Clover Taxonomy V

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It’s time for another installation in our ongoing elaboration of the taxonomy of Homo Cloverensus – aka The American Clover. His characteristics – and doings. How to spot, categorize – and avoid.Clover Harley rider

Herewith the latest addendum from the field:

* The Harley Clover

This Clover has managed to ruin the former outlaw image of bikers in general – and Harley riders in particular. He got his first bike – a $25,000 dresser – at age 47.

And rides it like an 87-year-old.

He’s the only motorcyclist who rides slower than most people drive. Which of course wouldn’t be a problem . . . if he just pulled off (or over) and let the people stacking up behind him proceed on their way at a speed that’s at least close to the posted lawful maximum. Instead, the Harley Clover will coast by every overlook and turn-out, his multitude of flags flapping in the breeze- his leather-jacketed, rhinestone-festooned stuffed bear passenger mocking you all the while.

Watch out for him coming the other way, too. That 900 pound dresser he bought? It often gets away from him in the curves. He’ll frequently need at least a third of your lane to  make it ’round the bend.Following Clover

*  The Six Lengths Clover

Maintaining a safe following distance is a good thing – but this Clover takes it to an extreme. He leaves a football field-length gap between himself and the car ahead of him. If that car contains another Clover, it’ll be almost impossible to get around both of them. By the time you pass the Clover directly in front of you, you’ll have run out of road (and time) to get around the second Clover. Particularly infuriating is the six length Clover’s notorious habit of randomly increasing – and decreasing – the gap. He’ll bunch up close to the car ahead when it slows for a curve – then ease back to his usual 100 yard following distance when the road straightens out.

* Family Stick Figure Cloverclover stick figures

A Clover characteristic is narcissism. This unfortunate trait manifests in many ways, including the archetypical Cloverish acts of hogging the left lane – and pulling out in front of you such that you’re forced to slam on your brakes to accommodate Clover’s slow-motion pace. But, just as the skunk has its signature stripe – and signature smell – so also the Clover has external characteristics that can help you spot – and avoid – him. A sure sign that the car ahead of you is carrying a Clover is the presence of those noxious stick-figure family figures. Clover thinks you need to be made aware of how many kids he has – their age range and sex, too. That is what’s known in law enforcement as a clue. A clue that you’re dealing with a self-important clown who touts successful reproduction as achievement – and  who is almost certainly addled by over-arching mother hen instincts. Whose world revolves around juice boxes and Pixar. Who can’t be bothered to look in the rearview. Who takes up two spots at the supermarket – or parks you in so that you’ve got to use the passenger side door to gain access to your vehicle. Who will squat interminably at the drive-thru while awaiting each of his brood’s pondering over the menu, including Q&A about multiple elaborate special orders.

See also: Magnetic ribbons (various colors/causes), American flag/eagle stickers.

* Old Car CloverGreen clover

I’ve got antique vehicles. I know they’re sometimes fragile – like old people – and have to be driven gingerly. But – not being a Clover – I will adjust my driving accordingly and not expect others to adjust theirs to accommodate mine (and the disabilities of my arthritic old car). Not so the Old Car Clover. When he decides to take his stone stock 1933 Model A Ford out for a toodle, he’ll expect you to pretend you’re also driving a ’32 Model A – with a top speed of maybe 45 MPH  . . . on the straight stretches. Naturally, he’s headed to some gathering that’s at least 40 miles away.

And you’ll be stuck behind him the whole way there.

* The No Flash ‘Em CloverClover warn

It’s Us against Them when it comes to traffic enforcement. Common courtesy is to use your headlights/high beams to flash oncoming cars – to let them know there’s a cop running radar up ahead. Or one of those Fourth Amendment-Free Zones where your forced to stop and prove you haven’t done something illegal. It’s the human version of what prey animals routinely do for one another when a predator threatens. Sound the alarm! Make it more difficult for the predator to prey.

But, of course, Clovers are themselves predators – if only by proxy. They want you to get preyed upon. They support “safety” checks – and harassing motorists over trumped-up violations of “the law.” Which they revere as Holy Writ – whatever it happens to say. For Clover, submission to authority (any authority) is beatific – an almost religious mandate. Which explains why he (and she) has a meltdown when anyone flouts authority.

* The Misplaced Courtesy Clover Clover goat

This Clover wants to be helpful, wants to be nice. But only to those he deems worthy of being helped – and regardless of traffic etiquette. As well as traffic law. The classic case in point is the Clover who holds up all the cars stuck behind him – in order to make room for a car trying to enter from a sidestreet. Clover will literally come to a complete stop – or refuse to get going – in order to make way for the car he wants to let in. Doesn’t matter that the cars behind him have the right of way; they can wait! Meanwhile, the driver Clover’s trying to help is reluctant to make his move – because he knows both the law and traffic etiquette are not on his side. If there’s an accident, it’ll be his fault.

Courtesy of Clover.

See here, here and here for previous installements.

Throw it in the Woods?

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eric

Author of "Automotive Atrocities" and "Road Hogs" (MBI). Currently living amongst the Edentulites in rural SW Virginia. 

  241 comments for “Clover Taxonomy V

  1. Mike
    August 5, 2013 at 11:18 am

    Maybe off topic a bit, but ever notice when Clovers get into a left hand turning lane, in preparation to make a left, they always seem to swing their car halfway to the right, into your lane, before making their left turn. Aggravating and dangerous as hell, as you have to swerve right quickly to avoid them. endangering those in the far right lane. They act like they are driving an 18 wheeler. It seems 50% of people do this crap. Why, oh why?

    • Jean
      August 5, 2013 at 2:49 pm

      Stupidity. Only cure is death.

  2. August 5, 2013 at 3:28 am

    Hey, I thought “Slows down to pass” would be included in this one.

  3. john
    August 4, 2013 at 3:52 pm

    A Harley’s basically the adult equivalent of a baby-rattle, just a noisy attention-getting device which can be outperformed by the average family sedan. If you’re going to ride get a real motorcycle, such as a Hayabusa or ZX-14.

  4. August 4, 2013 at 11:49 am

    What does one call the guy who’s the diametric opposite of the “Misplaced Courtesy Clover”?

    Y’know; the inflamed sphincter who sees that the light half-a-block ahead has gone amber, takes note of a guy coming from a driveway on the right who’s trying to turn left, and speeds up to screw that driver out of the opportunity to make that left turn.

    Thereafter to slam on his brakes at the stop light and sit there, smug at having done his little bit to increase the sum total of human misery in the universe.

  5. Dave P.
    August 4, 2013 at 6:11 am

    Number 6 has a sub-set of those who stop on Roundabouts to let people in.

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 5, 2013 at 12:39 am

      Right with you there Dave. The “I can’t figure out roundabouts” clover. They wait until there’s nobody near the intersection, then slowly creep out and excruciatingly make their turn. They can hold you up for ages.

      One I saw up in Sydney back in ’91, I was behind a slow ancient guy and his missus as they turned out of their street some 500m from a small 3-way roundabout. When they got to it they took a while to figure this thing out as if it had been plonked there overnight, took a right turn in front of a cop waiting to turn, in the wrong-est way you could possibly use a roundabout. Yep – in reverse of travel direction.

      All 4 cops looked at each other, likely said WTF and got after them. I wonder how the conversation went..

  6. David Sullivan
    August 4, 2013 at 3:55 am

    How about the “get in the passing lane, go slow, and turn on the hazard lights when it’s raining clover?” This is relatively new, but I’ve seen folks who are scared to drive during a rain storm get in the left lane, put their hazards on and then drive about 15 mph lower than the posted speed limit. I’ve seen it mostly in North Carolina, where they don’t understand that the left lane is for passing. If one is scared to drive, that person should get off the road.

    • August 4, 2013 at 9:59 am

      Good one, David!

      I’ve met him (and her) too.

      Why – why – can’t they just pull off the road?

      I’ve had to pass these dweezils – across the double yellow – in near blinding rain.

      It’s either that – or crawl along for the next 15-30 minutes at Clover’s pace.

  7. Mark Whitney
    August 4, 2013 at 2:41 am

    In purchasing a used vehicle, I have been informed that leaving the key on can burn out essential ignition components. Is this true, and how so?

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 4, 2013 at 6:20 am

      Mark Whitney, in my forty plus years of living I’ve not found this to be the case.
      If no one else chimes in, I’d take what I said as fact.

      • BrentP
        August 5, 2013 at 3:09 am

        In ancient times, no newer than 1974, the coil could suffer damage if the engine was not running and the key was turned to ‘On’. The reason being is the coil wouldn’t get to discharge. Remember this was a mechanical system and if the distributor didn’t turn…. Anything more modern I believe is entirely safe because electronics are in charge. Anything distributor-less is entirely safe.

        If there was no issue leaving the engine ‘on’ then there would be no need for ‘acc’. Today however ‘acc’ may be vestigial. Not sure.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 5, 2013 at 4:09 am

          Good observation, BrentP. I totally forgot about those older models.

          It”s funny, when Mark Whitney said, “used vehicle” I wasn’t thinking ‘antique’. My mistake. How could I have forgotten? This getting old stuff, sucks.

          We had a ’72~’73 boat that was the same way, the key would invariably get left in the ‘ON’ position, and the coil needed replaced more often than anyone liked.

          At the same time, I had a ’66 car that I had in the ‘ON’ position all the time, and never had a problem. YMMV? Keyword is, ‘could’?

          Anyway, good catch, BrentP.

          • BrentP
            August 5, 2013 at 5:23 am

            There are many things which get passed down but stopped be applicable ages ago. I figured this was one of them.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            August 5, 2013 at 6:09 am

            I’m embarrassed I forgot it.

            On the bright side, I still remember why ‘acc’ is not vestigial, rather, it’s timeless.
            Teenagers and younger people like it when the dashboard lights don’t illuminate what they’re doing in the front or backseat when the radio is on.

    • August 4, 2013 at 10:01 am

      Hi Mark,

      I’ve never heard such a thing – and doubt it’s ikely, or even possible. Reason it out: Your car’s electronic systems are designed to run – i.e., to be powered. Unless there’s a voltage surge, merely having power on would only subject them to what they’ve been designed for.. e.g., lights on.

      The battery will run down, eventually, if the key is left in the “on” or “accessory” position. But that’s all that’ll happen.

      • Mark Whitney
        August 4, 2013 at 1:07 pm

        Thanks Eric. That was my reasoning as well. Sorry about the off-topic comment, but it sounded like BS to me.

      • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
        August 5, 2013 at 12:22 am

        My late mother ALWAYS left the ignition on. After backing the car (not much of a car back in the 70’s, Ford Cortina MK1 of all things) into the woodshed/garage, she’d promptly stall the thing and forget the ignition switch, since back then you could take the key out in almost any position. How she never saw the bright red oil light I’ll never know.

        The ignition never suffered, but every morning we’d be roll starting the thing down the driveway, where often it stayed until the old man got home because it wouldn’t start. In later years with many other cars, the same old routine remained until she got an automatic ;)

        • joeallen
          August 5, 2013 at 9:21 am

          Hi Revo, I saw your above post on the lights ticket. Here’s my story I sent to aussiespeedingfines.com:

          In October 2012 I was issued a fine with a pic of my car parked on a nature strip in Altona. I was not the driver. My son was. Came wtih a pic showing several other cars in the pic parked on the road. I wrote back to council nominating my son as the driver. They withdrew it from my name and transferred it to son’s name. He accepted. I then sent the council a letter using the first stage of the 3 step process. He didn’t pay on time so council sent him a reminder notice in his first and last names. They added another 22.60 in costs. 2 weeks later they sent son a notice in his first and last names, stating that he had nominated another driver and that nomination had been accepted. I asked him if he nominated anyone else. He said NO.

          He then received another penalty reminder notice. This time the notice had his middle initial as part of his name. It took me some time to pick up this one letter discrepancy. I then wrote back to council that since I cannot provide false information, then that also legally applies to the council. I (in the form of my son’s name) also stated that I did NOT provide them with another name, and based on this, I want the council to drop this fine. 6 days later, my son receive a letter stating that the fine would be converted to a warning.

          I wrote the letters and asked my son to sign them, explaining what I was doing at each step (he’s 19). The council nominated another driver when they found they were only using his given and last names. But his license has his middle initial, and when council realized this, they did a dirty on him. Took me several reads of the previous correspondence to pick this omission on their part. They then tried to lie when they realized the error. All the council notices come with the line: “It is an offence under the Road Safety Act 1986 to knowingly provide false or misleading information in the statement, which may incur a penalty exceeding $6000.”

          “The statement” is not defined. Also my son could have chased the appeals review officer for a $6000 penalty. I was wondering if anyone has ever done this.

          Also I had a 64 Studebaker commander that in the winter, coming from college classes, I would start the car, let it warm up by taking the key from the ignition while it was running, and go inside the warm lobby and wait till my car was warmed up inside. That old car got me 39 mpg on the road.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 5, 2013 at 10:27 am

            Thanks for that Joeallen. I got involved with researching our traffic fine system some 5 years ago, and eventually came across ASF some 2 years ago. I was very happy that someone else had discovered exactly what I had found – that the system is operating completely outside the law.

            I did actually read your above testimonial in the most recent ASF email update. Awesome stuff. Pursuing the Appeals Review Orificer would have sent them packing – as is your right – considering everyone is equal under the law.

            The parking pigs in Dandenong (Melb) eventually got to know me quite well, mainly by my car. I never had to take any to court though, just a few quiet words to some of them relaying the facts regarding the 1988 Referendum and Council powers (or the sheer lack of them), including the National Standards Commission and the non-traceability of their meters kept them away from me. The ones that didn’t care for a short conversation I had to write threatening letters to.

            One of them would even wave when he saw me, so I’d politely wave back. I’d never park anywhere with impunity though, just to play fair ;)

          • Klavdy
            August 6, 2013 at 12:14 pm

            Here’s a link to a court ruling, it’s got lots, magna Carta, National Measurements, Imperial Acts Application etc.

            http://www.asmd.org.au/uploads/3/2/2/5/3225995/macdonald_case_melbourne_march_2013.pdf

          • Klavdy
            August 6, 2013 at 12:16 pm

            oops, almost forgot to credit the source,:

            http://www.asmd.org.au/

  8. Waiting to go forward
    August 3, 2013 at 11:31 pm

    Okay I have to add one that I noticed in the last 10 years that really gets to me. Its the South of The Border Clover who doesn’t know how to make an American left hand turn at an intersection. These jerks sit at the line when making a left turn. When the light turns green they do not creep up for their left so you cannot get around to the right side of them and must wait for them to decide the street is completely clear before they make their left turn. They often miss the light if the cross traffic is heavy because they are too scared to make their left because they never crept up. They also almost never put the left blinker on because then you would be able to anticipate their lame left technique and leave room to go around them. How come they don’t catch on that in the U.S. it is okay to creep into the intersection to wait before making a left?

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 4, 2013 at 12:38 am

      It should be as it is here in Oz, Waiting. Entering the intersection on green is perfectly legal.

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 4, 2013 at 12:40 am

      The South of The Border Clover is the same as the North of The Border Clover. A Clover is a Clover all the world over.
      I experience that quite often here, Waiting to go forward.
      In fact, it happened to me twice today.
      Just because a person and their families have lived in the unitedstate for generations does not mean they know how to drive.
      It confounds me to no end when I encounter such drivers, no matter where they’re from, or even if they’ve always been here.

      I saw a bumper sticker today that said, ‘Is Your Turn Signal Broken?!”

  9. Eightsouthman
    August 3, 2013 at 9:53 pm

    joey, I never had any problem with non anti-lock brakes but certainly have had with anti-lock brakes. If you had any driving competency you wouldn’t think they were so great.

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 4, 2013 at 12:44 am

      ABS is useless for stopping fast on dirt, where locked wheels pile up a wedge of dirt under them stopping you faster, but ABS on dirt acts like weak braking, carrying you a lot further.

