fucked up.

      • huzzah
        July 1, 2013 at 2:16 am

        you clearly missed the point.

      • RS
        July 1, 2013 at 3:05 am

        Say again?

      • Geraldine
        July 3, 2013 at 2:55 am

        Hello, The criminals and dangerous people do run our government. Please troll on a more frequented site. Thank you in advance.

      • G3Ken
        July 10, 2013 at 4:22 am

        “Assuming” you are correct, what do you say about this ruling. The police break your front door in with a battering ram, maybe fling in a flash bang grenade for good measure. Awakened by all this noise, screaming, etc, you incorrectly assume someone is breaking into your home. You pick up your rifle and begin firing at the erstwhile intruders. You MIRACULOUSLY manage to live.

        But…..they got the wrong address and had no business raiding YOUR home. It is irrelevant that you believed in your heart of hearts that you were defending your life and the lives of your family, you WILL be sent to prison for murder. Do you still think the government is on the side of justice? If so, how? You did what, if they were intruders with criminal intent, you would be justified and go free. Since they are your government masters, although you had no way of knowing at the time, you spend the rest of your days being tortured by inmates and corrections officers. Still believe the government is right, even when they rule in the the face of absolute ridiculousness?

    • scarlett
      June 30, 2013 at 1:16 am

      You depict a very unhealthy, depressing state of affairs in the minds of even the older people….I remember something of ‘true freedom’….in my childhood, tho forced to go to gov.t schools….

      • Eightsouthman
        June 30, 2013 at 2:48 am

        scarlett, I guess the male population back then had all the advantages. I lived it, saw it. By about the time we were ten nobody had the nerve to tell us to bend over at our desks and put our heads between our legs. The barbershop(don’t know why barbers always die and they find huge caches of arms)had a sign that was almost identical to the one in schools but it said. In Case of Nuclear Attack(as if you’d ever know), bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ever-loving ass goodbye. It wasn’t lost on the average guy. Did they have anything at the beauty shop like that? I don’t remember seeing it as my family had friends in the bizness.

    • Jon
      June 30, 2013 at 1:41 am

      None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
      -Goethe

      Same here dude, its hard to deal with the statists that surround us every day, but I think that now of all times more and more people are becoming aware of the immoral and illogical existence of the State and who knows maybe we will have LibPar in our lifetimes ^_^ Good luck to you too

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