      But that’s in a straight line. Locking wheels on dirt in a corner is only good for rally-style handbrake turns, where ABS for the average Clover that can’t handle non-ABS brakes is often (and unfortunately) a lifesaver.

      • BrentP
        August 5, 2013 at 2:56 am

        My ’97 has what I call infinite loop ABS… I am going 5mph… I can skid to a stop in the snow, but ABS keeps cycling and the car just doesn’t stop.

        Supposedly people wised up in later years and decided the ABS should be programmed to simply not engage at such slow speeds. Duh.

  10. joey bolz
    August 3, 2013 at 9:21 pm

    I am getting a little weary of these Clover installments. Most people drive with their head up their ass and the ones that don’t sometimes do. You and I included. Come to Kansas City and ride your bike. There are better words for them than Clover.
    Also, I didn’t appreciate you pissing on my anti-lock brakes awhile back.

    • August 3, 2013 at 9:41 pm

      Joey,

      I didn’t piss on ABS. I pissed on the idea of force-feeding it to people via a mandate.

      • joey bolz
        August 4, 2013 at 5:13 am

        Yes, I reckon you did not. It just bummed me out about the stupid mandates coming down the pike and allusions to driver incompetence. Never had them engage on me yet although I have tested them. Sheesh I get tired of these macho dick wipes that think their Steve McQueen

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 4, 2013 at 5:53 am

          Ha. “these macho dick wipes that think their Steve McQueen”

          Heh, I resemble that remark.

          Terence Steven “Steve” McQueen, … He was nicknamed “The King of Cool.”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McQueen

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            August 4, 2013 at 5:55 am

            Also, it’s not like I give a shit, but I couldn’t help noticing, it should have been: “these macho dick wipes that think THEY”RE Steve McQueen”

        • August 4, 2013 at 9:49 am

          It’s not about “thinking they’re Steve McQueen.” It’s about the freedom to choose.

          And yes, there is a relationship between technologies such as ABS and driver competence. The less skill required of a driver, the less skillful the driver. Especially with regard to young/new drivers – who never acquire a given skill (such as threshold braking, or learning to steer out of a skid). In this sense, ABS is a form of idiot proofing. It aids the person who simply slams on the brakes and screams when facing an emergency situation.

          It’s worth noting the relationship between the obviously declining skill/ability of the typical driver – and the increasing capacity of cars to virtually drive themselves, with little – and soon perhaps no – input from the driver.

          That may be desirable, to some – who view cars as mere appliances. As a way to get from A to B and nothing more. Such people are no doubt the majority.

          But if so, they ought to be content with things like ABS simply being available rather than mandatory.

          After all, if most people want it – and are willing to freely pay for it – then the manufacturers will surely offer it….

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            August 4, 2013 at 10:04 am

            eric wrote, “the person who simply slams on the brakes and screams when facing an emergency situation.”

            Ha!

          • Nick
            August 5, 2013 at 1:29 am

            “And yes, there is a relationship between technologies such as ABS and driver competence.”

            I can name an even more interesting relationship….

            Look at the can am style reverse trike.

            A large percentage of these people riding them didn’t have the skill to ride a motorcycle and thought it was a good idea to get a reverse trike as an substitute….

            • August 5, 2013 at 10:02 am

              I’m inclined to agree Nick.

              I say inclined, because I don’t want to commit to hating on the Can Am before I know more about it (and the people who ride them). But from where I sit, they do strike me as machines for people who want the motorcycle experience but in a car-esque platform. No need to balance; no need to master The Art of the Lean. They seem to me to be up-sized four-wheelers (on three wheels).

              Anyone out there who’s got some experience riding one of these units want to weigh in?

          • BrentP
            August 5, 2013 at 3:12 am

            The typical american driver does not like driving.
            He’s not involved in the task.
            He wants to be entertained by something else.
            I think he should stay home or take the bus or the train so the rest of us can enjoy the drive. But instead he has spent the last 100 years trying to ruin it for those who like it.

            • August 5, 2013 at 9:56 am

              That’s it, in a nutshell.

              And not just w/regard to cars, either.

          • Jean
            August 5, 2013 at 2:44 pm

            re: Can-Am – that’s the woman’s “Dream Bike”.

            I yank her chain MERCILESSLY about it, she still don’t get it…

            :-P

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 4, 2013 at 5:46 am

      joey bolz wrote, “Also, I didn’t appreciate you pissing on my anti-lock brakes awhile back.”

      Ha. Please, in all seriousness., pardon me, but I found that funny.

      I didn’t read the thread, however; I’m thinking you shouldn’t take it to heart so much, maybe?

      joey bolz wrote, “Come to Kansas City and ride your bike. There are better words for them than Clover.”

      You should know, gooberment has much to do with creating that environment.
      It’s also why I ride on the sidewalks.

      I don’t know how the Amish do it.
      They are very brave. Imho.

  11. The The
    August 3, 2013 at 6:54 pm

    Re the Family Stick Figure Clover: I am amazed to find these idiots in the third world country I live in -where any bit of information regarding the composition of your family is an invitation to scammers purporting to have kidnapped someone in your family, or worse: actual kidnappers.

    But Eric, I think you are forgetting an essential component of cloverism, namely the Bicycle Clover. There is much to be said in that area -I believe it would require an article all by itself.

  12. pops
    August 3, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Let’s not leave out the texting Clover. When the light turns green, he’s still looking at his lap until you honk your horn, then goes charging off as if to make up lost time. After three traffic lights in a row behind this clown, we came to an intersection that had traffic enforcement cameras. Light was still red and he was still looking at his lap and I tapped the horn just for giggles. He immediately charged on out through the intersection (there was no cross traffic…I checked first) and the flashes of the cameras gave me a warm, smiley feeling.

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 4, 2013 at 12:49 am

      Heh. NICE! That was deserved.

    • Mithrandir
      August 4, 2013 at 4:52 am

      Too funny. It is a “shame” that this fool did not check the traffic light. A fool and his money are soon parted.

  13. Fred
    August 3, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    “Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?”

    -G. Carlin

    • August 3, 2013 at 12:41 pm

      It’s the ones who refuse to yield that rise my back hairs….

      I drive fast, but if someone else wants to drive faster, I let ‘em by.

      The hallmark of a Clover is that he won’t.

      • Fred
        August 3, 2013 at 1:23 pm

        Hi Eric, I like your articles and always follow you from lew’s site.

        Classic clover is the passive-agressive idiot squatting in the left lane with 15 cars behind. I think that the “clover” definition is in danger of being expanded too far to retain its significance, particularly in the comments. Some guy who had to wait 20 years to afford a Harley is a clover?

        It’s almost like a “clover” is everyone but me, thus the Carlin quote.

      • Phillip the Bruce
        August 5, 2013 at 7:57 pm

        This is one of my pet Clover peeves – they see the sign that says “Slower traffic keep right” and read “Slower than me.” It couldn’t apply to them, because no one should be driving faster that he is.
        Another one is the Clover response to the “Slow down or move over for emergency vehicles on the shoulder.” They seem to think “If one or the other is good, doing both is even better!” And I’m not going to get into why emergency vehicles are entitled to more respect or caution than ordinary citizens here.

        • Jean
          August 5, 2013 at 11:04 pm

          There IS a reason to give emergency vehicles extra leeway, but at the same time, it’s a courtesy, not a law.
          The concept is that emergency vehicles transport people who may be dying to a hospital, hopefully saving their lives; and fire trucks are of course en route to a fire. So, give a little extra room to make it an easier trip.

          Why is that so odd? Or is there something more to your thoughts that I’m not registering?

  14. CamelJoe
    August 3, 2013 at 8:00 am

    What about the Clover Cop? Or is it Cop Clover?

    Yesterday, my son and his friends were riding their bicycles on a dirt road leading to the local park. My son is 13 years old and his friends are about the same age.

    According to my son, a car comes carelessly barreling around a blind curve, kicking up dust, and almost hits them. One of the kids yells, “F*** you!” before he realizes it’s a cop.

    The cop promptly turns around and drives by them fast, as if this was a retaliatory action. He comes close to them but not as close as the first time. About a minute later, the kids hear a siren that lasts for about 30 seconds.

    At around the age of 13, the kids figure out why the cop used the siren.

    • August 3, 2013 at 10:49 am

      Cops are worse than Clovers. They are Clover’s enforcers. Because Clover, himself, is a coward who would never dare to bully other people who might fight back. He therefore has a hireling – the cop – do his his dirty work on his behalf.

  15. Klavdy
    August 3, 2013 at 7:03 am

    Hmmm, maybe it’s because of the HTML tags?

    let’s see what happens if I put a space in the tags,,,

    What on earth is going on with these replies?
    Is it because there are WYSWIG type tags in it?

    ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N :

    Mate, are you aware that I am also live in Australia?
    Some of your posts claim that you have had great court victories using “Freeman On The Land” type methods.
    Would you care to post a link to actual, specific cases as recorded and reported?
    Maybe on [url =htt p ://ww w.austlii.edu.au/databases.ht ml]AusLii?[ / url ]
    Thanks.
    Oh, and could you ask your Nephew to please turn off those lights, be they driving or fog, they distract many other road users and [url = htt p:/ /w ww.vicroads.vic.gov.au/ Home/SafetyAndRules/SaferVehicles/VehicleDesignStandardsAndAccessories/FogAndDrivingLights.h tm ]both can get him a ticket.[ /ur l]

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 3, 2013 at 10:38 am

      Klavdy, I know you’re Aussie. BTW you don’t have to put spaces in your url’s as in YouTube, which filter for spam.

      We know how corrupt our system is and often precedents go missing, such as Harris v Penn Vic County Court 2002 which was a landmark case proving all speed measuring devices here are unlawful. Just about anything proven against the system has a good chance of not being set as a recorded precedent. Often I’ve made it clear to the judge that I would like a recording of the proceedings. They magically go missing too.

      Fines can only be issued by a judge as per S. 8(12) of the Imperial Acts Application Act which states “That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures before conviction, are illegal and void”.

      Issue by a cop, parking orificer or anyone not a judge is unlawful and a federal offence – especially from a court that doesn’t conform to a Chapter III Court of Competent Jurisdiction, unless agreed upon by the defendant, as in Forge v ASIC High Court of Australia 2006, where the full bench ruled that all courts must return to the way they were at Federation, with either 2 judges at the bench or a jury of your peers, in order to remove bias.

      When it comes to Statutes, there is no valid Law or Act that binds a flesh and blood human being to a Statute without that human’s consent to be so bound. S. 76 of our Constitution allows Parliament to make laws, however there’s nothing in our Constitution even hinting that those Statutes must be obeyed. Laws cannot be inferred or implied, they must be written. Just because it’s called a law doesn’t bring it into law.

      Every Law or Act Parliament makes, such as The Road Safety Act, for example, must have the preamble

      “Be it therefore enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:” etc.

      ..as the Constitution does, but Statutes don’t. They MUST have Royal assent since we voted in the 1999 Referendum to continue as a Monarchy and the Queen has the final say what law gets passed. Without that assent, they are not actual Law.

      Any Statute that attempts to override a Law of the Constitution falls foul of the ruling of Justice Latham in the Uniform Tax Case in the High Court of Australia – HCA 1942 (65 CLR 373 at 408) in this regard:

      “Common expressions such as: ‘The Courts have declared a statute invalid’, ” says Chief Justice Latham, “sometimes lead to misunderstanding. A pretend law made in excess of power is not and never has been a law at all. Anybody in the country is entitled to disregard it. Naturally, he will feel safer if he has a decision of a court in his favour, but such a decision is not an element that produces invalidity in any law. The law is not valid until a court pronounces against it – and thereafter invalid. If it is beyond power it is void ab initio”

      Therefore, my nephews’ non-dazzling driving lights, dimmer than his headlights are not unlawful nor cause anyone harm or mischief and, cannot be lawfully fined unless by magistrate and only IF the defendant agrees to the jurisdiction of the court as per Forge v ASIC HCA 2006 RE Chapter III Constitution.

      I hope the strings of LED’s under headlights of most cars these days, a trend started by Audi, don’t bother you too much either. If someone’s fog/driving lights annoy YOU, then YOU apply for justice, not apply a blanket law against many that don’t cause mischief.

      • Klavdy
        August 3, 2013 at 11:55 am

        Good luck with getting your methods accepted by most Courts,I mean that sincerely.
        The Sovereign Citizen, Freeman On The Land type approaches are always interesting so please keep us updated on how you go.

        Leds on the Audi’s, Holdens etc aren’t an issue,they don’t tend to dazzle others,apparently that’s one of the main reasons for their implementation.
        As to the driving lights above,(your nephews) they do annoy,dazzle and distract many other drivers,they do cause mischief to many so apart from his getting the ticket overturned and now being able to stick it to the man, is there any reason why he’s got them on in the daytime?
        Is there a reason he must?

        • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
          August 3, 2013 at 12:36 pm

          He didn’t realise they were on as there’s no idiot light for them on the dash. But you haven’t seen his driving lights, so have no cause to accuse them of being in any way unlawful, dazzling or a concern to yourself or others, regardless the Statute written.

          Such things concerning “perceivable” harm to others even though there’s no evidence any harm WILL arise must be debated on each specific instance. A perception is subjective and not “actual”. No victim, no crime.

          Driving lights are FAR LESS dazzling during the day and, that being the case, how could one even lawfully use them at night? If such laws can be so often and easily broken at will – even by accident – there is obviously something wrong with that law.

          Same goes for fog lights. If it gets difficult enough to see or be seen in heavy rain, should there be a blanket law that lets cops fine (unlawfully as above S. 8(12)) everyone that uses them in conditions other than legally defined “fog”?

          In any case, when it comes to people being victimised by blanket laws that don’t particularly protect anyone from harm, such as a minor crack in a taillight, a blown rego plate globe, dirty rego plate, stone chip in the windscreen etc., are utter bullshit designed for revenue-raising.

          Note how there’s no “law” against underinflated tyres – the REAL enemy of safe motoring. I see them all the time, but no cop will ever pull someone over and check their tyre pressures. It’s just not worth their effort. Notably, factory pressures printed inside the door are too low in most cases as most advanced driving courses will attest.

          The only time a cop will pull (although I’ve never seen it) someone over for that is on a single tyre going flat to warn the motorist, but no unroadworthy sticker will be awarded.

          • Klavdy
            August 3, 2013 at 12:59 pm

            Geez mate, take a breath.
            How did you get sidetracked onto all that other unrelated stuff?
            Some fog lights/driving lights do dazzle other drivers.
            Perhaps you could teach him that if it’s not foggy, turn them off, it’s basic good manners and another sign of a competent driver.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 4, 2013 at 1:06 am

            Sorry Klavdy, sometimes I get carried away a bit in order to be accurate ;)

            Like I said before though, they were on accidentally and going by the photos we took can’t possibly dazzle anyone.

            Myself I don’t see the point of having lights on unnecessarily, it just wears out the bulbs and charging system, not to mention fuel economy. My older sister on the other hand.. Cripes. She goes through low-beam globes like there’s no tomorrow. Her lights are always on.

            If only people realised that scanning for movement rather than something bright is the hallmark of visible traffic.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 3, 2013 at 1:49 pm

          The first DRL’s I ever saw were on new GM vehicles. The first couple years the damned things would blind you in west Tx. sun and that’s way too bright. There was a big hubub in this state as well as others about them and they replaced them a couple year models later with dimmer bulbs. Now they’re in the same lens as the dims on most cars but I still hate them. People say Why do you not want them? They don’t hurt anything. Really? They hurt my eyes, they hurt the alternator and they make replacing headlamp assemblies more costly as well as being an added cost to replace the bulbs that burn continuously. I detest the feature of not being able to turn them off, unfortunately started on bikes circa 1980. My 80 model Zuk had them for the first time implemented by federal code. I asked the dealer if I could turn them off and the switch button itself was the only difference with a tab that wouldn’t let it go back into the off position. Just remove the button, grind off the tab and things are like the year before with an off position. I’m not hot on using lights in the dark if they’re not necessary. Our driveway was 1.5 M long and I had to pass one house on the way in so I did it without lights in the dark. Nobody to note my comings and goings, perfect.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 4, 2013 at 12:57 am

            Eight, In Oz the “Always On” mandate for bikes passed in ’92. Luckily I still have a ’90 model so I have a choice :)

            There’s a big problem with that mandate. Cagers are getting used to “seeing” a bike because of the headlight. Often an older model runs foul of someone not seeing a “headlight”, meaning the road’s clear and cuts off the bike.

            Then again, lots of post ’92 bikes are cut off because the idiot cager didn’t care to look.

            Agree with you on the wear and tear associated with always on. Because the charging system’s working harder fuel economy also suffers.

            • August 4, 2013 at 10:26 am

              I can run both the ’76 Kz900 and the ’75 S1 without lights on – and do so in order to preserve (in the case of the S1) the original factory headlight (rare and expensive to find) and (in the case of both) the also-expensive alternators…. but, I live in a very rural area and don’t ride either in “the city” – where one’s risk of being Clovered foes up considerably…

  16. BrentP
    August 3, 2013 at 2:00 am

    folks have been mentioning stickers. What about the anti-clover stickers?
    The sample size is really small but there are some signs that seem to work in the other direction and they are usually those that mock the clover stickers. This came to me today as I was behind a PT cruiser with a Strong Bad sticker instead of a stick family and a zombie support ribbon instead of the usual kinds. (Strong Bad is a character on homestarrunner.com) Another sticker someone I know bought was a parody of the Calvin pissing sticker. It was Calvin with a big afro pissing on ‘the man’. Then of course the ‘Ron Paul’ stickers tend to break the mold of those who have political stickers.

    It’s too rare to encounter such folks to really get a trend but if there are two cars, one with conventional ‘baby on board’ and other such cloverian nonsense and a car with stuff mocking it, I’ll pull behind the later. However I’ll still most likely pick the stickerless car.

  17. Klavdy
    August 3, 2013 at 12:03 am

    What’s going on with the way comments appear?
    Actually, the way they don’t always appear?
    I’ve replied to a few posts and nothing comes up on the page yet the page script says it’s been posted?

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 3, 2013 at 1:41 am

      Klavdy, I think I had that happen to me once. It was when someone else was posting to the same ‘Reply’ button that I was, at the same time.

      If your comment was lengthy, and was work, always copy it before hitting the ‘Post Comment’ button. That’s what I try to do, anyway.

      • Klavdy
        August 3, 2013 at 2:49 am

        I do that, copy/pasta,and try logging out then back in again.
        It sometimes works.
        Hmm, let’s see if this comes up.

        • Klavdy
          August 3, 2013 at 2:49 am

          Well lookee there, it worked that time.
          Hmmm.

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 3, 2013 at 2:04 am

      Do you know, do you have to login to ask a question on the ‘ask a question page’? Or is the link not working?

      I was looking at the ad for LeatherUp.com and wondered what you all thought was the best motorcycle jacket. Motorcycle jackets seem like great SHTF jackets. I’m thinking it would be a good idea to have one even if a person didn’t own a motorcycle.

      … Then I got to wondering if there is a ‘best bicycling jacket’?
      … Then I got to wondering, how come the Clovers of the world don’t wear helmets when they drive cars?

      I saw a real retard the other day out walking with his mom. The retard was wearing a version of a baseball helmet combined with a hardhat. Why don’t the Clovers of the world do that too when they go for walks, especially in the city. Don’t they fear flower pots falling from balconies?

      • Klavdy
        August 3, 2013 at 6:53 am

        Vanson , baby, Vanson.
        I’ve had lots of bike gear,from lots of different makers.
        You cannot beat Vanson.
        American made in Fall River,M.A.
        I’m such a tragic for it that I flew over to Boston,rented a car then drove down to Fall River specifically to get a couple of custom pieces, expensive but well worth it.
        It’s truly heirloom quality stuff, it will outlast you, that’s for sure.
        I also have some Australian made “Tiger Angel” gear but think that Vanson is better.

      • Boothe
        August 4, 2013 at 3:45 am

        Downshiftfast5to1 – There’s no doubt that Klavdy is right about Vanson gear. But the price is a factor for me and a $700 jacket had better levitate my butt out of an accident, not just reduce my road rash. For the money (and keep in mind I only buy new gear on closeout) Teknic makes decent textile apparel. My second choices are Icon and Fly. I have a waterproof Tecknic jacket with removable liner (that rolls up into its own fanny pack) and CE armor I picked for $79.95 about a year after it was out of style. Keep in mind that the hard foam “armor” in the elbows, shoulders and back of many motorcycle jackets does restrict your movement somewhat and may be uncomfortable for everyday wear (it just depends on the jacket).

        If you’re thinking SHTF preps, you may be better off with something like a Carhart waterproof jacket a size larger than normal that you can layer with a fleece hoody. You can get a snap-off hood for the Carhart to give you great rain protection and it looks “blue collar.” Nondescript and low profile are desirable traits if you have to ride shank’s mare* out of a bad situation. Having a motorcycle jacket on and carrying a black backpack might not be as bad as wearing an M65 field, camo pants and ALICE gear past some nosy DHS goons, but I’d prefer a blue collar jacket, good work boots (i.e. Redwing, yes I will pay $200 for a pair of boots) and a gym style duffel bag. No one will suspect that you have your hand on that shorty AR in that gym bag along with 3 days worth of “git me home” stuff. You’ll be warm and dry as well as under the radar because you look like Joe Tradesman, not GI Joe or Joe Rocket.

        *riding shank’s mare = hoofing it

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 4, 2013 at 4:33 am

          Thank you for the feedback, you two.

          Years ago a hot chick (Gina mm with a perfect,.. anyway, I digress) who owned a motorcycle shop sold me on a jacket after she showed me pictures of what her jacket looked like after she got tossed from the back of a bike. It protected her. I sold the jacket with the motorcycle and regretted getting rid of both since.

          Ya, $499 (The bottom end?) for a Vanson jacket did seem a little steep. But… they might be worth every sinkin’ Penny.
          Ever since I read a description of Ferfal coming to visit Texas during the famous Texas heat while wearing full heavy jacket I’ve thought I’d be well served by getting the same outfit. Not just to repel roadrash, but to reduce the effects of a knife, or possibly even a bullet.

          I have a Carhart, but it’s not waterproof. I haven’t seen one of those. They are durable, but they don’t seem to be as knife resistant as I’d like. And the one I have is kind of heavy, especially if it was soaked.

          Anyway, you guys gave me something to research.

          *riding shank’s – Ha! New term to me. Something to laugh about the next time I’m hoofing it. …Which I hope is never.

          Also, no doubt about those Redwings. I have some old ones that seem like they will last forever. High quality stuff. I’ll Never buy a cheap pair of boots after experiencing Redwings. The only thing I’d add is, Ecco leather inserts, they rock, in more ways than one.

          • August 4, 2013 at 9:57 am

            Ha!

            One of the reasons I went on a diet (and I can admit this now) is that at 220, I could no longer squeeze myself into my leathers. I didn’t like the idea of spending another $1,500 on a “fat” set. So, I dropped 20-something pounds instead!

          • Boothe
            August 4, 2013 at 3:26 pm

            I’m with you Eric. You’re taller than me, so at merely 200 lbs., my jackets and jeans were getting too tight. Then I was over at the Z1000 forum one day and some wise ass posted that the cheapest and easiest way to improve the performance of your bike was to cut 20 lbs…off the rider. Yeah, it stung. But I got it. Now my Icon TiMax jacket fits like it’s supposed to, I’m wearing in jeans that were the size I wore in high school with breathing room and I’m in my mid fifties. Thank you Mark Sisson and the Primal Lifestyle (and Lew Rockwell for putting me on to it) for a couple of recent comments from the fairer sex of “That jacket looks good on you” instead of “When are you due?”

          • BrentP
            August 5, 2013 at 3:15 am

            A story I got third hand (from a friend who knew the guy) was that this guy was autocrossing his car and needed a way to lighten it 40lbs… so he went on a diet.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 4, 2013 at 5:05 am

          Damn, I saw this video, the loop, of people walking into a sinkhole captured exactly what’s going on now, imho:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_O5VQh5_lE&feature=player_embedded

          … Only the video didn’t show us in the crowd saying, “Wait! Stop! Don’t jump into that bottomless pit.”

          The thing that stuck out for me was how their arms were straight at their sides as they rushed headlong into destruction. … What does that mean? Is that a representation of ridged unwavering obedience and conformity? A.k.a. Clover at his or her finest?

    • August 3, 2013 at 11:32 am

      Hi Klavdy,

      Are you clicking on “reply” and writing your response/post in the box that pops up?

      • Klavdy
        August 3, 2013 at 1:02 pm

        Hey Eric,
        yes mate, I tried lots of things before asking, logging in, logging out, going via the dashboard etc.
        That’s where I found the messages had been shunted to the spam bin.
        I’m pretty sure it’s the HTML tags, for some reason the spam filter doesn’t like me using them.

        • August 3, 2013 at 5:20 pm

          Hi Klavdy,

          Weird!

          Have you registered with the site? If you have, once approved, your posts will automatically appear without prior moderation… I’ll ask Dom to have a look…

          • Klavdy
            August 3, 2013 at 11:48 pm

            Hi, yep, registered and all, here’s a screen shot, see I’m up at the top right?

            [img]http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0fQN5fWLcs4/Uf2V5tJgqoI/AAAAAAAANYc/qOSjdAKdG2k/w930-h425-no/Eric+P+Screen+Shot.jpg[/img]

            • August 4, 2013 at 10:27 am

              Alrighty – I’m checking into it…

          • Klavdy
            August 4, 2013 at 12:06 am

            Hmmm, that time the reply appeared but the HTML tags didn’t work?

            I used “[img] [/img]”

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 5, 2013 at 6:14 am

          Klavdy, maybe it doesn’t apply? But I recall on other websites having to paste to Wordpad before I pasted onto a comment box because some other commands/formatting would get pasted without my knowing it, causing the comment to not appear. … Just a thought.

  18. Boothe
    August 2, 2013 at 5:47 pm

    Let’s not forget the execrable “Wagon Driver Clover.” This Clover must cut over at least a wheel width into the left lane to make a right turn in a standard vehicle. This Clover apparently thinks a Tahoe or even a Camry has a twenty mule team or a road tractor out in front that may run off the culvert into the ditch if they don’t swing out first. The Wagon Driver Clover is a kissing cousin to the “Lane Clipping Clover” that has to cut across the stop bar and double yellow of the opposing lane when making a left turn at a traffic light, seeing just how close he can get to your front fender as s/he passes by. I suspect that neither of these subspecies of Clover were capable of coloring inside the lines as children. They are so prevalent here, that at a couple of lights in town we have their alter ego, the “Hang-back-far-enough-in-the-turn-lane-to-not-get-hit Clover” that doesn’t trip the light. You will end up sitting behind them for 2 or 3 light cycles and finally have to go around them. They seem to be paralyzed with the fear of violating traffic controls and too ignorant to understand that by staying a car length from the stop bar, the light will never change.

    • BrentP
      August 2, 2013 at 6:14 pm

      That reminds me of the idiot I encountered last night. A common variety I encounter while bicycling.

      Residential road, 25mph speed limit. I generally take this at about 22mph. sometimes up to 26mph. Depends if I had the green at the base of the big hill or not. Last night I caught a red signal so I was doing somewhere in the 20ish range. Drivers like to do 30.

      The common path is to make a right turn on to the stem of a T intersection. The curvatures make for a somewhat odd shaped T but nothing anyone shouldn’t be able to handle at 25mph.

      So I am biking along and clover #1 in a small SUV/cross over thing passes me a block or so from the turn. Then clover number in a volvo wagon is hanging off my left rear corner trying to decide to pass or not as clover #1 comes to a complete stop to make the simple right hand turn. So here I am with clover #2 blocking me, and clover #1 stoped in front of me with some space to his right. I’m turning right anyway and I’ve long become annoyed at asshats who pass me when I am bicycling only to force me to scrub off speed. So I kept going beeped my air horn and turned right inside clover #1’s suv-like-thing passing him. Now it’s a wide 35mph road and clover #1 gives me a look like I have the problem….

      I’ve had worse at that point. These damn clovers can’t turn for shit but have to pass me immediately and then make me wait. Never mind it takes me a lot more effort to get back up into the 20mph range.

      On my bicycle I expect basic things from drivers that are good manners and not in the vehicle code:
      1) Accelerate faster than I can.
      2) don’t force me to slow after passing me.

      As to the hang-back clovers… well I just go around them and drive on to the sensor much of the time these days.

      • Eric_G
        August 3, 2013 at 12:10 am

        The other thing that drives me nuts on a bicycle is when I’m in traffic, keeping up with the traffic just fine (usually sprinting from traffic light to light), but someone decides that they just MUST get around me because it’s “impossible” for a bicycle to get up the speed of his smoovee, then proceeds to slam on the brakes to make the red light. I know a lot of riders who aren’t afraid to give the offensive vehicle a whack with the tire pump, but I’ll usually just offer up an opinion of their driving skills.

        • BrentP
          August 3, 2013 at 2:09 am

          That too. That happens to me fairly often as well.
          Then there is the experience which characterize by the first driver I encountered of the class. The ‘drive car’ guy. Chinese guy in a typical Japanese make toaster mobile. I think it was a Camry. Long back up at a red light. I pull up behind an SUV taking the lane. This guy goes into a rage yelling at me to “DRIVE CAR”. When the slinky moves forward he goes into oncoming traffic to swing around me and nail the brakes. I promptly repass. As the guy gets more insane I gutter pass to the front and get away from him. I despise gutter passing, but to get away from a psycho I’ll do it.

          Over the years I’ve had other encounters with drivers who demanded to snuggle up to the bumper of the car in front of me. Yet these are the same drivers who rant about bicyclists not following ‘the rules of the road’. Pretty much any driver who goes nutso about my vehicular bicycling brings up that bicyclists don’t follow the law…. except I am and following the law is what pissed them off. The worst are the poor accelerating clovers whom when I get in the left lane and pass them lose it. One tried to crush me into the curb with his van.

  19. Jean
    August 2, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    I LOVE “The Harley Clover”.

    Went on ONE run so far, back in Jersey. Some shmuck on a brown Harley, member of the club that let us ride with them – he was next to me for like 2, 3 hours, from early morning until we broke for lunch around 11:??.

    When I say, “Next to”? We were riding “in formation,” which means offset nose to tail, two across in the lane. (I’m sure all the riders would know it on sight, but hard to specify in words. It’s like this, if this line of text is a lane: ` , ` ,
    So, person in front is to the right of center. about 3 feet back to the left, next rider; then three feet behind HIM, to left, is next rider – and so on.

    And when I say “NEXT to”? He was half a mile in front of me to the left. Then half a mile behind me. Then in my f*cking lap. Then to my RIGHT (I was on the right side of the road.) Then in the other lane (ONCOMING TRAFFIC, for fuck’s sake!)
    We took one turn, HE took it wide and slow – and forced me to accomodate, which forced the NEXT person behind me OFF THE FUCKING ROAD trying to make sure _I_ didn’t fuck HIM over…
    Now, I was rather novice at that time, on MY new Harley (VROD A), So at first I thoguht it was ME… Until at lunch, others confirmed my notes, that no matter WHAT, he was all over the place.

    Which begs the question, WHY WAS HE ALLOWED TO RIDE?
    Almost killed 4 of us – me, my girlfriend (riding behind me), and the rider and his passenger that got forced off the road. (And into a low ditch that that rider was good enough to ride out. I thought we were about to watch a Road King do a low-side and then flip over on people.)

    Thing is, the whole bike was repainted, like it’d been customized in the new paint colors.
    Maybe it’d been down a few too many times…? No evidence of it, but hey… If dickhead was riding THAT badly – NO tempo, NO positioning, NO control – maybe it was a rat bike by the time he was done with repairs?

    • Boothe
      August 2, 2013 at 5:32 pm

      Jean – It has been my experience that there are motorcyclists and there are those who want to be motorcyclists. Much like there are guitarists and those who want to play, try to play and are just plain awful, no matter how hard they try. Many of those with no talent for the sport, but insist on riding anyway, end up at the very least scared sh!tless a time or two, skinned up, hospitalized and quit riding. Or they take themselves out of the gene pool. That’s fine with me as long as no one else is involved. But it’s the idiots like the one you describe that simply need to ride alone or not ride at all. Even good riders occasionally make mistakes, but a bonehead like that will almost invariably end up getting someone injured or killed. You ask a valid question: Why was he allowed to ride with the group? If the leaders of the run didn’t have the cojones to call him out, I’d have said something to him. And if he didn’t straighten up I’d have broken off from the run and rode on my own. Years ago, I had a number of friends that were good enough riders I could trust them to ride behind me. Now, I have only one guy I trust. With everyone else, I stay behind and watch them like a hawk. All it takes is for a little sightseeing to get between the rider behind me and his brake lever when I have to slow and we’ve got a pile up. It just happened to a couple of my coworkers. One of them just returned to work after weeks of hospitalization and rehab. They were four hours into a Missouri to California run and the guy in back was looking at a windmill farm. When he looked up, it was just in time to see the lead rider signalling to turn and he hit him. It was split second, both bikes totaled, one broken back. I have well maintained bikes, good gear and a limited amount of skin. You can call me rude, crass and antisocial, but I intend to keep my hide intact. And if I hurt some “wannbe’s” feelings in the pursuit thereof by refusing to ride with him…well that’s TFB.

      • Jean
        August 2, 2013 at 6:03 pm

        Yeah… He disappeared at lunch time, I went looking.

        While riding, I wanted to kill him, no exaggeration. As in, slip a blade in and twist. I noticed everyone else gave him a wide berth, too. And I found he was nowhere near me when we continued on afterwards, which suited me JUST FINE.

        My biggest complaint when driving a cage is that I’m not allowed ram-spikes, rockets, and Terminators (rocket-powered skateboard with an explosive warhead, locks on to a target and follows it. From an old deathrace game.)
        I don’t pretend to be the best, and sometimes need a wake-up call – but I can smell shitty from a mile away, and I want to correct it… Permanently.

        • John Illinois
          August 2, 2013 at 9:53 pm

          Far too many people buy a big fat Harley as their first bike. They need to start out on a smaller bike, just to learn how to ride the damn things. I started out on a Honda 305–obviously that was a few years ago. I got off that bike and the last I saw of it, it was being driven through the door of the car that pulled out in front of me from a side street, by the car that was behind me. I was busy trying to run at 25 MPH, before I fell down, luckily on grass. I decided that motorcycles were not for me. Call me a coward if you will, but I am still alive.

  20. Ender
    August 2, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    What Family Stick Figure Clover doesn’t know, is that they’ve given a predator some information about their family. If they also have the school sticker and maybe something else like the “Salt Life” sticker, they’ve just given someone enough information to snatch their kids.

    Pull up to the school…. “Hey, I met your mom at the beach, her Black Suburban broke down and she was taking the dog to the vet, she’s asked me to pick you up”

    Stupid!

  21. Eric_G
    August 2, 2013 at 12:25 pm

    We’ve always called the old car clovers “mad hatters,” because up until recently they were always wearing the fedora in the Buick, even in the hottest summer day. Always 50MPH, no matter what the actual speed limit was …including in areas where 50 is way too fast.

    As for the family stickers on the back, the real problem clovers are the ones who put the “humorous” stickers, like the Star Wars family, the ax-murder family, etc. What’s up with that? Are you really the cut-up of the cul-de-sac, ’cause I’m not laughing. I thought we were basically over the bumper sticker thing after the “baby on board” fiasco anyway. When I’m driving I really don’t give a s*** about your politics, sense of humor, favorite band or deity. If you really want to help out, put one of those “how’s my driving” 800 numbers on the back so I can offer (constructive, of course) feedback.

    • Eightsouthman
      August 2, 2013 at 2:46 pm

      Eric_G, you old curmudgeon, got no sense of humor? I see a sticker now and then that I like, some funny, some insightful and some just informative. I’d have an Oat Willie, Keep On Truckin’ or Onward Thru the Fog sticker in my window in a heartbeat now that the 82nd Airborne crowd doesn’t know what it means. A friend still has an Oat Willie sticker, one over a mj leaf on his ’79 TA put there when the car was new….and it lives sorta

      • Jean
        August 2, 2013 at 4:41 pm

        I’d love to hear what those mean….
        Kilroy is about as far as my knowledge goes, I’m afraid. always happy to find another polite way of saying “F-ck you” to those who need to know what it means – but of course, don’t. ;-)

        Let’s see if Google can get me some info.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 4:47 pm

          jean, Oat Willie’s was a head shop(s) in Tx. Austin, San Antonio, maybe Dallas and Houston too. They were forced out of business several years ago by draconian laws meant just for them. They could have titled it the Oat Willie’s ruination law and it would have been right on. Right On. They had some very funny window stickers.

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 4:55 pm

            Don’t get it myself (Googled the images) but … I DO get the sentiment.

            Would be funny to be able to drug piggy so he tests positive whenever the dept checks. I’m sure they do check the piggies for drug use…

          • Boothe
            August 2, 2013 at 7:18 pm

            Eight – I was more of a Fabulous Furry Freak Bros & Zippie the Pinhead fan. I’ve done a little “alternative” drawing and cartooning here and there over the years, so Keep on Truckin’ works for me too. It was rather iconic of that era. Although the artist, Robert Crumb, never intended for it to become the greeting card for the counter-culture as it did. Hell he’s probably still fighting copyright infringements and the IRS to this day.

      • Boothe
        August 2, 2013 at 5:08 pm

        Yeah Eight – I saw a window sticker I really liked on the back glass of pickup down at the sale barn the other day. It read “I don’t need sex anymore. The government f**ks me every day”. I wouldn’t put in on my rig, but I couldn’t help but relate to it and smile when I saw it.

        • Jean
          August 2, 2013 at 5:23 pm

          I like it.
          I want it for my cube at work…

          • Eightsouthman
            August 2, 2013 at 5:29 pm

            Me too!

  22. garysco
    August 2, 2013 at 10:44 am

    Suburu AWD = guaranteed Obama voter.

    • Jean
      August 2, 2013 at 4:38 pm

      FUCK NO. And I RESENT that remark.

      (Though I had to sell my WRX before O’Nigger was on the ticket.)

    • Selym
      August 2, 2013 at 5:34 pm

      Not *this* Subaru driver!

    • Selym
      August 2, 2013 at 6:54 pm

      Where I’ve been driving lately (greater Boston area), most of the Obama/Biden stickers are on Volvos and hybrid cars.

      One of the funniest (?) things I ever saw was a bumper sticker reading “Live simply so others may simply live” on a late-model European luxury car. The owner of that car must be the poster child for Limousine Liberalism.

    • garysco
      August 2, 2013 at 6:56 pm

      Sorry, no offense to WRX owners. I was referring to the I-am-smarter-than-you-looking, slow driving, clover station wagon crowd.

      • Selym
        August 2, 2013 at 7:13 pm

        Yes, the Liberal Librarian type with the sensible hair style. Cambridge, MA is absolutely *filthy* with them.

      • Boothe
        August 2, 2013 at 7:22 pm

        Yeah, I know the type garysco. I try to blow by them on my Z fast enough that they look at each other and go “What was that?”

        • Selym
          August 2, 2013 at 7:25 pm

          I blow past them in my *Subaru* fast enough to knock the copy of _Dreams from My Father_ out of their hands.

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 9:18 pm

            Why the …. HIT THEM! HIT THEM DAMMIT!!!! Subies will go over speed bumps! ;-)

            (I make it a point to never be in Cambridge… But the GF’s daughter goes there for art supplies. She’s thin enough she won’t even be a speed bump, so – extra points if you get her! She’s not MY daughter…) [Don't ask.]

  23. garysco
    August 2, 2013 at 10:07 am

    And all this time I thought I was the only one who thought this way. I love it. I also find great amusement at the insurance salesmen and other assorted cubical dwellers who drop $30,000 on a new Electra Glide because their alter-ego saw a Brando movie growing up, and now they have the extra cash and credit to satisfy it.

    But you haven’t lived until you reside near a summer tourist National Park. From June till October you have to be verrrrry wwary of the rental RV’s on state highways and their death grip, scared shitless drivers who brake to 25 on any curve in the road, and are also too scared to use a turnout.

    • August 2, 2013 at 10:09 am

      Hi Gary,

      You’re not alone – welcome to the club!

      And: I live less than two miles from the Blue Ridge Parkway… so I’m well acquainted with summer-travel RV clovers….!

  24. Klavdy
    August 2, 2013 at 4:55 am

    The ones who drive with their fog or driving lights on at all times, dazzling oncoming drivers.
    Australia is not prone to fog, yet still they persist in doing this.
    When questioned, most get extremely defensive , claim it’s for “Safety”.
    Dazzling other drivers is “safe” ?

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 2, 2013 at 5:20 am

      Klavdy, do the people who have those extra bright headlights count?
      H.I.D’s I think they call them?

      Sometimes I’m just about blinded by those.

      I can understand the need to see, but…

      P.S.
      Including my headlights, I have six bright lights on my truck facing forward, but I have yet to use more than two while on the road.

      The two facing rearward, well, there’s an S.O.B. out there who does not understand what low beams are for that will find out why I kept those.
      Um, I mean, they are great for backing up to a trailer.

      • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
        August 2, 2013 at 6:47 am

        Nice one DSF. I turned the reversing lights on my car into 100 watt spotlights with override switch for that very purpose. Can’t even tell unless you look real close and see the halogen bulbs. To maintain their brightness I had to use thicker wire but works well. Relays would have been pointless.

        I had some bitch a few years ago on the freeway that was clogging the fast lane some 20k below the limit with no way of getting past her. I gave her a short flash, she hit the fucking brakes.. dirty whore! So I hit her with 300 watts of high beam and spotties. She hit the brakes again, whacked her rearview mirror out of alignment to get the light out of her eyes.

        She eventually got out of that lane, I released my beams and drove past her. The turd gets behind me and hits her beams, pissy weak yellow things with dirty covers. So I hit her right in the face with my reverse spotties. Fuckall she could do so she got outta there quick.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 2, 2013 at 7:12 am

          Ha! Bitches behind a steering wheel. They get this power trip sometimes. Do they think their high beams are like fire from their eyes?

          Women I can understand doing this, but dudes, hmm, I expect more.

          Call me a sexist, but don’t call me a sexist pig. I open the door for women and they like it. Well, except for the ones that have something crawled up their butt.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 2, 2013 at 9:55 am

            Heh. I don’t open doors for women anymore DSF, since they wanted equal rights ;)

      • Eric_G
        August 2, 2013 at 12:13 pm

        HID lights are great IF they are installed properly. My Audi has level sensors that adjust them to keep them pointing down at the road and off to the side. I have become extremely aware of the high beam status because I know they are so bright. They shouldn’t be permitted in the after market unless they have leveling sensors, but who’s going to enforce that one, when we can’t even get a cop to hand out a tailgating ticket, or a failure to yield ticket (too hard to prove in court, and so no guarantee of revenue).

      • Mithrandir
        August 2, 2013 at 5:26 pm

        SDF521,

        I guess you could say that I was

        “Blinded by the light” ;)

        http://youtu.be/Q2-GqYkwjTM

    • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
      August 2, 2013 at 7:06 am

      Hi Klavdy. If fog or driving lights are dazzling then they’re misaligned and should be pointing at the road. Fog lights are useless pointing straight ahead.

      Up here in Albury my nephew got a ticket for having his factory driving lights on in daylight. I wrote up something for him to use in court explaining that they weren’t fog lights as the cop said, but driving lights since they weren’t yellow. Point 1 being the charge was incorrect.

      We took some photos from a distance of 50 metres with low beam and driving lights on. The driving lights were somewhat less bright than the low beams and showed no dazzling effect in the photos at all since they were aligned to the road.

      All this was shown to the judge including that my nephew is a “P” plater (probationary – inexperienced for US readers) and is a constant target for police harassment. Case dismissed, cop angry – perfect ;)

      • BrentP
        August 2, 2013 at 1:32 pm

        US DOT lighting standards are written by political morons. They require upward light to illuminate overhead signs. Because of this many headlamps on US spec cars are quite glaring.

        If a car in US trim has real fog lights it’s because the careful, knowledgeable owner installed them. Because of this they will likely be used correctly. Under US lighting regs they are usually auxiliary lights and do not have the proper beam pattern nor aim for fog lights. They can often be quite annoying to the glare sensitive like me. Most owner installed fog lights are just plain horrible unaimed and cheap with no attention to beam pattern.

        Even rear fog lamps I find to be glaring. Of course they are supposed to cut through fog so they are glaring when there is no fog.

        • Jean
          August 2, 2013 at 4:37 pm

          Brent,
          I … Don’t even know WHAT to f*cking say.

          “US DOT lighting standards are written by political morons. They require upward light to illuminate overhead signs.”

          This requires a SPECIAL sort of stupid. As in, it should’ve been killed at birth, if it figured out how to breath.
          Every time I think there’s no lower level humans can sink to, I am disastrously disappointed (proven wrong.)

    • August 3, 2013 at 11:13 am

      Here in Melbourne, we do get a few foggy mornings each year.

  25. ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
    August 2, 2013 at 2:58 am

    Thanks Eric for another beaut article on the ever present and obnoxious Clover. I love the Taxonomy series as they catalogue precisely those idiots that are in desperate need of chaining to their toilets.

    I dunno if you have something similar in the USSA, but here we have the “Deni Ute Muster”, a few days of drunken stupidity which, I must admit, sounds like fun, held in Australia’s rural town of Deniliquin. The ute’s (pickups in your world) are usually some 30 year old Australian built Holden or Ford, covered in huge CB antennas, flags, stickers, roll-bar spotties, bull-bars, the obligatory bull skull with horns sticker and drag inducing CAT (Caterpillar – dunno why they equate their ute with a bulldozer) mud flaps. I saw one a while ago in Ballarat with a big, shiny aluminium whale tail spoiler on his cab fer fuck sake. Just awful.

    The things are dressed up with all kinds big-rig crap – likely because their owners can’t afford one or wish they had an endorsement to drive one. I think they’re making up for the lack of size somewhere.

    Often these guys are pretty slow movers because they attract so much attention from the cops or they’re just “cruisin'” and showing off their junkmobile, pretending to be a truck. They’re only good at burnouts and donuts on dirt which is mostly what they get up to at Deni, besides drinking and fighting. Hoping the link works, their prowess can be seen here.

    Another oft-seen Clover is the “Traffic Light Creeper”. This moron will, at every opportunity, creep forward waiting for the light to go green, then stop, creep and stop etc. Notably they’re ALWAYS the last to leave the line when the light changes.

    You might also have covered the “Brake pedal Footrest” Clover, I’m not sure.

    • Eightsouthman
      August 2, 2013 at 3:53 am

      Rev, I’m can’t quit laughing. Jeaysus, as a friend who was sent off to preaching camp as a kid would say. 3 syllables and you just need to hear him say it as it was taught, hilarious. What in hell are they doing? 1,000 lbs of iron on the front of a car? Ok, I looked again and maybe it’s something like a well, hell, can’t think of it. I have body parts off one I picked up in mexico though in a deep barditch. I mean, we have big cowcatchers but we try to blend them in with the vehicle so they don’t show and they’re damned strong things too. A friend pulls up to the house and I say “I see you got Bambi”. he says “Where?”. Well the head’s in the corner of the main bumper part on the inside”. Oh yeah he says, I saw it run across and wondered where it went.
      Those are like lowriders, totally useless. Gee, what will they think to waste money on next? We have those meets with ridiculous 4 WD things but I guess most of them can do some serious 4 WDriving. When you barely have to duck to walk under one you can only assume they won’t get high-centered very easily.

    • garysco
      August 2, 2013 at 10:26 am

      And I thought us Norte Americanos were the only ones who saw Mad Max.

      • August 2, 2013 at 11:03 am

        I have a Toe Cutter license plate surround for my old Kaw Kz900!

        • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
          August 2, 2013 at 11:25 am

          A plate number I wanna get if I can – “GUESS” ;)

          • August 2, 2013 at 11:46 am

            Saw this when I was a kid – probably why I own a Zed!

          • dom
            August 2, 2013 at 11:51 am

            Love how the bike gets airborne when the back tire locks up!

          • Mithrandir
            August 2, 2013 at 4:11 pm

            Dom,

            Are you implying that this scene defies the laws of physics?! ;)

            Sometimes it is amazing what I catch in movies/tv when I look with a more critical eye. At times it can really be funny.

    • August 2, 2013 at 10:42 am

      My pleasure, Rev!

      Your posts are always top-drawer, by the way.

  26. dom
    August 2, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Don’t Be a Fag:

    • liberranter
      August 2, 2013 at 7:15 am

      Man, what’ll civilization do when South Park comes to an end?

      • DownshiftFast5to1
        August 2, 2013 at 7:30 am

        “what’ll civilization do when South Park comes to an end?”

        The unitedstate gooberment will have even more money to give to the rest of the world!?

        I mean, they just took 1.5 billion Dollars and just gave it away to the military in Egypt. …It seems like they need more to give away!

        It’s not like anyone in America needs that money. Right?

        oh, sorry, I digress off topic.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 10:47 am

          Take all the foreign aid, give it to people below the poverty line, that would be communism and while the Dems might could live with it, the Reps would shit a brick, but giving it to our enemies is always a Good Thing.

          • Boothe
            August 2, 2013 at 2:51 pm

            Eightsouthman – Of course it’s good to give “our” enemies foreign and military aid. It creates “jobs.” Everybody knows how important “jobs” are. I mean screw productivity and improving the human condition when we could get more “jobs” by arming your enemies instead. No worries about free market competition in that market. Never mind the seen and the unseen; Bastiat obviously didn’t understand how important “jobs” are. The next thing you know people could start questioning the true value of paper (or digital) money along with the fed’s pump and dump schemes and we could…like…see the whole system collapse. Now our owners on Wall Street and in D.C. can’t let that happen. No, they’re working to create more “jobs” by building drones, militarizing the cops and sending mercenaries abroad to kill brown people. It’s for our own good and for the children. All I can say is…USA! USA! USA! (gag-puke)

          • Eightsouthman
            August 2, 2013 at 3:04 pm

            Boothe, you speak of “productivity” and that has become a bad word for bureaucrats and politicians. Let’s continue to give the elephant in the room a wide berth since huge corporations are getting filthy rich from non-productive crap like cell phones. I could give the entire free market business place, esp, the small business man a financial shot in the arm with just one axiom at work, NO CELL PHONES.

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 4:27 pm

            I’d like to think the Rethuglicans aren’t that stupid….

            But the last few times they’ve intentionally snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and that’s before factoring in their intentionally bad policies…

            Hell, they’re more Liberal than the 60’s Democrats. More “left”.

            Why the F are we giving aid to ANYONE at this point? Is our own backyard really THAT spotless? Are things really going THAT well? Does bribing those who hate us actually make them love us? (No, actually, it increases hatred. but we are gluttons for punishment…)

        • Eric_G
          August 2, 2013 at 12:08 pm

          I loved listening to the press conference where the spokeswhore for Kerry’s state department did everything they could to keep from calling a “military takeover of government” a coup d’etat. Of course if they called it a military coup legally we would have to suspend all aid, and we can’t have that now, can we?

          http://dropbox.curry.com/ShowNotesArchive/2013/07/NA-529-2013-07-11/Assets/Egypt/Matt%20and%20burning%20hoops.mp3

      • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
        August 2, 2013 at 9:50 am

        I dunno Lib.. [snif!] I really don’t know.. buuuhuuu..

      • Jean
        August 2, 2013 at 4:29 pm

        Heh…
        “what’ll civilization do when South Park comes to an end?”

        Methinks you’ve asked the wrong question. When did civilization end, that South Park will NEVER run out of material?

  27. truck driver
    August 1, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    Another visual clue I’ve found is various college/alumni stickers…….

    I’ve found that USUALLY the more book learning someone has the dumber (real world ) they are

    • liberranter
      August 2, 2013 at 7:14 am

      That’s one of nature’s immutable laws.

    • garysco
      August 2, 2013 at 10:38 am

      Makes them feel better for all the money they wasted supporting the professors overstuffed salaries.

  28. Jay Wocky
    August 1, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    When it comes to center turn lanes, there are three ways in which clovers reveal themselves, regardless of make, model or bumper stickers.

    1) They first slow down to a crawl, then ever-more-slowly drift into–but never entirely into–the center lane and stop in order to turn left. As a consequence, all traffic behind them must slow or completely stop as though there were no center turn lane at all. Or

    2) When using a center lane to merge into traffic following a left turn from a side street into the center lane, they just stop dead and wait. Or

    2) Clovers with no intention of turning left, nevertheless carelessly (eating? texting? whatever) allow two wheels to drift into a center turn lane while approaching–from the opposite direction–a righteous user who is sitting there, signal on, totally stopped and waiting for an opening to turn left. In other words, sitting there about to be sideswiped or head-oned, and having no options for evasive maneuvers.

    The latter situation is when I start flashing my high beams (I found out long ago that a horn is useless then). Unfurtunately, I fear that particular stick on my steering column will have a short life, because the turn from the main drag onto my home street is–you guessed it–a leftie from a center lane.

  29. August 1, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    Some other sure signs of a clover I’ve noticed in my driving experiences:

    1.) Any car which has an “educator” tag…the kind reserved for teachers. Teachers for the most part have the mindset and mentality that they are all-knowing and that you must submit to their intellectual superiority in every facet of life…because in their mind they are the most intelligent beings in the universe. How else could they have possibly gotten a teaching job if this weren’t the case. They feel the need to “teach” you how to drive by forcing you to follow their driving example where ever possible.

    2.) The car being driven is a Prius, PT Cruiser, Chevy HHR, or Mercedes C class. While this is not a guaranteed sure sign of a clover, I find that 95% of the time anyone who is behind the wheel is driving in a manner that obstructs other drivers.

    3.) Failure to turn on headlights when raining or when still dark out. From what I see, clovers tend to be completely oblivious to their surrounding while driving. Rather than rely on their own judgement, they will trust that the car will automatically turn on the headlights for them when necessary. They’re likely driving in a newer car that has a LED dash and because they can see the dash displays they seem to be totally unaware that it’s dark outside. I commute 30 miles each way and not a day goes by where I don’t see these dumbasses pull out of their subdivision in a black car at 5a in the morning with no lights on and literally drive 10 miles before having a moment of clarity.

    • DownshiftFast5to1
      August 2, 2013 at 12:26 am

      “3.) Failure to turn on headlights when raining”

      I’m not so sure that’s clover behavior.
      Perhaps it’s a variable indicator?

      A heavy downpour at daybreak, maybe.

      In the middle of the day, not so much.

      • August 2, 2013 at 12:17 pm

        Yeah…I’m not referring to when it’s just a light rain. Where I live we’ve been getting these popup thunderstorms this summer that dump 2-3″ of rain in an hour…where there’s standing water on the road…hydroplane conditions…visibility of maybe 20 ft in front of your car at best. The kind of weather where it’s so shitty out that you can’t safely go faster than about 40 w/o losing traction, and so there you are doing 40 in the left lane watching the rain hit the road so hard it’s bouncing back in the air and all of a sudden you almost run over some dumbass doing 15 mph in the left lane with no lights on. And to make matters worse, the color of their car is either gray or silver so it blends in perfectly with the monsoon conditions.

        • Jean
          August 2, 2013 at 1:13 pm

          Makes you rethink those conspiracy nuts WRT Chemtrails and HAARP, huh? ;-)

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 4:16 pm

            (RE: storms) :-P

          • Eightsouthman
            August 2, 2013 at 4:38 pm

            Jean, there are videos of gummint planes spraying something in the atmosphere. Don’t know where to find it but there’s a great one made by a couple guys in a private jet staying behind a very large USAF plane. For some reason they finally thought they were being tailed and then cut it off. You could see the big nozzles out there on the winds turn off and then back on. I can’t say what they were spraying but unless it’s water it doesn’t have the sound of anything good.

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 5:40 pm

            Yeah, read a few times about that, then got involved in life…

            I’d love to see people nail a few of those SOBs with Stingers or the like. It’s getting to the point where that’s the ONLY option.

            Making a Corporation a legal “person” before the law was an egregious breach of justice.

            We are IN World War Z, the “zombies” are Clovers (and that term must be extended to cover all state-worshippers here).
            Can’t kill what’s already (brain-)dead, right?

        • Jean
          August 2, 2013 at 4:15 pm

          Yeah – found one or two of those in my time…
          When I had the Buick, I considered hitting them a few times, but that hood was costly to replace, and in NJ, I would’ve been at fault no matter what, hitting them from behind.

          “But Officer, they LIKE it when I don’t use Lube!!!” :-P

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 3, 2013 at 1:49 am

          Turd Burglestein, that *is* a good example of clover behavior.

          We don’t get those kinds of storms all that much here anymore it seems.
          I’d chalk that up to geoengineering too.

          Ha. The next time I see a jet swerve off their flight path in a zig-zag, and then suddenly correct, I’m gonna think it’s a clover at the drone controls.

    • Ferret
      August 2, 2013 at 2:15 am

      1.) Any car which has an “educator” tag…

      We don’t have those reserved for teachers down here, but there is one that has a mortarboard logo in the center and says “Support Education” below it. On the way to a club one night a few years back, I saw one of these that had been customized with lettering that read, “ME SMART”.

      I almost wrecked the car, I was laughing so hard.

      • August 3, 2013 at 10:56 am

        For some reason, the most worrying sign I ever saw on a car was a shakily hand-written card in a back window that read “Warning, Belgian disabled driver”.

        • August 3, 2013 at 11:06 am

          At least he warned you!

    • joeallen
      August 2, 2013 at 11:54 pm

      Almost all the 3 drivers are women, young women, young fat women……………….

      • Eightsouthman
        August 3, 2013 at 12:55 am

        The wife and I were discussing this today. She works with all these “fat” women, rolls as it were. I mentioned going off to college at Texas Tech College, long before it was a university. 22,000 students my first year, probably quite a few less than half women but oh my, at least 10,000 of the best looking Tx. gals you ever saw. My first girlfriend was a football playing phenom, run like the wind and throw like a man. She was so hot, and then there were all those others you just had to sample for what they were, one, a tennis player, grabbed my box of ammo and bent the bullets, literally. Ok gals, lets see yall do that. I don’t recall a fat girl. Not anywhere and damned sure no fat men. Now these guys seem to be ok with their little fat girlfriends. The guys aren’t fat so you’d think they’d be looking for trim women too. Not so evidently. As Mike Leach once so famously said, You guys need to be thinking about your scholarship and football(to football players), not your fat little girlfriends. I guess he noticed it too.

        • BrentP
          August 3, 2013 at 2:58 am

          Eight, I went to engineering school so the idea of fit women being common is something I’ve never encountered. By the time I left engineering school the disease had spread to the population at large. I saw a rant online by a guy going on about how simply ‘not fat’ women can demand any price they wanted leaving all the non-big-alpha guys with little choice. Your comment reminded me of it. With online dating and the like fit and attractive single women without kids have become extremely picky.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 3:40 am

            Brent, we’re talking of different generations here. When I left high school, everybody was fairly much athletes and had never eaten all the crap that’s common these days. Growing up we worked and played hard and didn’t have disposable income such as the “common” class has today. Yep, we were common, and just “poor” by standards today, nobody had money to squander on this and that and that made people have ambition and work hard. And I understand people after that time were subjected to food we never had and wouldn’t have wanted. I was reminded of this today when eating a home grown watermelon and how growing up, we all had as much of home grown food as we wanted, none of which had anything added to it. My wife works with mainly Hispanics although I don’t think it would matter what background they were from since none of them, even the ones in their late forties are married. Yes, they live with another person and have children by them but don’t take their name since they have always been on the dole, i.e., always had something like a Lone Star card no matte what state they lived in. It’s more a matter of what society and for the most part, what govt. has done to the family and people’s ability to make a decent living and even more than that, what you should expect from life. Growing up, I expected nothing from govt. not a dime and had it drilled into me we had to work for everything we had. If you didn’t work, you didn’t eat or have much of anything. That’s no longer true and my wife’s coworkers for the most part, don’t depend on the ability to buy food and pay rent solely on their own merits so they take their paychecks and buy new cars, eat out every meal(crap, just pure crap)and don’t teach their children that there’s any other way and probably mostly because they don’t know there is any other way. It’s bleak and even the kids of people who can support themselves and live well fall into the chasm of govt. handout, even if they don’t directly receive it. Of course, if their parents didn’t buy into eating crap then the kids wouldn’t either and here we get back to what’s available to eat, what is expected of you growing up(working, playing and not expecting anything from anyone)so the kids eat crap just like their overweight parents. Boy’s don’t have the same weight problems girls have and are more likely to participate in sports, organized or not. Now the boys just think that girls are fat creatures and accept it at face value. We see all these skinny girls in their teens now that have rolls of fat. What? Yep, skinny but very unhealthy because of the fat and crap they eat. I see no end in sight, simply worse results as the years and govt. creep into their lives more and more. Peer pressure to be fit is gone now as is the parents desire to see their children fit. Hey, he’s(she’s) like me, a bit of a fatty. Wait mom, dad, your kids aren’t like you so much, they’re way fatter than you were that age. Ah hell, never mind, I’m hungry, gotta run to Mcdonald’s and get me some fries and a fried pie. Later. My wife and I never lived in town. When we move where we are 30 years ago everyone asked us(work, mostly)what we did when we wanted something at night from the store. Put it on the list if it’s that important, otherwise just do what we’d always done, stay at home and eat good food and not waste money. No running to the convenience store for us and convenience stores didn’t even exist for our generation growing up. If it wasn’t on the table when you ate, you didn’t get it. Besides, you had things to do before school and afterward….not many hours of the day you didn’t have things to do. But the main thing, no govt. in your life at all as far as receiving money or food or anything else. When I was growing up, ice cream was a big deal and you expended as much energy making it as you got from eating it, big difference from today.

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            August 3, 2013 at 4:17 am

            The gooberment with its food pyramid, I think that had more to do with it than anything else.

            Real Food vs Food Pyramid Non-Food

            http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/real-food-vs-food-pyramid-non-food/

          • Jean
            August 3, 2013 at 6:16 am

            RE: DownshiftFast5to1 August 3, 2013 at 4:17 am
            The food pyramid came from farmers fattening cattle. It is 100% bullshit.
            Meat, lean protein especially (includes fish and eggs). Grains? That’s what prey animals eat.

            You want to be a cow or rabbit? Or a bear or lion?
            Look up Paleo diet, ancestral diet, Atkins, South Beach – all high protein, fat as needed, specific limited carbs, no crap.
            When I work out – I get slim, eating MORE meat and leafy greens than I do when I’m not working out, eating crap. I lose the need for sweets when I work out. (Doesn’t hurt that while not truly athletic, I was VERY active when younger – so I like to workout for HOURS.)

            As to the fit girls – they’re around, but seriously in the minority – like the man who is a C-level at 27, with a few mil in the bank, a Lamborghini in the driveway, is 6’2″, 250 # of muscle, chiseled jaw, no fat on him.
            I wish I were exaggerating – any girl above about a 3 knows her value (though not the mechanics of it), and actually has it inflated a few points. So, a 3 thinks she’s a 5, a 5 thinks she’s an 8, etc. 30 pounds extra? She’s a BBW. So what if she’s only 4’2″ tall…

            Every special snowflake needs to learn, equality means mowing your own grass, paying your own way – and sleeping alone. It also means taking care of your own children. No more marriage (Indentured servitude for HIM, now that she can also just take the children, house, and half his life for 18 years or so.) , no more motherhood (Not worth the risk – don’t need to be married for child support). Get bitchy, there’s a newer, fresher model slut just looking for a meal ticket…

            And it’s downhill for her after about 27 or so. And the wall hits hard about 35… And children are difficult by then, and near-impossible shortly afterwards, even WITH modern science. But she’s got the world eating out of her hand at 18 and thinks it’ll last forever.

            Short-sighted creatures, humans are. (Not just women, of course.)

            I find it hard to give a crap any more, though – hard to care about people who will take you for all your worth, and replace you without even telling you… “forget” her birth control, try to inseminated herself from a condom, cut you down in front of friends, damage your relationship with your family, and does it all with the help of the state, for good measure…

            They’re just NOT worth it.

            See – you don’t pay a whore for sex; you pay her to leave afterwards, and take all her shit with her.

            But I’m just a bitter old man in a young(er) man’s body…

            • August 3, 2013 at 11:04 am

              Amen on the “paleo” diet.

              Six months ago I was 220-something; just by cutting out three-fourths or more of the carbs I used to eat (bread, pasta, etc.) I’m down to 195.6 pounds (as of yesterday). I eat all the meat I want; drink at least a pot of coffee everyday. No problems cutting down.

              I used to carb load to bulk up – and it worked, but it was a double-edge sword. I got stronger – added muscle (max bench at 220 pounds was 305 pounds; worked out with 225 for four sets of 8-10 reps. I’m now down to 5-6 reps, max, with 225 – and probably my max 1 rep on bench is around 265… ) but also got a gut.

              Now I’ve lost most of the gut – and intend to lose the rest of it. Five more pounds to go. 190 – college weight – is my goal.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 3, 2013 at 9:19 am

            Heh. Nice one Jean. I’ve had 2 breeders try to claim they got pregnant to me. Lots of ‘em are bullshitters saying they’re on the pill, had a hysterectomy or some other “problem”. I just tell them that’s not possible until they’ve wasted heaps of moola on lawyers. That’s when I bring out the vasectomy certificate! I got it done about 10 years ago and haven’t looked back.

            I also make sure that I secretly film the first 3 new “encounters” with a girl to make sure she can’t claim rape – especially when she’s filmed on top obviously enjoying herself. Unfortunate we have to protect ourselves like this – but the recordings bring back fond mamm.. ahem.. memories.. ;)

            On food pyramids.. yeh, they’re bullshit. Much like the “Five-a-Day” crap about fruit and veggies number was picked out of thin air:

            http://john-ray.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/how-now-discredited-five-day-mantra-was.html

            I’m 45, 6ft and a mesomorphic 85kg (188lb) with a fast metabolism. It’s mainly fast because I feed it whatever It wants. Sometimes nothing but steak and mushrooms, mashed potato, spinach, pasta, ice cream, fish sticks, meat pies, coffee etc. I get a complete diet but I only eat one thing of a kind per meal unless I wanna waste heaps more time and mix it up. Plenty of energy on tap contrary to most things I’ve been told.

            Obviously, people with health problems might need to take more care but even as kids, we instinctively had a craving for certain things, such as softer clay rocks from our dam we’d chew on for the magnesium, although I didn’t understand why until years later. If people learned to listen to their bodies rather than their minds and junk advertising then all these “health” fads and scares would disappear.

        • August 3, 2013 at 11:31 am

          And the worst part?

          These fat gals aren’t ashamed of it. They wear short-shorts (and tight Ts) that let the rolls flop over the sides, bare the cottage cheese on their thighs….

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 12:27 pm

            eric, while it would appear they aren’t ashamed of it, every one of them is on a “diet” but they have no self-control and no idea of what to eat. One coworker said she was going to go home and fix an egg salad(it’s a start although it could be bad)so it was yeah, go girl and then she said And Chips. Screeech, No, not chips. She actually doesn’t know how bad chips are. Of course she did neither although she might have munched on chips AFTER the whole family went out for fast food. Now the really young ones, late teens and early 20’s for sure see the trim girls and want to be one but they are literally addicted to junk food and don’t know how to break the chains. And if they just have to be sluts and give it all away in the worst manner, that’s how it will go. I have a niece who’s a really flabby, fat baby mama….with tats, and a niece in law who’s morbidly obese(thyroid problems, yes, thyroid as in You sit on your thyroid, never get off your ass except to fetch something else bad to eat. Won’t even walk across the yard to the alley to use the dumpster, really lazy. How’s those Little Smokies treating you?) She’s got tats too. But her old mama, nearly my age has NEW tats over old ones so there you go. Never mind making ends meet is a problem, spend money on tats, something that’s a must for living these days. I should have gotten some big tats on my big guns back in the day so I could show them all off now. What is it? It’s old age and that’s the way your tats will look some day. Problem was, I already knew this and never even considered a tat. I’m waay out of touch. Leonard Smalls tat, Mama Didn’t Love Me.

            • August 3, 2013 at 12:39 pm

              Yup.

              We know some people – they’re nice people. But almost child-like in this respect. The guy is about my age – about 45 – but looks 60. He’s at least 300 pounds and has edema, sleep apnea, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and heart problems. It does not occur to him that most of his problems are the result of his being morbidly obese. Nor that if he just lost some weight – and stopped eating shit food – probably, many of his health problems would either go away or be greatly diminished.

              Instead, he goes to the doctor for another pill. And stops by Arby’s on the way home….

              Our land abuts theirs, and my running trail through the woods passes near their place. I’ve told them they can use the trail anytime they want to.

              I’ve never seen them use it even once.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 2:02 pm

            eric, maybe you should comment in passing they could just walk on it. Or just take a walk with your wife when you know or think they might be outside to observe. Hi, we’re just taking a nice walk, about to turn and go back, why don’t yall take a walk with us? I saw a fresh box of dunkin donuts back there a ways and forgot to pick them up, No, that was mean but maybe you did see something really neat. Before my wife’s accident that ruined her ankle we walked dogs twice a day all the way to the end of the drive. It kept us feeling good, even when the wind is blowing snow or ice sideways and you have to bundle up, probably got much more benefit from it then too.

            • August 3, 2013 at 5:19 pm

              You can lead a horse to water….

          • Mithrandir
            August 4, 2013 at 4:46 am

            Eric,

            Sometimes the rolls on some gals push out their back to give the impression an extra set of breasts.

            Extra weight can be born on the body when one is younger, but eventually the extra weight will cause some health issues.

            • August 4, 2013 at 9:56 am

              Yup!

              Some people also carry extra weight better than others.

              The other day, I bought a new set of running shoes and the girl who helped me was a bit on the husky side, but athletic and looked fine in my eyes!

  30. Ferret
    August 1, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Regarding the stick figure family Clover, that fits into a theory I’ve had for a while of the subtle signs that add up to a driver who isn’t planning on going anywhere any time soon. I look for them as I approach a red light on a multi-lane road to determine which one I don’t really want to be stuck behind when the light drops.

    There’s the stick figure family, the local religious radio station sticker, the elbow out the window, the head leaned over at a 45 or greater-degree angle, the convertible top down with the windows up, a herd of stuffed animals piled up in the rear deck, the out-of-state tag, and many others. Each one deducts a point. The lower the score a driver gets, the more likely they are to either leave the light at a glacial pace or fall asleep at the light altogether.

    • Brandonjin
      August 1, 2013 at 5:59 pm

      These are excellent observations, and they usually fit the stereotype. Takes them about a minute to go 0-45. I also include vehicle type/manufacturer in this scoring system. SUVs, wagons, minivans, tend to travel slower. Subaru’s around here are generally driven by slow clovers as well.

      The old car/old person clover is awful. Just like in the picture, I had someone brake for a green light and then completely stop when it turned yellow. I was stopped behind them, and got a nice 1-2 second view of the yellow light turning red. Turd Burglestein should be happy to know that the car was in fact a PT cruiser.

    • liberranter
      August 1, 2013 at 11:45 pm

      Nothing, and I mean No Thing is as nausea-inducing and terrifying as the cousin of the Stick Figure Family Clover, which is the “Soccer mom whose birth control failed” Clover. She’s the stupid bitch with a vehicle (usually a minivan or an SUV that she can’t properly control) full of screaming kids in various stages of iPoding, texting, and fighting, while she is in the driver’s seat either texting, chatting with another SM in the passenger’s seat while not paying any attention to the road or her surroundings, fooling with her radio knobs, or doing all three at once.

      Encountering a “soccer mom” Clover with a car full of broken condom/failed birth control pill aftermath calls for taking the nearest exit IMMEDIATELY, or even creating one of your own if you have to. Just get off the road right away!

      • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
        August 2, 2013 at 1:49 am

        Hahahaaa..! Awesome Lib. The soccer mums (moms=USSA spelling) here usually drive SUV’s since their status is undermined if they even think of getting a sensible van or station wagon for their broken condom afterbirths.

        Another good sign of a clover is the state of the side and rear windows. If smeared with sticky fingerprints or dog nose prints/licks then avoid.

        • liberranter
          August 2, 2013 at 7:11 am

          Damn, ain’t it hilarious that Clovers are pretty much the same everywhere in the western world?

          • Jean
            August 2, 2013 at 4:02 pm

            Not in the “HA HA!!!” sense of funny….

            More like the mask of Tragedy…

          • joeallen
            August 2, 2013 at 11:51 pm

            Ha!!! I moved to Australia 25 years ago and we sure have our clovers here, maybe more so than in the ussa(r). And because we have lots more scameras (speed and redlight cams) here clovers abound like rabbits. And with clogged roads due to ultra slow speed limits in this USA sized continent inhabited by 22 million, half of who live in just 3 cities. Revo knows what I’m onto.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 3, 2013 at 2:05 am

          joeallen, In the 80’s I worked for US Gypsum who had locations everywhere in the world with Australia being no exception, in fact, I think if you bought wallboard there it said “Sheetrock, TM” US Gypsum. I worked in QC in the lab and so did the guys from Australia who’d come over every couple years to “learn” from us and “learn” they did. They found out Tx. wasn’t much different from their home, felt right at home, and Texans weren’t much different form Aussies, just scrape a little crust off and that’s what you had. They didn’t stand on formalities and were friendly and funny as hell. It was sorta “love at first sight” for Aussies and Texans alike. They loved we rode around in 4WD, always had guns blazing and never had to ask for another cold beer….or beahh as they said. Great guys and easily entertained with our country style of hell raising. I started in on wanting to move to Australia when I was 8 and by the time I was 10, I knew where I was going. Well, I got sidetracked but never gave up the dream of moving there and continuing my education of tromping around the outback, hunting, fishing and raising hell. By the time I got serious about it along about 30 years old, they had re-written their immigration laws and made it very difficult to move there permanently without some company or influential people behind you. Mid-eighties and I saw where Australia was headed and lost my dream. Had I ever emigrated there, I’d be one hard to find “yank” somewhere out there in nowhere. I hate to say it, but if I had and they’d have found me, they’d have wished they hadn’t. I never took a backseat to anyone shooting anything or sneaking up and getting the drop on them. I was chagrined to find my friends get put in the position they finally had foisted on them. All those extra fine old guns getting chopped up and everybody losing their right to defend themselves…….I hang my head, I hang my head.

      • Ferret
        August 2, 2013 at 2:12 am

        That reminds me of another variety of sticker to look for and avoid like the plague – and about the stupidest one on many levels: The silhouette of a figure engaging in some sports activity baseball, hockey, or lacrosse if on a Mercedes or Lexus SUV, with the child’s name under it. That’s fantastic. Now the local molestors know your kid’s name and what he or she can be found doing after school.

        As an aside, has anyone seen the one for people whose daughter is involved in cheerleading with the megaphone and pom-poms? You’ll know the one I’m talking about when you see it and notice that the three parts of it are oriented in a similar configuration as a man’s wedding tackle.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 2, 2013 at 2:49 am

          Ha. Funny, Ferrit, RE: pom-poms.

          One I’m torn with is the dance stickers.
          They have an A-sign very similar to the anarchy sign, and, well, if you think about it, dance *is* anarchy.

          Maybe that’s another one of those variables/depends conditions? Idk.

          The margin of error is probably too slight to mention though.

  31. Cloverism = Disease
    August 1, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Another type: The Meathead Clover.
    The refusal-to-move-right and other Clover-type behaviors are also common to the “Meathead”, which is a particularly irritating subset of Cloverdom. Usually younger men (or middle-aged men who never mentally/emotionally matured past the age of 20), the Meathead makes personal affrontery and “in-your-face” driving aggression a priority in their lives. Oversized, Diesel-powered Dualie King-Cab pickup trucks (especially the Dodge brand) with a jillion extra lights on a roll bar, stickers of the cartoon character “Calvin” urinating on something, fake “bullet hole” stickers or numerous decals related to deer hunting and NASACR are the quintessential signs of a Meathead. He loves his truck, and thinks you should too, thus has the uncontrollable urge to make it as loud and visible as possible. The ultimate Meathead has modified his pickup with exhaust stacks coming up through the bed at each rear-corner of the cab, so he can pretend he’s a big-rig semi-truck driver, yeeee-haw!!! . He loves his truck SO MUCH, he fantasizes about having sex with it. A Van Dyke-style goatee, tank top (or wife-beater shirt) along with a ball-cap worn backwards is a dead giveaway. Of course, narcissism is always present. The Meathead’s walnut-sized brain has a type of short-circuit which can snap at any time. Any real or perceived slight against them by another motorist will typically trigger it. The Meathead will fly off in a rage of cursing, aggressive/reckless driving and upraised middle fingers. It is best to ignore the Meathead altogether; sooner or later their road-rage behavior gets themselves hanged.

    • August 1, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      Excellent, C=D!

      I’ll be adding “The Meathead” to the roster!

      • Cloverism = Disease
        August 1, 2013 at 7:30 pm

        Glad to be of service, Eric. Always happy to help out in the fight against the scourge which is Cloverism.

        More about the Meathead: This is the man-boy who will let his massive diesel dualie pickup sit and idle needlessly…….when it’s Summertime, in a campground, at 2 AM in the morning, just a few campsites away from yours. It will sit there and idle for 15 minutes, with its characteristic lopey-sounding “gung-gung-gung-gung-gung-gung-gung-gung-gung-gung”, until the Meathead decides he wants to go a short drive. So he’s gone for 15 minutes, then he’s back, then the dumb thing sits idling for 15 minutes again, then he leaves for 20 minutes, then he’s back again, letting it sit there and churn away……rinse and repeat.

        This is where you begin to have visions of rocket launchers, grenade launchers, flame-throwers, shotguns, or simply walking over there with a gallon of maple syrup to pour into the fuel tank, or just yanking the keys from the ignition and throwing them down into the honey-hole of the outhouse.

        Now I understand that big-rig semi-truck drivers will let their rigs idle at rest areas, etc., especially in the Winter when they don’t want their engines to cool off, as they can be hard to re-start. But the Meathead? He will let his diesel sit and idle because: 1) It’s his pride and joy 2) He paid a lot of money for it and wants to foist it on the rest of the world as much as possible 3) He believes everyone else appreciates it as much as he does, and 4) He thinks it’s cool. To the Meathead Clover, it doesn’t matter that it’s 75 degrees, or that it’s 2 AM. The world simply MUST be aware of his own self-appointed awesomeness! Because, after all……Clover is as Clover does.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 1, 2013 at 7:40 pm

          Thanks, Cloverism = Disease. Meathead is my neighbor and I frequently wondered where it was he was off to at 2 A.M. that he needed to come back home 15 minutes later, and repeat a couple of times after that.

          He’s camping! Ha. Now I know. … Now what was that you were saying about a gallon of maple syrup? Because he doesn’t shut the motor off when he stops at home either.

          • liberranter
            August 1, 2013 at 11:38 pm

            [Meathead] loves his truck SO MUCH, he fantasizes about having sex with it.

            Something to send Meathead over the edge: at around 2:00AM, or at some point in the middle of the night on one of those rare nights when Meathead isn’t waking the entire neighborhood with his diesel concubine, jam an aluminum Louisville Slugger up the tailpipe, as far as it will go, and hang a pair of baseball, tennis balls, or some other pair of spherical objects on the end of the bat, and scrawl “F*** This Truck” on the bat handle in luminescent letters. No doubt Meathead’s demented, rage-filled screams in the morning will be heard on the other side of the globe.

        • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
          August 2, 2013 at 1:41 am

          Meathead Clover sounds much like the school bully that never grew up.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 2:05 am

          C = D. I can’t stop laughing. I know the guy you’re speaking of but in his defense, I think he just doesn’t realize when it cools off you can shut it down. He’s so accustomed to working in heat and never shutting one off it’s just habit(I hope). A friend came out last week-end in his duallie Dodge crewcab BLACK pickup, similar to my Chevy that’s BLACK and we talked about pickup colors and how we both love black and since it’s not really any hotter than red, blue or dark green, our other fav colors, we’ll just keep black and his pickup idled the hour we talked cause he didn’t want to have to go out, use his gloves to open the door in the 105 degree heat and then come back in and wait for it to cool off. And he doesn’t even have a dog. No way I’m going to cut my pickup off and let my dog suffer or die. Sure, it’s a diesel and loud, but that’s one reason to have a diesel, the extra cooling capacity of everything on it. It really does become habit with a lot of guys though when it’s not necessary and I hear what you’re saying. In cool weather I pull up and shut mine off…..if it’s going to be an extended stay, otherwise, 15-20minutes, I let er run, keeps it cool and not just inside. I hate walking away and hearing the heat build and the tick tick tick of everything gaining lots of heat. I”m not young though so give us old coots a break. We grew up on diesels and back in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s you just didn’t want to shut one down…..18 wheelers that is. And hey, it’s hot in the summertime but I can’t speak for campgrounds. I guess I camp at home. Back in my younger days I’d get home and lie in bed and not be able to get a wink. SHIT! my wife would hear me say and I’d be off to the Freightliner outside, fire it up and crawl in and have sweet dreams. She could come too if she wanted, plenty room. rum rum rum rum said the old Cummins….rackity rackity rackity said the old Cat Better watch it Lib, he’ll get in and rev it up a few times and no telling who will eat that bat. I had a young guy tell me after I asked him why he let his pickup idle when we were working and he said That’s what they’re for(diesels)(his daddy paid the fuel bill). I told him no engine was for idling but diesels handled it a lot better than gas. I can remember having my truck idling for hours while I slept and it sounded sick. Sit there and rev it up and hold it several times and it would clear out to some extent. I was always glad to hit the road and air it out so it ran smooth. Even back before diesel pickups, there was always that guy at the campground or some venue outside who’d let his pickup idle, often with a big block gas engine and not much muffling. I think it’s in the genes.

          • Cloverism = Disease
            August 2, 2013 at 3:42 pm

            I hear ya. It’s not diesels or trucks I have an issue with, or even that their owners may let them sit and idle for a while. My issue is the man-boy Meathead and his unabashed, in-your-face cloverish worship of his truck…..and his reasons for idling it are nothing more than trying to satisfy his own vanity and deliberate attempts to make sure everyone else around him hears it too.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 11:38 am

          C=D, rocket launchers. Too cool. When my dad bought a new ’57 Chevy I couldn’t get over the “rockets” in the hood and constantly wanted him to get some real rockets. I know he’d liked to have done that too since he’d cuss under his breath, never understood what he was saying but it was sorta like a dog’s growl, when we’d come across a trooper or cop preying on motorists. I thought using them on slow traffic would be fine too and he probably did also as he drove pretty hard.

    • dom
      August 1, 2013 at 9:48 pm

      OMG I think I have a video of a truck just like this. When I finally go through all my footage I’ll upload that one.

    • Eightsouthman
      August 2, 2013 at 1:32 am

      C-D, I don’t know what state you’re in but that type of vehicle in Tx is one you should allow extra room for on curves since they all think they’re NASCAR drivers. Crewcab diesel pickups are de rigeur in Tx. and people think because everybody else has one they’re camo and actually fairly much are. These are the people who regularly drive 100mph and think nothing of it….and don’t get in their way. I can see it being different other places since Texans and NM’cans can’t seem to go fast enough. OTOH, Calvin stickers have been out in these states for a decade or more. Now everybody is buying work truck exteriors with fairly nice interiors and they all look the same……and stay out of my way too, I got places to go and not much time….running on a short clock here.

      • Swamprat
        August 2, 2013 at 2:06 am

        Here in Houston, TX, about 80 percent of the problem clovers are in Corollas. Very easy to identify.

        Although I think that the Meathead Clover is undesirable, he is not really a clover by definition. Clovers do not drive at 100 mph. They are slow, inconsiderate drivers who want to impose their driving style on everyone else while clogging traffic. While the Meathead has some cloveritic characteristics, faster driving disqualifies him from being in the clover family. Perhaps, he is just a meathead.

        I saw a couple of these in the work parking lot today. Big, loud diesel trucks, louder than a Kenworth added to the misery of being around the Meathead. Not quite a clover, but definitely a meathead.

        • phil
          August 3, 2013 at 4:56 pm

          Well, in all fairness, corollas are appliances, not cars. As such, one can expect the “drivers” to act accordingly.

      • Cloverism = Disease
        August 2, 2013 at 3:49 pm

        Eightsouthman, I’m in Michigan, in metro Detroit. I know the “Calvin urinating” stickers are quite dated in many places, but occasionally you still see them around here. After “Calvin”, many of these Meatheads started sporting a figure of some kid with a ball-cap on backwards, flipping the bird while grabbing his crotch. Today, there seems to be a lot of variety in the design of stickers, but they typically revolve around deer hunting (not that I have anything against hunters, I’m one myself).

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 4:29 pm

          C = D, I rarely see stickers anymore on pickups, maybe Mommy SUV’s but that’s about run its course too….thankfully. I felt like I needed something to stand out living in Odessa since everybody, and I mean everybody, had some sort of individualist bling or something on their vehicle. One guy around the corner had a rear window sticker that covered nearly the whole thing and I couldn’t figure out what it was until I’d seen it a dozen times or more and then felt stupid but I finally figured out the thing inside a circle with a slash through it like eric’s clover was a worm. Then it fell into place. My sister-in-law and her husband once gave me one of those applique things that are a sunguard for your back window, custom fit to your vehicle. I felt bad about never putting it up but it looked like a gun rack with an Uzi and an AR. Neat, for someone who didn’t travel with a Hi Power beside the seat and an Uzi behind the seat and an AR behind the passenger seat where I could reach any of them instantly. My dad went on a 6 hour trip with me once and asked if I expected trouble. I told him I really didn’t expect anything but was prepared for whatever it was as best I could be. He said that made sense and I eventually got him a SS Ruger 357.

  32. BrentP
    August 1, 2013 at 2:13 pm

    A variant of ‘old car clover’ is ‘you’ll break your car clover’.

    These are the clovers who drive their modern or even very recently made cars within the performance envelope of a model A Ford. Why? Because to actually use the capabilities of their vehicle in their mind would lead to premature failure. Never mind that the automaker did far worse than the car’s nominal capabilities in accelerated life testing. Testing which the car had to survive to be sold.

    For many years clovers have told me that my habit of properly accelerating swiftly, driving proper speeds for limited access highways, accelerating to merge, and so on and so forth would break my car. My car, the one they said I’d break, has over 200K miles on it, is closing in on 17 years old, spent its entire life in the Chicago area, and other than the driver’s seat and small bald spot where my right foot pivots on the floor mat, looks almost like new. And other than occasionally sychro showing its age drives almost like new too because I replaced parts as they wore out at or beyond expected EOL. (I don’t think suspension bushings at 192K miles was premature)

    • liberranter
      August 1, 2013 at 11:29 pm

      Brent, I think that these two varieties of Clover (“old car” and “you’ll break your car”) are indeed related, and are usually one and the same person.

      My father was an example of the latter. Ever car he owned (always a large American-made sedan or station wagon) was under-driven, whether it was brand new, which was rare for him, or used (gently, or more commonly, not-so-gently). He was loath to travel over 55 MPH even when, in his later years, the posted limit allowed for 75. If he were alive driving today, he’d be run off the road.

      I’ll never forget the time he told me that I shouldn’t be driving my brand new 1985 Honda Civic at constant highway speeds of 65 MPH because “constantly going that rate of speed will wear out the engine.” I just looked at him in dumbfounded amazement, thinking “Dad, what kind of fucking cars did they build back in the 40s and 50s that were so fragile they required owners to not even think of pushing the limits of their construction?”

      Clearly Dad wasn’t a lone example, based on what I see on the roads today. Tellingly, however, those “you’ll break your car” Clovers that I do encounter tend to be elderly, meaning that those who are still on the road are about a decade younger than Dad was when he passed away.

      Scary.

      • Swamprat
        August 2, 2013 at 1:59 am

        I thought I was the only one here who had a clover relative. My oldest brother was a control freak. When I was about 3, he pulled me out of my parents 1967 Jaguar 420 telling me that I would ruin the car. Huh?? A few months later, he ran the car without engine oil on a trip into New York City. Cost like $1800 to fix the engine. That was big money in the late 1960’s. His other early sign of cloverism was in 1971, when he called our Jaguar a “gas guzzler” and later on that year, turned his 1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass S 400 for a 1971 Toyota Celica. When I first saw the car, I stared with disbelief even at the age of 8. lol. He tended to drive on the slow side, but that didn’t bother me in 1972. The speed limits were still 70 mph in most states. In 1974, when the Nixon Administration signed the Emergency Highway Energy Conservation Act, known as the 55 mph speed limit, he was very vocal in support of the new law.

        When I visited him in Texas in 1977, I was treated to his horrible driving skills at 55 mph on empty roads. In 1980, we took a trip to Vermont at exactly 55 mph in the rental car. He droned on about the advantages of driving slowly to avoid collisions. In 1982, I got to drive with him from CT to TX in an 81 Tercel at exactly 55 mph the entire trip, except for when I drove. He rattled on about how much gas he was saving and the fact that lives were saved with 55 mph as well. It wasn’t until his wife to be got a speeding ticket in 1985 that he started to relent just a little on the speed limit issue.

        I visited him about 10 years later in 1996. Texas had just raised its speed limit to 70 mph. I was in the car with him when he set the cruise control at 55 mph on a 70 mph highway. It literally scared the crap out of me. After the trip, I told him that I would never ride with him again.

        I think I saw him once after that. Never rode with him.

        • Eightsouthman
          August 2, 2013 at 2:30 am

          Swamprat, I was headed down I-20 last year and this guy in a new GMC diesel pickup pulling a car hauler with another new GMC diesel(two for one I guess)on it passes me like I’m tied down. I see him almost lose the whole thing, go all over the road and finally gather it back up and keep on. I saw it was one of those old Pontiac 6000’s going maybe 45. It was about 3/4M in front of me and I got involved with other traffic and forgot about the car. All of a sudden I realize I’m about to run over that same car and I barely missed it. I wondered how many other people nearly wrecked from that invisible driver(tiny old woman). Made me pay attention after that. That’s what every survey involving speed I’ve seen says, no matter what the speed, as long as everyone is driving the same speed, 80mph or 60 mph, everything rocks along smoothly until someone is going too slow.

          • BrentP
            August 2, 2013 at 4:45 am

            Pontiac 6000? I thought those were extinct. Maybe only in the harsher environments.

            • August 2, 2013 at 10:20 am

              I haven’t seen one in probably 15 years!

          • Eightsouthman
            August 2, 2013 at 4:53 am

            Brent, I was surprised to see it too. It was the top “sport” model of that car and had been white at one time, probably looked really good…at some point. I guess they were decent cars. Funny, it’s the second one I’ve seen someone in their 90’s driving.

          • GW
            August 2, 2013 at 10:56 am

            “Invisible Driver…tiny old woman”
            We call them Q-Tips down here in Flori-duh…because all you ever see is the white hair barely sticking up above the seat…

          • joeallen
            August 2, 2013 at 11:37 pm

            This gets me going. In 1975 I bought my first decent car, a Rambler 770Classic with 232 and auto. 2 friends and I take a trip from Indy to Orchard Beach park in northern Mich. for the weekend. On Sunday coming back driving south on a 4 lane divided highway, coming around a 70 degree bend. I’m in the fast lane doing 70 coming out of the curve and I see a car which had to still be in 1st gear directly in front of me. I swerve to the right, no time to look before doing so. I was in front of a 10 car convoy, one of which was hauling a boat, all behind me in the fast lane. As I go past the “car” I see an antique old man, surrounded by cobwebs, hunched over the steering wheel. An equally old woman with equal amounts of cobwebs was sitting next to him. I’ll never figured out how the boat survived but my friends looked back and said he nearly lost it several times.

            I guess what I saw was clover’s 5X times great grandfather and grandmother. Completely oblivious to the mayhem occurring around them. I met his equal here in Australia on a rural road near home 2 years ago. But that’s another story.

        • August 2, 2013 at 10:51 am

          Clovers abound…

          In fact, you’ve reminded me of another type – the Unconscious Clover. This is the Clover who doesn’t realize he is a Clover.

          They’re not deliberate assholes. They just don’t know how to drive – nor realize how poor their driving is!

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 2, 2013 at 10:55 am

            Probably even worse Eric, the Fully Admitted Clover. This one could be anyone’s mother/grandmother that fully admits they’re crap drivers, but continue to be.

          • Bobbye
            August 2, 2013 at 4:56 pm

            According to my family, I’m a pretty shitty driver. I’ve been known to run stop signs and lights. What lights? you really didn’t see that? NO. I’ve turned onto a one-way street the wrong way more than once. And I’m not drunk either. That said I don’t consider myself a clover. I thought a clover was someone who behaves the way they do because they are trying to obey the 480,000 rules that weigh them down. That’s not me. I’m just a poor driver sometimes. Can’t play basketball either.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 2, 2013 at 5:12 pm

            Bobbye, Back in the dark ages the first time I drove in downtown Odessa we were on our way camping in the Big Bend and wanted to stop at a specific store for something, had the address. I’m driving down the street looking at signs identifying the businesses when my sister and cousin asked if I always blew through red lights. Huh? They had these little pipes on the corners back into the sidewalk with really old, dim bulbs and lenses so you didn’t even notice them. I drive with my eyes sweeping back and forth so in Abilene where they all of a sudden change a street from two way to one way I would turn onto one where it changed and never see the tiny sign that was oblique to my direction. Guess it wasn’t just me since they finally put up big signs and one in the center of the intersection too. Stop signs? Not if I don’t have to.

          • August 3, 2013 at 3:03 am

            Dear Eric,

            I thought the term “clover” was more narrowly defined.

            I thought it was limited to sanctimonious, self-appointed, wannabe LEOs with a “Them’s the rules, therefore I’m not going to let you get away with flouting them” attitude.

            I didn’t know it was being broadened to include oblivious drivers who unwittingly create problems, but who aren’t crusaders who try to force others to do things their way.

            How the term eventually gets defined is not a major issue for me. But I do think that expanding the definition to this extent may be counterproductive.

            • August 3, 2013 at 11:26 am

              Hi Bevin!

              “I thought it was limited to sanctimonious, self-appointed, wannabe LEOs with a “Them’s the rules, therefore I’m not going to let you get away with flouting them” attitude.

              I didn’t know it was being broadened to include oblivious drivers who unwittingly create problems, but who aren’t crusaders who try to force others to do things their way. ”

              Italics added.

              And there’s the rub!

              The common thread is the expectation – no, the demand – that others defer to them. Your time doesn’t matter. You can slow down…for me! This is the raw root of everything Clover. The narcissism – and the implied violence behind it.

          • Mithrandir
            August 3, 2013 at 3:18 am

            Bevin,

            My experience with clover here is that a clover is a:
            know nothing, general jerk, sanctimonious, authority loving & obeying, unprincipled, busy body
            individual.

            They may think they know what is right for everyone and get angry if others disagree. On top of that, they have no problems using violence to get others to obey their rules.

          • August 4, 2013 at 1:50 am

            Dear Eric, Mith,

            Eric wrote,
            “… the demand – that others defer to them.”

            Mith wrote,
            “… they have no problems using violence to get others to obey their rules.”

            I think this is the defining criterion.

            Dumb drivers who are apologetic when it is pointed out that they inconvenienced or even endangered others can be irritating, infuriating, even dangerous. But they are not “clovers” in my book.

            Clovers, in my book, are those who instead of being apologetic, act self-righteous, and blame you, their victim.

            • August 4, 2013 at 10:20 am

              Morning, Bevin!

              Just yesterday, the wife and I were making a run down the Parkway to town, to get some stuff at Lowes. We roll up on a guy in a Chevy Aveo doing 30-35-ish (speed limit is 45). When we get to one of the few remaining legal passing zones, I begin to attempt a pass. What does he do? He rocks up to 75 MPH! I had to exceed 80 to pass this Clover!

          • DownshiftFast5to1
            August 4, 2013 at 1:59 am

            The key trait of a Clover: “crusaders who try to force others to do things their way. ”

            Comments from Clovers expressing this jump out at me anymore.

            I was reading the comments about the 85 year old woman who got busted selling prescription pain medication, there was a guy on there who thought she was such a menace they should throw the book at her. Then he goes on to say everyone who thinks that’s wrong should be thrown in jail too.

            How’s that for Cloveresque?

          • August 4, 2013 at 2:05 am

            Dear 5to1,

            You nailed it.

            That’s definitely “cloveresque,” “cloverian,” or “cloverite,” as the case may be!

          • August 5, 2013 at 12:09 am

            Dear Eric,

            Bingo!

            The ass clown who deliberately attempts to prevent you from passing is a clear and unambiguous clover.

            The moment they speed up to prevent you from driving faster, they totally discredit their own clover crusade. After all, if “speeding” is intolerable because it “endangers others” then why the hell are they doing it?

            They are without a doubt the most contemptible road users around, not counting the cops, of course.

            As Larken Rose astutely notes,

            … adult authoritarians are constantly told that one should not “take the law into
            his own hands.” These people are trained to call “the authorities” whenever there is a
            conflict or other problem, and then meekly do whatever the “government” enforcers tell
            them to do. If there is any dispute between people, these people are told that they should
            always run to the masters, whether by calling the “police” or by going to authoritarian
            “courts” to settle disagreements.

            The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose PDF
            http://www.google.com.tw/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freeyourmindaz.com%2Fuploads%2F1%2F2%2F8%2F3%2F12830241%2Fthe-most-dangerous-superstition-larken-rose-2011.pdf&ei=cej-UfmsJMKAkQXV_oGIAg&usg=AFQjCNGpnKFciRL3XJ4Xovgz0rrUMUDbIw&sig2=Mxcmqh4RrmO_ALysfZ9eWQ

            These “adult authoritarians” are of course, clovers. But what do they do? They “take the law into their own hands.” Clovers denounce “vigilante justice.” They consider it a violation of clover conformity and a failure to “obey the rules.” But as we know all too well, they themselves cannot resist their own contrary impulses.

            • August 5, 2013 at 10:08 am

              The Eternal Question:

              Why?

              Why did that guy have to try to prevent me from passing? He was so determined to do so he literally came close to doing twice the posted speed limit.

              I had not been tailgating him. I did, however, roll up on him at a good clip – because there was huge initial disparity in our respective speeds. He was driving about 10 MPH below the speed limit, I about 5 over. But I never rode his ass. I just don’t do that. I kept 2-3 car lengths back at all times. But when he saw me begin my pass, he immediately increased his speed – dramatically.

              This is a common thing for Clovers to do. Symptomatic, more precisely speaking. It’s not enough for them to drive “x” speed. They insist everyone else drive “x” speed as well.

              In Russia, these Clovers risk a wood shampoo – or worse. Not from the cops – but from the people they torment.

              Perhaps that’s the only effective medicine…

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 5, 2013 at 12:30 pm

            Ah yes. I’ve met that one a few times Eric. They’re complete imbeciles trying to ensure you suffer at their hands, narcissistic ex-school bullies with nobody to beat up but their better halves and children. In their cars these mental midgets own the road and deserve a bucket of lit petrol thrown over it at the next intersection. That should make ‘em think.

            Some years ago I was in the freeway fast lane, approaching some sheila passing – ever so slowly – someone else on an empty freeway. I got about 50 metres away from her, and she spikes the brakes.

            I’m not sure if she was short-sighted or, as with most women, didn’t have a good sense of spacial awareness, but she did it a few more times for good measure. Maybe she don’t like guys creeping up to her from behind? Dunno. But that’s one bedtime position her boyfriend (if any) might have problems with.

            I eventually got past her, but she was mouthing something at me through closed windows. Bit of a psycho like my ex.

            Since then, I added a window washer bottle to the back of my car filled with brake fluid with button on the dash. Haven’t had to use it yet. If you want to add one, make sure you run the squirter underneath the bumper to ensure it don’t get on YOUR car.

            A friend of mine used to have a spray can of paint zip-tied to either side of his bike so when he finally got to pass morons that try and kill him, he leans over and sprays a line along the full length of the car as he goes. Neat. That’s what got me thinking about the washer bottle.

            I want to add a squirter to the left side of my car, for the endless supply of roadside mobile speed cams we have here. Best place would be low left-rear.

          • Jean
            August 5, 2013 at 2:57 pm

            RE: eric @ August 5, 2013 at 10:08 am

            Yeah – shunning used to be a VERY big deal. Now that there’s no real “society” any more, no one gives a flying —-.

            But making things hurt again? THAT would be effective.

        • Question
          August 3, 2013 at 6:48 am

          You only saw your own brother a handful of times in the space of decades? Not a close family huh?

      • David Ward
        August 2, 2013 at 9:32 pm

        A subset of the “You’ll break your car” group is the “I have a truck/suv but i’m going to stop in traffic to turn into a parking lot cause the height of the paved surfaces are different!” A-Holes.

        • BrentP
          August 3, 2013 at 2:13 am

          Have those at rail road crossings here. Crossings I can take in a lowered mustang at the PSL they have to damn near come to a stop for in their SUVs.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 2:42 am

            Brent, a few years ago. My nephew says his Yukon is evil, is all over the road(his wife’s “car”)so he buys new shoes, ungodly price since they’re 22″ and the vehicle came with 16″‘s. So it still handles bad(front end shot from huge wheels and tires, but don’t try to tell him about geometry, learned that in school he did). So he trades it on an Escalade, a really righteous deal according to him. I’m looking at the Caddy and say “Well, at least it has the 20’s on it, should be ok for hundreds of thousands of miles”. I should have kept my mouth shut. He trips, Oh shit, those new skins and 22’s are still on the Yukon” so he calls the salesman, tells him he wants the 22’s. Next time I see it, all duded up with those 22’s and 12″ wide Pirelli’s. Gee, think that Escalade will do the same thing the Yukon did? Of course it never occurred to him the wheels and tires were the problem, nothing I said registered on him. And once more I get to thinking how you can buy a vehicle that comes with 16″ wheels but can get it with 20″ wheels. So how does that work for you? Odessa and Midland are littered with SUV’s on the highways and byways with ruined tires cause everybody has to have wheels and rubber never meant for those vehicles. A fool and his money are soon parted.

          • Mithrandir
            August 3, 2013 at 3:12 am

            Eightsouthman,

            I never understood the larger rims (generally over 18″) and super low profile tires (under 40).

            Very few cars are designed to operate with larger wheels and lower profile tires.

            Even fewer cars can benefit from the larger wheels and lower profile tires.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 3, 2013 at 3:27 am

            Hi Mith. Often what lower profile tyres are meant to achieve is better handling in corners but the larger the rims, the lower the profile (and more expensive) the tyre needs to be.

            Standard tyres on 16″ rims are fairly compliant with road surfaces due to the higher sidewall allowing them to soak up the bumps. Lower profile tyres often need to be run at higher pressures, making them stiffer which many don’t understand and often run them under inflated, causing handling probs.

            The stiffer low profiles are often more uncomfortable and work the suspension harder and, depending on the wheel camber, will often get something called “road-steer” if pressures are too low.

            On my car (NX Pulsar) I went from 16″ to 18″. I wanted 17″ but they make very few aftermarket rims of this size and were therefore more expensive. Due to the lowered sport suspension I put on, the camber is quite large and a few PSI lower than 36 at the front will suddenly encourage plenty of road-steer.

            It’s only a small car but it’s so light in the back (front wheel drive) that the rear is set at 27 PSI.

          • BrentP
            August 3, 2013 at 3:48 am

            Mith, Besides the handling benefits which most people don’t use, the idea is to clear bigger brakes which most people don’t have. I see cars that came from the factory with big wheels or had aftermarket big wheels put on them and then tiny brakes. It even looks stupid.

            My older mustang has 17″ wheels and my newer one has 19″. Both clear big brakes (in the front) My cars without big brakes have 14″ and 15″ wheels.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 3:57 am

            Mith, it’s common for people who have cars they drive on the track as well as the street to have two sets of wheel/tire combos, a big set for street and pics, another smaller wheel size with performance tires for track use. Big wheels are heavy and as such, eat HP, make braking more difficult and just add to unsprung weight, the bane of performance. Some cars are designed with a very low profile wheel/tire combo but it must be part of the overall package and not an add-on. I’ll be the first to change a wheel/tire combo for a ‘plus one’ set up, an inch bigger wheel, a smaller profile tire but only if it’s going to benefit handling. Not often does going to a larger combo benefit fuel mileage. You see big pickups with really large wheels and tires now but that’s not necessarily a plus for mileage or weight carrying. It’s not anything more than just looks for 1/2 ton pickups for the most part. 20″ factory wheels on a pickup just detract from it’s purpose. Go over that bad ground and carry a heavy load and I’ll just muddle on through with my 16’s and eat up the rough stuff you are ruining tires and wheels on. It’s the worst thing to happen to vehicles and people’s pocketbooks….for the most part.

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 4:06 am

            Rev, Mith, you’re both right but improved brakes don’t have to be larger in height. Go from 2 piston to 4 piston or even 6 piston calipers and get the big brake upgrade without having to be larger in diameter. We got away from that because everybody went ape over huge “rims”(what the hell ever that means) and tires to fit. Form follows function.

          • Mithrandir
            August 3, 2013 at 5:18 am

            Thanks for the explanations re: big rims / low profile tires. They do not meet my needs, would look bad on my vehicles, and lighten my bank account. I will avoid that setup as much as is practical.

          • ЯΞ√ΩLUT↑☼N
            August 3, 2013 at 5:23 am

            My standard front discs/brakes are small and work really well but fade within seconds. I need to change to cross-drilled discs so the gas buildup under the pads can escape.

          • BrentP
            August 3, 2013 at 5:23 am

            My older mustang I upgraded the front brakes to four piston brembos. The wheel size is the stock size but I changed to ’98 cobra rims to clear the calipers. It was all in the spoke design to clear the calipers. Basically I filled as much of the interior volume of the stock wheel size as possible with brakes. I wanted to keep the stock size and it took some effort on my part to do so.

            Ford Racing said I had to go to 18″, but I got the measurements from brembo then found a ’98 cobra on a dealer lot and just went up to it and measured the wheel spoke clearance to the rotor. Salesman asked me if I needed something and I said I just needed to measure the wheels to make sure they’d work for my plans on my car and he left me alone. Once convinced everything measured out I ordered everything I needed from a couple sources.

            • August 3, 2013 at 11:15 am

              I’d like to be able to put a decent set of performance tires on my ’76 TA, but I cannot do so without also giving up my stock Honeycomb wheels – which (to me) are a key styling element that adds considerably to the car’s uniqueness as no other GM cars (or other MFGRs’ cars) have anything like them.

              Problem is, they’re 15×7. And the best you can get for 15×7 wheels is a general purpose radial like the BFG Radial T/A. It’s an ok tire, but not a performance tire.

              I’m amazed no one (Coker, for instance) is making a performance tire to fit stock ’70s and ’80s-era 15×7 rims. I would think there’s a potentially large market – people like me who own an older muscle car who want performance tires, but want to keep the factory wheels.

              There is a company that makes an 18-inch aluminum version of the Pontiac Honeycomb (and Snowflake) wheel, but they’re obviously not stock and (to me) don’t look right.

              I’d much rather have something like the old Goodyear Eagle GT – or the BFG Radial T/A H.

              …still waiting….

          • Eightsouthman
            August 3, 2013 at 12:47 pm

            eric, my buddy with the 79 TA has those wheels with an old flat set of BFG T/A’s on it. He always lamented not being able to get the original T/A’s made from “live” rubber so he says. They were good tires, a notch above GT’s as far as long life and staying in balance. GT’s had good grip while they lasted.

            • August 3, 2013 at 5:22 pm

              Back in the ’80s, BF Goodrich made an H (130 MPH) rated version of the Radial T/A. It had “H” callouts – e.g., “BF Goodrich Radial T/A 60H.” They stopped making them I’m not sure when, but it’s been years ago.

              Ditto the Goodyear Eagle GT in 15 inch sizes.

          • BrentP
            August 3, 2013 at 5:53 pm

            I found I last bought tires for my Mav in 2002. They were $40 each.
            205/70HR-14 Sumitomo HTR 200

            H rated. Now the cheapest option on tirerack is:
            Kumho Solus KR21 with a T speed rating at $66. Touring all season.

        • DownshiftFast5to1
          August 3, 2013 at 3:27 am

          I’m not sure these two are clover behaviors either:

          “stop in traffic to turn into a parking lot cause the height of the paved surfaces are different!”

          “at rail road crossings”

          Heck, I practically stop for speed bumps – and go slow over them – to save my wheel bearings. SUV/4×4 ain’t got nothing to do with it. Imho.

          I’ll drive a beater I care nothing about very fast over some rough and tumble railroad crossings, and I’ll make the back bumper on a car spark off the pavement when going off the street and up a grade into a steep slope of a parking lot. No problem. … But if I want something to last and I care about the car, I’ll take it easy.

      • phil
        August 3, 2013 at 4:53 pm

        “Dad, what kind of fucking cars did they build back in the 40s and 50s that were so fragile they required owners to not even think of pushing the limits of their construction?”

        Many cars built in the prehighway era had gearing that supported about 45mph over long periods. Past that and you really were wearing the engine excessively, due to the high RPM required to maintain the speed.

        I own one car from the era you mentioned. I have done 60mph in it, I had to double the RPM over what is was at 45 to maintain that extra 15mph.

        • BrentP
          August 3, 2013 at 5:12 pm

          The lubrication was rather poor back then.

          I doubt the gearing was any worse rpm at highway speed than the typical FWD four cylinder car. Such cars have final drive ratios that result in rather high engine rpm at highway speeds. Cars of the 40s and 50s era would have a 1:1 top gear and mild final drive ratio. Which was retained clear through the 1970s on many cars.

          The difference in rpm for 45 vs. 60 in top gear is one third more. There’s no mechanical way it can double unless there is a slipping clutch of some sort in there somewhere.

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